No love for the Digiblaster?

[khaz]

I was playing with my CVX4 from Serdaco, and it struck me: the CPC has a printer port, where is the equivalent module to output some wonderful, noisy samples?

I found out about the Digiblaster, but it seldom got any love. Why is that? Is outputing samples off the AY just as easy / processor-intensive? Is it because no one cared enough to make a board to sell to everybody?

The new MP3 module is cool, but it's slightly out of my comfort zone of "hardware that could have been made back then", whereas digital samples converted by a simple resistor array fits right in.

The CPC needs more samples.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3vJunu6YLo

[Bryce]

I built and sold about 50 DigiBlasters. I never saw or heard much about them since though.

Bryce.

[GUNHED]

There is quite some few software for the Digiblaster. I will try to add a category in the Wiki...


Ok, a little start:


http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Category:Digiblaster

But there is more to add actually. 

[roudoudou]

It's not in CPC developpers culture to create programs for hardware extensions (except for dev tools)


See spanish* guys, always tape and 64K




*i know, there is one exception 

[zhulien]

I built and sold about 50 DigiBlasters. I never saw or heard much about them since though.

Bryce.

Hi Bryce, would it be possible to convince you to create some more?  I'd like one... especially if you can put a stereo mixer input on it so we can plug CPC output as well as PlayCity output into it and have a single output going from it...  If the price is right, I'd like more than 1 actually. 

regards,

Julian

[khaz]

There is quite some few software for the Digiblaster. I will try to add a category in the Wiki...

I wouldn't call a couple of demos and some trackers "quite a few".

It's not in CPC developpers culture to create programs for hardware extensions (except for dev tools)

I disagree. More and more software require a 3.5" drive and use the additional space it provides. Some original games can take advantage of the extra 512k memory without breaking compatibility, and there have been conversions for old multi-sided games to be fully loaded in RAM at the start of the program. Plenty of programs are being converted to ROM for ease of use.

I think what the Digiblaster needs is a poster child game. A good game that shows of the capabilities of it and entices other devs to develop with it in mind. Like an adventure game with optional voice dialogues? a different soundtrack played if a Digiblaster is detected?

[roudoudou]

You disagree OK but could you name two games or more taking advantage of 512k like you said?

[khaz]

You disagree OK but could you name two games or more taking advantage of 512k like you said?

Chibi Akumas 2 does. Le passager du temps, Mortville Manor, and a bunch of others have been optimised for the X-MEM.
http://cpccrackers.free.fr/Downloads/index.php?voirdir=Chany%20Special_X-Y-MEM
http://cpccrackers.free.fr/Downloads/index.php?voirdir=Chany%20Compatible_X-MEM

And I don't doubt we'll get more games that will take advantage of more RAM, if only to remove multi loads (same usage as 464 games with 6128 optimisation)

[Bryce]

Hi Bryce, would it be possible to convince you to create some more?  I'd like one... especially if you can put a stereo mixer input on it so we can plug CPC output as well as PlayCity output into it and have a single output going from it...  If the price is right, I'd like more than 1 actually. 

regards,

Julian

My version, which you can see here: http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:DigiBlaster3_Types.jpg
did have a stereo input to mix the CPC output and Digiblaster output together. Unfortunately, they were handmade PCBs, so I never did a proper layout to have any more produced. I doubt I have any of these PCBs left over, but I'll take a look later.

Bryce.

[roudoudou]

In my opinion, reading your list, there is only one game taking advantage of extended memory, with a real change in gameplay (moar graphics) -> chibi akuma 2, released this week! The other games just have faster loading...

[Ygdrazil]

Hi there!


Never owned a digiblaster! But I think the Digiblaster was not a success because it took all the frame time to feed the printerport with sound data!?
Not really usefull stuff needed to be moved around on the screen at the same time!


Am I right?


Regards,
/Ygdrazil

I was playing with my CVX4 from Serdaco, and it struck me: the CPC has a printer port, where is the equivalent module to output some wonderful, noisy samples?

I found out about the Digiblaster, but it seldom got any love. Why is that? Is outputing samples off the AY just as easy / processor-intensive? Is it because no one cared enough to make a board to sell to everybody?

The new MP3 module is cool, but it's slightly out of my comfort zone of "hardware that could have been made back then", whereas digital samples converted by a simple resistor array fits right in.

