Hello all, some of you may have noticed that TotO has been offline recently, so I'd like to explain to you how this came
about so that no rumours or mis-information gets spread around.
As you know, my current project, the 5VCPC, is about to be released and the first users have already stated their
interest in buying some of them. TotO took it upon himself to contact several of these users directly via PM claiming
that I was scamming them. He also sent them a link to a Cheap Chinese DC/DC converter that is available on ebay
for a mere $1.18, claiming that my device was actually one of these and advising them to buy these instead.
It's miles apart from one of these and I would not recommend that anyone use such a cheap generic DC/DC converter
in the CPC, at least not without knowing the many things that can go badly wrong.
I put a lot of time and effort into designing my device to be not only safe, but also to ensure user-friendliness and the
least amount of interference to your CPC. Hand choosing the components to best suit the CPC environment and the
exact voltage and current that the floppy drive requires. I didn't choose the cheapest components, I chose the best ones.
I also went to the effort of designing and manufacturing a PCB so that it is plug and play, requiring no soldering skills from
the end user or irreversable changes required to the CPC. These things cost money and scale of economics means that I
could never get my price even close to a generic Chinese product. To insinuate that my custom device is in any way comparable
to some mass produced Chinese rubbish is not only completely wrong and extremely misinformed, but also quite insulting.
However, people don't get banned for insulting me, I'm quite thick skinned. Nor do they get banned for a lack of electronics
knowledge or being wrong. TotO was given a temporary ban due to his backhanded, devious PMs to users which goes against
everything our community stands for. As I hope most of you will agree, this is disgraceful behaviour, that has no place in our Forum.
If he really believed and stood behind what he claimed in the PMs, then he would have been quite entitled to call me out in the thread and
discuss the differences between the two devices, he may even have learnt something, but he chose to take a very different route.
The whole ethic and spirit of the CPCWiki community is one of sharing, discussing and supporting each others work. I have supported
and recommended TotOs products regularly in the past, which makes his behaviour even more difficult to understand. Despite his ban
being only temporary, he seems to have chosen a more drastic route and from what I understand has decided to leave the CPC
community completely.
If anyone would like to discuss the technical merits and differences between the two devices I am more than happy to discuss
these in the original 5VCPC thread.
Bryce.
A sad day.
However, I stand by what you say about the spirit of the forum. You are absolutely right.
Cheers
JonB
Sad day, indeed :(
I think all can be fixed and I hope this too...
Let me chime in, if I may.
Tot0 has been a very valuable member here, and I've had great relations with him. He's done some really great stuff and brought great joy to the community.
This is why I really, really can't understand why he would act this way. God knows I'm no electronics expert, though when I asked Bryce for a technical explanation it sounded clear enough that TotO's claims were unfounded. Much more importantly, though, the way TotO went about spreading that information was extremely disappointing and surprising. Hence why, sad as it was, I had to concur with the action taken.
That said, I sincerely hope TotO does come back. I don't think there's a single person who doesn't want him as part of our community, so TotO, if you're reading this, please do reconsider...
Imho, sometimes it's better to resolve things not in public.
I agree; but based on past experience, not doing it in public causes opinions and feelings to fester among us, hence why.
Mistakes are for people.
It would be better to say your opinion and exchange thoughts but hey, we all have a bad day from time to time. Right?
Hope he'll return someday.
Our community needs everyone!!!
I would like to thank both Bryce and TotO for their contribution.
Quote from: VincentGR on 18:15, 05 January 17
It would be better to say your opinion and exchange thoughts...
And THAT's the problem. You can only hear one side of the view. That can never be fair.
Everytime you must hear both sides, but this can't be a part of the public.
So only bad vibes can be transported in public. Helpful?
I think it's better to receive 20 Mails of "where are User XYZ"....
(I'dont know, we don't live together in one house)
TotO, I hope you come back soon.
Quote from: SOS on 17:40, 05 January 17
Imho, sometimes it's better to resolve things not in public.
I did reach out to TotO directly, asking him why he did it and explaining to him why his e-mail was both the wrong thing to do and technically inacurate. The mail was longer than my post above. His reply came two minutes later, was two sentences long and more or less the equivalent of showing me the middle finger.
Bryce.
Ahh, I'm feeling left out. I never got any such PM... >:(
Oh, and it's likely you can get those cheap DC-DC converters for less than $1.18 if you buy in larger quantities...
