Author Topic: Amstrad CPC Expansion Port Raiser with multiple edge connectors, any interest?  (Read 3080 times)

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Offline TotO

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Well,i'm afraid we are talking different things here.
When i'm referring to games, i mean the game industry for mass market consoles and PC's, and not 2 game titles for cpc.... ::)
And obviously these 2 games can't be used as an "example" of cost/profit analysis for any software (either a game or not).


And why speaking about things not related to CPC here?  ???
I give examples to compare CPC hardware time/cost and CPC software time/cost to let you understand why it is false to argue that hardware must does profits.
And I don't see why those two games can't be used as "example", except because they proof that some peoples does things for hobby and others for business...
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Offline ikonsgr

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Well, in that case, i must say that it's YOUR choice to give the games in a box version (with or without profit, personally i will find it perfect "comunity servicable",even if you had a profit, after all, writing g disc and packing the game needs some time and effort too), you can still  give the game "effortless and cost free", through a weblink! 
  But with hardware, you DONT have this choice, you can't "download"  a board through a web link!  ;) .

btw, how many physical versions you have sold? Since (if i'm not mistaken) you also give a direct download for the games, it would be interested to see how many choose to pay for having the box version.

Offline TotO

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btw, how many physical versions you have sold? Since (if i'm not mistaken) you also give a direct download for the games, it would be interested to see how many choose to pay for having the box version.
135 box versions of the game. Each sold "9.90€ + shipping". The download link and the source code was provided 2 month before.
(the package include cristal box, professional cover, manual and labels, 3" Amsoft floppy + blister insert, mem-card , badge and poster (30 only))


I don't said that peoples don't have to made profits, but they must be limited to donations or security margin. Else, you open the Pandora's box.
« Last Edit: 03:12, 12 July 18 by TotO »
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Offline ikonsgr

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You say that again... Check amiga community to see "pandora's box" opened.
Reselling and reselling and reselling of hardware in constantly bigger and bigger prices (to gain "easy money"-profit), has lead amiga market to be worst than drug market...
Only in recent years, and with the effort of some good guys who design new hardware and NOT selling it in ridiculous high prices, things seemed a bit better today...
Maybe that's why you are so sensitive about profits and the desire to protect "service community" in CPC world...  :)
In any case,i think that we have to distinguish a designer who makes and sell hardware for profit from someone who just REsell hardware for profit.
Having a few euros profit for a 20-25 minutes work of assembling/testing/packing a board , i would still consider it as "community service", don't you agree?
« Last Edit: 03:25, 12 July 18 by ikonsgr »

Offline TotO

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The Amiga community started like that... Amstrad begins!  :-\

I agree to pay assembling (parts for boards or games) if it not cost more than the price of those parts.
An other example is the "MSX + MX4" slot boards sold 35€ ... Why? Assembling cost 20€?

All those new boards are business and CPC peoples have now to deal with that.
« Last Edit: 03:41, 12 July 18 by TotO »
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Offline LambdaMikel

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So, in 2 words, in order to have commercial success with any of your project, first you must design something that relatively many people, might want it, and maybe most importantly, sell it at the lowest price you can! (mind also that selling at prices of more than 20$-25$ reduce a lot the potential selling rates, unless the item is something really needed by a lot of people)


Good advice, and actually, I bought some of your stuff on Ebay before, so it must be useful what you are building, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it!!  ;)  Congrats!!


Yes, it is just that what I am building is mainly driven by my own needs and interests (ie, look at my obsessively annoying thread about getting my the DDI3 connected "the right way" to my 464... I know that kind of obsession can easily pi$$ of other people here, one might even start to whine about it  :laugh:  )


And then ... speech synthesis I am just a fan of. But I can see that not many people care about that.

Offline LambdaMikel

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You say that again... Check amiga community to see "pandora's box" opened.
Reselling and reselling and reselling of hardware in constantly bigger and bigger prices (to gain "easy money"-profit), has lead amiga market to be worst than drug market...


I just paid 35 EUR for a Super Denise... was I ripped of? Maybe. But then, this is my hobby, and I don't expect everything there to be as cheap as possible.

Offline TotO

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I just paid 35 EUR for a Super Denise... was I ripped of? Maybe. But then, this is my hobby, and I don't expect everything there to be as cheap as possible.
Nice... Next time, ask me it will cost 5 EUR (PAULA too) because the guy selling them to you put 30 EUR into their pocket buying them in China... Business for nerds.
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Offline LambdaMikel

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Then you will just cover your expenses for the 10 kits. But,how exactly you will do that?


