Hi Everyone,
With more and more expansion boards coming out for amstrad cpc in recent years, (M4, RAM/ROM boards etc), the one and only epxansion port might be a problem, if you want to connect more than one of these boards to your amstrad. So, i was thinking of making a cheap "raiser" for the expansion board, which will give you 2 or 3 expansion ports.In order to do that,i designed a special double side 50pin edge2edge adapter (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ydx1y5rur42j50e/edge2edge.png?dl=0) that will go into a typical female edge connector and convert it to "male" edge connector! ;)
I believe i could make a raiser with 2 expansion ports for less than 10euros, but as i dont know if there is any interest in this, i don't know how many special boards to order to the pcb manufacturer. So, anyone intersest, let let me know by posting here.
There are already several different versions of this being made by other members such as the MX4 and other variants (from Duke if I remember correctly). What would this new board offer that they don't?
Bryce.
To tell you the truth, i didn't know that (although i couldn't find anything on ebay) ... ::)
Anyway, are any of these versions you say are still available? And at what price?
It was actually @LambdaMikel (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2172) , not Duke that made an alternative: http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/motherx4-alternative-for-cpc-464-users/msg161349/#msg161349
You'd have to ask him or @TotO (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=290) whether they have any for sale.
Bryce.
It sounds like the difference here is that multiple edge connectors rather than IDC type connectors are provided? Although @LambdaMikel (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2172) 's version does have an edge connector as well..
Edge connectors are a dodgy connection at the best of times. They should be avoided where possible, which is why I (firstly on the MegaROM) and later others used 2.54mm header connectors instead.
Bryce.
Right, and I am crazy enough to sell some of them assembled as "CPC community service" (no, can't retire early from this :( )
https://www.sellmyretro.com/user/profile/cpcmichi/ (https://www.sellmyretro.com/user/profile/cpcmichi/)
Quote from: Bryce on 14:02, 03 July 18
Edge connectors are a dodgy connection at the best of times. They should be avoided where possible, which is why I (firstly on the MegaROM) and later others used 2.54mm header connectors instead.
Bryce.
Yes, but some new and old hardware (DDI3, DKtronics speech synthesizer, SSA1, ...) require it.
It is not that bad if you only have one device like the DDI3. Reliability also increases *a lot* if
you use it one the LambdaBoard edge connector sitting on the stable table rather than hanging
from the CPC edge.
Wow, LambdaMikel (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/profile/?u=2172) this is a really BIG contraption! :)
But as already said, amstrad cpc has edge connector for expansion port (most of them anyway, cpc with centronics are much fewer then with edge connectors)and not idc, so using 50pin female edge connectors is mandatory (all of old addon baoards and most of the newer ones use edge connector, obviously because amstrad cpc is equipped with edge connectros... ::) ).
The idc approach is nice and reliable, but apart from needing the MX4 board, it should require the expansion board to have custom idc connectros to use it.
What i was thinking, is something much more "universal" (e.g. use ANY epxansion board) and simpler (and most probable easier and cheaper to make) , just a 50pin ribbon cable, with a bunch of 50pin female edge connectros on it. The fisrt should be plugged into amstrad cpc expansion port, and all the others will be fitted with the custom edge2edge adapter i designed, in order to "convert" the female connectors to "male" edge connectors! I desgined the board to have ~2.2cm height, so since each edge connector goes up to ~1cm into the female connector, this leaves a "gap" of only ~2-3mm, which i suppose will be rather reliable and robust without any danger of breaking anything.
Quote from: Skunkfish on 13:46, 03 July 18
It sounds like the difference here is that multiple edge connectors rather than IDC type connectors are provided? Although @LambdaMikel (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2172) 's version does have an edge connector as well..
Exactly! It would be as if amstrad cpc has 2 or 3 edge connector expansion ports instead of one! ;)
Quote from: ikonsgr on 17:35, 03 July 18
What i was thinking, is something much more "universal" (e.g. use ANY epxansion board) and simpler (and most probable easier and cheaper to make) , just a 50pin ribbon cable, with a bunch of 50pin female edge connectros on it. The fisrt should be plugged into amstrad cpc expansion port, and all the others will be fitted with the custom edge2edge adapter i designed, in order to "convert" the female connectors to "male" edge connectors! I desgined the board to have ~2.2cm height, so since each edge connector goes up to ~1cm into the female connector, this leaves a "gap" of only ~2-3mm, which i suppose will be rather reliable and robust without any danger of breaking anything.
Interesting idea. I guess I would need to see a use case to fully understand.
So, let's say first we have a female female cable from CPC 464 edge, and plug your edge in there. That gives us the male edge. Then I can connect, for example, my DDI3 or DKtronics at the end, as if it was plugged directly into the CPC. However, how do I connect the next device now. The DDI3 does not have an output connector, and the DKtronics or SSA1 have a male edge connector already.
So, how do I do some port splitting "or daisy chaining" with your adapter?
Quote from: ikonsgr on 17:35, 03 July 18
just a 50pin ribbon cable, with a bunch of 50pin female edge connectros on it.
So, there will be multiple ribbon cables coming out of one female edge connector (to be plugged into the CPC's edge)? How do we make such as thing?
Ahh... I see... you mean you will crimp a couple of these female edge connectors onto the cable. Yes, that could work!
So basically, the ribbon cable will be your "motherboard" then... the only drawback maybe being that the devices will be "lying" then instead of standing upright. That might be a good thing for DDI3 or so, but maybe not so great for a SSA-1 or DKtronics speech synthesizer. Curious to see if this will work from a signal / electrical point of view, too. I.e., try this with 4 MB RAM expansion (XMem or Piotr's). It's actually quite hard to get this to work reliably, cable length etc. THese devices are extremely picky regarding signal runtimes.
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 18:32, 03 July 18
So, there will be multiple ribbon cables coming out of one female edge connector (to be plugged into the CPC's edge)? How do we make such as thing?
Ahh... I see... you mean you will crimp a couple of these female edge connectors onto the cable. Yes, that could work!
Having said this - you could even have a mixture of female edge connectors and IDC box headers crimped onto the same cable. That way, you could also support M4X devices :)
Somebody has tried that before?
Reversiboards are more useful. Crimp on a new IDC connector to the ribbon cable, insert reversiboard, instant new edge connector for any expansion device.http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/news-events/x-mem-a-new-memory-expansion-for-all-cpc/msg79798/#msg79798
Cool, didn't know about ReversiBoard!
Seems the CPC community has explored all permutations / combinations of connectors by now -- not so easy to invent a better mouse trap these days ;D
Well,it seems that i redesign the "Reversi-board" then... :)
LambdaMIkel, it's exactly like you described. The multiple 50pin connectors on the ribbon cable will be..."bisexual" :) , you can use them as they are for connecting any device with edge connector, or plug the "edge2edge" adapter (or "reversi board" as other called it) ,convert them to "male" edges,and plug any device equipped with female edge connector (these are intend to be used directly with original cpc expansion port anyway).
And ofcourse you could even plug extra 50pin idc female connectors too, to give even more "universal" flexibility! ;)
As for your concerns about the ribbon cable length and reliability, let me remind you that old IDE devices used for decades on PC computers, used exactly this type of ribbon cable with multiple connectors on it, and in up to 50cm-60cm in length. These ribbon cables worked perfect with HDD and CD/DVD drives, transferring signals between motherboards and devices up to 33Mhz!
So, no matter how "extremely picky" a 4 MB RAM expansion (XMem or Piotr's) might be, communications through cable will be always at 1Mhz (amstrad's motherborad speed), can this ever be "pickier" than an IDE device working on 33Mhz? ;)
Btw,so far, i didn't see anyone interested in this kind of device (or for the edge2edge boards). I guess only the few "hard core" amstrad users might needing this( and most probable have already solve the problem of multiple connectors, using other solutions), so i will order 4-5 boards for myself then, just to see if it really works... ::)
As the only hardware that needs a real edge connector are older devices (almost all new devices are in "MX4" format), how about designing a riser the would convert an MX4 header port back into an edge for connecting those few existing older devices?
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 11:51, 04 July 18
As the only hardware that needs a real edge connector are older devices (almost all new devices are in "MX4" format), how about designing a riser the would convert an MX4 header port back into an edge for connecting those few existing older devices?
Bryce.
You mean that all newer boards designed for amstrad cpc, use idc connector instead of edge connector? I really didn't know that....But then, you will always need an extra adapter board like MX4, to plug it to your amtrad. Which is not a problem if you want to plug more than one boards, but surely is a waste if you just want to connect one board to your amstrad.... ::) Unless if.... practically, the vast majority of users interested in these expansion boards are only "Hard core" ones, that have hole collections of expansion boards to their possession,so needing an extra multi slot adapter board would be no problem! :D
P.s. Interesting idea about the adapter you say. But instead of redesigning the board, you think that if i put the one end of the edge2edge adapter between a dual row 25pin idc header and solder the pins, should work ok?
Btw, soon i will be presented an "open project" of a cheap and easy to use Serial port interface for amstrad cpc, the board i designed is using a dual row idc header where i plug a ribbon cable with a female idc conector in one end, and a 50pin edge connector on the other in order to connect it directly to an amstrad cpc expansion port. So, i suppose this should be able to plug into mx4 board directly, right?
No, most new boards use a 2.54mm header (straight or 90°), ie: these:
https://www.audiophonics.fr/9333-large_default/2x25-angled-pin-header-connector-pitch-254mm.jpg (https://www.audiophonics.fr/9333-large_default/2x25-angled-pin-header-connector-pitch-254mm.jpg)
You can use these then with an MX4 type board or if you don't want an MX4 or only want to connect one expansion, then you simply make or buy the correct connection cable like these: http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/8/8a/MegaROM_Cables.png
The advantage being that the device designer only needs to design one layout and it will work with any type of CPC with the appropriate cable. No need to design an edge and a centronics version of the device.
Bryce.
Edit: I think you are possibly mis-using the abreviation IDC. IDC stands for Insulation Displacement Connector and refers to connectors (such as flat cable connectors) that self connect to the cable just by pushing the cover down on the cable. A PCB header connector cannot be IDC.
Quote from: Bryce on 11:51, 04 July 18
As the only hardware that needs a real edge connector are older devices (almost all new devices are in "MX4" format), how about designing a riser the would convert an MX4 header port back into an edge for connecting those few existing older devices?
Yes, but old devices are important, ie., the DD1 disk controller, the DKtronics line of hardware, ... so they need to be supported :)
I find it unfortunate that people are mostly 6128 users here and tend to forget how important the edge connector-based hardware is for 464 users.
Quote from: ikonsgr on 12:43, 04 July 18
Btw, soon i will be presented an "open project" of a cheap and easy to use Serial port interface for amstrad cpc, the board i designed is using a dual row idc header where i plug a ribbon cable with a female idc conector in one end, and a 50pin edge connector on the other in order to connect it directly to an amstrad cpc expansion port. So, i suppose this should be able to plug into mx4 board directly, right?
Is it going to be compatible with
http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Amstrad_Serial_Interface ?
I would definetly be interested in such a device; one of the missing pieces in my collection.
Thanks for the info Bryce!
Well practically i did the same thing with my serial port board,use pin headers on the board (btw, yes you were right that i "missuse" the term idc for both connector and pin headers ::) ), and a small ribbon with idc +edge connector to plug it directly to expansion port. And changing the edge to centronics, will do for amstrad/schneider cpc too, so this desing is really a "universal" one!
Still, these connection cables (from idc to edge/centronics), are they always available and easy to find? 50pin edge connectors nowadays, are rather difficult to find and they are rather expensive if you want to buy just 1-2 pieces, (centronics can be found more easily but they are expensive too ~4-6euros/piece),and also not anyone can make a ribbon cable with connectors by himself, right?
I really don't know how many of amstrad users have or want any expansion board and thus, need(or can make by themselfs) such connection cables, from my experience of selling items for amstrad cpc over the last 5-6 years on ebay, i could say that most people just want an easy and cheap way to "revive" the old memories, usually a ribbon cable + Y power cable for external drive connection, and maybe a gotek/Hxc/3.5" drive too.
But maybe you can give us a more accurate view on the subject, as you are admin at cpcwiki and you constanlty dealing with all these "curious" expansion boards for amstrad cpc! ;)
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 16:44, 04 July 18
Is it going to be compatible with
http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Amstrad_Serial_Interface (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Amstrad_Serial_Interface) ?
I would definetly be interested in such a device; one of the missing pieces in my collection.
Well,i don't think so (and reading the article about it, it was rather complicate design with rather low speeds and limited usage) .
The serial interface i design is a "from the scratch" project, based on a PIC microcontroller, and it would be a "universal" serial interface, where you can connect a direct serial cable(or usb to serial adapter,you know these cheap ones with the 4 pin headers, 5v, gnd, Tx,Rx), an HC-05 wireless bluetooth module, or even an ESP8266 wifi module! For the moment, i've tested it sucessfully with speeds up to ~0.5mbit (these speeds were "science fiction" back at the days of serial interface... :)
). I have also developed utilities for chat and file transfer between amstrad and a PC. My intention is to make this a rather easy and cheap 'open source" project, where i will give everything for free (from board schematics and hex file for the PIC MCU, up to the utilities for pc and cpc), and, who knows, maybe in the future could establish a new "standard" for amstrad serial interface! Just imagine developing multiplayer LAN or even WAN games using it... ;)
I'm also thinking of giving a few "Early boards" to anyone interested in testing and using this, but enough said already, soon i'll make a full presentation here at cpcwiki, and we could talk about it there. P.S. To catch Bryce :)
, i know that there is at least another serial interface project using the good old 16550 chip, but my design based on a modern PIC mcu, would be much easier and cheaper to make, and most important, VERY easy to use, just one out() for send, and a couple of inp(), for checking if there is a byte available and receive it, no need to setup anything else, except from the serial port speed, which can be altered "on the fly" too!