The CPC needs more samples.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3vJunu6YLo

[khaz]

In my opinion, reading your list, there is only one game taking advantage of extended memory, with a real change in gameplay (moar graphics) -> chibi akuma 2, released this week! The other games just have faster loading...

So one is not enough, you dismiss the others for "not being innovative enough", and you conveniently forget about the other hardware addons I mentioned previously. Way to derail a thread dude.

Never owned a digiblaster! But I think the Digiblaster was not a success because it took all the frame time to feed the printerport with sound data!?
Not really usefull stuff needed to be moved around on the screen at the same time!

Hey, thanks for your input! I was considering something like that. I know the Covox Speech thing on PC eats a lot of CPU time, and I'm wondering if as such it would cost too much for the poor Z80. Maybe it would be more useful with more static screens?

[roudoudou]

Never owned a digiblaster! But I think the Digiblaster was not a success because it took all the frame time to feed the printerport with sound data!?
Not really usefull stuff needed to be moved around on the screen at the same time!

Correct, but...


...in Imperial Majhong there is digidrum sent to AY every 128 nops during 256 lines of the screen (a complete screen is 312 lines) so it's possible to achieve a good quality without doing this all the time. BTW 128 nops means 8KHz samples.


And it's easier to feed a digiblaster than feeding the AY

[ASiC]

My version, which you can see here: http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:DigiBlaster3_Types.jpg
did have a stereo input to mix the CPC output and Digiblaster output together. Unfortunately, they were handmade PCBs, so I never did a proper layout to have any more produced. I doubt I have any of these PCBs left over, but I'll take a look later.

Bryce.

I'd go for at least one as well

[GUNHED]

I wouldn't call a couple of demos and some trackers "quite a few".

Well, then let me talk in my mother language: Es gibt hald a bisserl was und des is besser als gar nix ;-)


BTW: I sayd "some few" and ... you are welcome! (Next time I guess I invest my time better ;-//))


EDIT: A Digiblaster game would be great! If you do one if would be even greater.
EDIT2: You can't detect it, you must *know* if the device is there SymbOS and FutureOS have a configuration data file, so they know it. But CP/M and Amsdos can't sense it, they must question the user if it's there or not.

[mr_lou]

I was one of the 50 people who bought a Digiblaster, eager to create some MOD-like tracks for the CPC. I had an impression that the Digiblaster would be embraced by most of the community, especially musicians.

But then as usual real life got in the way, so I never even got started.

Then I noticed that the Digiblaster apparently wasn't embraced by the most of the community anyway, as I'd initially thought: I had expected future games that had sampled audio to support a "Digiblaster option". In fact, when Orion Prime was released I asked Targhan about this. He misinterpreted my question as if I was complaining that Digiblaster wasn't supported, when I was just asking if it was - giving me a clear impression that I was probably the only one in the community who was eager to hear Digiblaster audio. So after that I lost the interest again.

[reidrac]

The CPC community is small, and adding specific code to support a hardware add-on is a bit of a subset of that small group.

If the hw add-on is supported by at least one emulator, it would be OK-ish; but still. Also it all depends on the hw you have at home (I don't own a 6128, I have only a 464).

For me there's another factor and it is that I like the constraints of the machine and, well, "the CPC". If you add 512KB of RAM, for example, it is a different thing. I could be making games for a PC, and I'm not.

Yes, you can say Spanish devs is all cassette and 64K; but at least in my case you're missing the point. I guess other devs may have a different opinion too

[Targhan]

In fact, when Orion Prime was released I asked Targhan about this. He misinterpreted my question as if I was complaining that Digiblaster wasn't supported, when I was just asking if it was - giving me a clear impression that I was probably the only one in the community who was eager to hear Digiblaster audio. So after that I lost the interest again.

Yes I remember my misunderstanding, still sorry about it . But like Roudoudou said, it is not in the CPC scene philosphy to create hardware specific code. This might change though, but I know I will always prefer making "CPC-naked" productions.

[khaz]

Yes I remember my misunderstanding, still sorry about it . But like Roudoudou said, it is not in the CPC scene philosphy to create hardware specific code. This might change though, but I know I will always prefer making "CPC-naked" productions.

