Amstrad CPC Expansion Port Raiser with multiple edge connectors, any interest?

Started by ikonsgr, 22:35, 02 July 18

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LambdaMikel

Any how, I don't think it is fair to @Ikonsgr to hijack this thread like this and make it off topic.


LambdaMikel

Another example of me "ripping of CPC community members badly" is this one:

https://www.sellmyretro.com/offer/details/lambdaspeak-speech-synthesizer-kit--_-for-all-cpc-models-32330

But then, is it really?
Consider the click! board is 40 $ already, it is modified by me, free postage from the US ( ~ 14 $ mostly) is included, the MCU Atmegea 644 I am buying myself for 10 $.... hmm. So how much money is left for PCB and all the other components? That's right, VERY little.

Michael

TotO

I don't speak about your Speach Syntheziser project as the price was decreased by the help or Bryce to optimize it.
I have said into the past that it was nice but may be the parts are not the best choice except for a personnal project.

About your adapters boards, is not because it is on Guihub, that excuse you to make money on the community instead of offering your time like others. They are only wiring and connectors, no more than MotherX4.
35$ - 12$ shipping = 23$ for around 3$ PCB including parts.
50$ - 12$ shipping = 38$ for around 8$ PCB including parts.

For this price you can bought a M4 board in example. And if Duke put his schematic on Guihub, that will not make it more expensive.
The same for me and the Playcity I have probably sold to you for 24.90€ + 4.90€ shipping.

- PCB = 1.7$
- CTC = 5.90$
- YMZ x2 = 14$
- 3x Tulip Sockets = 1.5$
- Resistors = 0.60$
- Capacitor = 0.20$
- Decoupling capacitors = 0.15$
- Sliding switch = 0.50$
- MX4 connector = 0.80$
TOTAL = 25,25$ = 22€

So, do not confuse "protecting a design to keep a good price" and trying to sell high because the design is free for DIY.
CPC is not a business place... The community is little don't require that at all.

I don't said to not sell your boards, but inform peoples that it should be more attractive if your work is not for business.
"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

LambdaMikel

Quote from: TotO on 18:24, 11 July 18
I don't said to not sell your boards, but inform peoples that it should be more attractive if your work is not for business.

Thanks for the advice.

Unfortunately, I don't see any CPC business on my side so far, really

Maybe I tried getting some cash for, say, funding future hardware development equipment and also for "return of investment". See, when I started with ATMega and CPLD for CPC a year ago, I did not have any equipment - I needed to purchase the Xilinx USB programmers, the AVR programmers, I got an oscilloscope and even an - used old - logic analyzer. So maybe I spent about 500 $ to get started. And maybe I though it would be nice to being able to sell some self-made DIY electronics for the CPC for a little bit of extra money to fund this, yes. But so far, it is only expenses, really. I need to develop a more successful product in order to get into the "black" numbers :laugh:

One really has to consider opportunity cost a bit with these things. It takes easily hundreds of hours to develop a board such as LambdaSpeak. All that time I could be working at McDonalds, walk the dog, or do other useful things. So we all do this LARGELY because we are CPC fanatics and LOVE that old machine. Otherwise it would be completely irrational to spend so much time. I disagree, it is not largely for business. It is for self improvement, learning, DIY, having fun making something, maybe for sharing your enthusiasm for the CPC with others and the community, etc. From a business perspective, that time would be MUCH better spent working at McDonalds  :laugh:



LambdaMikel

Quote from: TotO on 18:24, 11 July 18
About your adapters boards, is not because it is on Guihub, that excuse you to make money on the community instead of offering your time like others. They are only wiring and connectors, no more than MotherX4.

I offered my time by making and developing it. And I did that largely for myself, yes.

I still consider selling the adapters for a SLIGHTLY higher than necessary price as COMMUNITY SERVICE because that's what it is. Not everybody can solder one. And I actually don't enjoy soldering that much. For the minimal financial plus / revenue that I am getting from selling an adapter board and the required time for soldering it, this time is, from a "business perspective", much better spent working at McDonalds, OR for walking the dog (from a cost / pleasure  opportunity point of view).

Overall, I have sold maybe 3 adapters btw, and 2 LambdaBoards. So I guess people either have their own solutions anyway, or consider it too expensive. This is actually good if they then consider to make their own - DIY. The less time I have to spend with the soldering iron, the better  ;)  Maybe the price is kept a bit higher also for this reason, to actually discourage people to buy it... and DIY. For those who really can't do it themselves, I offer to help, but I want to be reimbursed for my miserable time with the iron. Not sure that all makes sense, but not everything is rational. 