Quote from: ikonsgr on 17:22, 04 July 18
but my design based on a modern PIC mcu, would be much easier and cheaper to make
yeah, there are many PIC and AVR-based designs for RS232 around. Most likely you will need a MAX232 driver/receiver though in addition, so it is not entirely trivial.
https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/projects/how-to-use-max232-to-communicate-between-a-pic-and-a-pc/ (https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/projects/how-to-use-max232-to-communicate-between-a-pic-and-a-pc/)
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 18:56, 05 July 18
yeah, there are many PIC and AVR-based designs for RS232 around. Most likely you will need a MAX232 driver/receiver though in addition,
Max32 is needed when you want to convert signals from the "old school" RS232 +/-12volt signals to TTL signals. But since any serial interface available today (from usb to serial cables, bluetooth modules up to wifi esp8266 which is in fact 3.3volt but using a cheap coneveter you can feed it with 5volt signals) are using only TTL, i don't think this is neccessary any more. And since i had i bit of experience with PICs,i end up using a small but rather powerful 8bit 16F1579@32Mhz, equipped with hardware serial interface (and that's why i manage speeds up to ~500kbit and maybe even more). Apart from it, i only used an extra 4002 logic gate chip (Dual Quad input NOR gate) to combine the required signals from amstrad (A5, A10, M1, and IORQ) , in order to issue a pause command to amstrad instantly, when an input or output command to the interface is given.Quote from: LambdaMikel on 18:56, 05 July 18
so it is not entirely trivial.
Tell me about it...achieving the correct timing for turning PIC's data port (which is directly connected to amstrad's data bus) to output (in order for Z80 to read correctly the byte),and then to input (in order to detach pic's dataport from cpc's data bas and not intereffere other tasks ,READY signal pauses Z80, but all other systems inside cpc, are alive and working constantly.... :-) ), was a really HELL of job! It took a lot of impovise (in software and hardware) to finally get this right... ::)
Quote from: ikonsgr on 19:25, 05 July 18
Max32 is needed when you want to convert signals from the "old school" RS232 +/-12volt signals to TTL signals. But since any serial interface available today (from usb to serial cables, bluetooth modules up to wifi esp8266 which is in fact 3.3volt but using a cheap coneveter you can feed it with 5volt signals) are using only TTL, i don't think this is neccessary any more.
Interesting. I am wondering if old school hardware would be the primary target for a RS232 though... but then, I can't really think of any old school hardware. Maybe a telephone modem or the like :laugh:
Quote
Tell me about it...achieving the correct timing for turning PIC's data port (which is directly connected to amstrad's data bus) to output (in order for Z80 to read correctly the byte),and then to input (in order to detach pic's dataport from cpc's data bas and not intereffere other tasks ,READY signal pauses Z80, but all other systems inside cpc, are alive and working constantly.... :-) ), was a really HELL of job! It took a lot of impovise (in software and hardware) to finally get this right... ::)
Yes, I struggled with this using the ATmega at 16 Mhz as well (for LambdaSpeak), and only could get the interface right (timing wise) by adding a flip flop as input buffer and line output driver with output enable as output driver. Now I have a generic solution for this, however, that should also work for all kinds of hardware extensions (just a matter of reprogramming the ATmega).
Originally I thought this could be done by the ATmega left alone, even interrupts turned out to be way to slow to react to the Z80 signals.
Maybe the PIC is better in that regard?
I had the same feeling for the PIC i use. I thought "32Mhz, what a hell, it could do things MUCH faster than the poor old Z80@4Mhz".
But, it turns out that "Granpa" Z80 was really tough to beat... :)
At some stage of development,i was so frustrated of not being able to sync everything right (even having a salae logic analyzer to help, something always seems to be missed out), that i also thought the only way to do it right, was using an extra octal 3state buffer chip (which is as big as the PIC itself), between cpc's 8bit data bus and pic's data port, and enable it by IORQ signal (so the buffer would "Automatically" make the correct "latch/unlatch" of pic's port to cpc's data port).
But then suddenly...an idea "hits me", and using a rudimentary "sample & hold" circuit (just a small diode and a capacitor) of the READY signal that feeded a pic's input pin (this signal issued from 40010 gate array, is acting like "central synchronizer" on amstrad), and then constantly "interrogate" this pin (by issuing"start/stop" signals to z80 every 0.25uS=1T@4Mhz, from pic's program ofcourse), i managed to "bit bang" pic's port at exactly the correct time! :) It's worth to mention that even a tiny delay (from proper timing) of just 0.25uS caused problems! Also, it's very important to disable any interrupt routines using in your MCU probgram while you are in the execution stage of "latch/unlatch" port to cpc's databus. At the begining i forgot to do that, and every time a byte received by the interrupt routine, when this critical stage was executed, everything was f@$%d up!
The thing is that in the end (i'm dealing with this project since last year's summer...), i managed to keep the circuit as it was, without adding extra chips which would add complexity and cost (pcb's footprint is only ~5X3cm, and this includes a pause switch and a reset button too!). And ofcourse getting the satisfaction of "doing it only with a PIC,bro"! ;)
btw,LambdaMikel, what is the instruction time of the atmega? PIC i use, needs 4cycles for all instructions, so @32Mhz you get an actual speed of 8Mips, or 8 instructions/uS. And usually the simpler thing to do ,like setting a pin to high/low, needs 2 instructions, so in practice, the fastest actual speed of doing things with a PIC@32Mhz is 0.25uS. And for the simplest while loop you will need 0.75uS.
Quote from: ikonsgr on 20:07, 05 July 18
At some stage of development,i was so frustrated of not being able to sync everything right (even having a salae logic analyzer to help, something always seems to be missed out), that i also thought the only way to do it right, was using an extra octal 3state buffer chip (which is as big as the PIC itself), between cpc's 8bit data bus and pic's data port, and enable it by IORQ signal (so the buffer would "Automatically" make the correct "latch/unlatch" of pic's port to cpc's data port).
That's what I did until I switched to the Xilinx CPLD that does both input and output buffering (and address decoding of course) of the ATmega / CPC databus, and reacts to the IOREQ and RD and WR etc. It is like a "mailbox" and allows me to work asynchronously with the ATmega from the CPC. Is the PIC also doing the address decoding? Quote
But then suddenly...an idea "hits me", and using a rudimentary "sample & hold" circuit (just a small diode and a capacitor) of the READY signal that feeded a pic's input pin (this signal issued from 40010 gate array, is acting like "central synchronizer" on amstrad), and then constantly "interrogate" this pin (by issuing"start/stop" signals to z80 every 0.25uS=1T@4Mhz, from pic's program ofcourse)
So you are "throttling" the Z80 by pulling wait states? That works, but it would be better if this was not necessary ;) Have you checked how robust this is with different CPCs and cable lengths and other hardware extensions, specifically the 4 MB RAM expansions? Quotei managed to "bit bang" pic's port at exactly the correct time! :) It's worth to mention that even a tiny delay (from proper timing) of just 0.25uS caused problems! Also, it's very important to disable any interrupt routines using in your MCU probgram while you are in the execution stage of "latch/unlatch" port to cpc's databus. At the begining i forgot to do that, and every time a byte received by the interrupt routine, when this critical stage was executed, everything was f@$%d up!
Right, pin change interrupts make your life / timing hard. Best way to sample with a slow (16, 20 MHz) MCU is reading from the GPIO in a tight loop, with all interrupts disabled. Quote
The thing is that in the end (i'm dealing with this project from last year's summer...), i managed to keep the circuit as it was, without adding extra chips which would add complexity and cost (pcb's footprint is only ~5X3cm, and this includes a pause switch and a reset button too!). And ofcourse getting the satisfaction of "doing it only with a PIC,bro"! ;)
Good achievement, congrats! I am wondering how duke is doing this with the M4 etc. His MCU is probably so powerful that it is not an issue either. The problem simply goes away with more Mhz and MCU power of course. Maybe I'll look into using the 32 MHz PIC for my next hardware project as well; an additional 12 MHz over the 20 MHz ATmega 644 that I am currently using can make a big difference I suppose.
Quote
btw,LambdaMikel, what is the instruction time of the atmega? PIC i use, needs 4cycles for all instructions, so @32Mhz you get an actual speed of 8Mips, or 8 instructions/uS. And usually the simpler thing to do ,like setting a pin to high/low, needs 2 instructions, so in practice, the fastest actual speed of doing things with a PIC@32Mhz is 0.25uS. And for the simplest while loop you will need 0.75uS. Also, using interrupt routines issue a BIG penalty at actual speed, as the hole status of mcu must be saved to ram, then execute interrupt code, and then reload everything from ram, to start from where it's left, with pic this takes dozens of instructions, often more time than the execution of the interrupt itself!
AFAIK, ATmega / AVR is RISC and each OP requires 1 cycle only.
@Duke (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1624) , can you educate and enlighten us how you are dealing with that problem (see discussion?) M4 board has only one chip as well ;D
<-- getting popcorn now to learn from the master himself ;)
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 20:51, 05 July 18
That's what I did until I switched to the Xilinx CPLD that does both input and output buffering (and address decoding of course) of the ATmega / CPC databus, and reacts to the IOREQ and RD and WR etc. It is like a "mailbox" and allows me to work asynchronously with the ATmega from the CPC. Is the PIC also doing the address decoding?
The address decoding at my situation, involves only 2 address bits, and 2 cpu signals, so the "decoding" (=when amstrad cpc must pause and pic must be enabled) is done by a small and simple 4002 logic gate chip.I tried to do that using pic at first, but even this simple decoding couldn't be done fast enough. ...
Propagating 10's, 100's or 1000's of signals simultaneously in blazing fast speeds, is the only thing that PIC CANT do well. In fact i think that, no MCU can do such things. If they could, then PAL's, CLPD's, FPGA's would be useless :) . Btw, i heard (never involved with such things myself) that programming these logic gate array "monsters" ,like CLPD's and FPGA's, is very difficult and tedious task, the tools to do it are very complex and hard to use, is this true?Quote from: LambdaMikel on 20:51, 05 July 18
So you are "throttling" the Z80 by pulling wait states? That works, but it would be better if this was not necessary ;) Have you checked how robust this is with different CPCs and cable lengths and other hardware extensions, specifically the 4 MB RAM expansions?
Well, not exactly. What i actually do, is to activate the "READY" signal which "tells" the cpu that it can't access address bus and data bus (this of course, cause any program execution to halt,practically pausing amstrad). Anyway,i doubt this can do any harm as (and you might already know that) this is what gate array 40010 does ALL the time! It constantly issues a pulse every 1uSecond, at Z80's "READY" input , and only then, Z80 is allowed to access addr&data buses . Signal analysis also revealed that pulse width is 0.25uS (25% duty cycle), so in reality 75% of the time Z80 is... waiting ::) (fortunately most of Z80 commands need 4cycles to execute, so in practice this doesn't have any impact in performance as addr&data access is usually needed to accessed every 1us anyway) . I have checked the circuit with 3 different amstrad cpc 6128, but unfortunately i don't have any expansion boards to test it along with it. I suppose that you must have a lot of expansion boards for amstrad,so maybe i should send you a board for more thorough testing :)
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 20:51, 05 July 18
Good achievement, congrats! I am wondering how duke is doing this with the M4 etc. His MCU is probably so powerful that it is not an issue either. The problem simply goes away with more Mhz and MCU power of course.
As you said, Duke is using a 32bit RISC MONSTER MCU that runs ,if not mistaken, @160Mhz!! (btw, the only person that might know the "inner workings" of an amstrad cpc better than Duke, might be... the one who designed Amstrad cpc... :D . The things he achieved with M4 board, and especially the writing of custom "amsdos" to enable "on the fly" loading of games directly from the net,is really unbelievable...just RESPECT! :) ). With that kind of power, timing issues are surely not a problem. I think i read in the thread of M4 board, where he explained some things, that he uses the same approach with my device, it sets ready signal so that amstrad will freeze, and then have all the time to do what it needs. Then probably unpause amstrad, but having so much power, synchronizing the "latch/unlatch" of cpc's data bus, would be much easier (and precise) thing to do.
Quote from: ikonsgr on 23:01, 05 July 18
Well, not exactly. What i actually do, is to activate the "READY" signal which "tells" the cpu that it can't access address bus and data bus (this of course, cause any program execution to halt,practically pausing amstrad). Anyway,i doubt this can do any harm as (and you might already know that) this is what gate array 40010 does ALL the time!
Right, I am using this trick as well in one LambdaSpeak mode - of course, this gives you an arbitrary amount of time to process the IO request since you halt the CPC ;) This is also how you implement the Pause switch, right?
The only thing I think of maybe being critical is if the address decoding is not very selective (i.e., you decode a whole range), and then with a timing / hardware critical demo that controls the CRTC directly or the like the timing gets messed up if the expansion things it has to throw in a couple of wait states when it wasn't really addressed (I guess that could only happen for certain IO addresses being used by internal chips in the CPC, potentially). But I am not an expert in this either.
