Amstrad CPC Expansion Port Raiser with multiple edge connectors, any interest?

[TotO]

This is the cheapest i could find for 50pin Edge connectors for ribbon cable. Minimum order is 10 pcs  for ~1.8$/piece, but if you get 2X10 drops to ~1.5$/piece. Of course, you will only need 10 or 20 pieces, if you desing and make boards that use this connector. Unfortunately if you want 1-2 pieces for DIY, it's rather difficult to find, and if manage to find any, they are sold in insane prices 5-10 times more expensive than getting lots of 5/10/20 pieces.

If you only want 1 or 2, you just have to ask me...
The price is really competitive by 10 from this seller and should allow you to decrease your expansion price... or not. 

[ikonsgr]

Please... 10 PCB was around 10$ + 10$ shipping in 2017. So each PCB is 2$ per 10. I bought per 10.
Today, 10 PCB cost around 5$ + 10$ shipping. So each PCB is 1.5$ per 10 in 2018.
Like I said previously, when you sell one "MX1" edge adapter, you have already payed all your PCB. (at worst two)
And there are no interrest to only buy 5 of them, because it is the same price as 10 (and only save 2$ on shipping).

  What kind of pcbs you are reffering to, what provider? Also, what size, how many layers or other characteristics? Is it specifically about the MX1 board?
In any case, i surely understand your concerns about the cpc community ,and not let it become... "amiga drug market"  , but i think you can understand that anyone involved in this, spent money and time in order to offer each board, so you can't expect it to do it completely "for free".
I beleieve that charging 4-5 euros for 20-30 minutes work is really very close to "service comunity", unless you value your time for nothing...
Of course if someone's charge 20,30 or 50 euros for 20-30 minutes work (and this can be proved by facts), then i agree, this should NOT  be acceptable, and should be criticized strongly, no matter if some (or many) are willing to be exploited by that person!
In 2 words, making some profit for your time and work is perfectly moral and justifiable, but Communities of retro computers, are  NOT "global markets", neither should become fields for "easy money" by anyone!     

[ikonsgr]

If you only want 1 or 2, you just have to ask me...
The price is really competitive by 10 from this seller and should allow you to decrease your expansion price... or not. 

I already bought 10pcs from him, and don't worry, as i already said, i'm willing to sell the serial port adapter really cheap,i estimate ~12-13euros, at that price, i don't suppose you can accuse me for making "easy money" from the community, right? 

[Duke]

I beleieve that charging 4-5 euros for 20-30 minutes work is really very close to "service comunity"....

TotO would be driving a Ferrari with XMEM on the plates if that was the case 

[Duke]

Imo. people can charge whatever they want for their product, if people want to pay the price, it's up to them.
For a product to be successful, the price has to be right too, so in the end it will even out.

[TotO]

[LambdaMikel]

That is a pack of 5 connectors, so it is not so expensive 1.97$ each. 

Well, the point being, you make a cable for Mother X4 or LambdaBoard or Amsdap, you have to add another 7 $ in cost!
2 $ for this, or 5 $ centronics crimp, about 3 $ for an IDE cable for the other end of the board to be cut in half, etc. It adds up.

[LambdaMikel]

Definitively, you are all not credible. You spoke in a same way because you want all a part of the CPC cake.

As I said, the cake is so small and mostly eaten by people buying XMem and M4 and DDI3 that we would starve waiting for the cake  I rather work at McDonalds for big $$$ business 

[LambdaMikel]

Please... 10 PCB was around 10$ + 10$ shipping in 2017. So each PCB is 2$ per 10. I bought per 10.
Today, 10 PCB cost around 5$ + 10$ shipping. So each PCB is 1.5$ per 10 in 2018.

When you discover Seeed or any other China-based cheap PCB manufacturer, yes.
I was originally using OshPark, since it is very beginner friendly, they have videos
etc. That was the only thing I knew - check out the prices there for 3 LambdaBoard
it is 56$.

Now that I am using Seeed I can reduce the prices of the PCBs drastically, but they are
not as nice as the OshPark ones. I will try to sell the OshPark PCBs I have first, and
then lower the price when I switch to the Seeed ones. Again, just to keep the balance.
I think you also need to give people the benefit of the doubt, Toto...

