newbie advice on co0mputers

[janecole]

Hi all,

I am thinking of buying a an amstrad but want max compatibility with tape and discs.

So,
1) which  model is best for tape games? 464 or 464+?
2) which  model is best for disc games?
NB for q2 am I better off getting a 6128 with built in drive or a 464 with external drive?
3) do all disc games eg those for 6128 work with 464 connected to drive?
4) do all tape  games eg those for 464 work with 6128 connected to external tape player? Does 6128 have tape input port?
5) is there a way of loading games from an external tape player into 464?(i want to use my laptop as tape source)
6) can a 3.5" drive be connected to 464 & 6128 as primary drive?
7) what are the specific part model/names I need to connect drive to 464 eg do i need to buy interface sepearately & if so what is name of this interface & is it easily available? What is name of most suitable drive?

can 464 and 6128 be connected to tv and do they need modulator? do these have rgb output?

Thanks in advance.

ps sorry if my questions sound daft but total newbie

[Bryce]

Hi janecole,
           That's quite a few quetions you have there, but here's the quick answers:

1) Both the same regarding games, but a 464+ has obviously cartridges games and other advantages.
2) The 6128+ is the best you can have.
- NB: 6128 is always better, you can easily and cheaply connect a tape to a 6128, but a disk drive for a 464 is more expensive.
3) No, some games require 128K which the 464 doesn't have without adding additional RAM.
4) Yes and Yes.
5) Not without adding the Tape input yourself (details in Wiki), the 464 doesn't have one normally.
6) On a 6128 yes, on a 464 you will need a modified DDI-1 to connect the drive.
7) DDI-1 is the disc interface, the original external 3in drive is called FD-1. For 3.5in most PC drives will work with minor modifications to enable the ready signal and density (details in Wiki).

Yes they can be connected to a TV with several different types of Modulator, or RGB to SCART (all details in the Wiki).

Oh, and welcome to the Forum.

Bryce.

[steve]

The amstrad 6128plus does not have a tape socket so you cannot load software from cassettes unless you modify the machine to add the tape socket, the CPC 6128 does have a tape socket but does not have a cartridge slot.

If you want to load software from your PC, then a CPC 6128 would be the best option with a GX4000 to play cartridge software. You could probably get both these machines easier and cheaper than trying to find an Amstrad 6128plus.

[awergh]

5) you can use one of these to load tapes from an external source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassette_tape_adaptor

[janecole]

Hi all,

Just lioke to say thanks for the warm welcome.

So to clarify, do both the 6128 and 464 have exactly the same os and cpu and the only difference is the tape and disc drives and memory?

I have experience of creating wav files on my pc for other systems but some games cannot be copied back to tape from wav due to deteroration in signal quality ie 2nd generation copy. Would the tape adapter mentioned by awergh not be a 2nd generation copy and therefore cause problems?

If the tape format (cdt i think) is converted to wav and this adapter is used what is the success rate of laoding a game successfully?

Also one a tape has been converted to cdt I otesume info is lost but because wave files are large its not practical to put them on a website. Therefore would it not be an idea for preservation purposes to have wav files created directly from original tapes for all tapes so that if originals to get damaged multiple digital formats(wav) can be made? If no one is willing to do this I am will to make wave files and store them on my hard drives for emergencies. Let me know.

Also are there any plans to upload IPF files on this site?

Jane

[Bryce]

Hi Janecole,
      the 464 has Basic 1.0, whereas the 6128 uses Basic 1.1 which has a few new commands that the 464 didn't have and the 6128 also has a second ROM (ROM 7) which contains all the DOS commands needed for the disc, but the CPU / speed etc is identical.

Can't help with the tape stuff, but I'm sure someone else will come with the answers you need...

Bryce.

[steve]

So to clarify, do both the 6128 and 464 have exactly the same os and cpu and the only difference is the tape and disc drives and memory?

The early CPC 464 had a different rom, but it does not really matter.

I have experience of creating wav files on my pc for other systems but some games cannot be copied back to tape from wav due to deteroration in signal quality ie 2nd generation copy. Would the tape adapter mentioned by awergh not be a 2nd generation copy and therefore cause problems?

