surfing the Internet with a CPC

[MacDeath]

I was wondering what would be needed to unlock such Feat.


As I saw, there is a CPC-ISA card enabling to get the proper PC-like (despite old tech cards) slots on a CPC.

With such stuff, you may then put on an ISA ethernet card to connect to a proper modem ?

But I don't think a Z80 based machine could really handle the modern Internet.



Things needed for such a solution perhaps ?

=OS : an adapted net browser.

=TCP/IP management.

=network/Ethernet stuff : CPC lack such a good stuff, better thing than Virtual Net96 can be got.


The aim could be to have CPC-friendly designed Websites...
Where you would be able to :

-chat.
-forums.
-Get streaming medias... pictures, Sounds or even Animations ?
-online Games ?


The Ideal would even be to have stuff that could also be browsed with other 8bit old-computers.

Almost all 8bit can display something in 2 colours (monochromes) and many have at least a 4 colours mode (C64...CPC of course, of even Atari 8bits...).
The main problem may be that the server/site-host would have to take in account what computer the user has, and convert the stuffs (mostly media and display).

Because, well, with all those character attribute based computerz, this may be not that easy, but we are talking about stuff that a modern computer find quite small and slow...
What is 64k or even 128 RAM nowadays ?



Also the difference between Z80 and C65xx based computers may be slightly problematic ?



The proper Hardware solution should include :

=what needed to connect to your internet box and perform a proper TCP/IP.
=RAM and ROM extension.
=perhaps a real time clock ?
=a Mouse port may be helpfull...
=Also a HDD port.

Basically, this would some sort of a Symbiface.

Such box should be able to perform a real network (offline) or an internet connection... or even both.

In the "ethernet" aspect, this could be great that the network aspect enable to use a CPC as a dedicated local server...



I don't know if this is possible but...


I was thinking about using heavily bank switching to get a "batch-based" access to some datas instead of streaming.

Modern internet is so fast (ADSL) that filling a 16K bank is quite fast.
With some kind of rotation between a few Bank in the extended memory... would need an internal I/O for the card and some handshake so the CPU would not address to Bank being used (writen) at the moment...



Your opinions ?
Have any one of you ever surfed the internet with a CPC ?

This would be soo cool is some sort of specialized SymbOS-like stuff and a piece of hardware enabled it.

Most CPC-sites Forums  could then get a CPC-friendly part.
Perhaps even the CPC-Wiki could be made CPC-compatible then...


Would/should look like SymZillaperhaps.

[Xyphoe]

I remember ages ago on the cpczone forums (RIP) someone was working on the TCP/IP protocols, but that's as far as I know/remember.

[redbox]

I remember ages ago on the cpczone forums (RIP) someone was working on the TCP/IP protocols, but that's as far as I know/remember.

It was CPC/IP (I had to use the Google Cache as the actual websites seems to be offline).

I remember Richard Fairhurst talking about a CPC browser, but don't know if he was joking (never could tell  ).

[Xyphoe]

It was CPC/IP (I had to use the Google Cache as the actual websites seems to be offline).

I remember Richard Fairhurst talking about a CPC browser, but don't know if he was joking (never could tell  ).

I was actually wondering the other day what happened to Richard Fairhurst (after the Fluff vid and topic, turns out he did the tunes)
Was he on the cpczone forums and what was his username? I take it he hasn't found his way over here yet?

[redbox]

I was actually wondering the other day what happened to Richard Fairhurst (after the Fluff vid and topic, turns out he did the tunes)
Was he on the cpczone forums and what was his username? I take it he hasn't found his way over here yet?

He has a Blog (which isn't updated often) but does contain some CPC stuff and also a Twitter which is update all the time.

[robcfg]

I did a little archaeology on the Internet Archive and managed to get the sources for (the last?) CPC/IP (v0.20).


I have attached the page with the instructions and the sources in ZIP format, I hope you find it useful.

[arnoldemu]

I was wondering what would be needed to unlock such Feat.

I did plan this a long time ago, but it was never completed.
I planned to use Contiki, a cpc booster and a serial connection to a linux computer.
The CPC would talk to the linux machine using SLIP or similar. The Linux machine would be the gateway and data would go through it.

First problem was sdcc didn't generate good code and contiki filled the whole 64k ram. (I didn't make it work with more ram).

Perhaps a new port of contiki would be better, this has webbrowser and other programs in it.
Yes, we would need some socket stuff for talking TCP/IP, but I think it has some of this already, perhaps for z80 too, but I didn't look at it recently.

Now, an ethernet card for cpc would be really good....maybe Bryce can make one ?

[dragon]

Maybe the best for cpc is create a copy of playstation network. A amstrad network.With a web page adapted for cpc with news,online.And games.But more simple that playstation network offcourse.

[norecess]

Stop the idea right now.


Even on Amiga 600 with accelerator/tons of RAM, all you can do is FTP / IRC / POP Mail / textmode browsing and that's all.