As with everything in life, you can get the cheap item that may or may not do the job, and which may or may not be reliable in extended service. Or you can buy an item which has been properly designed using good quality components.
You makes your choice and pays your money...
But although I already have a number of the cheap DC-DC converters (that I bought a few years ago to see how good they were), I will still buy one of Bryce's for use in a CPC.
Mark
Quote from: SOS on 19:15, 05 January 17
And THAT's the problem. You can only hear one side of the view. That can never be fair.
Everytime you must hear both sides, but this can't be a part of the public.
So only bad vibes can be transported in public. Helpful?
I think it's better to receive 20 Mails of "where are User XYZ"....
(I'dont know, we don't live together in one house)
TotO, I hope you come back soon.
Sorry, my mistake. I wasn't clear enough.
I meant between them.
I've heard of people dying as a result of cheap phone chargers plugged into the wall, while they were listening to their music through their ear plugs. There are electrical standards which I'd imagine would be placed in Europe like they are in Australia, to protect consumers from dodgy components. Unfortunately Cheap Asian shops are all over the place, which I think is were you need to watch out for potentially hazardous good (if you're not shopping online).
I don't usually discuss the pricing of my devices at all, but as it has been called into question (by more than one person), I will be post a full breakdown of why my device is not a $1 device and where the costs occur. Hopefully this will remove all claims and speculations being made.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 08:43, 06 January 17
I don't usually discuss the pricing of my devices at all, but as it has been called into question (by more than one person), I will be post a full breakdown of why my device is not a $1 device and where the costs occur. Hopefully this will remove all claims and speculations being made.
Bryce.
I've read your comments on numerous occasions, which includes stressing out to others, not to purchase cheap electronics. I would of thought anyone who has been on here for a while now would know that. :o
You don't just pay for the cost of the parts, you pay for the time and effort of the person making it. Supporting the people who support our little community is surely worth an extra tenner.
You also have to take into account the waste that comes from broken or lost stuff - this has to be spread among the rest of the units...
Since Toto do not build XMem card anymore, is there any affordable alternative?
If anyone has the time or interest, the post is now here: http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/5vcpc/msg139209/#msg139209
Bryce.
That was a fascinating read, at least for me. I think it shows how much thought has to go into some electronics designs to produce a long-lasting viable solution.
That said, it's quite sad that we had to come to the point that a BOM had to be provided - this is normally always the case, as it would mean that a dev really is trying to scam people out of their money, but I would think that in cases like this, when the "inflated" price is so low, it's silly to argue that someone is trying to get rich by scamming us. So, what, if Bryce went for the el cheapo solutions, he could probably make €10 a unit? And make a total of €150-200? Still well, well worth it IMO - it still means very little for the time he spent developing this unit.
It'd be a different issue if it was about someone who came in, saw, sold something that caused issues and questions never to be answered, and who left without supporting their stuff. But -yeah, not even going to try to sum up how much help Bryce has given throughout the years here.
In sum: can it be built cheaper? Maybe. Will it be as good? Most probably not. Can it be as cheap as TotO claimed? Kinda doubt it. Would I mind if I paid Bryce €15 in profit? Absolutely not.
Still I find it sad the way the community keep loosing good people that have done much good here and for CPC users everywhere. It would be nice if we all could get along and be friends. People like Bryce and Toto are very much needed
I can't think of anyone that has done more for the CPC and CPC users than TotO. TotO, don't go!
I don't think their views on CPC hardware are incompatible and I think that if TotO just asked Bryce on the price of the 5VCPC in the thread, everyone would be happy.
Still, I fail to see how closing cent pour cent or leaving the CPC scene would help.
I'm waiting for TotO's ban to end so he can reply and give us his point of view.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
But is really necesariy ban a user directly?.
I mean, It not best first made a warning instead of a ban directly.Not only for Toto, But to any other user.
I think ban people should be last resource. When warning fail.
Oh good, drama... That's exactly what the scene needs, not...
This whole mess is just wrong.
From banning a member like TotO, to making this a public matter.
What exactly is this post trying to do really? Justify the ban or bitch about a member's doing something immoral and/or wrong?
It's mainly wrong because we cannot listen to the other party's view of the issue.
Very easy to demonize someone and accuse them about anything since they've got no means to defend themselves!
I'm not saying that Bryce is talking mince, no.