Quote
I suppose that you must have a lot of expansion boards for amstrad,so maybe i should send you a board for more thorough testing :)
I'd be interested. I could connect my Tandy TRS 100 or TRS 80 Model 4 to the CPC over serial, with a terminal program or something like that for testing - to evaluate retro compatibility of RS232 ;)
Do you have a CPC terminal program running / working with your card?
PS On a related note, are there any demos that crash when you hit the Pause button?
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 23:23, 05 July 18
Right, I am using this trick as well in one LambdaSpeak mode - of course, this gives you an arbitrary amount of time to process the IO request since you halt the CPC ;) This is also how you implement the Pause switch, right?
Yeap, just forcing READY signal to ground and everything stops! ;) Quote from: LambdaMikel on 23:23, 05 July 18
The only thing I think of maybe being critical is if the address decoding is not very selective (i.e., you decode a whole range), and then with a timing / hardware critical demo that controls the CRTC directly or the like the timing gets messed up if the expansion things it has to throw in a couple of wait states when it wasn't really addressed (I guess that could only happen for certain IO addresses being used by internal chips in the CPC, potentially). But I am not an expert in this either.
The decoding ,only enables the pausing of amstrad and activating of the device, when input/output commands are given to specific ports, more precisely &FBD0-&FBDF (although i only use &FBD0 and &FBD1). I've loaded many games and demos with the device attached, and everything worked fine (just like nothing was connected :-) ).If you want take a look here (http://www.cpctech.org.uk/docs/iopord.html) . Also the spanish guy who made the serial port based on the 16550 UART chip, (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.va-de-retro.com%2Fforos%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D3840&edit-text=) can help you clear things out about "how and why" of the specific port used. Quote from: LambdaMikel on 23:23, 05 July 18
I'd be interested. I could connect my Tandy TRS 100 or TRS 80 Model 4 to the CPC over serial, with a terminal program or something like that for testing - to evaluate retro compatibility of RS232 ;)
Do you have a CPC terminal program running / working with your card?
Yes,i have developed a small chat(e.g. terminal) program in locomotive basic (and also compiled it with turbo basic to have faster in response), which is tested with various terminal pc programs and seemed to work fine (i also test it with bluetooth module and my smartphone using a terminal program and chat seemed to work fine too :) ), using serial cable, wireless bluetooth module and wifi esp8266 module (although the last one need some modifications in the basic program as it can't send receive bytes/chars directly, but through "encapsulation" with AT commands). You can also change serial port speed at any time by just issuing an "OUT &FBD1,x" command (where x is a speed code, 10,11,12.. up to 18, supporting speeds at 300,2400,9600,19200,38400,115200,230400,460800, i may add even more speeds as this can be done easily). I have also developed amstrad and pc programs for transferring files directly from cpc disk to pc and from pc to cpc disk. So the card will be ready to use for chat and file transfer, but since i'll give all the details about it , anyone could develop programs to use it! ;)
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 23:32, 05 July 18
PS On a related note, are there any demos that crash when you hit the Pause button?
Not i'm aware of.
Quote from: ikonsgr on 20:07, 05 July 18
even a tiny delay (from proper timing) of just 0.25uS caused problems
This is one place where the size of the numbers is misleading. 0.25uS seems tiny until you look at how long a 4MHz clock cycle is. That "tiny delay" is actually an
entire clock cycle!
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 21:32, 05 July 18
@Duke (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1624) , can you educate and enlighten us how you are dealing with that problem (see discussion?) M4 board has only one chip as well ;D
On the ARM cortex mcu's you can setup events on edge detection, similar to interrupts, except they have a lot less setup time.
So I setup edge detectors for RD & WR (earlier versions used ROMEN, IORQ, RD). Have a tight assembler loop with WFE (wait for event) and minimal gpio reading + logic to determine the operation.
Even with 168MHz timing is very strict.
For rom/ram emulation I cannot slow down the Z80 for proper operation, so that has to work realtime.
Simple example for address I/O decoding (this is could run fine on lesser ARM MCU as IORQ requests have lots of time to process):
mainloop:
wfe
ldrh r2, [r0, #0x10] @ GPIOB->IDR (get IORQ,RD,WR)
ldrh r3, [r0, #0xC10] @ gpioE->IDR (get a0-a15)
ands r1, r2, #5 @ is it IORQ & WR
beq IORQ_WR
ands r1, r2, #3 @ is it IORQ & RD
beq IORQ_RD
@other code here if needed
....
b mainloop
IORQ_RD:
cmp r3, r8 @ is it port
bne mainloop
....
For I/O operations like sdcard and wifi access, I use BUSREQ and BUSAK to halt the z80 execution when the final I/O kick is issued, in order not to maintain realtime rom board while the M4/ESP are doing longer operations. Another solution could have been to pull an I/O port to check if the operation was finished, but it would have had to run from RAM only.
When switching to cortex M7, I was still met with problems when wanting to do even tighter operations, the MCU while lots faster overall, its not any faster when doing simple test & branch instructions, so I took a complete new approuch.
I emulate every Z80 instruction in ARM assembly realtime, this way I can predict operations before they fully happen, so timing became much easier. This idea may work well for slower MCU's too.
So instead you have an edge trigger for M1 and decode instructions and their operations on the fly.
Quote from: Duke on 06:30, 06 July 18
For rom/ram emulation I cannot slow down the Z80 for proper operation, so that has to work realtime.
Well, that is definetely something you CANT do with a "humble" 8bit PIC@32Mhz i used... :-)
Quote from: Duke on 06:30, 06 July 18
...Another solution could have been to pull an I/O port to check if the operation was finished, but it would have had to run from RAM only.
I believe this is what i did (sort of anyway), when amstrad needs to read the I/O port, without even using BUREQ and BUSAK. After initial pausing and execution of pic's code to issue the byte to the data bus, i unpause amstrad for just 1cycle=0.25us.During this time,a rudimentary "sample & hold" circuit of the ready signal (small diode+1nF capacitor), is pulled to some PIC's I/O port. After pausing amstrad again (using the very same ready signal), i check the level of the I/O pin, and if it's "high" means that Z80 has read the byte from data bus and so i can "unlatch" PIC's port from amstrad's data bus, by turning its direction from OUTPUT to INPUT. If I/O pin is low, then another "unpause/pause" loop is executed. Quote from: Duke on 06:30, 06 July 18
I emulate every Z80 instruction in ARM assembly realtime, this way I can predict operations before they fully happen, so timing became much easier. This idea may work well for slower MCU's too.
And this also something you CANT do with a "humble" 8bit PIC too.... ::)
Btw, Duke, what's the cost of the ARM cortex MCU you are using? Did you program it directly with assembly? With such large and complex mcu,i suppose programming must be much more difficult than with an 8bit PIC i used..
Quote from: ikonsgr on 09:09, 06 July 18
And this also something you CANT do with a "humble" 8bit PIC too.... ::)
Probably not, there's a bit messing about to get the flags right on the result of many instructions, this is where m7 executing two instructions in one cycle comes in handy - but lookups could be used instead to minimize that. I wouldn't try though :)
Quote
Btw, Duke, what's the cost of the ARM cortex MCU you are using? Did you program it directly with assembly? With such large and complex mcu,i suppose programming must be much more difficult than with an 8bit PIC i used..
It's cheap and yes all interface logic is in assembler, rest is in C (SD card, WiFi etc).
https://www.arrow.com/en/products/stm32f407vgt6/stmicroelectronics (https://www.arrow.com/en/products/stm32f407vgt6/stmicroelectronics)
Especially if you buy many.
M7 is not in good offers yet, when you need >=1MB flash + 512KB ram:
https://www.arrow.com/en/products/stm32f767vit6/stmicroelectronics (https://www.arrow.com/en/products/stm32f767vit6/stmicroelectronics)
Also you can get the lesser cortex-m3 for around $2, I would prefer to use that over PIC/AVR
Thanks for the info Duke!
Perhaps some day you should publish a study of "how to" you did the M4 board.
Especially the part of writing your own amsdos routines to replace disk access with direct sdcard card access, would be really interesting.
M4 will definetely fall into history as the board who brought Amstrad to the 21st century... :)
Btw, for such a device,i would definetely choose another name than "M4", something more... "represantitave" of its abilities, like "SUPER BOARD, MAKE THE IMPOSSIBLE, POSSIBLE"... :D
Quote from: ikonsgr on 09:46, 06 July 18
Thanks for the info Duke!
Perhaps some day you should publish a study of "how to" you did the M4 board.
Especially the part of writing your own amsdos routines to replace disk access with direct sdcard card access, would be really interesting.
I made the source code for this available ages ago, here:
https://github.com/M4Duke/m4rom (https://github.com/M4Duke/m4rom)
There's not a lot to it.
Quote
M4 will definetely fall into history as the board who brought Amstrad to the 21st century... :)
Btw, for such a device,i would definetely choose another name than "M4", something more... "represantitave" of its abilities, like "SUPER BOARD, MAKE THE IMPOSSIBLE, POSSIBLE"... :D
Thanks. Yeah I probably should have, too late - next generations have better names :)
Just saw the M7 Galaxy board project of yours... It's like a borg invasion into amstrad cpc:
"WE ARE THE 'M' BOARDS, RESISTANCE IS FUTILE, PREPARE TO BE "CORTEX"-ASSIMILATED".... :)
Quote from: Duke on 09:55, 06 July 18
Yeah I probably should have, too late - next generations have better names :)
M5? :laugh:
EDIT: Just saw the M7 / Galaxy board, I thought ikonsgr was joking!
Yes, the CPC is a really nice add on to the M4 :laugh:
QuoteFor the moment, i've tested it sucessfully with speeds up to ~0.5mbit (these speeds were "science fiction" back at the days of serial interface... (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/Smileys/SoLoSMiLeYS1/smiley.gif) ). I have also developed utilities for chat and file transfer between amstrad and a PC. My intention is to make this a rather easy and cheap 'open source" project, where i will give everything for free (from board schematics and hex file for the PIC MCU, up to the utilities for pc and cpc), and, who knows, maybe in the future could establish a new "standard" for amstrad serial interface! Just imagine developing multiplayer LAN or even WAN games using it... (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/Smileys/SoLoSMiLeYS1/wink.gif)
I would have a first use-case: get one of these cheap 5 $ MP3 modules from Ebay with SPI / I2C / Serial Streaming support,
e.g. https://www.ebay.com/itm/SPI-Interface-VS1053-MP3-Module-Development-Board-On-Board-Recording-Function/321573958417?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/SPI-Interface-VS1053-MP3-Module-Development-Board-On-Board-Recording-Function/321573958417?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649)and use your fast serial interface -> SPI to stream MP3 audio to it. Voliá, 20 $ MP3 player for the CPC 8)
Well,i don't know if CPC can "feed" fast enough this kind of board. Maybe if i sent you a board, you could try this and see if it works :)
And i suppose that any board/device with serial I/O interface (and i think there are MANY of these nowadays, doing whatever you can think of...) can be hooked up to cpc serial interface! Then, it's only a matter of "managing" the data sent/received with a custom program, to make it work (which would be rether easy thing to do, using only a couple of inp() and out() commands, even from locomotive basic)! ;)
Quote from: ikonsgr on 10:15, 09 July 18
Well,i don't know if CPC can "feed" fast enough this kind of board. Maybe if i sent you a board, you could try this and see if it works :)
Thanks for the offer, but I currently don't have enough time for this. I would buy one though when it is ready :D Yes there is a lot or interesting serial hardware around. At some point I suggest somebody could make a plug in board for SPI / I2C / Serial / UART that would host all kinds of different click! boards from Mikroelektronika. And similar to your idea, one would only need to write "drivers" for the MCU to support a new Mikroelektronika click! board. But then, who needs all that stuff on the CPC... most people are fine with playing their games. CPC hardware development is *mostly* a hobby and occupation for the hardware designers themselves I believe. Certainly one can't retire early from that. I think, with the exception of boards such as M4 and XMem and DDI3, if one can sell a dozen or so then this is already maxed out. But then, CPC hardware development is really mostly about the fun of "making" something IMHO. So I am largely doing this for myself, not for money or recognition or whatever other reason.
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 15:32, 03 July 18
Right, and I am crazy enough to sell some of them assembled as "CPC community service" (no, can't retire early from this :( )
https://www.sellmyretro.com/user/profile/cpcmichi/ (https://www.sellmyretro.com/user/profile/cpcmichi/)
I don't take care yesterday that was you that trying to sell those adapters so expensive... Why?
Can't you offer your time to the community like others doing dump, games and demo?
Quote from: TotO on 14:40, 11 July 18
I don't take care yesterday that was you that trying to sell those adapters so expensive... Why?
Can't you offer your time to the community like others doing dump, games and demo?
Not sure I understand what you mean. For "community service", I have shared the Gerbers a long time ago such that people can build it themselves for whatever price they can source the components for. Same with the software.
https://github.com/lambdamikel/LambdaSpeak (https://github.com/lambdamikel/LambdaSpeak)
I can't say / see that everybody offering hardware here has done that...