TotO

Quote from: LambdaMikelThanks for the advice. Unfortunately, I don't see any CPC business on my side so far, reallyMaybe I tried getting some cash for, say, funding future hardware development equipment and also for "return of investment".
Sorry, but peoples don't have to fund your hardware for next projects that is not what they bought... It is our hobby or it is not. If it was the case, so we have to pay guys for CPC demo, softwares and games because they have hardware to bought to do the development. :laugh:

Quote from: LambdaMikelI offered my time by making and developing it. And I did that largely for myself, yes.

"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

LambdaMikel

Quote from: TotO on 18:24, 11 July 18
I have said into the past that it was nice but may be the parts are not the best choice except for a personnal project.


See, I admire your work, but this was / is a personal DIY self learning / self improvement project, so I don't actually care that much what people think of it. There is always somebody better... (i.e., I am not comparing my work the work of your, Bryce, or Duke). I am only trying to have some fun and learn something and maybe don't try to get too much into the red numbers because of all the hardware stuff that I am buying for my (new electronics) hobby. 

LambdaMikel

 :laugh:  One Like for the nice pic - you saved my day.


I see your point though, thanks for sharing your perspective and the great products and support you have been given to the CPC community!  :)

TotO

I'm not criticizing your work, because it is nice to offer new and alternative hardware like your original syntheziser projects.
Just that I have a problem with "easy money" as we see more and more peoples selling parts or interface needed by many peoples the price as complex expansions.

Now, don't care. I just can suggest you to add a key hole to your edge connector to allow all the old expansions to be plugged.

Quote from: LambdaMikel on 19:04, 11 July 18 :laugh:   One Like for the nice pic - you saved my day.

;D
"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

LambdaMikel

Quote from: TotO on 19:06, 11 July 18
Now, don't care. I just can suggest you to add a key hole to your edge connector to allow all the old expansions to be plugged.

;D


Sorry, didnt get that. What is a key hole?

TotO

The Edge connector "cut" that allow some expansions using a keying, to not fit if plugged in the wrong way.
"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

LambdaMikel

Understood, yes, that is a useful modification to the PCB edge!
(Otherwise one has to "pull" the keys from the edge connectors, I think I did that for DDI1 or so)

TotO

Yes, peoples should do that if possible. Just, when you will redo a design it is free to add that.  ;)
"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

LambdaMikel

Now I feel badly that we hijacked @ikonsgr  's thread.... we should have created a new thread fo r this off topic discussion.

TotO

Not too much I think... But sure, he his free to ask to split or delete de posts. Sorry.  :-\
"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

ikonsgr


Quote from: LambdaMikel on 16:10, 10 July 18
But then, who needs all that stuff on the CPC... most people are fine with playing their games.

Exactly my friend. And this is also my experience for selling useful stuff for amstrad cpc on ebay in the last 5-6 years. Most people just want to have FUN with their amstrad! ;-)

Quote from: LambdaMikel on 16:10, 10 July 18
CPC hardware development is *mostly* a hobby and occupation for the hardware designers themselves I believe.  Certainly one can't retire early from that. I think, with the exception of boards such as M4 and XMem and DDI3, if one can sell a dozen or so then this is already maxed out. But then, CPC hardware development is really mostly about the fun of "making" something IMHO. So I am largely doing this for myself, not for money or recognition or whatever other reason.
Again ,exactly my thoughts! I have spent literally many 100's of hours on the cpc serial port project over the last year or so, and in the process, i got involved with assembly programming (i even developed a code for fast read/write files byte by byte using firmware, because of this project!), DELPHI programming on the PC, PIC programming, basic programming on CPC, bought tested and learn to configure (using at commands) bluetooth modules, wifi modules, usb to serial interfaces, design the schematics and the pcb board for the circuit... 
Surely, my intention for doing all this, was not for... "exploiting the community!"  :)   As you said it,i did it  *mostly* as a hobby, a fun of "making" something, and in the end, sharing any knowledge and achievement with the community! BUT, having said that, i really don't find it unethical or in any way "exploitation" if i, you, or anyone who designed any kind of hardware for cpc ,offers this hardware for anyone wants to buy it, even with some profit for the designer!
You see my friend, (and this goes to TOTO too),  hardware is NOT the same as a virtual product like software, where someone spent time to design/make it ONCE, and then sell/share unlimited copies of it, without any extra effort! Hardware is something  PHYSICAL,  which, after initial design and making of, it needs EXTRA money for parts and EXTRA labor time to make, for EACH item you make! So,i find it completely irrelevant and unjust to compare the free distribution of games/demos to the community with that of hardware for cpc!
Giving free software as "community service" is effortless and "cost free", giving HARDWARE is NOT!
Of course i will agree that retro computer communities (especially amiga...) have frequently become a field of overpriced exploitation and "easy money maker" from people that usually have nothing to do with communities or love for home micros, but these people have NOTHING to do with LambdaMikel  or me or anyone who design, make  and sell some hardware,and not JUST RESELLING ready made hardware for profit! 
I confess that, when i first saw the price of the Speach Syntheziser for the cpc, it seemed a bit expensive, but after considering the cost of it (as LambdaMikel analyzed the costs in previous post) , i really can't see how a few dollars profit (which merely can cover the time and effort needed to make such a board..) can not  STILL considered as a TRULY "community service"! ::)