And, on a second though - is it really necessary for our beloved hobby that everything
needs to be as cheap as possible from China? Is that a good trend? Because your job
might be next (after OshPark goes out of business because everybody
of us is odering from Seeed instead now....) Hmm

I am also attaching one more, LambdaSpeak 195 and LambdaSpeak 199. Yes, I will
switch over to Seeed, even though I have doubts about the "go as cheap as possible
strategy". If it was groceries and/or pharmaceuticals that people are dependend on,
especially for low income or developing countries or the like, sure, I totally agree that
any unncessary money making would be shameful (even though companies ALSO have
to make profit in order to being able to fund the development of NEW pharmaceuticals
for example! we don't live in a socalist / communist world), but for our beloved hobby,
I always had the attitude that I am willing to spend an extra dollar or two. Is like having
an expensive oldtimer in the garage and saying that all your spar and new parts must
also come from China.

The same also applies to the other components.... sure, I can get everything for cheaperin larger quantities if I don't buy edge connectors etc. from Amazong and/or Ebay. But
this is a hobby, and not a large production center, and I don't have any experience nortime to optimize the production chain and cost that much. And I also don't want to. Ifsomeone points me to a much cheaper alternative, I'll happy to consider it, as with Seeed - learned about it from here. Only knew OshPark. I'll also look around for a bitmyself, but I don't spend hours sourcing for the best and cheapest place in China. It is a
hobby, I am spending my time and money to make something, and I expect that peoplethat understand that this is the case are not pushing and pressing me to squeeze the lastpenny out something which is really not that important or essential, it is a luxury geek item that is non-essential, like parts or add ons for an oldtimer in the garage. If you canafford that, then you can also affort a couple of extra $ to buy a part.
But I have switched to Seed now and will adjust the prices a bit based on that.

What's your PCB manufacturer, Toto?

[LambdaMikel]

PS Prices at OshPark get better if you switch to Medium Run, but then you need to buy 10 per order,
and that is high risk! I haven't sold 10 of anything I built yet. So I will be  sitting on bunch of PCBs thatwere expensive and I don't need that many beer coasters.

[LambdaMikel]

So, short summary on my side:
I am in the process of learning how to do things a bit cheaper.
Maybe I'll also adjust my mindset a bit by not expecting to make
any (even MINIMAL) profit on these projects (overall, the profit has been negativeso far - but that's ok, it my hobby and I am learning something!)

However, if I am making less profit, I will also have less money tospend on other peoples DIY hardware extensions, and maybe I am not buying a new Amiga accelerator etc. In the end and everythingis so tight and cheap moneywise that nobody has any extra dollar any more,
only people in China, and that would also be a "pandoras box"for retro computer
DIY hardware development as well     

[LambdaMikel]

You said that because it match with your prices...

The MotherX4 + cable (edge or centronics) is:
- 9.90€ (KIT that I assemble if I got the time) + 4.90€ = 14.80€ (17$)
- 14.90€ (always assembled) + 4.90€ = 19.80€ (23$)

To that you add 3.90€ for priority mail shipping or 7.90€ for registered mail.
We are very far than 50$ including shipping. Because as you said previously, the extra money allow you to buy some hardware for next projects.
Peoples buying your adapters pay for your future oscilloscope, logic analyser, ... May be in the goal to do better boards on other computers. 

Definitively, you are all not credible. You spoke in a same way because you want all a part of the CPC cake.

So, here is the LambdaBOARD breakdown for OshPark (which I currenly still have PCBs for):
- 56.45 $ / 3 (see OshPark screenshot) = 18.81 $
- free shipping from the US via USPS = 14 $
- Centronics crimp plug = ~ 5 $
-  IDE cable, also about ~ 5 $, for example, here

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CablesOnline-23inch-Internal-IDC-50-Pin-SCSI-Male-Female-Extension-Ribbon-Cable/280754237369?hash=item415e41afb9:g:iUMAAOSwuAVWznQO

- 3 female 2x25 headers : ~ 8 $
- 1 male IDC box header: ~ 2 $

Add this up: 2 + 8 + 5 + 5 + 14 + 18.81 = upps, its 52.81, not 49.99 $

Gosh, I am a terrible business man and capitalist....
So you see, with this kind of business model / production chain, I can't even make ANY profit on a LambdaBoard sold here:

https://www.sellmyretro.com/offer/details/lambdaboard-expander-32321


So, YES, it IS community service.