[Bryce]

A stand-alone CPC Network Card (just for communicating within a LAN) has been on my list of possible projects for a long time now, but I've never got around to investigating what it would take or whether it's feasable.

As far as Interweb on the CPC is concerned, that would be cool. If I add 512K RAM, can I have a Flash plugin for it too?

Bryce.

[Devilmarkus]

If I add 512K RAM, can I have a Flash plugin for it too?

Why not a Java-Plugin? There are many C64 or ZX Spectrum emulators written in Java

[Bryce]

Could you then run JavaCPC on a real CPC464 and just choose 6128Plus to upgrade it?

Bryce.

[MacDeath]

Thx for all the replies.

It is clear in my mind that a CPC would need a proper Hardware extention to unlock the Feat "surfing with the alien computers"...


IMO the CPC himself should not really manage the TCP/IP protocol, But I don't know the kind of powerfull programable component actually needed...

Also a mundane 64-128K RAM config may not be enough...


This explains why I imagined this like some sorte of dedicated symbiface or a symbyface add-on...

The CPC would be more like some sort of terminal.

I mean it may just even be problematic to display a mundane CPCwiki article, even if in "text mode" only (no picture)...
Or a Forum's page with lots'o' text...

On the other hand if the hardware helps enough this could look like the SymbOS unreleased SymZilla...

of course the Symbos Aspect would be just cosmetic...
I mean no need to run SymbOS at the same time.
Nor enable to much multi windows or Multitask...

But concerning the medias, if a website is then CPC-friendly, we may get streaming multimedia and pictures.

Of course a video would clearly not be in full screen, multimode and 50Hz...lol.
But perhaps a 160x100 mode1 at 25Hz format with sounds could be done.

Concerning pictures, gotta keep on the CPC specs...
No modern High resolution stuff.
And yep, better if pictures are especially designed for a CPC or even a PLUS.

An automatic picture converter may be done but just to look at unretouched redimensioned pictures converted with convimgCPC or (better) WizardCPC...shows that many picture wouldn't be good if not retouched by a human hand...


Concerning PLUS, what about Hardwired sprites use ? (smiley's anyone ?) for some stuffs... or even to display some static pictures (64x64 pixels x16 colours...)
Would add a few colours though... or perhaps even enable a taskbar in different colours (thx to better split screeninterrupts).
But those would be only minor and cosmetic stuffs.

Also yes, such stuff could be emulated so you can surf with a virtual CPC/PLUS on your PC...
This may be a nice try to see if the interface is good...

Yet the Hardware solution (for a real CPC/PLUS) is certainly the most problematic aspect...

The Ideal would be not to get the amstrad connected to a PC, but directly to your "internet box" via the peripheral card...

[redbox]

I think telnet or IRC would be a more reasonable thing to try and achieve.  A TCP/IP stack on the CPC talking to a Linux via a terminal link should be possible. 

Don't forget, TCP/IP is just the method of communicating, but it would mean that the CPC could be assigned an IP address that you could ping. 

[Bryce]

I don't do the software side of things, but you could as an experiment write a HTML reader, that reads a HTML page from disk and displayed it (with scrolling feature). Firstly to see how large that program would be and secondly how fast it would run. If this proves to be impossible / impractical, then all the hardware in the world isn't going to help you.

Bryce.

[MacDeath]

Good idea Bryce.

You're right, perhaps I should start with this, a HTML reader.

[arnoldemu]

I don't do the software side of things, but you could as an experiment write a HTML reader, that reads a HTML page from disk and displayed it (with scrolling feature). Firstly to see how large that program would be and secondly how fast it would run. If this proves to be impossible / impractical, then all the hardware in the world isn't going to help you.

Bryce.

I would be less keen to use the cpc for surfing, and more for it being a server.
It could server 2 or 3 pages via 3" disc

Reading HTML and then converting it into a form that can be displayed takes a lot of cpu power.
Remember the first phones, they used WAP pages as an alternative html form that they could display, because they didn't have the power or ram to display normal HTML pages.

[redbox]

Reading HTML and then converting it into a form that can be displayed takes a lot of cpu power.
Remember the first phones, they used WAP pages as an alternative html form that they could display, because they didn't have the power or ram to display normal HTML pages.

Exactly, it would have to be WAP style pages made for the CPC otherwise it's not going to work.  HTML is easy to render because it's just a text file with <tags> that could be processed for the CPC, but we're talking nothing past HTML 3 really.

But the CPC spoofing a WAP-device header request would be easy, and then it might display all the wap pages already out there (like eBay).  This would still mean stripping out all the images etc though, and a Lynx type browser is the best you could reasonably achieve in my opinion.

[MacDeath]

Yeah LYNX, I was looking for this one, my brother told me about it but I forgot the name, thx to remind me this...

A HTML on CPC should be some kind of Lite HTML.