You mean this one?
https://www.sellmyretro.com/offer/details/cpc-464-expansion-port-extender-32275 (https://www.sellmyretro.com/offer/details/cpc-464-expansion-port-extender-32275)
It is not expensive, if you consider that postage from the US is 14 $, and that's included in the price. So it is 20 $ only. The combined price for the 3 headers is 10 $ well. If you don't want it, assemble it yourself. Btw, the first batch I used OshPark PCBs which are much more expensive than Seeed studio.... 3 of these little board is 27 $ / 9 $ each. You are right, originally (last year or so) they sold for even more - but then, I found a better source for the angled IDC edge connectors, and I became better and faster at producing / soldering them, which took a while originally. And I guess other people might be better at sourcing components. Anyhow, I don't see I owe you an explanation for anything I am doing :)
But in principle I also don't see anything wrong with getting reimbursed for the components and the time it takes to assemble them. Because these things also come with an opportunity cost. And yes, I try to "round up" to some extent to cover for additional material that I had to acquire, like soldering, test equipment, ... These costs go down the longer you are assembling and "producing" hardware I believe. If you don't like it or think it's too expensive, then don't buy and assembly it yourself from the shared Gerbers. As simple as that :) AND not everybody buying / selling stuff on SellMyRetro or Ebay is from the CPC Community or giving stuff away for free either.
On a related note, I was wondering - where are the Gerbers and firmware files for XMem etc. btw such that people can build it themselves? Are they shared somewhere?
But I was impressed that you can offer XMem etc. for such low / inexpensive price! I am not sure how you do this. You must have good component supplier. Maybe share some insights here how to produce hardware really inexpensive, that would be helpful.
Any how, I don't think it is fair to @Ikonsgr to hijack this thread like this and make it off topic.
Another example of me "ripping of CPC community members badly" is this one:
https://www.sellmyretro.com/offer/details/lambdaspeak-speech-synthesizer-kit--_-for-all-cpc-models-32330
But then, is it really?
Consider the click! board is 40 $ already, it is modified by me, free postage from the US ( ~ 14 $ mostly) is included, the MCU Atmegea 644 I am buying myself for 10 $.... hmm. So how much money is left for PCB and all the other components? That's right, VERY little.
Michael
I don't speak about your Speach Syntheziser project as the price was decreased by the help or Bryce to optimize it.
I have said into the past that it was nice but may be the parts are not the best choice except for a personnal project.
About your adapters boards, is not because it is on Guihub, that excuse you to make money on the community instead of offering your time like others. They are only wiring and connectors, no more than MotherX4.
35$ - 12$ shipping = 23$ for around 3$ PCB including parts.
50$ - 12$ shipping = 38$ for around 8$ PCB including parts.
For this price you can bought a M4 board in example. And if Duke put his schematic on Guihub, that will not make it more expensive.
The same for me and the Playcity I have probably sold to you for 24.90€ + 4.90€ shipping.
- PCB = 1.7$
- CTC = 5.90$
- YMZ x2 = 14$
- 3x Tulip Sockets = 1.5$
- Resistors = 0.60$
- Capacitor = 0.20$
- Decoupling capacitors = 0.15$
- Sliding switch = 0.50$
- MX4 connector = 0.80$
TOTAL = 25,25$ = 22€
So, do not confuse "protecting a design to keep a good price" and trying to sell high because the design is free for DIY.
CPC is not a business place... The community is little don't require that at all.
I don't said to not sell your boards, but inform peoples that it should be more attractive if your work is not for business.
Quote from: TotO on 18:24, 11 July 18
I don't said to not sell your boards, but inform peoples that it should be more attractive if your work is not for business.
Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, I don't see any CPC business on my side so far, reallyMaybe I tried getting some cash for, say, funding future hardware development equipment and also for "return of investment". See, when I started with ATMega and CPLD for CPC a year ago, I did not have any equipment - I needed to purchase the Xilinx USB programmers, the AVR programmers, I got an oscilloscope and even an - used old - logic analyzer. So maybe I spent about 500 $ to get started. And maybe I though it would be nice to being able to sell some self-made DIY electronics for the CPC for a little bit of extra money to fund this, yes. But so far, it is only expenses, really. I need to develop a more successful product in order to get into the "black" numbers :laugh: One really has to consider opportunity cost a bit with these things. It takes easily hundreds of hours to develop a board such as LambdaSpeak. All that time I could be working at McDonalds, walk the dog, or do other useful things. So we all do this LARGELY because we are CPC fanatics and LOVE that old machine. Otherwise it would be completely irrational to spend so much time. I disagree, it is not largely for business. It is for self improvement, learning, DIY, having fun making something, maybe for sharing your enthusiasm for the CPC with others and the community, etc. From a business perspective, that time would be MUCH better spent working at McDonalds :laugh:
Quote from: TotO on 18:24, 11 July 18
About your adapters boards, is not because it is on Guihub, that excuse you to make money on the community instead of offering your time like others. They are only wiring and connectors, no more than MotherX4.
I offered my time by making and developing it. And I did that largely for myself, yes.
I still consider selling the adapters for a SLIGHTLY higher than necessary price as COMMUNITY SERVICE because that's what it is. Not everybody can solder one. And I actually don't enjoy soldering that much. For the minimal financial plus / revenue that I am getting from selling an adapter board and the required time for soldering it, this time is, from a "business perspective", much better spent working at McDonalds, OR for walking the dog (from a cost / pleasure opportunity point of view).
Overall, I have sold maybe 3 adapters btw, and 2 LambdaBoards. So I guess people either have their own solutions anyway, or consider it too expensive. This is actually good if they then consider to make their own - DIY. The less time I have to spend with the soldering iron, the better ;) Maybe the price is kept a bit higher also for this reason, to actually discourage people to buy it... and DIY. For those who really can't do it themselves, I offer to help, but I want to be reimbursed for my miserable time with the iron. Not sure that all makes sense, but not everything is rational.
Quote from: LambdaMikelThanks for the advice. Unfortunately, I don't see any CPC business on my side so far, reallyMaybe I tried getting some cash for, say, funding future hardware development equipment and also for "return of investment".
Sorry, but peoples don't have to fund your hardware for next projects that is not what they bought... It is our hobby or it is not. If it was the case, so we have to pay guys for CPC demo, softwares and games because they have hardware to bought to do the development. :laugh:
Quote from: LambdaMikelI offered my time by making and developing it. And I did that largely for myself, yes.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/W8QRExBfQhs/hqdefault.jpg)
Quote from: TotO on 18:24, 11 July 18
I have said into the past that it was nice but may be the parts are not the best choice except for a personnal project.
See, I admire your work, but this was / is a personal DIY self learning / self improvement project, so I don't actually care that much what people think of it. There is always somebody better... (i.e., I am not comparing my work the work of your, Bryce, or Duke). I am only trying to have some fun and learn something and maybe don't try to get too much into the red numbers because of all the hardware stuff that I am buying for my (new electronics) hobby.
:laugh: One Like for the nice pic - you saved my day.
I see your point though, thanks for sharing your perspective and the great products and support you have been given to the CPC community! :)
I'm not criticizing your work, because it is nice to offer new and alternative hardware like your original syntheziser projects. Just that I have a problem with "easy money" as we see more and more peoples selling parts or interface needed by many peoples the price as complex expansions.Now, don't care. I just can suggest you to add a key hole to your edge connector to allow all the old expansions to be plugged.Quote from: LambdaMikel on 19:04, 11 July 18 :laugh: One Like for the nice pic - you saved my day.
;D
Quote from: TotO on 19:06, 11 July 18
Now, don't care. I just can suggest you to add a key hole to your edge connector to allow all the old expansions to be plugged.
;D
Sorry, didnt get that. What is a key hole?
The Edge connector "cut" that allow some expansions using a keying, to not fit if plugged in the wrong way.
Understood, yes, that is a useful modification to the PCB edge!
(Otherwise one has to "pull" the keys from the edge connectors, I think I did that for DDI1 or so)
Yes, peoples should do that if possible. Just, when you will redo a design it is free to add that. ;)
Now I feel badly that we hijacked @ikonsgr (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=541) 's thread.... we should have created a new thread fo r this off topic discussion.
Not too much I think... But sure, he his free to ask to split or delete de posts. Sorry. :-\
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 16:10, 10 July 18
But then, who needs all that stuff on the CPC... most people are fine with playing their games.
Exactly my friend. And this is also my experience for selling useful stuff for amstrad cpc on ebay in the last 5-6 years. Most people just want to have FUN with their amstrad! ;-)Quote from: LambdaMikel on 16:10, 10 July 18
CPC hardware development is *mostly* a hobby and occupation for the hardware designers themselves I believe. Certainly one can't retire early from that. I think, with the exception of boards such as M4 and XMem and DDI3, if one can sell a dozen or so then this is already maxed out. But then, CPC hardware development is really mostly about the fun of "making" something IMHO. So I am largely doing this for myself, not for money or recognition or whatever other reason.
Again ,exactly my thoughts! I have spent literally many 100's of hours on the cpc serial port project over the last year or so, and in the process, i got involved with assembly programming (i even developed a code (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/programming/how-to-readwrite-a-file-'byte-by-byte'-using-firmware-but-much-faster!/msg162099/#msg162099) for fast read/write files byte by byte using firmware, because of this project!), DELPHI programming on the PC, PIC programming, basic programming on CPC, bought tested and learn to configure (using at commands) bluetooth modules, wifi modules, usb to serial interfaces, design the schematics and the pcb board for the circuit... Surely, my intention for doing all this, was not for... "exploiting the community!" :)
As you said it,i did it *mostly* as a hobby, a fun of "making" something, and in the end, sharing any knowledge and achievement with the community! BUT, having said that, i really don't find it unethical or in any way "exploitation" if i, you, or anyone who designed any kind of hardware for cpc ,offers this hardware for anyone wants to buy it, even with some profit for the designer! You see my friend, (and this goes to TOTO too), hardware is NOT the same as a virtual product like software, where someone spent time to design/make it ONCE, and then sell/share unlimited copies of it, without any extra effort! Hardware is something PHYSICAL, which, after initial design and making of, it needs EXTRA money for parts and EXTRA labor time to make, for EACH item you make! So,i find it completely irrelevant and unjust to compare the free distribution of games/demos to the community with that of hardware for cpc! Giving free software as "community service" is effortless and "cost free", giving HARDWARE is NOT! Of course i will agree that retro computer communities (especially amiga...) have frequently become a field of overpriced exploitation and "easy money maker" from people that usually have nothing to do with communities or love for home micros, but these people have NOTHING to do with LambdaMikel or me or anyone who design, make and sell some hardware,and not JUST RESELLING ready made hardware for profit! I confess that, when i first saw the price of the Speach Syntheziser for the cpc, it seemed a bit expensive, but after considering the cost of it (as LambdaMikel analyzed the costs in previous post) , i really can't see how a few dollars profit (which merely can cover the time and effort needed to make such a board..) can not STILL considered as a TRULY "community service"! ::)
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 18:45, 11 July 18
I still consider selling the adapters for a SLIGHTLY higher than necessary price as COMMUNITY SERVICE because that's what it is. Not everybody can solder one. And I actually don't enjoy soldering that much. For the minimal financial plus / revenue that I am getting from selling an adapter board and the required time for soldering it, this time is, from a "business perspective", much better spent working at McDonalds, OR for walking the dog (from a cost / pleasure opportunity point of view).
My Two Cents:
I think people are entitled to sell their hardware for whatever they want, provided they are honest about it... If someone started mass producing Neogeo->Cpc controller dongles that cost $2 and sold them for $200... well good luck to them! (I doubt they'd sell any though)... what I'd be unhappy with is if they claimed they were making a loss on them, or that was the least they could sell them for... on the contrary, if making money on your hardware means you can produce more in the future, or continue producing indefinitely, then go for it! (rather than a time limited small run)
I didn't buy a lamdaspeak, but the cost was not an issue... I just can't think of a case where I wanted my CPC (or my PC for that matter) to talk to me... If that was something I did want, and it was $180... I'd have bought it... and that's not to say I think 'Speech synthesis is pointless or dumb' or anything like that... I think it was a great achievement... Speech Synth is just not something that excites me enough to pursue.
Quote from: ikonsgr on 22:41, 11 July 18
Giving free software as "community service" is effortless and "cost free"
Developing software is only cost free if your time is worthless... I live in Japan, and my Japanese has got worse because I have prioritized 8 bit development over language study... now that's my choice, but it's a choice based on weighing up the expected 'gains' from spending time programming, VS studying or doing something else... If someone I met called me "a fool for wasting my time doing 8 bit development", I couldn't look them in the eye and tell them they were wrong.
Quote from: ikonsgr on 22:41, 11 July 18You see my friend, (and this goes to TOTO too), hardware is NOT the same as a virtual product like software, where someone spent time to design/make it ONCE, and then sell/share unlimited copies of it, without any extra effort! Hardware is something PHYSICAL, which, after initial design and making of, it needs EXTRA money for parts and EXTRA labor time to make, for EACH item you make! So,i find it completely irrelevant and unjust to compare the free distribution of games/demos to the community with that of hardware for cpc!
I don't agree and I think to be well placed to know about the subject.
Programming a game or a massive demo could took years... Designing a MotherX4-like board few hours. And 20mn to assemble it.
When a game is released, designing the physical copy took weeks and building each box versions 20mn too... To be sold the price of the used hardware, not extra cost to pay a new hardware to acheive the next project. As example Orion Prime or R-Type. Building hardware is not a god exception.
Quote from: TotO on 22:54, 11 July 18
Programming a game or a massive demo could took years...