keith56

Quote from: LambdaMikel on 18:45, 11 July 18
I still consider selling the adapters for a SLIGHTLY higher than necessary price as COMMUNITY SERVICE because that's what it is. Not everybody can solder one. And I actually don't enjoy soldering that much. For the minimal financial plus / revenue that I am getting from selling an adapter board and the required time for soldering it, this time is, from a "business perspective", much better spent working at McDonalds, OR for walking the dog (from a cost / pleasure  opportunity point of view).
My Two Cents:
I think people are entitled to sell their hardware for whatever they want, provided they are honest about it... If someone started mass producing Neogeo->Cpc controller dongles that cost $2 and sold them for $200... well good luck to them! (I doubt they'd sell any though)... what I'd be unhappy with is if they claimed they were making a loss on them, or that was the least they could sell them for... on the contrary, if making money on your hardware means you can produce more in the future, or continue producing indefinitely, then go for it! (rather than a time limited small run)

I didn't buy a lamdaspeak, but the cost was not an issue... I just can't think of a case where I wanted my CPC (or my PC for that matter) to talk to me... If that was something I did want, and it was $180... I'd have bought it... and that's not to say I think 'Speech synthesis is pointless or dumb' or anything like that... I think it was a great achievement... Speech Synth is just not something that excites me enough to pursue.

Quote from: ikonsgr on 22:41, 11 July 18
Giving free software as "community service" is effortless and "cost free"
Developing software is only cost free if your time is worthless... I live in Japan, and my Japanese has got worse because I have prioritized 8 bit development over language study... now that's my choice, but it's a choice based on weighing up the expected 'gains' from spending time programming, VS studying or doing something else... If someone I met called me "a fool for wasting my time doing 8 bit development", I couldn't look them in the eye and tell them they were wrong.
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TotO

Quote from: ikonsgr on 22:41, 11 July 18You see my friend, (and this goes to TOTO too),  hardware is NOT the same as a virtual product like software, where someone spent time to design/make it ONCE, and then sell/share unlimited copies of it, without any extra effort! Hardware is something  PHYSICAL,  which, after initial design and making of, it needs EXTRA money for parts and EXTRA labor time to make, for EACH item you make! So,i find it completely irrelevant and unjust to compare the free distribution of games/demos to the community with that of hardware for cpc!
I don't agree and I think to be well placed to know about the subject.
Programming a game or a massive demo could took years... Designing a MotherX4-like board few hours. And 20mn to assemble it.
When a game is released, designing the physical copy took weeks and building each box versions 20mn too... To be sold the price of the used hardware, not extra cost to pay a new hardware to acheive the next project. As example Orion Prime or R-Type. Building hardware is not a god exception.
"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

ikonsgr

Quote from: TotO on 22:54, 11 July 18
Programming a game or a massive demo could took years...

Maybe, but after the INITIAL development, selling each copy of this game costs NOTHING at all (even if game is boxed and not downloadable, box/packing for each game cost almost nothing compared to the game price), it terms of time, labour or money! Don't you know that big game distributors for PC/PS3/PS4 etc, make for their million $ of expenses for a game, in just DAYS (or a few weeks at most), and after that, MILLIONS $ OF PROFIT is gained? Having said that, don't you think that software gives maybe the best potential for "Easy money" and exploitation of  time/labor?   ::)
(btw, i was working in industry for quite some years as a computer developer/ programmer and I.T. stuff, so i know "First hand" about the difficulties of making software, but this doesn't change the FACT about software i note you above)

Quote from: TotO on 22:54, 11 July 18
Designing a MotherX4-like board few hours. And 20mn to assemble it.