I could have produced LambdaSpeak for cheaper if I had dared to order larger (> 10) quantities of supplies / parts, i.e., the click! speech board. However, this would have also meant financial ruin  :-[   ???   ::)  and I would be even larger in debt.

Offline ikonsgr

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An other example is the "MSX + MX4" slot boards sold 35€ ... Why? Assembling cost 20€?
All those new boards are business and CPC peoples have now to deal with that.


So maybe i could too sell the serial port interface for 35euros, 10 for parts, 5 for postage and 20 for assembling then?  :P 
Seriously now, i really want for the serial port to be as cheap as it can be (so that many people might want to try it , in order to establish a base for further development) so i could sell it for ~10-11 pounds

Offline pelrun

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Development and assembly takes time, and your time is worth something. You're under no obligation to work for free, just because someone else says you should.

It's also fine to give that time away, if you're doing it in exchange for something else - whether that be to get more units out in the wild, motivate others to donate their time in kind, or just for the enjoyment you're getting out of the task. But do it deliberately, or at some point it'll stop being fun and you'll kick yourself for wasting all that time and getting nothing for it.

If you can't sell the product for what it costs (not just the part cost, but the *entire* cost of production, including your time) then it's not viable anyway and you shouldn't cut your own arm off to make it happen.
« Last Edit: 04:31, 12 July 18 by pelrun »

Offline keith56

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If you can't sell the product for what it costs (not just the part cost, but the *entire* cost of production, including your time) then it's not viable anyway and you shouldn't cut your own arm off to make it happen.
I agree, 35$ for the amsdap seems a fair price, that's not a lot of money to me,especially since the shipping could cost more than the device to japan (the MSXV9k shipping was $60), and it saves me $90 on the CPC-V9990... I would hope the developers are making some money, as I hope they will be incentivized to make new innovative things in the future.

I'd rather people have the ability to profit from their hardware, than someone wakes up with a great new idea... realizes it will take them tons of work, with no possibility of financial gain if they succeed, and decides not to create it... of course if someone overcharges for their hardware, not many people will buy it, and they will have no right to complain about it when they are stuck with stock no-one is interested in.
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Offline LambdaMikel

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I agree to pay assembling (parts for boards or games) if it not cost more than the price of those parts.
An other example is the "MSX + MX4" slot boards sold 35€ ... Why? Assembling cost 20€?
I also think 35 € is a fair price. This amounts to $ 41
LambdaBoard with 3 MX4 slots and PCB edge is 49.99 $, but again this includes shipping of 14 $
and a cable of choice (either centronics or edge), so it is not more expensive than Mother X4 if you ask me.
A single centronics plug for crimping easily costs 5 $
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CN-36-Pin-IDC-Male-Centronics-Connector-Printer-Flat-Ribbon-Cable-Adapter-2-54mm/321737466141?hash=item4ae90c211d:g:~aEAAOSwAHtaSvbX
 and also the edge connectors for the cable  are kind of pricey:


https://www.amazon.com/PC-Accessories-Card-Connector-5-PACK/dp/B008U5WQ18

Probably better sources exists, but especially the angled PCB edge connectors are quite difficult to get:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5pc-Industrial-Card-Edge-Slot-Socket-Connector-25x2P-50P-2-54mm-0-1-Right-Angle/130970278382?hash=item1e7e6fd9ee:g:kxAAAMXQHeBSEH~l
Mostly for shipping costs, also!

« Last Edit: 09:16, 12 July 18 by LambdaMikel »

Offline TotO

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I agree, 35$ for the amsdap seems a fair price, that's not a lot of money to me,especially since the shipping could cost more than the device to japan (the MSXV9k shipping was $60), and it saves me $90 on the CPC-V9990... I would hope the developers are making some money, as I hope they will be incentivized to make new innovative things in the future.

When I ship my boards to Japan, it cost me 6.50€ for standard parcel, 11.45€ for registered up to 250g and 14.50€ up to 500g.
So, understand that when you pay 60$ to ship a MSX V9000, there is already a problem. (except if you took a 24H EMS like express service)

The AMSDAP is no more than a MotherX4 with few decoding logic on the MSB bits as I have suggested to Prodatron to add MSX devices on CPC instead for wasting time to rebuild the existing from MSX to CPC (when they worked on their V9990 gfx board for SymbOS).

So, I don't see why it will have to be sold the price of a complex expansion using CPLD or MPU and development, when it is only an adapter...
You totaly confuse what you should pay for an usage and how much it cost. That is exactly what a commercial business does.