Acutally, yes, being able to make some extra money would be nice, as I said, to buy hardware and equipment for oscilloscope etc. But as you see, I am such a bad business man with my calculations, that is a dream! There IS no spoon (umm cake), sorry 

[LambdaMikel]

@TotO it would be nice if you could acknowledge the correctness of this calculation...


I also find it a bit disturbing that I did not get any "Like",  trying to bring up the real prices... if you can only get "Likes" from the community by squeezing out even more money, then maybe there is also something wrong with the mindset of the community, not only with mine?    Just a thought... I love the CPC community. But everybody has to be a little bit more mindful I think.

[LambdaMikel]

Imo. people can charge whatever they want for their product, if people want to pay the price, it's up to them.
For a product to be successful, the price has to be right too, so in the end it will even out.

That's totally true. Unfortunately, hobbyist almost have no chance of producing something at a competitive price. I saw your's and @The Equalizor 's lab, and you guys are basically pro's, at least judging from the equipment (and of course ALSO from the awesome quality and alien-like advancedness of your work!) So in a sense, you guys are also making it to difficult for hobby beginner amateur newbies like myself to sell something, because YOU ARE TO GOOD!! 

[The Equalizor]

As much as I hate to weigh into this hardware bunfight, from my point of view, people will pay what they wanna pay for stuff. If it's too expensive they just won't buy it.


Nobody is making retro hardware to get rich, but profit isn't a dirty word, no one works for free unless they're volunteers in which case, good for them.


Its really easy for someone to break down the cost of a bit of hardware and then complain that people are being ripped off or whatever, but they haven't seen the 10 prototypes that had to be made, or the 4 hours a night for 2 months crafting the schematics, laying out the PCBs and then getting it made, parts sourced and then building it. If a product is too expensive, don't buy it. It's not complicated and if you can make it cheaper, then just do that.


As far as Duke's lab setup goes, I'd love to see that. As far as mine goes, I'm certainly not a pro but I have some nice stuff that I've collected over a few years and I can do some serious soldering :-) This is my hobby, keeps this old timers brain active.


I'm very grateful to my customers for believing in my products, making me some pocket money, getting my boards out there (Some have gone as far afield as Australia and California!)  and giving me some reasons to continue doing this stuff.


Rob

[Duke]

So in a sense, you guys are also making it to difficult for hobby beginner amateur newbies like myself to sell something

You will have to be innovative. Making std. peripherals as adapters, ram and rom boards, it's quite hard to compete with TotO, who's too cheap
LambdaSpeak was a good idea, it could probably sell ok, but at a completely different price range imo. I know it's not possible in it's current shape, maybe not solveable.
There's plenty of other things that could be made for CPC, that could sell well.
Ie. do a proper USB pcb for the joystick port, so you could use modern USB mice (wireless aswell) instead of ps/2 and amiga/atari and usb gamepads aswell.
Fun project for an AVR programmer, maybe...

As for liking your post with the costs, I never questioned it, I don't care and tbh. there should be no need to disclose the cost.

[TotO]

Unfortunately, hobbyist almost have no chance of producing something at a competitive price.

I have started to prototype expansions on CPC for my own usage, because the existing was no more available (CPC Booster) or expensive (MegaFlash).
So, my goal was to learn about CPC hardware and find good places to buy PCB and parts. It was my hobby and no idea in mind to sell what I was doing.

My first contact with local PCB "manufacturer" offered 5pcs for 49€. For me it looked strange because the manufacturing delay was 3 weeks...
I understood they bought them in China, so I can do that myself. iTeadStudio was the leader at this time and 10 PCB was sold 25$ incuding shipping.
About parts, I was using Farnell, I have changed to Mouser when peoples started to ask for boards, because free fast Fedex international shipping from 50€.

My first MiniBooster cost around 50$ including the 10 PCB. That is not a problem at all and I haven't asked to peoples to pay for my hobby.
Next, after the ReSeT event, friends asked me to have one. I have sold the 9 others to them and automaticaly the price, dropped to around 20$.
So, I have not asked to each of them to pay 50$ like me... (I was able to won 270$ in this case, but I don't... Easy cash here, if all the boards are sold)

Next, I have worked on a ROM board... But Pulko was just releasing the Flash Gordon for 15€. So, I bough his board. 
At the next ReSeT, I spoke with the Vanity group and they said that will be great to have a RAM expansion for their futur tool on CPC. (OrgAms)
That is an other story, but the idea is: Doing boards because peoples ask for that. Open preorder to know the quantity to build...