But it's hard to believe that a well known and respected member suddenly started behaving like that for no reason.
You can't have fire without smoke is what I believe...[/size]
@dragon (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=251) : I would tend to agree, but for three reasons: first, a warning for something that was rather offline is not quite fitting; second, in my opinion what he did out of the blue was very, very bad; and third, this is a side-effect of what we had to decide after living with TFM for so long: warnings seem to do very little. After all, come on, a few days of banning is not exactly a death sentence...
@ASiC (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22) :
"from banning a member like TotO...": it's not a permaban, and I don't think we should really distinguish between users and how much they're worth when dealing with issues.
"to making this thing public" : would it be better to ban him and pretend this never happened? For the sake of transparency and because people had already started talking, it was really the only option.
"we cannot listen to the other party's view" : we can't hold an open court, really. What's more, what TotO did precisely robbed Bryce of his ability and right to respond, by doing it privately. Nonetheless, I did give TotO the opportunity to reply through me if he so wished, and he declined. But again: it's not a permaban. He could come back and reply all he wanted.
Quote from: Gryzor on 20:24, 06 January 17
"to making this thing public" : would it be better to ban him and pretend this never happened? For the sake of transparency and because people had already started talking, it was really the only option.
For me it sounds like someone to put on the pillory.
The only option? How about "the ban has reasons, which are private"?
Heh, well,imagine what kind of shitstorm would take place if we said that :D
Not a practical option really, and not very communal, not sharing the reasons.
@Gryzor (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1)
A permaban is still a ban and can upset people to the point they will feel unwelcome and never bother to return afterwards ;)
I'm not questioning your decision to ban TotO or anyone for that matter. In the end of the day, it's not democracy here, we are all guest!
People started to ask questions, sure, but you could easily reply something like "he had his reasons" and leave it there.
TotO has a well-known website and he can bitch about it there if he wishes :)
I was a little "upset" (can't find of a better word right now!) that there is an entire post describing an event without both people affected be able to have their saying. Yes, if you take it public, be prepared for an open court situation!
OK, the fact that TotO refused to defend his side sounds a bit dodgy but, oh well, drama sells I reckon :P
Hi all,
as I was the person who instigated TotOs ban I think more needs to be said. What TotO did was extremely unethical. Instead of questioning the technical and financial details of my project in the open forum as is normally done he went behind my back and sent e-mails to interested parties criticising my project and telling them that there are alternative solutions that cost a fraction of the price. Ignoring the fact that this is completely incorrect, it's not the type of behaviour that we condone in this community. I still find this behaviour abhorent, however, I can understand that people feel that TotO contributes majorly to this community and many feel that he has been denied the oportunity to defend his behaviour.
Although I doubt TotO and I will ever be best friends as we have very different views as to what defines a good product, I also don't want to make new enemies (I have enough already), so I have requested that this ban be removed with immediate effect. This will give TotO the oportunity to defend and justify his actions and possibly bring some harmony back to the community. I also believe that TotOs departure from the community would be a great loss for all, but not at the cost of undermining the projects of others.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 22:08, 06 January 17
This will give TotO the oportunity to defend and justify his Actions
So like in an arena or in a court - in public? :o :picard:
It's a completely normal technical/financial discussion about a piece of hardware. Why shouldn't this be discussed in public?
Bryce.
Well make up your minds people... private or public? :D
But I agree, since this was what should have taken place to begin with - it's a technical discussion that can and should have been laid out for all to see.
I see no reason why a discussion of the details of a product/device where the designer is happy to discuss and describe it should be private.
If this product/device was an item produced by a person / company that had no dealings with this community, and one of the members here was reviewing it, I would want the review to be open and honest about the production/device.
Sometimes I build bespoke items for people. If they want to know the details, of course I tell them. Including anything and everything about it. But, most don't want to know that level of detail.
As to the correct way to deal with poor or bad behaviour, well the members should respect the administrators and moderators. In most cases, the administrators don't make public all information. The administrators and moderators try to keep a forum like this a welcoming and friendly place with open discussion for all well behaved members. So if a member is misbehaving, they try to encourage that member to stop the bad behaviour.
Now, can we get back to talking about the computers please...
Mark
I think the discussion should be public as the matter affects everyone here.
In this case, it's not a passive hardware we're talking about, which may be done at a lower price, but a psu hardware which potentially can destroy our machines and thus requires better components with a higher price.