But, if you are all happy about that I will suggest to peoples programming on CPC to no more give games/softwares for free but trying to sold them to.
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Offline keith56

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When I ship my boards to Japan, it cost me 6.50€ for standard parcel, 11.45€ for registered up to 250g and 14.50€ up to 500g.
So, understand that when you pay 60$ to ship a MSX V9000, there is already a problem. (except if you took a 24H EMS like express service)

I stand corrected,my memory is failing me it looks like it was $35 dollars, still a significant percentage of the device, but not the figure I stated, was I happy about it? well I hardly jumped for joy, but as I suspect a few of the orders 'Go missing' (IE the recipient lies about them not turning up), they probably have to pay for proper international insurance.

but games or hardware alike, if you had a choice of only 10 being released for free/virtually no cost... or 30, most or all of which were commercial ones of the same or higher standard... which would you prefer?

I'd prefer more choice, If money is a limiting factor, people will choose wisely, and buy the most cost effective result... and the overpriced ones will get no sales or have to bring their prices down.

if there was a cheaper AMSDAP, or a cheaper CPC-V9K, I'd buy it, but there isn't, and I'd rather have the choice to buy a premium product than there be no option on the market - whether to take it or not, is up to the buyer.
« Last Edit: 10:07, 12 July 18 by keith56 »
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Offline TotO

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I also think 35 € is a fair price. This amounts to $ 41
LambdaBoard with 3 MX4 slots and PCB edge is 49.99 $, but again this includes shipping of 14 $
and a cable of choice (either centronics or edge), so it is not more expensive than Mother X4 if you ask me.
A single centronics plug for crimping easily costs 5 $

You said that because it match with your prices...

The MotherX4 + cable (edge or centronics) is:
- 9.90€ (KIT that I assemble if I got the time) + 4.90€ = 14.80€ (17$)
- 14.90€ (always assembled) + 4.90€ = 19.80€ (23$)

To that you add 3.90€ for priority mail shipping or 7.90€ for registered mail.
We are very far than 50$ including shipping. Because as you said previously, the extra money allow you to buy some hardware for next projects.
Peoples buying your adapters pay for your future oscilloscope, logic analyser, ... May be in the goal to do better boards on other computers.  ;D

Definitively, you are all not credible. You spoke in a same way because you want all a part of the CPC cake.
I can't said to not do that, because it looks that peoples are happy with giving their money without knowlage about the real cost.
It is why into the past I have created centpourcent.net to offer expansions at the good price (ie: 20€ a ROM board not 80€).

I have though that peoples understood... Look to be not the case... May be I should be back to refresh the memory, if the joke restart!
« Last Edit: 10:22, 12 July 18 by TotO »
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Offline TotO

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if there was a cheaper AMSDAP, or a cheaper CPC-V9K, I'd buy it, but there isn't, and I'd rather have the choice to buy a premium product than there be no option on the market - whether to take it or not, is up to the buyer.
I have expected the AMSDAP was a cool 20€ MotherX4 replacement board, not 35€... I regret to spoke about "how to do" to see it was for making money. I can't fight against peoples business, because I have already given 5 years of free time to show the example (Duke & gerald does) and everybody forgot and restart to do easy cash.
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Offline TotO

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also the edge connectors for the cable  are kind of pricey:


https://www.amazon.com/PC-Accessories-Card-Connector-5-PACK/dp/B008U5WQ18
That is a pack of 5 connectors, so it is not so expensive 1.97$ each.  ;D
« Last Edit: 10:45, 12 July 18 by TotO »
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Offline keith56

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because I have already given 5 years of free time
It's pretty clear to me, and I hope everyone else, that you've put a huge amount of work into hardware development for the benefit of the community, and it was clear from the prices you sell your hardware and R-type game that you were making no money from it.

I would be happy to donate money, sign up to a patreon account, or fund a kickstarter you did, with no guarantee of any return at all, because it's clear your dedicated to producing hardware for the community... and it would be my pleasure to help fund any project you were working on.

on the flip side, If I buy a V9k for $100 or whatever, knowing the maker is commercial, I damn well expect it to turn up, and work as advertised when it does... and with so many famous 'crowdfuning shambles' I'm not willing to 'kickstart' any commercial projects any more, unless the creator has a reputation of 'genuine contribution' (free software or low cost hardware) and 'reliability' like yourself.
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Offline TotO

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Thank you or your kind words. Sadly, I can't build all the expansions of the earth alone.
I have just expected that others does the same for our community, like Duke and gerald does.

When I does V9958 and V9990 prototype board on my CPC, some years ago the VDP cost me 5$ and 15$ respectively.
But, the V9990 price has really increased those last years because there is a business arount it. It is 30$ now.

So, I doubt that you could get it for less than 50/60$ today if I will start to build them.
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Offline keith56

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So, I doubt that you could get it for less than 50/60$ today if I will start to build them.