What I can said is, you are trying to sold your adapters like each was the only one. Sorry, that can't work.
Probably you buy things too expensive and you are afraid to lost money because you don't know where you go.

As Duke said, you can do like you want, but you have to find the good price to have a succes.

I have made prototypes that are not viable because the price was not good... I have not released them. You LambdaSpeak is like that.
For information, I have not released my own speach syntheziser compatible with TechniMusique at this time because you show me your cool board.
I have not wanted that you think that I'm releasing a 25€ board to kill your 120$ project at this time if you have engaged money on it.

[LambdaMikel]

LambdaSpeak was a good idea, it could probably sell ok, but at a completely different price range imo. I know it's not possible in it's current shape, maybe not solveable.
There's plenty of other things that could be made for CPC, that could sell well.

I am working on AmJet now... that'll be much cheaper! $ 40 / 45 $.
Weird sounding robotic speech synthesizers are cooler anyway IMHO 
I guess I will also be able to get Amdrum into AmJet.


Michael

[LambdaMikel]

For information, I have not released my own speach syntheziser compatible with TechniMusique at this time because you show me your cool board.
I have not wanted that you think that I'm releasing a 25€ board to kill your 120$ project at this time if you have engaged money on it.

Thanks, that is very nice of you! Appreciate it.
And even if, you probably still should, because yours will be completely different, so why not?
LambdaSpeak also offers some features that yours would not have (i.e., SSA1, DKtronics emu, Amdrum emulation, DecTalk, AND last but not least, an AWESOME ROM FROM TFM, ...), and yours would offer features that LambdaSPeak doesn't have. So both might have their market! Or not   


I would even buy your TechnoMusic, if it would speak something besides French    I probably have one of the largest collection of speech synthesizers for retro home computers on the world, so yours should be part of it!

[LambdaMikel]

.
Its really easy for someone to break down the cost of a bit of hardware and then complain that people are being ripped off or whatever, but they haven't seen the 10 prototypes that had to be made, or the 4 hours a night for 2 months crafting the schematics, laying out the PCBs and then getting it made, parts sourced and then building it. I

Gosh, indeed, you should see my PCB OshPark graveyard. Since I always had to order in multiples of 3, all the failed / imperfect PCBs are in a box, probably 30 or so. I must have lost a 1000 $ in PCBs to OshPark... well, it is "learning money".

[The Equalizor]

Yup, I threw 40 or 50 boards away recently and they were shipped via DHL wgicht is 5 times the cost of the board, just for the shipping.... But the product I have now is damn near perfect so I'm happy.

Rob

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[LambdaMikel]

But the product I have now is damn near perfect so I'm happy.

Indeed, I am very much looking forward for my Deluxe from you being delivered soon!

[The Equalizor]

It's been shipped so I think 5-7 days hopefully

Rob

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[LambdaMikel]

That is an other story, but the idea is: Doing boards because peoples ask for that. Open preorder to know the quantity to build...

Good idea and approach in principle, but who on earth would ask me to do a board (I would ask Bryce or Duke or .... ) I am just an electronics newbie (that got his first CPC in 1985!) And, I am not really a "CPC Scene Guy", so I don't know any of you guys, really. Maybe over the years, this will change - but I am a bit cut off being in the US. So I guess being on the board here and working with TFM and Bryce is as good and "close to the scene" as it gets for me. 

[TotO]

Good idea and approach in principle, but who on earth would ask me to do a board (I would ask Bryce or Duke or .... ) I am just an electronics newbie (that got his first CPC in 1985!) And, I am not really a "CPC Scene Guy", so I don't know any of you guys, really. Maybe over the years, this will change - but I am a bit cut off being in the US. So I guess being on the board here and working with TFM and Bryce is as good and "close to the scene" as it gets for me.

You shoud start like others with a topic that explain the project you want to design.
Peoples will show their interrest by themselves. And you can show your progress first by prototyping.

At end, if your prototype work more or less, you can know about the price for a batch of 10pcs and open preorders.
If peoples are ok because your board is cool, others will contact you for a next batch and here we go!