Honestly, my wife got her clothes burned because of a cheap mobile phone charger that exploded near her. She got no harm but could have been a disaster. So no more cheap adapters for me.
I think TotO is a great guy and his hardware is very nice and affordable, so I cannot understand all the fuss.
Bryce has already explained the technical details behind his product and he's in no way forcing anyone to buy it.
I'd really like TotO to come back and that we all be wiser so that a situation like this doesn't happen again.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, I agree, it would be good if TotO returns.
It's not good to have all this division.
Mark
Quote from: Bryce on 22:48, 06 January 17
It's a completely normal technical/financial discussion about a piece of hardware. Why shouldn't this be discussed in public?
Quote from: 1024MAK on 00:39, 07 January 17
I see no reason why a discussion of the details of a product/device where the designer is happy to discuss and describe it should be private.
Do you think, the main character of this diskussion is a technical one?
Is this thread focused on computers? (see the Subject of this thread)
Quote from: SOS on 01:25, 07 January 17
Do you think, the main character of this diskussion is a technical one?
Is this thread focused on computers? (see the Subject of this thread)
No. But before it went bad (prior to this thread), the discussion
should have been technical.
Now it's about rights and wrongs and what people have done, and what members want, or don't want. But the damage is done :( .
Mark
Quote from: 1024MAK on 02:04, 07 January 17
But the damage is done :( .
This is why IMHO such a discussion must never be in public.
To put someone on the public-pillory (Looks like for me) -right or wrong- is IMHO simply a maximization of damage (and how do they personal feel - oh no, that's ok or??)
@Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225) : Your hardware was presented on this forum : ok. But what Toto seemed to do was only to give advices privately to some friends, what he can do. I know him very well and I usually trust his knowledge in HW.
Whatever he thinks about your product, whatever the quality of your produc : what I can understand in this forum is that this problem DOES NOT concern the forum. So the banishment is unfair, is far as I can understand the problem (english is a bit hard to me). This BAN is insulting.
You can consider that the chinese product has not the quality requested, or you can regret that Toto gives advices by mail to the people he knows, there is no problem about the forum.
I might have another reaction if he paid a 30 seconds campaign on the TV to insult the lovely Amstrad CPC. But that never happened.
But what I know is that you never can say anything wrong about a project on a CPC forum. It seems to be a hiden rule. So if he didn't like your HW, he might just have kept silent (I guess).
The BAN is an overreaction. You should maybe have open a thread about the chinese product to compare it instead of the BAN...
I concur with GFXOR.
Now with my own words - I'll be short.
About the ban. PM/mails contents are private matter. Should not lead to a ban from public forum. I do like this behaviour: we/I don't write anything bad (or whatever) about a project or someone publicly - while we/I may write so privately.
About this post. See previous rule - is this a pillory? this post should not be public. It damages not only both sides - there are now some global damages.
No and no.
Nothing is private if it harms a member of the scene. This was not a private discussion between two members, it was a libelous act. And in order to counteract this libelous act, public action had to be taken. The alternative would be to 'hack' into his PMs and see who was contacted, then contact those members privately. Not the best solution.
And no, it's not a pillory. It's a public discussion of what happened, and why. If we apply this definition to all such public discussions then we cannot talk about something bad that a member does, ever.
Quote from: Gryzor on 09:07, 07 January 17
And no, it's not a pillory. It's a public discussion of what happened, and why.
For me it's look like a public pillory or an open court.
Quote from: Gryzor on 09:07, 07 January 17
If we apply this definition to all such public discussions then we cannot talk about something bad that a member does, ever.
I think, this is the main problem, where the views goes apart.
I think it must the same like in a business-company where two persons (ok, e. g. five/six/.. when the PM-User are considered) have a problem.
Does the Company-Leader diskuss this in public with the whole staff? In Germany this is not common and strange too.
I for one think the existence this thread is justified, I just received my X-mem with plans to develop software to take advantage of it, and was wondering why the CentPourCent store seemed to be down, so knowing what has happened makes it's closure understandable.
I don't want to comment on this particular case, but in general, I would hope that anyone contributed to the community would be given a second chance if they had done things that caused others concern.
I've got wound up and said and done things I've regretted later, I'm pretty sure we all do.
