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Author Topic: 4-player adapter? // MultiPlay MX4 Expansion  (Read 20683 times)

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Offline TFM

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Re: 4-player adapter?
« Reply #200 on: 17:58, 28 January 16 »
Which prompts the question: is it not possible to use an Amiga mouse on the CPC joystick port, either directly with a clever software or through an adapter of some sort?


Of course! And they work very well, which can be seen with the great G-Paint and FutureOS. You just need a little adapter. See here:
Atari-ST mouse adapter - CPCWiki
TFM of FutureSoft
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Offline khaz

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Re: 4-player adapter?
« Reply #201 on: 20:09, 29 January 16 »
+5V is the one thing missing from the CPC controller port it seems. Was it shown that the Atari / Amiga mice really need it? Otherwise I would think you don't even need an adapter, you only need to tell the software how to interpret each pin (which is up, down, etc.) I don't have much knowledge in hardware controllers, but it's my assumption that a button is detected by grounding the relevant pin, and a scrolling mouse would be no different.

TFM, you are quite responsive regarding the inclusion of new technologies and standards into your OS, I wonder why no one else included support for such an adapter, or even "mass-produced" one (or am I missing it?), when the stupidly simple schematics were published in 1988?

Offline Munchausen

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Re: 4-player adapter?
« Reply #202 on: 22:14, 29 January 16 »
So the amiga mouse uses a quadrature encoding (like bus mice, acorn etc). But the CPC mouse is normally just up/down/left/right?

So how does this work without software support? Because this encoding is quite different (you can be going up and down at the same time for one thing)...

And how is it any better at giving proportional control? Speed measurement is still reliant on measuring the frequency and/or period of the signals.

Or does the normal CPC mouse just, e.g. set the Up pin to one when you are moving upwards and leave it there until you stop moving upwards like a joystick (i.e. instead of toggling at a rate dependent on movement speed)?

And doesn't this mean we could make an alternative firmware for Bryce's mouse adapter that supports proportional movement?
« Last Edit: 22:16, 29 January 16 by Munchausen »

Online TotO

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Re: 4-player adapter?
« Reply #203 on: 22:20, 29 January 16 »
@khaz, those simple schematic adapters not allow make the ST or Amiga mice working without external 5V PSU.
By the way, that require from each software to read many times per frame the X/Y mouse status to move enough faster.
So... Understand that is not a magical solution. :)
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Offline khaz

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Re: 4-player adapter?
« Reply #204 on: 23:23, 29 January 16 »
Oh I'm sure it isn't, otherwise it would have been used ;)

I'm curious about how your board deals with it now :)

Offline TFM

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Re: 4-player adapter?
« Reply #205 on: 00:09, 30 January 16 »
+5V is the one thing missing from the CPC controller port it seems. Was it shown that the Atari / Amiga mice really need it? Otherwise I would think you don't even need an adapter, you only need to tell the software how to interpret each pin (which is up, down, etc.) I don't have much knowledge in hardware controllers, but it's my assumption that a button is detected by grounding the relevant pin, and a scrolling mouse would be no different.

TFM, you are quite responsive regarding the inclusion of new technologies and standards into your OS, I wonder why no one else included support for such an adapter, or even "mass-produced" one (or am I missing it?), when the stupidly simple schematics were published in 1988?


Well, TotO is the expert... here only what I know for sure.
Yes, the mouse do need the 5 Volt, one can use a battery of use the 5 Volt of the CPC.
The button (Fire 3) is grounded to show the software that the mouse adapter is there. Actually there is noe need to ground it. But it allows to quick check if the mouse adapter is there or not.


The G-Paint is really great, same level as OCP art studio and with the proportional mouse ONE CAN REALLY PAINT.  :) :) :)


Thank you!  :)
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Offline TFM

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Re: 4-player adapter?
« Reply #206 on: 00:16, 30 January 16 »
@khaz, those simple schematic adapters not allow make the ST or Amiga mice working without external 5V PSU.
By the way, that require from each software to read many times per frame the X/Y mouse status to move enough faster.
So... Understand that is not a magical solution. :)

I like its magic a lot.  :)  Using the interrupt you get 300 Mickeys and that's enough, because the mouse provides dX and dY values. As long as the user is not making a mouse race over the table it works like a charm.