Also it takes money for the parts, and money/time for shipping too. A game that is offered through a web page to download doesn't need any of this.
Quote from: TotO on 22:54, 11 July 18When a game is released, designing the physical copy took weeks and building each box versions 20mn too

Again, this applies ONLY ONCE. You DON'T "spent weeks for designing physical copy", for EACH COPY you sell! You just do it ONCE! Sell 10 copies, or 10 milllion copies ,your cost and expenses are THE SAME! btw, what you mean that you need "20mins for building each box versions"? You need 20mins for Packing each gamebox? What game is that and why need so much time?

In any case, this is NOT the case with HARDWARE! Building hardware needs parts and "20min to assemble" (and most probable extra time for testing,as i always do, with the stuff i make) for EACH board you sell!

Frankly,i can't understand how and why you argue with such undeniable objective fact....

ikonsgr

Quote from: keith56 on 22:51, 11 July 18
Developing software is only cost free if your time is worthless... I live in Japan, and my Japanese has got worse because I have prioritized 8 bit development over language study... now that's my choice, but it's a choice based on weighing up the expected 'gains' from spending time programming, VS studying or doing something else... If someone I met called me "a fool for wasting my time doing 8 bit development", I couldn't look them in the eye and tell them they were wrong.

Ι think you misinterpret what i wrote. When i wrote "Giving free software as "community service" is effortless and "cost free", i meant the distribution of this software to the community is effortless and "cost free" , NOT the development of it, which of course is something that might need much time and effort.

ikonsgr


Quote from: LambdaMikel on 18:45, 11 July 18
Overall, I have sold maybe 3 adapters btw, and 2 LambdaBoards. So I guess people either have their own solutions anyway, or consider it too expensive.


On that subject, and having some experience with making and selling dozens of things for retro computers on ebay the last 5-6 years,i could tell you this:
Commercial success of anything,is based mostly on the combination of two things: PRICE AND USEFULNESS!
  In the past, i made a couple of things that, although cost me a lot of time and money to make them, they didn't sell  at all,where other items that were easy to design and make, sell very well!
For example, the usb joystick/gamepad adapter for 9pin game port, didn't sell at all, (until i forced to sell it with loss...). The fact that demand for such adapters is not big (not many old school lovers have modern usb gamepads/joysticks that want to use them with their amiga's ,c64, cpc's...  ), combined with the relatively high cost (~30 euros including postage) of the adapter, ruined any sales potential.
On the other hand, an adapter that converts an AMIGA 500 external drive to internal (in order to boot form external drive,amiga 500 normally doesn't support this), took me a few hours to design and sells dozens each month. Obviously there was a rather big demand for such adapter, but also the low price (~10 euros) boost sales a lot. 
So, in 2 words, in order to have commercial success with any of your project, first you must design something that relatively many people, might want it, and maybe most importantly, sell it at the lowest price you can! (mind also that selling at prices of more than 20$-25$ reduce a lot the potential selling rates, unless the item is something really needed by a lot of people)

TotO

You don't read what I wrote and only do selective quote answers...  :-\
You are totally wrong about what a game cost before and after its release.

About expansions, if you bought "10 kits" parts equivalent and you sold only 1 the price of 10, where is your risk?  ::)
All the others are pure margin... You don't pay each time the hardware that was already payed.
"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

ikonsgr

My friend, i read very carefully what you wrote and tried to answer specifically (and NOT "selected")  using quotes.
It's you, that you don't  give specific answers, but rather respond with slogans claiming of "higher knowledge" about game costs....


Quote from: TotO on 00:08, 12 July 18About expansions, if you bought "10 kits" parts equivalent and you sold only 1 the price of 10, where is your risk? 

Then you will just cover your expenses for the 10 kits. But,how exactly you will do that? As i'm selling retro items for years on ebay a can surely say to you that even a slight price increas of 10% could impact A LOT your sales! In any case,i really don't get what this comment have to do with the discussion....
???

TotO

Quote from: ikonsgr on 00:21, 12 July 18
My friend, i read very carefully what you wrote and tried to answer specifically using quotes.
It's you that you don't  give specific answers but rather respond with slogans claiming of "higher knowledge" about game costs....
About games, I wrote that each physical versions have a cost and require time to be assembled like an expansion does.
I have wrote that games are sold the price of the hardware used (ie Orion Prime and R-Type) so I think that is enough if you read that. :)
"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

ikonsgr

Well,i'm afraid we are talking different things here.
When i'm referring to games, i mean the game industry for mass market consoles and PC's, and not 2 game titles for cpc.... ::)
And obviously these 2 games can't be used as an "example" of cost/profit analysis for any mass market software (either a game or not), where box/packing for each game, costs almost nothing compared to the usual game price.


btw, how many physical versions you have sold? Since (if i'm not mistaken) you also give a direct download for the games, it would be interested to see how many choose to pay for having the box version.

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