@SOS (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=941) : Ah, it may be a cultural thing. I do see what you mean; however I have an MBA and a number of advanced seminars on workplace ethics/psychology and administration over the years and, let me tell you, not once have I heard that things should be kept private when discipline is involved. Not that it happens that way usually, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't. Besides, one of the basic tenets of (western, at least) justice is that it be public.
@keith56 (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1886) : absolutely agree, and that's why the ban was temporary anyhow. Now the pillory podium is open for TotO to reply, too.
@SOS (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=941) @Gryzor (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1)
It's not a cultural thing, it's damage control 101.
The event has taken place, first step is to minimise the bad impact it may have and confine it's effect to the least possible number of people.
When you take internal matters to public it's like starting up a domino effect where you loose all means of control to make things right again.
Mainly because emotion will take over and logic won't be able to overcome it.
More people involved= more drama will kick in= stupid crap will be said= FUBAR situation...
@Gryzor (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1) : You punish first, and then listen to the explanations ?
I do the contrary...
@ASiC (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22) : He mentioned Germany, that's why I mentioned culture.
But I agree, it *is* damage control. If you let things fester under covers the damage will be greater, and experience even here proves this. If we had kept it under wraps, then all sorts of (justified) negative reactions would take place; conversely, nothing really bad has happened up to now with going public.
Not to mention, there *had* to be a public answer to what TotO claimed.
@GFXOR (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=113) : I see your point, but when rules are broken in a forum this is how it goes. TotO performed an act of defamation, hence a (rather mild) 'punishment'. No explanation is needed from his part.
Quote from: GFXOR on 02:42, 07 January 17
@Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225) : Your hardware was presented on this forum : ok. But what Toto seemed to do was only to give advices privately to some friends, what he can do.
If that had been the case it would be slightly different, but the people he contacted were both people who had ordered one of my devices. Coincidence? If they really were friends having a friendly chat, why did they feel the need for it to be reported?
As I have said before. If he really thought that the $1 Chinese device was in any way comparable to my 5VCPC, then a simple "Why is this any different to a $1 Chinese device?" in the appropriate thread would have been the right thing to do. It would have given me the chance to explain the differences in an open discussion. He didn't do this, he took a very different path and chose to make direct comments to interested parties in an area where I didn't have the opportunity to counter his incorrect claims.
Bryce.
As an administrator of a forum, if you do anything privately, users will always think that you are doing something shady on their back, so I think bringing the issue to the light was the right thing to do.
While I don't doubt of TotO's good intentions, the way he did it was wrong.
It's not that there's a silent rule to not criticize any hardware development, it's that if you don't do it in the public thread, you're backstabbing the developer without a chance to defend himself.
To make a mistake is quite common, but we learn from them. So let's learn from this and keep the CPC love coming!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
@Gryzor (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1)
So my understanding is that this *is* an open court since post #1 but the other party refused to defend their case...
Maybe because the sentence had already been carried...?
Anyway, what's done is done.
I'm just hopping that Bryce and TotO will talk this over and Lady Peace rule the Kingdom once more :D
As far as I am concerned, ToTo hasn't scammed anyone or been dishonest, so whatever... People in the real world fight or argue... we don't exile them. All that has happened, is whoever decided to exile ToTo has now alienated others also for no good reason.
Quote from: BryceIf that had been the case it would be slightly different, but the people he contacted were both people who had ordered one of my devices.
You are talking about... only 2 people ?
I am dreaming. For sure...
I appreciate TotO and his work, so I was quite surprised when I got his message.
Bryce hasn't been dishonest or scammed anyone either.
And TotO wasn't exiled. He did a mistake and was banned a short time as a result.
Seriously, let's cut the drama and learn the lesson so it won't happen again.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
TotO did something crappy, and was *mildly* reprimanded for it. He then threw a tantrum and closed his store. People here seem to be blaming Bryce and Gryzor for that result, when it was TotO's own decision to do it - and it was a shitty move explicitly meant to provoke this sort of drama.
Don't vilify the mods and give TotO a free pass just because he provided a service to the community. Bryce and Gryzor also provide vital services, sometimes out of their own pocket, and you don't see them closing the forums and storming off just because they have to deal with a bit of criticism.
Also, don't confuse TotO storming off with him being "exiled". We've only got the one exile and he behaved awfully for many years before finally being permabanned. TotO's done nothing at that level and it's purely up to him if he comes back or not.