If the tape format (cdt i think) is converted to wav and this adapter is used what is the success rate of laoding a game successfully?

If the program loads, then it should run without error.

Also one a tape has been converted to cdt I otesume info is lost but because wave files are large its not practical to put them on a website. Therefore would it not be an idea for preservation purposes to have wav files created directly from original tapes for all tapes so that if originals to get damaged multiple digital formats(wav) can be made? If no one is willing to do this I am will to make wave files and store them on my hard drives for emergencies. Let me know.

Also are there any plans to upload IPF files on this site?

Jane

I would think the best preservation media would be a flash memory card, or paper listing.

[MacDeath]

Hi and wellcome.

2 aspect are to be considered...

==PLUS and CPC"old" are really different machines.

wile CPC (old) clearly is the basis of the Amstrad 8 bit... PLUS' do have clearly a more powerfull Hardware under the pant.
As the PLUS cartridge system was recently "Hacked" it is just a matter of time and will for it to become a bit more used with modern productions.

==64k RAM or 128K RAM : 128K is clearly the best config...
And a good amount of "modern" stuffs are in 128K RAM+disk... = 6128.
Orion Prime and Batman demo being prime examples...


Also as you are in a modern world... Tape is not that relevant today.


Best Amstrad "Arnold" is Amstrad CPC6128... if you really want the access to the classical Amstrad library. Easy Disk drive access and also Tape Drive/MP3 audio files...(just find a good DIN5 and an audio jack plug...)

If you want to play the awesome Rick Dangerous 128+... and the few (25) cartridges games or PLUS' Demos... a good 6128PLUS is good too.

If you only want to run vintage stuffs, a good CPC464 can clearly be enough...
The Extra RAM (128K config) was rarely well used on CPC and most games will run in 64K (but sometimes with a few features removed, such as sound of monoloading...)

464PLUS is "rare" so not clearly cheap.
But both 464PLUS and 6128PLUS actually share the exact same motherboard, with only a few components missing, the slots are there on the board, up to you to craft a "complete" motherboard... (but can you find the missing chips ?)
perhaps easier to add Tape ona 6128PLUS than disk on a 464PLUS...

On the other hand, CPC464 (old) IS clearly the cheapest and easier model you may find... It can even be  supplied with both an external disk Drive and/or a colour monitor...(if lucky)
And shitton of disks/tapes...(or none, are you lucky ?)

But hey... downloading programs on the internet is fare from being a big deal nowadays.
And any good CPC6128 enables easily to get some cute and almost free (just cannibalize any good old PC) "modern" 3"1/2 disk drive working efficiently on it.


To be fair I would say just "get any working CPC with a colour monitor, 128K RAM + Disk drive being always better".

So aim for a CPC6128 with colour monitor first... a 6128PLUS is sweet too but not that easy to find unless you are french.

1) which  model is best for tape games? 464 or 464+?
no guenuine tape softs were reallly designed on PLUS...

2) which  model is best for disc games?
NB for q2 am I better off getting a 6128 with built in drive or a 464 with external drive?

CPC6128 or 6128PLUS...
664 is rarer so more expensive sometimes... also faulty keyboards...
6128PLUS often get compatibilities issues (not that often) be it with softwares (keyboard scan bug) or to get a 3"1/2 working on it.

3) do all disc games eg those for 6128 work with 464 connected to drive?
the Extra RAM is rarely that well used, but some issues are reported : a 6128 is not exactly like a 464+disk drive+extended RAM... for some softwares...

4) do all tape  games eg those for 464 work with 6128 connected to external tape player? Does 6128 have tape input port?
Yes, I suppose.
But why stick to tapes if you can use 3"1/2 disks..?

5) is there a way of loading games from an external tape player into 464?(i want to use my laptop as tape source)
yes, you can also get some modern pseudo tape/digital converter...
Or simply re-plug the proper wires with a simple jack plug... hackstrad...

6) can a 3.5" drive be connected to 464 & 6128 as primary drive?
Easier on a CPC6128 or CPC664... 6128PLUS are quite more difficult if you want the 3"1/2 disk drive to be the primary disk drive...