I was only using the V9k as an example, I was just saying, If you wanted donations for anything at any time, I'd be happy to give them.

on the subject of the V9K, Krakengraph V9990 are supposed to be bringing out a cheaper version (around $60):
https://www.msx.org/news/development/en/krakengraph-lite-v9990-cartridge-by-msxcalamar
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Offline TotO

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I was only using the V9k as an example, I was just saying, If you wanted donations for anything at any time, I'd be happy to give them.

on the subject of the V9K, Krakengraph V9990 are supposed to be bringing out a cheaper version (around $60):
https://www.msx.org/news/development/en/krakengraph-lite-v9990-cartridge-by-msxcalamar
So, it is a nice answer to the existing boards. (sad that CPC version was not made to allow to use one monitor with superimpose or video switching)
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Offline SOS

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That is a pack of 5 connectors, so it is not so expensive 1.97$ each.  ;D
$9.85  + $26.13 shipping  :o, so 7.20$ each  ???

Offline ikonsgr

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$9.85  + $26.13 shipping  :o , so 7.20$ each  ???

This is the cheapest i could find for 50pin Edge connectors for ribbon cable. Minimum order is 10 pcs  for ~1.8$/piece, but if you get 2X10 drops to ~1.5$/piece.
Of course, you will only need 10 or 20 pieces, if you desing and make boards that use this connector. Unfortunately if you want 1-2 pieces for DIY, it's rather difficult to find, and if manage to find any, they are sold in insane prices 5-10 times more expensive than getting lots of 5/10/20 pieces.
Having said that, it's good to note also something, that nobody seemed to mention so far, COST OF PCBs!  For the past year or so, i designed and give to a chinese pcb manufacturer ~dozen of different pcb boards for various projects i make and sell, and i can surely say to you that quantity of order can affect VERY much the price/pcb! For example, for a specific board, if i order 5 pieces, total cost (including making+shipping) would be ~4-5$/piece, for 10 pieces this drops to ~2.5$/piece, and for 50 pieces to ~1$/piece! So from 50 to 5 pieces order, price/piece increased fivefold!
You might think that 3-4$ difference for a pcb is not very much, but if you consider that total price of this item is in the range of 10$-15$, it means that pcb costs goes for ~20%-25% of total price, so 3-4$ can affect VERY much the final cost and selling price! And the same goes for more epxensive bards too, a larger double side board that goes for~ 10$/piece (for 5pcs order), will drop to ~2-3$/piece for 50pcs order, and cost difference would be much more significant ~8$/piece!
Unfortunately since the "Retro market" is rather small, i (and i'm sure others too) usually stick with low batch orders, of 5-20 at most, resulting in rather higher cost for the pcbs.
« Last Edit: 13:54, 12 July 18 by ikonsgr »

Offline TotO

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$9.85  + $26.13 shipping  :o , so 7.20$ each  ???
Shipping are computed from USA to your countly.  ;)
I don't know how much it is to USA, but I can imagine less and not proportional to the number ordered.

Having said that, it's good to note also something, that nobody seemed to mention so far, COST OF PCBs!  For the past year or so, i designed and give to a chinese pcb manufacturer ~dozen of different pcb boards for various projects i make and sell, and i can surely say to you that quantity of order can affect VERY much the price/pcb! For example, for a specific board, if i order 5 pieces, total cost (including making+shipping) would be ~4-5$/piece, for 10 pieces this drops to ~2.5$/piece, and for 50 pieces to ~1$/piece! So from 50 to 5 pieces order, price/piece increased fivefold!
You might think that 3-4$ difference for a pcb is not very much, but if you consider that total price of this item is in the range of 10$-15$, it means that pcb costs goes for ~20%-25% of total price, so 3-4$ can affect VERY much the final cost and selling price! And the same goes for more epxensive bards too, a larger double side board that goes for~ 10$/piece (for 5pcs order), will drop to ~2-3$/piece for 50pcs order, and cost difference would be much more significant ~8$/piece!
Unfortunately since the "Retro market" is rather small, i (and i'm sure others too) usually stick with low batch orders, of 5-20 at most, resulting in rather higher cost for the pcbs.
Please... 10 PCB was around 10$ + 10$ shipping in 2017. So each PCB is 2$ per 10. I bought per 10.
Today, 10 PCB cost around 5$ + 10$ shipping. So each PCB is 1.5$ per 10 in 2018.

Like I said previously, when you sell one "MX1" edge adapter, you have already payed all your PCB. (at worst two)
And there are no interrest to only buy 5 of them, because it is the same price as 10 (and only save 2$ on shipping).
« Last Edit: 14:44, 12 July 18 by TotO »
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