Maybe, but after the INITIAL development, selling each copy of this game costs NOTHING at all (even if game is boxed and not downloadable, box/packing for each game cost almost nothing compared to the game price), it terms of time, labour or money! Don't you know that big game distributors for PC/PS3/PS4 etc, make for their million $ of expenses for a game, in just DAYS (or a few weeks at most), and after that, MILLIONS $ OF PROFIT is gained? Having said that, don't you think that software gives maybe the best potential for "Easy money" and exploitation of time/labor? ::)
(btw, i was working in industry for quite some years as a computer developer/ programmer and I.T. stuff, so i know "First hand" about the difficulties of making software, but this doesn't change the FACT about software i note you above)
Quote from: TotO on 22:54, 11 July 18
Designing a MotherX4-like board few hours. And 20mn to assemble it.
Also it takes money for the parts, and money/time for shipping too. A game that is offered through a web page to download doesn't need any of this.
Quote from: TotO on 22:54, 11 July 18When a game is released, designing the physical copy took weeks and building each box versions 20mn too
Again, this applies ONLY ONCE. You DON'T "spent weeks for designing physical copy", for EACH COPY you sell! You just do it ONCE! Sell 10 copies, or 10 milllion copies ,your cost and expenses are THE SAME! btw, what you mean that you need "20mins for building each box versions"? You need 20mins for Packing each gamebox? What game is that and why need so much time?
In any case, this is NOT the case with HARDWARE! Building hardware needs parts and "20min to assemble" (and most probable extra time for testing,as i always do, with the stuff i make) for EACH board you sell!
Frankly,i can't understand how and why you argue with such undeniable objective fact....
Quote from: keith56 on 22:51, 11 July 18
Developing software is only cost free if your time is worthless... I live in Japan, and my Japanese has got worse because I have prioritized 8 bit development over language study... now that's my choice, but it's a choice based on weighing up the expected 'gains' from spending time programming, VS studying or doing something else... If someone I met called me "a fool for wasting my time doing 8 bit development", I couldn't look them in the eye and tell them they were wrong.
Ι think you misinterpret what i wrote. When i wrote "Giving free software as "community service" is effortless and "cost free", i meant the distribution of this software to the community is effortless and "cost free" , NOT the development of it, which of course is something that might need much time and effort.
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 18:45, 11 July 18
Overall, I have sold maybe 3 adapters btw, and 2 LambdaBoards. So I guess people either have their own solutions anyway, or consider it too expensive.
On that subject, and having some experience with making and selling dozens of things for retro computers on ebay the last 5-6 years,i could tell you this:
Commercial success of anything,is based mostly on the combination of two things: PRICE AND USEFULNESS!
In the past, i made a couple of things that, although cost me a lot of time and money to make them, they didn't sell at all,where other items that were easy to design and make, sell very well!
For example, the usb joystick/gamepad adapter for 9pin game port, didn't sell at all, (until i forced to sell it with loss...). The fact that demand for such adapters is not big (not many old school lovers have modern usb gamepads/joysticks that want to use them with their amiga's ,c64, cpc's... ), combined with the relatively high cost (~30 euros including postage) of the adapter, ruined any sales potential.
On the other hand, an adapter that converts an AMIGA 500 external drive to internal (in order to boot form external drive,amiga 500 normally doesn't support this), took me a few hours to design and sells dozens each month. Obviously there was a rather big demand for such adapter, but also the low price (~10 euros) boost sales a lot.
So, in 2 words, in order to have commercial success with any of your project, first you must design something that relatively many people, might want it, and maybe most importantly, sell it at the lowest price you can! (mind also that selling at prices of more than 20$-25$ reduce a lot the potential selling rates, unless the item is something really needed by a lot of people)
You don't read what I wrote and only do selective quote answers... :-\
You are totally wrong about what a game cost before and after its release.
About expansions, if you bought "10 kits" parts equivalent and you sold only 1 the price of 10, where is your risk? ::)
All the others are pure margin... You don't pay each time the hardware that was already payed.
My friend, i read very carefully what you wrote and tried to answer specifically (and NOT "selected") using quotes.
It's you, that you don't give specific answers, but rather respond with slogans claiming of "higher knowledge" about game costs....
Quote from: TotO on 00:08, 12 July 18About expansions, if you bought "10 kits" parts equivalent and you sold only 1 the price of 10, where is your risk?
Then you will just cover your expenses for the 10 kits. But,how exactly you will do that? As i'm selling retro items for years on ebay a can surely say to you that even a slight price increas of 10% could impact A LOT your sales! In any case,i really don't get what this comment have to do with the discussion.... ???
Quote from: ikonsgr on 00:21, 12 July 18
My friend, i read very carefully what you wrote and tried to answer specifically using quotes.
It's you that you don't give specific answers but rather respond with slogans claiming of "higher knowledge" about game costs....
About games, I wrote that each physical versions have a cost and require time to be assembled like an expansion does.
I have wrote that games are sold the price of the hardware used (ie Orion Prime and R-Type) so I think that is enough if you read that. :)
Well,i'm afraid we are talking different things here.
When i'm referring to games, i mean the game industry for mass market consoles and PC's, and not 2 game titles for cpc.... ::)
And obviously these 2 games can't be used as an "example" of cost/profit analysis for any mass market software (either a game or not), where box/packing for each game, costs almost nothing compared to the usual game price.
btw, how many physical versions you have sold? Since (if i'm not mistaken) you also give a direct download for the games, it would be interested to see how many choose to pay for having the box version.
Quote from: ikonsgr on 00:35, 12 July 18
Well,i'm afraid we are talking different things here.
When i'm referring to games, i mean the game industry for mass market consoles and PC's, and not 2 game titles for cpc.... ::)
And obviously these 2 games can't be used as an "example" of cost/profit analysis for any software (either a game or not).
And why speaking about things not related to CPC here? ???
I give examples to compare CPC hardware time/cost and CPC software time/cost to let you understand why it is false to argue that hardware must does profits.
And I don't see why those two games can't be used as "example", except because they proof that some peoples does things for hobby and others for business...
Well, in that case, i must say that it's YOUR choice to give the games in a box version (with or without profit, personally i will find it perfect "comunity servicable",even if you had a profit, after all, writing g disc and packing the game needs some time and effort too), you can still give the game "effortless and cost free", through a weblink!
But with hardware, you DONT have this choice, you can't "download" a board through a web link! ;) .
btw, how many physical versions you have sold? Since (if i'm not mistaken) you also give a direct download for the games, it would be interested to see how many choose to pay for having the box version.
Quote from: ikonsgr on 00:51, 12 July 18btw, how many physical versions you have sold? Since (if i'm not mistaken) you also give a direct download for the games, it would be interested to see how many choose to pay for having the box version.
135 box versions of the game. Each sold "9.90€ + shipping". The download link and the source code was provided 2 month before.
(the package include cristal box, professional cover, manual and labels, 3" Amsoft floppy + blister insert, mem-card , badge and poster (30 only))
I don't said that peoples don't have to made profits, but they must be limited to donations or security margin. Else, you open the Pandora's box.
You say that again... Check amiga community to see "pandora's box" opened.
Reselling and reselling and reselling of hardware in constantly bigger and bigger prices (to gain "easy money"-profit), has lead amiga market to be worst than drug market...
Only in recent years, and with the effort of some good guys who design new hardware and NOT selling it in ridiculous high prices, things seemed a bit better today...
Maybe that's why you are so sensitive about profits and the desire to protect "service community" in CPC world... :)
In any case,i think that we have to distinguish a designer who makes and sell hardware for profit from someone who just REsell hardware for profit.
Having a few euros profit for a 20-25 minutes work of assembling/testing/packing a board , i would still consider it as "community service", don't you agree?
The Amiga community started like that... Amstrad begins! :-\
I agree to pay assembling (parts for boards or games) if it not cost more than the price of those parts.
An other example is the "MSX + MX4" slot boards sold 35€ ... Why? Assembling cost 20€?
All those new boards are business and CPC peoples have now to deal with that.
Quote from: ikonsgr on 00:01, 12 July 18
So, in 2 words, in order to have commercial success with any of your project, first you must design something that relatively many people, might want it, and maybe most importantly, sell it at the lowest price you can! (mind also that selling at prices of more than 20$-25$ reduce a lot the potential selling rates, unless the item is something really needed by a lot of people)
Good advice, and actually, I bought some of your stuff on Ebay before, so it must be useful what you are building, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it!! ;) Congrats!!
Yes, it is just that what I am building is mainly driven by my own needs and interests (ie, look at my obsessively annoying thread about getting my the DDI3 connected "the right way" to my 464... I know that kind of obsession can easily pi$$ of other people here, one might even start to whine about it :laugh: )
And then ... speech synthesis I am just a fan of. But I can see that not many people care about that.
Quote from: ikonsgr on 01:23, 12 July 18
You say that again... Check amiga community to see "pandora's box" opened.
Reselling and reselling and reselling of hardware in constantly bigger and bigger prices (to gain "easy money"-profit), has lead amiga market to be worst than drug market...
I just paid 35 EUR for a Super Denise... was I ripped of? Maybe. But then, this is my hobby, and I don't expect everything there to be as cheap as possible.
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 01:43, 12 July 18I just paid 35 EUR for a Super Denise... was I ripped of? Maybe. But then, this is my hobby, and I don't expect everything there to be as cheap as possible.
Nice... Next time, ask me it will cost 5 EUR (PAULA too) because the guy selling them to you put 30 EUR into their pocket buying them in China... Business for nerds.
Quote from: ikonsgr on 00:21, 12 July 18
Then you will just cover your expenses for the 10 kits. But,how exactly you will do that?
I could have produced LambdaSpeak for cheaper if I had dared to order larger (> 10) quantities of supplies / parts, i.e., the click! speech board. However, this would have also meant financial ruin :-[ ??? ::) and I would be even larger in debt.
Quote from: TotO on 01:34, 12 July 18
An other example is the "MSX + MX4" slot boards sold 35€ ... Why? Assembling cost 20€?
All those new boards are business and CPC peoples have now to deal with that.
So maybe i could too sell the serial port interface for 35euros, 10 for parts, 5 for postage and 20 for assembling then? :P
Seriously now, i really want for the serial port to be as cheap as it can be (so that many people might want to try it , in order to establish a base for further development) so i could sell it for ~10-11 pounds
Development and assembly takes time, and your time is worth something. You're under no obligation to work for free, just because someone else says you should.
It's also fine to give that time away, if you're doing it in exchange for something else - whether that be to get more units out in the wild, motivate others to donate their time in kind, or just for the enjoyment you're getting out of the task. But do it deliberately, or at some point it'll stop being fun and you'll kick yourself for wasting all that time and getting nothing for it.
If you can't sell the product for what it costs (not just the part cost, but the *entire* cost of production, including your time) then it's not viable anyway and you shouldn't cut your own arm off to make it happen.
Quote from: pelrun on 02:29, 12 July 18
If you can't sell the product for what it costs (not just the part cost, but the *entire* cost of production, including your time) then it's not viable anyway and you shouldn't cut your own arm off to make it happen.
I agree, 35$ for the amsdap seems a fair price, that's not a lot of money to me,especially since the shipping could cost more than the device to japan (the MSXV9k shipping was $60), and it saves me $90 on the CPC-V9990... I would hope the developers are making some money, as I hope they will be incentivized to make new innovative things in the future.
I'd rather people have the ability to profit from their hardware, than someone wakes up with a great new idea... realizes it will take them tons of work, with no possibility of financial gain if they succeed, and decides not to create it... of course if someone overcharges for their hardware, not many people will buy it, and they will have no right to complain about it when they are stuck with stock no-one is interested in.
Quote from: TotO on 01:34, 12 July 18
I agree to pay assembling (parts for boards or games) if it not cost more than the price of those parts.
An other example is the "MSX + MX4" slot boards sold 35€ ... Why? Assembling cost 20€?
I also think 35 € is a fair price. This amounts to $ 41
LambdaBoard with 3 MX4 slots and PCB edge is 49.99 $, but again this includes shipping of 14 $
and a cable of choice (either centronics or edge), so it is not more expensive than Mother X4 if you ask me.
A single centronics plug for crimping easily costs 5 $
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CN-36-Pin-IDC-Male-Centronics-Connector-Printer-Flat-Ribbon-Cable-Adapter-2-54mm/321737466141?hash=item4ae90c211d:g:~aEAAOSwAHtaSvbX (https://www.ebay.com/itm/CN-36-Pin-IDC-Male-Centronics-Connector-Printer-Flat-Ribbon-Cable-Adapter-2-54mm/321737466141?hash=item4ae90c211d:g:~aEAAOSwAHtaSvbX)
and also the edge connectors for the cable are kind of pricey:
https://www.amazon.com/PC-Accessories-Card-Connector-5-PACK/dp/B008U5WQ18 (https://www.amazon.com/PC-Accessories-Card-Connector-5-PACK/dp/B008U5WQ18)
Probably better sources exists, but especially the angled PCB edge connectors are quite difficult to get:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5pc-Industrial-Card-Edge-Slot-Socket-Connector-25x2P-50P-2-54mm-0-1-Right-Angle/130970278382?hash=item1e7e6fd9ee:g:kxAAAMXQHeBSEH~l (https://www.ebay.com/itm/5pc-Industrial-Card-Edge-Slot-Socket-Connector-25x2P-50P-2-54mm-0-1-Right-Angle/130970278382?hash=item1e7e6fd9ee:g:kxAAAMXQHeBSEH~l)
Mostly for shipping costs, also!
Quote from: keith56 on 02:40, 12 July 18
I agree, 35$ for the amsdap seems a fair price, that's not a lot of money to me,especially since the shipping could cost more than the device to japan (the MSXV9k shipping was $60), and it saves me $90 on the CPC-V9990... I would hope the developers are making some money, as I hope they will be incentivized to make new innovative things in the future.