Well, I do agree, can't understand either why only few software is using it, maybe because it was published in a German Magazine and it didn't become international quick enough. Later on there was the SF2 with its PS/2 mouse adapter. Of course a mouse adapter for 2-3 Euros is a good thing. but usually people doing software only support 'off the shelf' stuff, means cursor keys and digital joystick. What a pity.
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Offline Munchausen

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Re: 4-player adapter?
« Reply #207 on: 00:27, 30 January 16 »
By the way, that require from each software to read many times per frame the X/Y mouse status to move enough faster.

So you do need to specific software support (that looks at the frequency/period of the signals and figures out direction?)

Offline TFM

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Re: 4-player adapter?
« Reply #208 on: 00:32, 30 January 16 »
If somebody wants to support the mouse, I can provide a driver, which works very well when called every interrupt.  :)
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Offline Munchausen

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Re: 4-player adapter?
« Reply #209 on: 21:06, 30 January 16 »
BTW, these optical mice can be modified to give a direct quadrature (amiga/acorn etc proportional) output. I've got a couple for my acorns. You just need some wire, the right connector and a soldering iron.

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Re: 4-player adapter?
« Reply #210 on: 22:04, 30 January 16 »
Exactly. The Internal IC allow to support USB/PS2 and Quadrature configurations. :)
« Last Edit: 22:20, 30 January 16 by TotO »
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Offline 1024MAK

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Re: 4-player adapter?
« Reply #211 on: 23:50, 30 January 16 »
+5V is the one thing missing from the CPC controller port it seems. Was it shown that the Atari / Amiga mice really need it? Otherwise I would think you don't even need an adapter, you only need to tell the software how to interpret each pin (which is up, down, etc.) I don't have much knowledge in hardware controllers, but it's my assumption that a button is detected by grounding the relevant pin, and a scrolling mouse would be no different.

The Atari and Amiga mice (along with Acorn mice and a small number of mice for other machines), plus the mice for most of the Amstrad CPC and ZX Spectrum mouse interfaces are all what are usually called "bus" mice.
All good quality mice require a low voltage power supply (normally 5V DC), as the IR LEDs and the active circuitry need the power in order to detect the rotation of the wheels (ball types), or to shine a LED onto the surface and a detector chip to workout the movement (ball less types).

Most bus mice have active logic outputs on the four direction movement outputs (XA, XB, YA, YB). The two (or three) buttons are normally simple microswitches (or similar).

Because the CPC joystick connector does not have a +5V supply, or a 0V (ground) pin, an independent power supply or battery is required, along with the diodes. So an adaptor is always required if using the CPC joystick port.

The CPC joystick connector uses a switched select signal for the common (pin 8 ). Joysticks don't care, as they are just switches.

Mark
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Re: 4-player adapter?
« Reply #212 on: 22:39, 31 January 16 »
+5V is the one thing missing from the CPC controller port it seems. Was it shown that the Atari / Amiga mice really need it? Otherwise I would think you don't even need an adapter, you only need to tell the software how to interpret each pin (which is up, down, etc.) I don't have much knowledge in hardware controllers, but it's my assumption that a button is detected by grounding the relevant pin, and a scrolling mouse would be no different.

TFM, you are quite responsive regarding the inclusion of new technologies and standards into your OS, I wonder why no one else included support for such an adapter, or even "mass-produced" one (or am I missing it?), when the stupidly simple schematics were published in 1988?

Actually the CPC joystick port doesn't contain a ground pin either :(

Bryce.

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Re: 4-player adapter? // MultiPlay MX4 Expansion
« Reply #213 on: 20:44, 16 May 16 »