7) what are the specific part model/names I need to connect drive to 464 eg do i need to buy interface sepearately & if so what is name of this interface & is it easily available? What is name of most suitable drive?
Anyway, with a good FPGA board it may be possible to emulate the missing parts...
also some good modern Erzatz do exist... not always cheap... (80 euros ?)


Anyway, where are you from ? depending your country, it is more of less easy to find such stuff...
France being the best country because it was the biggest Amstrad 8 bit market...
If you are from Canada or USA or even elsewhere (outside Europe ?)... this is then more tricky.


The main Amstrad "countries" are :
UK, Germany, España and France of course...

Greece and a few other "smaller" counties too perhaps.
But a country like Italia is almost unknown to Amstrad community (did they bought Olivettis ?)
And "communist" east europa used to have homemade computers or Speccy clones.


bu the important thing are :
=are you good in electronic and custom solderings ? (then any Amstrad can do... you may even turn a speccy into a CPC...well... sort of...)

=can you get cheap Amstrad computers available ? (then it just depends on the money you can spend in this)

=do you have room in your flat/lair/dorm/basement AND/OR a comprehenssive girlfriend ? (THIS is the most important part... many of us failed because of this)

A good working original monitor (colour... always better...) is a precious stuff if you really want the good old retro feeling...
Also those were robust and solid monitor...
Cathode Ray is were it's at... because, you know... those 8 bit machines had was is called a "cathode ray controler"... not that good with modern screens...
Also those weren't really designed to deal with 16/9 or 16/10 sized screen, more 4/3...

If you have a good TV which can emulate old TV, this is good, or else...

[Devilmarkus]

Hello Jane,
first: welcome to our forum

Then: To choose, which would probably the best system for you, it's simple:
Play with an emulator with all possible configurations.
Then you should be able to figure out, what's the best choice for you.

To convert CDTs to WAV you should not try to speed them up.
A default CPC uses 1000 or 2000 Baud to load the files.
Perhaps with a good setup you could achieve up to 4000 Baud but thats already up to the limit the tapedrives can transfer properly.

[Bryce]

How's that going to help for a hardware decision? Adding a disc drive to a 464 in an emulator involves ticking a box. On real hardware it's not quite that easy. The emulator is a good way to compare the different OS/software available, but not very good to guage what hardware would suit the best.

Bryce.

[Devilmarkus]

It at least helps you to see if you prefer tapes or discs

[Bryce]

That's a no-brainer:

Tapes = Unreliable and slow
Discs = Unreliable and fast



Bryce.

[Devilmarkus]

That's a no-brainer:

Thanks but I prefer peanutbrain ( I am! )

[arnoldemu]

The easiest choice I would think is a cpc6128.

It loads discs, and it can load tapes with a lead.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Amstrad-CPC-664-6128-Basic-cassette-lead-/130547730309

You can connect a normal cassette player and use real cassettes (a more simple solution), or you can choose to play them through the pc.

[Devilmarkus]

I agree here.
I also would take the CPC 6128 and not the CPC+
Why?
The CPC 6128 is the "most compatible" choice here.
The CPC+ sure has many new features but is also restricted in old CPC compatibility.

And I would (if I had the money) replace the disc-drive to a HxC floppy emulator.

[robcfg]

That's a no-brainer:

Tapes = Unreliable and slow
Discs = Unreliable and fast



Bryce.

Sir, you have a hell of a sense of humor!    Please don't change that!

[MacDeath]

Anyway i think we then all agree that a good CPC6128 ( and colour monitor...) is always the best choice in CPC.

This is indeed the most complete machines.

This is quite a shame the PLUS range wasn't based exclusively on the 6128 facilities (Both Disk and tape really supported on the machine...) and that 464PLUS never existed !

Also a shame the GX4000 had no tape support/plug nor keyboard plug...nor extension port and was so cheap on RAM/ROM (256K&512K ROM and 128K RAM per example... wouldn't have hurt...). It then could have well replaced the useless 464PLUS.


But anyway I like the idea that more and more active users get their hands on a 6128PLUS so some new stuff could be done at last on those.

(oh sh*t I still have to send MaV's one...)


The problem : the chips needed to upgrade a 464 into a 4/6-128PLUS are certainly harder to find than those needed to fill the Tape support on a 6128PLUS motherboard...(Well... less numerous actually...).