When I ship my boards to Japan, it cost me 6.50€ for standard parcel, 11.45€ for registered up to 250g and 14.50€ up to 500g.
So, understand that when you pay 60$ to ship a MSX V9000, there is already a problem. (except if you took a 24H EMS like express service)
The AMSDAP is no more than a MotherX4 with few decoding logic on the MSB bits as I have suggested to Prodatron to add MSX devices on CPC instead for wasting time to rebuild the existing from MSX to CPC (when they worked on their V9990 gfx board for SymbOS).
So, I don't see why it will have to be sold the price of a complex expansion using CPLD or MPU and development, when it is only an adapter...
You totaly confuse what you should pay for an usage and how much it cost. That is exactly what a commercial business does.
But, if you are all happy about that I will suggest to peoples programming on CPC to no more give games/softwares for free but trying to sold them to.
Quote from: TotO on 07:45, 12 July 18
When I ship my boards to Japan, it cost me 6.50€ for standard parcel, 11.45€ for registered up to 250g and 14.50€ up to 500g.
So, understand that when you pay 60$ to ship a MSX V9000, there is already a problem. (except if you took a 24H EMS like express service)
I stand corrected,my memory is failing me it looks like it was $35 dollars, still a significant percentage of the device, but not the figure I stated, was I happy about it? well I hardly jumped for joy, but as I suspect a few of the orders 'Go missing' (IE the recipient lies about them not turning up), they probably have to pay for proper international insurance.
but games or hardware alike, if you had a choice of only 10 being released for free/virtually no cost... or 30, most or all of which were commercial ones of the same or higher standard... which would you prefer?
I'd prefer more choice, If money is a limiting factor, people will choose wisely, and buy the most cost effective result... and the overpriced ones will get no sales or have to bring their prices down.
if there was a cheaper AMSDAP, or a cheaper CPC-V9K, I'd buy it, but there isn't, and I'd rather have the choice to buy a premium product than there be no option on the market - whether to take it or not, is up to the buyer.
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 07:09, 12 July 18
I also think 35 € is a fair price. This amounts to $ 41
LambdaBoard with 3 MX4 slots and PCB edge is 49.99 $, but again this includes shipping of 14 $
and a cable of choice (either centronics or edge), so it is not more expensive than Mother X4 if you ask me.
A single centronics plug for crimping easily costs 5 $
You said that because it match with your prices...
The MotherX4 + cable (edge or centronics) is:
- 9.90€ (KIT that I assemble if I got the time) + 4.90€ = 14.80€ (17$)
- 14.90€ (always assembled) + 4.90€ = 19.80€ (23$)
To that you add 3.90€ for priority mail shipping or 7.90€ for registered mail.
We are very far than 50$ including shipping. Because
as you said previously, the extra money allow you to buy some hardware for next projects.
Peoples buying your adapters pay for your future oscilloscope, logic analyser, ... May be in the goal to do better boards on other computers. ;D
Definitively, you are all not credible. You spoke in a same way because you want all a part of the CPC cake.
I can't said to not do that, because it looks that peoples are happy with giving their money without knowlage about the real cost.
It is why into the past I have created centpourcent.net to offer expansions at the good price (ie: 20€ a ROM board not 80€).
I have though that peoples understood... Look to be not the case... May be I should be back to refresh the memory, if the joke restart!
Quote from: keith56 on 08:03, 12 July 18if there was a cheaper AMSDAP, or a cheaper CPC-V9K, I'd buy it, but there isn't, and I'd rather have the choice to buy a premium product than there be no option on the market - whether to take it or not, is up to the buyer.
I have expected the AMSDAP was a cool 20€ MotherX4 replacement board, not 35€... I regret to spoke about "how to do" to see it was for making money. I can't fight against peoples business, because I have already given 5 years of free time to show the example (Duke & gerald does) and everybody forgot and restart to do easy cash.
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 07:09, 12 July 18also the edge connectors for the cable are kind of pricey:
https://www.amazon.com/PC-Accessories-Card-Connector-5-PACK/dp/B008U5WQ18 (https://www.amazon.com/PC-Accessories-Card-Connector-5-PACK/dp/B008U5WQ18)
That is a pack of 5 connectors, so it is not so expensive 1.97$ each. ;D
Quote from: TotO on 08:16, 12 July 18
because I have already given 5 years of free time
It's pretty clear to me, and I hope everyone else, that you've put a huge amount of work into hardware development for the benefit of the community, and it was clear from the prices you sell your hardware and R-type game that you were making no money from it.
I would be happy to donate money, sign up to a patreon account, or fund a kickstarter you did, with no guarantee of any return at all, because it's clear your dedicated to producing hardware for the community... and it would be my pleasure to help fund any project you were working on.
on the flip side, If I buy a V9k for $100 or whatever, knowing the maker is commercial, I damn well expect it to turn up, and work as advertised when it does... and with so many famous 'crowdfuning shambles' I'm not willing to 'kickstart' any commercial projects any more, unless the creator has a reputation of 'genuine contribution' (free software or low cost hardware) and 'reliability' like yourself.
Thank you or your kind words. Sadly, I can't build all the expansions of the earth alone.
I have just expected that others does the same for our community, like Duke and gerald does.
When I does V9958 and V9990 prototype board on my CPC, some years ago the VDP cost me 5$ and 15$ respectively.
But, the V9990 price has really increased those last years because there is a business arount it. It is 30$ now.
So, I doubt that you could get it for less than 50/60$ today if I will start to build them.
Quote from: TotO on 08:58, 12 July 18
So, I doubt that you could get it for less than 50/60$ today if I will start to build them.
I was only using the V9k as an example, I was just saying, If you wanted donations for anything at any time, I'd be happy to give them.
on the subject of the V9K, Krakengraph V9990 are supposed to be bringing out a cheaper version (around $60):
https://www.msx.org/news/development/en/krakengraph-lite-v9990-cartridge-by-msxcalamar
Quote from: keith56 on 09:06, 12 July 18
I was only using the V9k as an example, I was just saying, If you wanted donations for anything at any time, I'd be happy to give them.
on the subject of the V9K, Krakengraph V9990 are supposed to be bringing out a cheaper version (around $60):
https://www.msx.org/news/development/en/krakengraph-lite-v9990-cartridge-by-msxcalamar (https://www.msx.org/news/development/en/krakengraph-lite-v9990-cartridge-by-msxcalamar)
So, it is a nice answer to the existing boards. (sad that CPC version was not made to allow to use one monitor with superimpose or video switching)
Quote from: TotO on 08:28, 12 July 18
That is a pack of 5 connectors, so it is not so expensive 1.97$ each. ;D
$9.85 + $26.13 shipping :o, so 7.20$ each ???
Quote from: SOS on 10:58, 12 July 18
$9.85 + $26.13 shipping :o , so 7.20$ each ???
This (https://www.ebay.ie/itm/10pc-IDC-Cable-type-Card-Edge-Slot-Socket-Connector-25x2P-50P-2-54mm-0-1-1A/141845860757?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649) is the cheapest i could find for 50pin Edge connectors for ribbon cable. Minimum order is 10 pcs for ~1.8$/piece, but if you get 2X10 drops to ~1.5$/piece.Of course, you will only need 10 or 20 pieces, if you desing and make boards that use this connector. Unfortunately if you want 1-2 pieces for DIY, it's rather difficult to find, and if manage to find any, they are sold in insane prices 5-10 times more expensive than getting lots of 5/10/20 pieces. Having said that, it's good to note also something, that nobody seemed to mention so far, COST OF PCBs! For the past year or so, i designed and give to a chinese pcb manufacturer ~dozen of different pcb boards for various projects i make and sell, and i can surely say to you that quantity of order can affect VERY much the price/pcb! For example, for a specific board, if i order 5 pieces, total cost (including making+shipping) would be ~4-5$/piece, for 10 pieces this drops to ~2.5$/piece, and for 50 pieces to ~1$/piece! So from 50 to 5 pieces order, price/piece increased fivefold! You might think that 3-4$ difference for a pcb is not very much, but if you consider that total price of this item is in the range of 10$-15$, it means that pcb costs goes for ~20%-25% of total price, so 3-4$ can affect VERY much the final cost and selling price! And the same goes for more epxensive bards too, a larger double side board that goes for~ 10$/piece (for 5pcs order), will drop to ~2-3$/piece for 50pcs order, and cost difference would be much more significant ~8$/piece! Unfortunately since the "Retro market" is rather small, i (and i'm sure others too) usually stick with low batch orders, of 5-20 at most, resulting in rather higher cost for the pcbs.
Quote from: SOS on 10:58, 12 July 18
$9.85 + $26.13 shipping :o , so 7.20$ each ???
Shipping are computed from USA to your countly. ;)
I don't know how much it is to USA, but I can imagine less and not proportional to the number ordered.
Quote from: ikonsgr on 11:46, 12 July 18
Having said that, it's good to note also something, that nobody seemed to mention so far, COST OF PCBs! For the past year or so, i designed and give to a chinese pcb manufacturer ~dozen of different pcb boards for various projects i make and sell, and i can surely say to you that quantity of order can affect VERY much the price/pcb! For example, for a specific board, if i order 5 pieces, total cost (including making+shipping) would be ~4-5$/piece, for 10 pieces this drops to ~2.5$/piece, and for 50 pieces to ~1$/piece! So from 50 to 5 pieces order, price/piece increased fivefold!
You might think that 3-4$ difference for a pcb is not very much, but if you consider that total price of this item is in the range of 10$-15$, it means that pcb costs goes for ~20%-25% of total price, so 3-4$ can affect VERY much the final cost and selling price! And the same goes for more epxensive bards too, a larger double side board that goes for~ 10$/piece (for 5pcs order), will drop to ~2-3$/piece for 50pcs order, and cost difference would be much more significant ~8$/piece!
Unfortunately since the "Retro market" is rather small, i (and i'm sure others too) usually stick with low batch orders, of 5-20 at most, resulting in rather higher cost for the pcbs.
Please... 10 PCB was around 10$ + 10$ shipping in 2017. So each PCB is 2$ per 10. I bought per 10.
Today, 10 PCB cost around 5$ + 10$ shipping. So each PCB is 1.5$ per 10 in 2018.
Like I said previously, when you sell one "MX1" edge adapter, you have already payed all your PCB. (at worst two)
And there are no interrest to only buy 5 of them, because it is the same price as 10 (and only save 2$ on shipping).
Quote from: ikonsgr on 11:46, 12 July 18
This (https://www.ebay.ie/itm/10pc-IDC-Cable-type-Card-Edge-Slot-Socket-Connector-25x2P-50P-2-54mm-0-1-1A/141845860757?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649) is the cheapest i could find for 50pin Edge connectors for ribbon cable. Minimum order is 10 pcs for ~1.8$/piece, but if you get 2X10 drops to ~1.5$/piece. Of course, you will only need 10 or 20 pieces, if you desing and make boards that use this connector. Unfortunately if you want 1-2 pieces for DIY, it's rather difficult to find, and if manage to find any, they are sold in insane prices 5-10 times more expensive than getting lots of 5/10/20 pieces.
If you only want 1 or 2, you just have to ask me...
The price is really competitive by 10 from this seller and should allow you to decrease your expansion price... or not. ;)
Quote from: TotO on 12:10, 12 July 18
Please... 10 PCB was around 10$ + 10$ shipping in 2017. So each PCB is 2$ per 10. I bought per 10.
Today, 10 PCB cost around 5$ + 10$ shipping. So each PCB is 1.5$ per 10 in 2018.
Like I said previously, when you sell one "MX1" edge adapter, you have already payed all your PCB. (at worst two)
And there are no interrest to only buy 5 of them, because it is the same price as 10 (and only save 2$ on shipping).
What kind of pcbs you are reffering to, what provider? Also, what size, how many layers or other characteristics? Is it specifically about the MX1 board?
In any case, i surely understand your concerns about the cpc community ,and not let it become... "amiga drug market" :) , but i think you can understand that anyone involved in this, spent money and time in order to offer each board, so you can't expect it to do it completely "for free".
I beleieve that charging 4-5 euros for 20-30 minutes work is really very close to "service comunity", unless you value your time for nothing...
Of course if someone's charge 20,30 or 50 euros for 20-30 minutes work (and this can be proved by facts), then i agree, this should NOT be acceptable, and should be criticized strongly, no matter if some (or many) are willing to be exploited by that person!
In 2 words,
making some profit for your time and work is perfectly moral and justifiable, but Communities of retro computers, are NOT "global markets", neither should become fields for "easy money" by anyone! ;)
Quote from: TotO on 12:16, 12 July 18
If you only want 1 or 2, you just have to ask me...
The price is really competitive by 10 from this seller and should allow you to decrease your expansion price... or not. ;)
I already bought 10pcs from him, and don't worry, as i already said, i'm willing to sell the serial port adapter really cheap,i estimate ~12-13euros, at that price, i don't suppose you can accuse me for making "easy money" from the community, right? :D
Quote from: ikonsgr on 13:24, 12 July 18
I beleieve that charging 4-5 euros for 20-30 minutes work is really very close to "service comunity"....
TotO would be driving a Ferrari with XMEM on the plates if that was the case :)
Imo. people can charge whatever they want for their product, if people want to pay the price, it's up to them.
For a product to be successful, the price has to be right too, so in the end it will even out.