Of course nowaday even the most mundane page has shitton of HTML instructions...
The CPC would have to skip what is "useless" and what is usefull should be kept.

But this is not that easy I suppose.


HTML is a lot of Text display mise en page/text display/seting (erg... what's the correct term ?)
...well is a lot of word processing...


Do you think some PCW stuff may be usefull then ?
After all the PCW is mostly a CPC only in fullscreen MODE2 with a lot of RAM...

Example : justified text display may be hard or CPU heavy for a CPC, let's just skip that for example.

Also the various Fonts...CPC should turn them into just a pair (max) of font perhaps.

Isn't LYNX done in C+ language ?


The ideal would be some sort of LYNX with a few graphical/sound stuff available only if a CPC-friendly site provides them..?

[arnoldemu]

Exactly, it would have to be WAP style pages made for the CPC otherwise it's not going to work.  HTML is easy to render because it's just a text file with <tags> that could be processed for the CPC, but we're talking nothing past HTML 3 really.

But the CPC spoofing a WAP-device header request would be easy, and then it might display all the wap pages already out there (like eBay).  This would still mean stripping out all the images etc though, and a Lynx type browser is the best you could reasonably achieve in my opinion.

Converting html and displaying it is not easy if you want the page to look anything like on a pc.

If you want to display something really simple, or custom made for cpc, then you have a lot more chance.

Lynx style is probably closer to what you could achieve, but even then browsing the pages could be slow.

Really, probably best to concentrate on either serving pages, or something where you need very little text input or processing (IRC, Twitter, ftp or similar)

[redbox]

If you want to display something really simple, or custom made for cpc, then you have a lot more chance.

I agree.  And the <cpc> tag is not used currently in HTML 

Really, probably best to concentrate on either serving pages, or something where you need very little text input or processing (IRC, Twitter, ftp or similar)

Absolutely, which is why I suggested IRC and Telnet because really they are just serving dumb terminals.

[MacDeath]

I agree.  And the <cpc> tag is not used currently in HTML

To get a CPC-friendly stuff, we may have to create "new" functions...
Stuff like <CPC><CPCpic><CPCshit><CPCbug>...

Is this possible ?


Ok, I just got a meeting with my brother.

concerning the Ethernet/Modem aspect, there are some PIC / microcontrolers (or whatever) doing this for a reasonable price...


Stuff like this :
AT32UC3B1128-AUT     
(Not sure if it was this one exactly...)

But some of those kind of chip incluse Ethernet managment, TCP/IP stacks and so on...
"Just" need to code/connect it to be CPC friendly (extension port connections and settings...)...

But this seems a big task for me but hey, I must start something...


WAP : Wireless ?

Do you mean WAP-like ?
I mean ok it seems designed for mobile phones and so on, so quite limited actually, this may be ok too for a CPC perhaps.



Also :
eBay portable...
http://wap.ebay.co.uk/Pages/ViewItemPic.aspx?aid=400085463443&emvcc=0

OMFG ?
lol...

/out-topic...


But yeah Amstrad could handle good old mobile phone stuffs because of the resolutions of those...well, the more modern Mobile phones actually have awesome resolutions nowadays...in true colors and so on...

I must recognise Browsing the Web 3.0 is far beyound a good old CPC but some limited stuff like twitter (the guy who did it with a Commodore VIC ?)...
But considering the good number of CPC related website (you all ,the CPC-community)...
Getting some standards for CPC-Web may be great as it wouldn't be that heavy implementation for the existing webs... (or would it be ?) and enable a lot of fun stuffs.


Push N' Pop per exemple would be a perfect candidate...

Some pseudo imageboards like 4chan (AmsChan ?) may also be created....


Image board are just a bit of text and possibility to attach a picture.
Such picture could be just a link that you may load and see full screen then... (no miniature?).

A Forum also wouldn't need that a lot of stuff, getting the text to scroll vertically may be quite problematic though.
But thx to the streaming aspect of a net connection, a single heavy page may not have to be entirely put into RAM at once...And we can't expect a smooth and fast  experience at first.

The main problem... some pages have a shitton of text then.
So the Hardware solution is to include a good chunk of extra RAM... And the "OS" (browser) should be in ROM too.



Good question : what is the biggest page on CPCwiki ?

[Devilmarkus]

AFAIK the SymbOS doc viewer can show html contents. But I am not sure...

[TFM]

Surfing the net? Wait for the Symbiface expansion card ;-)

[Gryzor]

To get a CPC-friendly stuff, we may have to create "new" functions...
Stuff like <CPC><CPCpic><CPCshit><CPCbug>...

Is this possible ?

Of course. HTML is an XML sub-set, you can just create anything you like. The key is that I don't know if it's possible to make normal PC browsers to ignore a cpc tag, and that you just have to code your browser to interpret your tag as you like.

CPCWiki long pages: http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Special:LongPages . There's a surprise for you at the first place!!! Not really a content page though. This would have to be http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/NC100_IO_Specification .