Tapes = Unreliable and slow
Discs = Unreliable and fast

Disks are not that unreliable if you take care of your disks... and have a good pile of those...

Anyway you got me on this one, as often with you...
+1 like.

[OCT]

a shame the GX4000 had no tape support/plug nor keyboard plug...nor extension port and was so cheap on RAM/ROM (256K&512K ROM and 128K RAM per example... wouldn't have hurt...). It then could have well replaced the useless 464PLUS.

German (IIRC) The Cranium did publish detailed instructions on how to turn the GX4000 into a 6128+ in what must have been among the final issues of the legendary French mag "Amstrad 100%".

The problem : the chips needed to upgrade a 464 into a 4/6-128PLUS are certainly harder to find than those needed to fill the Tape support on a 6128PLUS motherboard...

"Chips" is a bit steep for just one  T+R: http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/DIY_Plus_Tape_Socket
I just happened to have this page open as well as http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/163350/TRANSISTOR-2-N-3904 and http://de.rs-online.com/web/p/universal-transistor/1980086/ for the part sources considering to add tape support to my "new" and first-ever 6128+ (which had a label over the tape header portion of the motherboard BTW, the glue of which would nicely dissolve under a Q-tip full of ethanol though), but wondered where you guys put the sockets, and which type of them?
The "traditional" 5-pin DIN plugs never were all that stable (unless you used prefabricated ones molded with the wires), but that type of socket might fit to the right of the disk drive eject button or between the "standard" (Devilmarkus style) location for Bryce's S-Video modulator and the rear disc port.
However, have a few of you used e.g. 2*3.5mm+1*2.5mm mono jacks instead?
Does anyone know what C42-44 were on a 464+, and whether they make any difference?

[MacDeath]

Perhaps this would be great if CPCparts could supply ready to use/solder "add a tape on your 6128PLUS" kit...
Anyway, the DIN5 is not even that needed provided you do your own cable... even a good old "sugar" contacter may be suitable...?

But also the DIN5/Tape cable too...(and the various kind of cables a CPC/PLUS could use...)


Considering many cracked tape versions exist (not needing actual fine tape drive control...) and considering there are not that much game with delicate multiload... (are there ?)
And mostly considering having a good 6128 so disk for these few games anyway...

While some good old smal games like...salomon's keys per example (I remember it was one of the few I used to load from tape with only ther jack from a walkman on a 60" tape homemade compilation (cracked I guess)...

But hey, a few sites have a good library of upgraded MP3/WAVE games which even load faster... I guess...

Would be great if those were available more easily (at CPCpowers perhaps ? are they ?)


Anyway...
Concerning the Disk controller... are there modern solution to get this for a 464 ?
a good DD1 disk drive is the solution but not always easy to find one...
Can't the special chips be emulated
Or are they still availlable somewhere ?

Perhaps you can even find better chips on this purpose to get easier compatibilities with "modern" disk Drives...
But yeah... the good brand new Disk Drive emulator is a good solution anyway... Does it even work on a simple 464 ?

[AMSDOS]

4) do all tape  games eg those for 464 work with 6128 connected to external tape player? Does 6128 have tape input port?

On my 6128 I was loading games like Harrier Attack and Roland on the Ropes for example from Tape without any trouble, though those games do run into a part of memory where the some of the Disc OS exists, I found transferring them to Disc was the problem, the only way around that is to load it somewhere else in memory and once it's loaded you can move it to where it belongs in memory - Harrier Attack is pretty straight-foward in that manner cause it's a pretty small game, Roland on the Ropes on the other hand is one big file which needs to be dived into 2 smaller files - the first file could be loaded to where it goes and the second could be loaded into screen memory then moved to the address it needs to go one (once all the loading has been done).

6) can a 3.5" drive be connected to 464 & 6128 as primary drive?

I remember many years ago in AA they reviewed a 3.5" Disk Drive (I think or at least announced one) as a primary disk drive. The Drive itself though was 3rd party, so good luck trying to hunt one down. I'm unsure if you can get a 3.5" Disk Drive as a primary drive for the 664/6128/6128+ cause their've all got one built-in, this one I saw in AA I think was for 464 (and 464+??) computers which don't have a DD-1 Disc Drive.