(http://image.jeuxvideo.com/images-sm/jaquettes/00026779/jaquette-outrun-turbografx-pc-engine-cover-avant-g.jpg)
Quote from: TotO on 08:28, 12 July 18
That is a pack of 5 connectors, so it is not so expensive 1.97$ each. ;D
Well, the point being, you make a cable for Mother X4 or LambdaBoard or Amsdap, you have to add another 7 $ in cost!
2 $ for this, or 5 $ centronics crimp, about 3 $ for an IDE cable for the other end of the board to be cut in half, etc. It adds up.
Quote from: TotO on 08:10, 12 July 18
Definitively, you are all not credible. You spoke in a same way because you want all a part of the CPC cake.
As I said, the cake is so small and mostly eaten by people buying XMem and M4 and DDI3 that we would starve waiting for the cake :laugh: I rather work at McDonalds for big $$$ business 8)
Quote from: TotO on 12:10, 12 July 18
Please... 10 PCB was around 10$ + 10$ shipping in 2017. So each PCB is 2$ per 10. I bought per 10.
Today, 10 PCB cost around 5$ + 10$ shipping. So each PCB is 1.5$ per 10 in 2018.
When you discover Seeed or any other China-based cheap PCB manufacturer, yes.
I was originally using OshPark, since it is very beginner friendly, they have videos
etc. That was the only thing I knew - check out the prices there for 3 LambdaBoard
it is 56$.
Now that I am using Seeed I can reduce the prices of the PCBs drastically, but they are
not as nice as the OshPark ones. I will try to sell the OshPark PCBs I have first, and
then lower the price when I switch to the Seeed ones. Again, just to keep the balance.
I think you also need to give people the benefit of the doubt, Toto...
And, on a second though - is it really necessary for our beloved hobby that everything
needs to be as cheap as possible from China? Is that a good trend? Because your job
might be next (after OshPark goes out of business because everybody
of us is odering from Seeed instead now....) Hmm
I am also attaching one more, LambdaSpeak 195 and LambdaSpeak 199. Yes, I will
switch over to Seeed, even though I have doubts about the "go as cheap as possible
strategy". If it was groceries and/or pharmaceuticals that people are dependend on,
especially for low income or developing countries or the like, sure, I totally agree that
any unncessary money making would be shameful (even though companies ALSO have
to make profit in order to being able to fund the development of NEW pharmaceuticals
for example! we don't live in a socalist / communist world), but for our beloved hobby,
I always had the attitude that I am willing to spend an extra dollar or two. Is like having
an expensive oldtimer in the garage and saying that all your spar and new parts must
also come from China.
The same also applies to the other components.... sure, I can get everything for cheaperin larger quantities if I don't buy edge connectors etc. from Amazong and/or Ebay. But
this is a hobby, and not a large production center, and I don't have any experience nortime to optimize the production chain and cost that much. And I also don't want to. Ifsomeone points me to a much cheaper alternative, I'll happy to consider it, as with Seeed - learned about it from here. Only knew OshPark. I'll also look around for a bitmyself, but I don't spend hours sourcing for the best and cheapest place in China. It is a
hobby, I am spending my time and money to make something, and I expect that peoplethat understand that this is the case are not pushing and pressing me to squeeze the lastpenny out something which is really not that important or essential, it is a luxury geek item that is non-essential, like parts or add ons for an oldtimer in the garage. If you canafford that, then you can also affort a couple of extra $ to buy a part.
But I have switched to Seed now and will adjust the prices a bit based on that.
What's your PCB manufacturer, Toto?
PS Prices at OshPark get better if you switch to Medium Run, but then you need to buy 10 per order,
and that is high risk! I haven't sold 10 of anything I built yet. So I will be sitting on bunch of PCBs thatwere expensive and I don't need that many beer coasters.
So, short summary on my side:
I am in the process of learning how to do things a bit cheaper.
Maybe I'll also adjust my mindset a bit by not expecting to make
any (even MINIMAL) profit on these projects (overall, the profit has been negativeso far - but that's ok, it my hobby and I am learning something!)
However, if I am making less profit, I will also have less money tospend on other peoples DIY hardware extensions, and maybe I am not buying a new Amiga accelerator etc. In the end and everythingis so tight and cheap moneywise that nobody has any extra dollar any more,
only people in China, and that would also be a "pandoras box"for retro computer
DIY hardware development as well :)
Quote from: TotO on 08:10, 12 July 18
You said that because it match with your prices...
The MotherX4 + cable (edge or centronics) is:
- 9.90€ (KIT that I assemble if I got the time) + 4.90€ = 14.80€ (17$)
- 14.90€ (always assembled) + 4.90€ = 19.80€ (23$)
To that you add 3.90€ for priority mail shipping or 7.90€ for registered mail.
We are very far than 50$ including shipping. Because as you said previously, the extra money allow you to buy some hardware for next projects.
Peoples buying your adapters pay for your future oscilloscope, logic analyser, ... May be in the goal to do better boards on other computers. ;D
Definitively, you are all not credible. You spoke in a same way because you want all a part of the CPC cake.
So, here is the LambdaBOARD breakdown for OshPark (which I currenly still have PCBs for):
- 56.45 $ / 3 (see OshPark screenshot) = 18.81 $
- free shipping from the US via USPS = 14 $
- Centronics crimp plug = ~ 5 $
- IDE cable, also about ~ 5 $, for example, here
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CablesOnline-23inch-Internal-IDC-50-Pin-SCSI-Male-Female-Extension-Ribbon-Cable/280754237369?hash=item415e41afb9:g:iUMAAOSwuAVWznQO (https://www.ebay.com/itm/CablesOnline-23inch-Internal-IDC-50-Pin-SCSI-Male-Female-Extension-Ribbon-Cable/280754237369?hash=item415e41afb9:g:iUMAAOSwuAVWznQO)
- 3 female 2x25 headers : ~ 8 $
- 1 male IDC box header: ~ 2 $
Add this up: 2 + 8 + 5 + 5 + 14 + 18.81 = upps, its 52.81, not 49.99 $
Gosh, I am a terrible business man and capitalist....
So you see, with this kind of business model / production chain, I can't even make ANY profit on a LambdaBoard sold here:
https://www.sellmyretro.com/offer/details/lambdaboard-expander-32321 (https://www.sellmyretro.com/offer/details/lambdaboard-expander-32321)
So, YES, it IS community service. Acutally, yes, being able to make some extra money would be nice, as I said, to buy hardware and equipment for oscilloscope etc. But as you see, I am such a bad business man with my calculations, that is a dream! There IS no spoon (umm cake), sorry ;D
@TotO (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=290) it would be nice if you could acknowledge the correctness of this calculation...
I also find it a bit disturbing that I did not get any "Like", trying to bring up the real prices... if you can only get "Likes" from the community by squeezing out even more money, then maybe there is also something wrong with the mindset of the community, not only with mine? ;) Just a thought... I love the CPC community. But everybody has to be a little bit more mindful I think.
Quote from: Duke on 13:52, 12 July 18
Imo. people can charge whatever they want for their product, if people want to pay the price, it's up to them.
For a product to be successful, the price has to be right too, so in the end it will even out.
That's totally true. Unfortunately, hobbyist almost have no chance of producing something at a competitive price. I saw your's and @The Equalizor (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2279) 's lab, and you guys are basically pro's, at least judging from the equipment (and of course ALSO from the awesome quality and alien-like advancedness of your work!) So in a sense, you guys are also making it to difficult for hobby beginner amateur newbies like myself to sell something, because YOU ARE TO GOOD!! :laugh:
As much as I hate to weigh into this hardware bunfight, from my point of view, people will pay what they wanna pay for stuff. If it's too expensive they just won't buy it.
Nobody is making retro hardware to get rich, but profit isn't a dirty word, no one works for free unless they're volunteers in which case, good for them.
Its really easy for someone to break down the cost of a bit of hardware and then complain that people are being ripped off or whatever, but they haven't seen the 10 prototypes that had to be made, or the 4 hours a night for 2 months crafting the schematics, laying out the PCBs and then getting it made, parts sourced and then building it. If a product is too expensive, don't buy it. It's not complicated and if you can make it cheaper, then just do that.
As far as Duke's lab setup goes, I'd love to see that. As far as mine goes, I'm certainly not a pro but I have some nice stuff that I've collected over a few years and I can do some serious soldering :-) This is my hobby, keeps this old timers brain active.
I'm very grateful to my customers for believing in my products, making me some pocket money, getting my boards out there (Some have gone as far afield as Australia and California!) and giving me some reasons to continue doing this stuff.
Rob
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 17:47, 12 July 18
So in a sense, you guys are also making it to difficult for hobby beginner amateur newbies like myself to sell something
You will have to be innovative. Making std. peripherals as adapters, ram and rom boards, it's quite hard to compete with TotO, who's too cheap :P
LambdaSpeak was a good idea, it could probably sell ok, but at a completely different price range imo. I know it's not possible in it's current shape, maybe not solveable.
There's plenty of other things that could be made for CPC, that could sell well.
Ie. do a proper USB pcb for the joystick port, so you could use modern USB mice (wireless aswell) instead of ps/2 and amiga/atari and usb gamepads aswell.
Fun project for an AVR programmer, maybe...
As for liking your post with the costs, I never questioned it, I don't care and tbh. there should be no need to disclose the cost.
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 17:47, 12 July 18
Unfortunately, hobbyist almost have no chance of producing something at a competitive price.
I have started to prototype expansions on CPC for my own usage, because the existing was no more available (CPC Booster) or expensive (MegaFlash).
So, my goal was to learn about CPC hardware and find good places to buy PCB and parts. It was my hobby and no idea in mind to sell what I was doing.
My first contact with local PCB "manufacturer" offered 5pcs for 49€. For me it looked strange because the manufacturing delay was 3 weeks...
I understood they bought them in China, so I can do that myself. iTeadStudio was the leader at this time and 10 PCB was sold 25$ incuding shipping.
About parts, I was using Farnell, I have changed to Mouser when peoples started to ask for boards, because free fast Fedex international shipping from 50€.
My first MiniBooster cost around 50$ including the 10 PCB. That is not a problem at all and I haven't asked to peoples to pay for my hobby.
Next, after the ReSeT event, friends asked me to have one. I have sold the 9 others to them and automaticaly the price, dropped to around 20$.
So, I have not asked to each of them to pay 50$ like me... (I was able to won 270$ in this case, but I don't... Easy cash here, if all the boards are sold)
Next, I have worked on a ROM board... But Pulko was just releasing the Flash Gordon for 15€. So, I bough his board. 8)
At the next ReSeT, I spoke with the Vanity group and they said that will be great to have a RAM expansion for their futur tool on CPC. (OrgAms)
That is an other story, but the idea is: Doing boards because peoples ask for that. Open preorder to know the quantity to build...
What I can said is, you are trying to sold your adapters like each was the only one. Sorry, that can't work.
Probably you buy things too expensive and you are afraid to lost money because you don't know where you go.
As Duke said, you can do like you want, but you have to find the good price to have a succes.
I have made prototypes that are not viable because the price was not good... I have not released them. You LambdaSpeak is like that.
For information, I have not released my own speach syntheziser compatible with TechniMusique at this time because you show me your cool board.
I have not wanted that you think that I'm releasing a 25€ board to kill your 120$ project at this time if you have engaged money on it.
Quote from: Duke on 18:43, 12 July 18
LambdaSpeak was a good idea, it could probably sell ok, but at a completely different price range imo. I know it's not possible in it's current shape, maybe not solveable.
There's plenty of other things that could be made for CPC, that could sell well.
I am working on AmJet now... that'll be much cheaper! $ 40 / 45 $.
Weird sounding robotic speech synthesizers are cooler anyway IMHO 8)
I guess I will also be able to get Amdrum into AmJet.
Michael
Quote from: TotO on 19:34, 12 July 18
For information, I have not released my own speach syntheziser compatible with TechniMusique at this time because you show me your cool board.
I have not wanted that you think that I'm releasing a 25€ board to kill your 120$ project at this time if you have engaged money on it.
Thanks, that is very nice of you! Appreciate it.
And even if, you probably still should, because yours will be completely different, so why not?
LambdaSpeak also offers some features that yours would not have (i.e., SSA1, DKtronics emu, Amdrum emulation, DecTalk, AND last but not least, an AWESOME ROM FROM TFM, ...), and yours would offer features that LambdaSPeak doesn't have. So both might have their market! Or not ;)
I would even buy your TechnoMusic, if it would speak something besides French :) I probably have one of the largest collection of speech synthesizers for retro home computers on the world, so yours should be part of it!
Quote from: The Equalizor on 18:34, 12 July 18
.
Its really easy for someone to break down the cost of a bit of hardware and then complain that people are being ripped off or whatever, but they haven't seen the 10 prototypes that had to be made, or the 4 hours a night for 2 months crafting the schematics, laying out the PCBs and then getting it made, parts sourced and then building it. I
Gosh, indeed, you should see my PCB OshPark graveyard. Since I always had to order in multiples of 3, all the failed / imperfect PCBs are in a box, probably 30 or so. I must have lost a 1000 $ in PCBs to OshPark... well, it is "learning money".
Yup, I threw 40 or 50 boards away recently and they were shipped via DHL wgicht is 5 times the cost of the board, just for the shipping.... But the product I have now is damn near perfect so I'm happy.
Rob
Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
Quote from: The Equalizor on 19:56, 12 July 18
But the product I have now is damn near perfect so I'm happy.
Indeed, I am very much looking forward for my Deluxe from you being delivered soon!