Man, you say that but you just released a tracker that takes advantage of having several AY chips. And your arguably most popular game is best played on an optional 3.5" drive, for convenience but also exclusive content.

[Targhan]

Man, you say that but you just released a tracker that takes advantage of having several AY chips.

You almost got me here. But I provided a tool, not a demo or a game. I didn't want this software to be limited, else no one would have used it, or worst, someone would have had to create another tracker just for the PlayCity. Arkos Tracker goes beyond the realm of the CPC, since you can create a PSG with a different frequency.

And your arguably most popular game is best played on an optional 3.5" drive, for convenience but also exclusive content.

Actually, it is the other way round: the missing content of the 3" version or Orion Prime was not intended to be missing. But we couldn't do any other way, there was no room for it. Plus I think we can consider the 3,5" almost as a "naked CPC". But yeah, this proves I am not an extremist of my own philosophy, which is, most of the time, a good thing .

[mr_lou]

Man, you say that but you just released a tracker that takes advantage of having several AY chips.

You almost got me here. But I provided a tool, not a demo or a game.

As far as I can see it isn't about whether it's a tool or game or demo. It's about the target platform it's made for. Arkos Tracker 2 is for PC. That's the difference.

[khaz]

Plus I think we can consider the 3,5" almost as a "naked CPC".

What makes it "almost as" that you have no problem developing for it? is it ubiquity? is it availability and ease of installation?

Or maybe it is convenience. You had an intended ending that you couldn't fit on a regular disc, so you had to make sacrifices so that everything fits, like every other programmer on any machine. But you also decided to release an "extended version" which in reality is how you originally envisioned the game to be. This extended version, in the eyes of everyone including yourself, is the real version, the one to play. The game you wanted to make, which can only be played with an extra, optional hardware addon.

I'm not saying one version shouldn't have existed, or that you should do everything for the 3.5 drive from now on. But the vision you had for the game could only be made with a hardware addon, and that didn't stop you.

My opinion is that the idea that the CPC dev community doesn't want extra hardware is a myth. It's a myth because everyone believes it and keeps propagating it, without much regard for the reality: the CPC dev community does develop code for specific extra hardware that not everyone owns, they just don't realise it, because the hardware they do use comes naturally to them.

Having a 3.5 drive, like extra RAM and a ROMbox, is a convenience. You could do without and experience everything created with a truly naked 6128. But it's a damn fine convenience to have, not having to swap discs, having some extra bits in some games, starting software instantly, not having to close every other programs in that multitasking OS.

The Digiblaster is relatively new, and devs don't really want to support it because of the user base. But it's a chicken and egg problem. If a dev makes an extra soundtrack for their game, it will be exactly like your extra ending: you can experience and enjoy the game on a naked CPC, but if you have that extra hardware you can have a little bit more.



I dare everyone to say that it wouldn't be awesome to have the original soundtrack in the Pinball Dreams remake! in addition to the remixed AY soundtrack.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ifk0lnfqJgM

For the price of a dozen resistors
(and probably a few hundreds of man-hours in dev ^^)
( @Rhino said we won't )

As I said in my first message, I would understand the argument if it were for the MP3 player cartridge: a hardware that is damn cool in itself but couldn't have existed during the original lifetime of the computer. But a resistor array that plays music? Come on.

[khaz]

And that's a damn lengthy post. Sorry for the rant. Nothing personal.

[Targhan]

You are right about the convenience, but I consider the use of a 3,5" to be part of the CPC. Plus, it doesn't require any specific development... but I did indeed to manage the double-side. But this is managed by the FDC, so this is still a part of the "naked CPC"!


To me, the limit is here and I won't cross it. As a tool developer, I had some fun with the PlayCity. But I know I will not develop any game/demo using it, because it is not the "naked CPC". This is not a myth or anything, just my point of view.


The Digiblaster will improve the sound indeed, but you still need to do specific code, plus have specific (8 bits instead of 4) samples, plus you have to plug your speakers, which I don't do because I only use the native speaker, which sound I love.

I don't see the point at playing MP3 in a CPC game when you know all the "power" is provided by an additional hardware and not the CPC itself. Maybe Rhino thinks the same, I don't know. Oh well... 

[khaz]

Yeah, not trying to force you hand, haha

It's just I feel the thing has potential, and I become a bit passionate about it.

(and at least we agree on the mp3 thing, we're cool)