In terms of what your after all of the systems have their own little features. A 464 for example with BASIC 1.0 offers less commands than the other systems with BASIC 1.1, so programs written in BASIC 1.0 are friendlier in BASIC 1.1, usually it's when you go into some of the firmware routines though there are BASIC programs with M/C subroutines which won't work in BASIC 1.1 for some oddball reason or are programs which are tapping into specific addresses which are different in BASIC 1.0 to BASIC 1.1 (the Firmware Guide is the best document to check all that out).
On the other hand if you wanted to do 4096 colours, Hardware Sprites and stuff then a 464 Plus or 6128 Plus is the system to have - a 464 Plus is better cause it offers Tape (without Tampering with the Computer) and can always bang on a Disk Drive and additional memory for good measure (if that's still possible  ).

[OCT]

I'm unsure if you can get a 3.5" Disk Drive as a primary drive for the 664/6128/6128+ cause their've all got one built-in

Yes you can, for exchanging the Drive Select lines a so-called ABBA switch is "the name of the game", but that's about where any allusions to Agnetha et al. end.
On the other hand, 3.5" drives have also been used as internal replacements for the 664 http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?topic=1195 and on 6128plus(s)es too (some native speaker please enlighten us on how many "s"s in the proper plural - though there may be disagreement on either side of the pond ).

a 464 Plus is better cause it offers Tape (without Tampering with the Computer) and can always bang on a Disk Drive and additional memory for good measure (if that's still possible  ).

CPCs have come to a museum age where the art of hardware hacking by their curators may no longer be called tampering, but "restoration".

[Bryce]

@OCT = C42 - 44 are filter capacitors, to filter out low frequency and DC buzz that usually comes from a tape recorder, if they weren't there (ie: shorted) then loading games would be much (even) less reliable.

Bryce.

[MacDeath]

ABBA switch.

I used to be a huge metal fan (which is cool to cool your CPU) but when Yngwee Malmsteem covered "gimme gimme gimme" I then became a huge ABBA fan... this was my ABBA switch.

lulz appart.

the 6128 enable to do the floppy double decker of death.

[OCT]

@OCT = C42 - 44 are filter capacitors, to filter out low frequency and DC buzz that usually comes from a tape recorder, if they weren't there (ie: shorted) then loading games would be much (even) less reliable.

Well, as I understand http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/DIY_Plus_Tape_Socket which makes no mention of how to retrofit these to a 6128+ PCB, they are not there indeed (neither in http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/d/db/Edited_CPC_Plus_CPU_Schematic.gif where that section is top left and labelled CP107 instead) - do you happen to know what value they should be (C42-C45, the latter of which I'd overlooked the other day - some 10-100nF I'd assume for that purpose) ?

To make it easier for others to figure out (without unscrewing their 6128+) whether this hard-hack is a feasible feat, here's a photograph for the Wiki since we haven't had that yet AFAICT, with the sticker usually covering CP07 "demoted" to the right):

[OCT]

not needing actual fine tape drive control...) and considering there are not that much game with delicate multiload... (are there ?)

There was e.g. "Rockstar ate my hamster" which never had a disk version released to my knowledge (at least available to my place back then), and in constantly start-stopping fashion would load the celebrity profiles one at a time - and of course led me to convert its entire library into a file preloaded to the 6128's second RAM bank, accessed through replacement routines. Copyright law being inflexibly overreaching as it even then was, this great improvement in usability could never be shared.

But hey, a few sites have a good library of upgraded MP3/WAVE games which even load faster... I guess...

Would be great if those were available more easily

BTW it seems the transistor and its base resistor are only required for the motor relay anyway (and the free-run diode also gets redundant along with the latter) - so if all you'd ever want to use is a PC / HiFi tape deck line-out or MP3 player / Walkman* / whatever to demo to your grandchildren some day how programs once were music to every 8-bit proto-geek's ears back in ye olde days, inserting a cable (ready-made with a 3.5mm plug) through the vent hole under F9 and soldering that to two appropriate places (that someone who's already tried this might indicate on the image above) should do the trick without even having to resort to a case mod.

* = baladeur of course in places where you'd serve jail time for even unintentionally teaching kids English...