It's been shipped so I think 5-7 days hopefully
Rob
Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
Quote from: TotO on 19:34, 12 July 18
That is an other story, but the idea is: Doing boards because peoples ask for that. Open preorder to know the quantity to build...
Good idea and approach in principle, but who on earth would ask me to do a board (I would ask Bryce or Duke or .... ) I am just an electronics newbie (that got his first CPC in 1985!) And, I am not really a "CPC Scene Guy", so I don't know any of you guys, really. Maybe over the years, this will change - but I am a bit cut off being in the US. So I guess being on the board here and working with TFM and Bryce is as good and "close to the scene" as it gets for me.
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 20:05, 12 July 18
Good idea and approach in principle, but who on earth would ask me to do a board (I would ask Bryce or Duke or .... ) I am just an electronics newbie (that got his first CPC in 1985!) And, I am not really a "CPC Scene Guy", so I don't know any of you guys, really. Maybe over the years, this will change - but I am a bit cut off being in the US. So I guess being on the board here and working with TFM and Bryce is as good and "close to the scene" as it gets for me.
You shoud start like others with a topic that explain the project you want to design.
Peoples will show their interrest by themselves. And you can show your progress first by prototyping.
At end, if your prototype work more or less, you can know about the price for a batch of 10pcs and open preorders.
If peoples are ok because your board is cool, others will contact you for a next batch and here we go!
Quote from: TotO on 20:13, 12 July 18
You shoud start like others with a topic that explain the project you want to design.
Peoples will show their interrest by themselves. And you can show your progress first by prototyping.
But in a sense, this what we did with LambdaSpeak, right? We got advice from Bryce, more and more iterations, still not cheap enough. Features were suggested by the community - for example, DKtronics mode and Amdrum emulation by zhulien. Anyhow, in the end after all the refactoring, and a year of engineering etc., it is still not cheap enough. But remember that the first version used the Emic 2, which is a 60 $ board left alone! Hence the original price of > 120 $. So we got it down by at least 60 $ for the kit, which is quite good I think.
Maybe Bryce will find some time at some point to do the LambdaSpeak 2.0 SMD version with reduced chip count, but even Bryce was skeptical that it can be made cheaper than current LS 1.95 price, so I think we scrapped that plan altogether, and there will be no LambdaSpeak 2.0.
Quote from: Duke on 13:52, 12 July 18
Imo. people can charge whatever they want for their product, if people want to pay the price, it's up to them.
For a product to be successful, the price has to be right too, so in the end it will even out.
In general i would agree with that, but specifically for retro computer markets-communities,i must say, i object strongly! It was exactly this justification towards the attitude of:"seller has any right to sell at any price he wants" , that at one point, made the amiga market a feast for "easy money" (attracting many totally strangers to the amiga commuinity ,"seller"-vultures, who just "smelled" easy money), and exploitation of the few that had the bucks (and were willing-and stupid?- enough to be exploited by paying INSANE prices for hardware -at one point i remember some amiga accelerator to be sold up to 1500+$ ...) .This had DEVASTATING consequneces in the market, as it practically excluded most of the amiga hobbists (that obviously couldn't afford for the ridiculous high prices for hardware), and thus converting something that ought to be a fairly priced tool for the retro computer hobbyist and enthusiast, to a petty means for vanity satisfaction and social recognition for the rich... Amiga hardware became somewhat like an i-phone, a status for the "Retro-geek" society... :) In the end,i believe that, this matter has to do, NOT only with anyone's "rights" but also with the moral of things, if you start with the seemingly "innocent and logic" tollerance and acceptance of a seller that obviously goes for "easy money", you will surely end up to a "drag market" for the few. Of course amstrad's community is far smaller and so with far less potential of attracting "vultures", still i felt the need of stating that.... ::)
Quote from: Duke on 18:43, 12 July 18
Ie. do a proper USB pcb for the joystick port, so you could use modern USB mice (wireless aswell) instead of ps/2 and amiga/atari and usb gamepads aswell.
For the usb joystick/gamepads adapter for 9pin atari port , i tried that, but unfortunately even at prices of ~20euros (e.g. sell with marginally loss, and when competitive products were sold at 35+euros) i couldn't sell more than 1-2/motnh. So, either the price is too big for such an adapter, or (and i think, this is more the case) ,there is no big interest in such adapters, very few retro computer enthusiasts/hobbyists/users, have, or willing to use a usb gamepad with their amiga, atari st,c64 etc, at least for now (maybe in a few years things will change...) :)
As for the usb mouse adapter, i'm afraid there is already a rather large offer of quite some designers/sellers, with very decent prices, so little room for that too i'm afraid.... ::)
Quote from: ikonsgr on 21:44, 12 July 18
For the usb joystick/gamepads adapter for 9pin atari port , i tried that, but unfortunately even at prices of ~20euros (e.g. sell with marginally loss, and when competitive products were sold at 35+euros) i couldn't sell more than 1-2/motnh. So, either the price is too big for such an adapter, or (and i think, this is more the case) ,there is no big interest in such adapters, very few retro computer enthusiasts/hobbyists/users, have, or wiiling to use a usb gamepad with their amiga, atari st,c64 etc :)
As for the usb mouse adapter, i'm afraid there is already a rather large offer of quite some designers/sellers, with very decent prices, so little room for that too i'm afraid.... ::)
I could be wrong of course :) - But for me, it seems good joysticks are getting hard to find and expensive (competetion pro anyone?), but there is lots of good (and cheap) USB gamepads.
As for USB mouse, I don't think true USB mouse via joystick port exists for CPC (it has to be PS/2 compatible), it may have less interest as not much software needs it.
You have a link for your USB gamepad to joystick adapter? - Don't think I've seen it.
Quote from: ikonsgr
In general i would agree with that, but specifically for retro computer markets-communities,i must say, i object strongly!
It was exactly this justification towards the attitude of:"seller has any right to sell at any price he wants" , that at one point, made the amiga market a feast for "easy money" (attracting many totally strangers to the amiga commuinity ,"seller"-vultures, who just "smelled" easy money), and exploitation of the few that had the bucks (and were willing-and stupid?- enough to be exploited by paying INSANE prices for hardware -at one point i remember some amiga accelerator to be sold up to 1500+$ ...) .This had DEVASTATING consequneces in the market, as it practically excluded most of the amiga hobbists (that obviously couldn't afford for the ridiculous high prices for hardware), and thus converting something that ought to be a fairly priced tool for the retro computer hobbyist and enthusiast, to a petty means for vanity satisfaction and social recognition for the rich... Amiga hardware became somewhat like an i-phone, a status for the "Retro-geek" society...
I haven't been following Amiga or other scenes closely, but to me it would seem that such high prices would indeed create a market for fair priced products most people can afford, even if it had to be less spec'ed than the higher priced ones.
Ie. C64 has something called "1541-ultimate" which is a bit pricey (but awsome specs) and there's SD2IEC which is fairly cheap. I think SD2IEC is more popular/sold.
Quote from: Duke on 21:53, 12 July 18
As for USB mouse, I don't think true USB mouse via joystick port exists for CPC (it has to be PS/2 compatible), it may have less interest as not much software needs it.
I make and sell a cheap adapter (https://www.ebay.ie/itm/273069157318?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649) to use any amiga/atari st mouse as joystick. But in order to use it with amstrad (as any adapter too), you will also need this (https://www.ebay.ie/itm/272826287625?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649) adapter too, as cpc's joy port doesn't provide the required 5volt for the adapter to function.Quote from: Duke on 21:53, 12 July 18
You have a link for your USB gamepad to joystick adapter? - Don't think I've seen it.
This (https://www.ebay.ie/itm/272434403432?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649) was the link of the usb joy/gamepad i had on ebay. I used this board (http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/usb-host-mini) to make the "hard and dirty" job of usb hosting, and attach a small pic mcu to the serial output of it, in order to convert it to joystick signals. As you can see, i made pretty extensive tests with many usb gamepads/joysticks but unfortunately the project was a "comercial disaster". :) I had to sell with a bit of loss, in order to "get rid" of the usb host adapters, and still, took me ~year to "get rid" of 20 items!
Quote from: Duke on 22:01, 12 July 18
Ie. C64 has something called "1541-ultimate" which is a bit pricey (but awsome specs) and there's SD2IEC which is fairly cheap. I think SD2IEC is more popular/sold.
Well, the "secret" is how exactly you define "pricy". In case of serious amiga hardware (mostly accelerators and ram expansions), we were not talking for 30,40, or 50euros. Not even 100 or 200 euros. We were talking of 500,600, 1000+ euros! :o Forunately in recent years, some amiga hardware designers emerge with very good hardware and decent prices, so the "time of the vultures" seemed to ended. I guess, the situation ended up like you said, "would seem that such high prices would indeed create a market for fair priced products most people can afford," :)
Quote from: ikonsgr on 22:06, 12 July 18
I make and sell a cheap adapter (https://www.ebay.ie/itm/273069157318?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649) to use any amiga/atari st mouse as joystick. But in order to use it with amstrad (as any adapter too), you will also need this (https://www.ebay.ie/itm/272826287625?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649) adapter too, as cpc's joy port doesn't provide the required 5volt for the adapter to function.
This (https://www.ebay.ie/itm/272434403432?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649) was the link of the usb joy/gamepad i had on ebay. I used this board (http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/usb-host-mini) to make the "hard and dirty" job of usb hosting, and attach a small pic mcu to the serial output of it, in order to convert it to joystick signals. As you can see, i made pretty extensive tests with many usb gamepads/joysticks but unfortunately the project was a "comercial disaster". :) I had to sell with a bit of loss, in order to "get rid" of the usb host adapters, and still, took me ~year to "get rid" of 20 items!
Pretty neat, didn't know about that USB host do it all chip. Sorry to hear it failed selling.
Good I left mine on the drawing board then :)
Well, if you can sell it at ~15euros (and ofcourse have some profit too at this price), might worth a try!
I remember that when i sell my adapter ~25euros,i didn't sell almost nothing. It had to drop to ~22euros to sell ~1/month, and only when i dropped it to 19.5euros, i managed to sell ~15pcs in ~4-5 months!
Quote from: ikonsgr on 22:27, 12 July 18
Well, if you can sell it at ~15euros (and ofcourse have some profit too at this price), might worth a try!
I remember that when i sell my adapter ~25euros,i didn't sell almost nothing. It had to drop to ~22euros to sell ~1/month, and only when i dropped it to 19.5euros, i managed to sell ~15pcs in ~4-5 months!
It could, probably less too. But you know too many projects, so thought it might be an idea for someone else ;)
Quote from: ikonsgr on 21:33, 12 July 18
"seller"-vultures, who just "smelled" easy money), and exploitation of the few that had the bucks (and were willing-and stupid?- enough to be exploited by paying INSANE prices for hardware -at one point i remember some amiga accelerator to be sold up to 1500+$
I had no idea that it had gotten that bad on Ebay in the meantime... I bought my Blizzard 1230-V for the Amiga 1200 in 2002 or so, and then it was 140 EUR I believe. I no longer have the 1200, but I just got myself an Amiga 500 with an ACA500Plus and the budget accelerator ACA1221ec. And they are very fairly priced, even though this is a company (somehwere they also say on their website that one does not need to pay these "vulture prices" on Ebay for an accelerator card). One of my favorite retro computer companies:
https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/news.html (https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/news.html)
You probably know them anyway. Great company, and even Jeri Ellsworth worked with them at some point. I have no relationship with the company whatsoever. Just a fan / customer. So, there are still fair companies around for the Amiga that make great products AND have very fair prices and ethics / moral and are also making profit it seems (ACA500plus and accelerator are already sold out again).
Indy are a bit pricy too (and most of their hardware unavailable too,at least for now that i've checked :) ), but ofcourse nothing like of the "free amiga market" previously described.
The problem i think (besides the "useful morons"-buyers with big bucks, as, they are the ones, who "permitted" the vultures to make easy money and destroy the amiga market ... ::) ), was created when, a significant number of "vultures" intervene in the usual exchange of amiga hardware between amiga hobbiysts. For years,the relative few who are interested in amiga hardware, exchange it, in fair prices, as almost noone of them was interested in making "Easy money", so price "inflation" was relative small (reselling of an item was made after years of usage and many times in the same price it was bought,maybe a bit higher). But ,as the years passed, more and more vultures came in the market, destroying this situation bit by bit, as the only thing they constantly did, was: buy some hardware, and INSTANTLY resell it in fairly higher price!(i personally witnessed this phenomenon, quite a few times ,on various amiga forums in the past). So, more and more amiga hardware ended up in the hands of vultures at increasingly higher prices!
And because their numbers amongst true amiga hobbiysts was constantly rising, we ended up to a situation were very often, the reselling of an item was made between two "vultures", leading ofcourse to a very rapid raise in prices of hardware! And to make things even worst, many amiga forums, instead of crticize or even ban these vultures ,in order to protect the community, they did EXACTLY the opposite, by "Defending seller rights", and "punishing" anyone complained.... :(
So, now i think you can understand why a board that you bought for 100$ in 2002 might be cost 500$ ,600$ or even 1000$ after 10-12 years (btw the same thing happened with cheaper hardware too, maybe in smaller degree though, you bought an adapter for 20$-30$ and after a few years the same adapter costed 50$ or 60$)
And this is what happens in a community (and perhaps to the real society too...) when we only care about "seller rights" but NOT at all about moral obligations (of sellers AND buyers too)... :(
It is mainly why I have left the Amiga community.