Think the last 2 post say it all. Let the dust settle as time is a great healer.
Quote from: GFXOR on 02:42, 07 January 17
@Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225) : Your hardware was presented on this forum : ok. But what Toto seemed to do was only to give advices privately to some friends, what he can do. I know him very well and I usually trust his knowledge in HW.
Whatever he thinks about your product, whatever the quality of your produc : what I can understand in this forum is that this problem DOES NOT concern the forum. So the banishment is unfair, is far as I can understand the problem (english is a bit hard to me). This BAN is insulting.
You can consider that the chinese product has not the quality requested, or you can regret that Toto gives advices by mail to the people he knows, there is no problem about the forum.
I might have another reaction if he paid a 30 seconds campaign on the TV to insult the lovely Amstrad CPC. But that never happened.
But what I know is that you never can say anything wrong about a project on a CPC forum. It seems to be a hiden rule. So if he didn't like your HW, he might just have kept silent (I guess).
The BAN is an overreaction. You should maybe have open a thread about the chinese product to compare it instead of the BAN...
Do you really think Toto would have had no reaction if the same has been done to him ?
Quote from: robcfg on 10:52, 07 January 17
As an administrator of a forum, if you do anything privately, users will always think that you are doing something shady on their back, so I think bringing the issue to the light was the right thing to do.
While I don't doubt of TotO's good intentions, the way he did it was wrong.
It's not that there's a silent rule to not criticize any hardware development, it's that if you don't do it in the public thread, you're backstabbing the developer without a chance to defend himself.
To make a mistake is quite common, but we learn from them. So let's learn from this and keep the CPC love coming!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That is all an opinion anyway. It is like piracy on CPC. It is a farce to think it is ok sometimes and not other times... even though off topic, this forum and of course Wiki set of pages seems to be a piracy promotor... So, you don't like someone in your words 'backstabbing' a developer, but you are ok with piracy on a grand scale? What a joke - or... perhaps let everyone have their own opinion.
Erm... you're way off topic @zhulien (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=58) , stretching it way too far to just say something that's on your mind.
[ot]
But, just for the heck of it: there's nothing promoting 'piracy' on the wiki, and although we could spend hundreds and hundreds of pages discussing this like it has been done for the last 20 years, point in fact is we're standing at ethically sound ground. If a developer who has a still valid copyright feels like it he can ask us to withdraw any titles with no question. If you think that offering old titles within a much bigger community than ours alone, where old devs are happily participating, is somehow 'piracy' or 'stealing' or 'backstabbing' the devs, then by all means, feel free to leave from such a despicable place.[/ot]
Quote from: Gryzor on 13:12, 07 January 17
Erm... you're way off topic @zhulien (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=58) , stretching it way too far to just say something that's on your mind.
But, just for the heck of it: there's nothing promoting 'piracy' on the wiki, and although we could spend hundreds and hundreds of pages discussing this like it has been done for the last 20 years, point in fact is we're standing at ethically sound ground. If a developer who has a still valid copyright feels like it he can ask us to withdraw any titles with no question. If you think that offering old titles within a much bigger community than ours alone, where old devs are happily participating, is somehow 'piracy' or 'stealing' or 'backstabbing' the devs, then by all means, feel free to leave from such a despicable place.
It must have been my imagination that it is hosting (or linking) to lots of game ROMs converted to GX4000 'without' promoting the fact that probably not every single one of them has permission from the copyright holders - or the fact that the moderators here don't ban someone from promoting CPC Games CDs full of um... pirated? games? For the record, I don't care about piracy, new or old - I will do what doesn't get me in trouble with the law, it is not about any ethics for me and proudly to say it. I collect games because I like the original physical thing, but I don't give a hoot who pirates - but the standard of banning someone because their actions are unliked by someone but then allowing others to do what is clearly illegal is not credible either.
That was handled pretty badly. I've done my time as admin on several forums over the years.
You don't ban someone, bring an issue to light to the rest of forum to make judgment, and then say "it's only temporary, he'll be back to explain his side when the band expires". That's actually the most ass-backwards way of going about it.
If it's going to be brought to public light, then everyone should have their side explained at the same time.
In my experience, it's already blown when a statement begins with "Before you hear it elsewhere, etc, etc." Because it means you're getting a one sided story right off the bat. I'm not saying that Bryce is either right or wrong, but if you were TotO, would you bother returning after reading this thread to say your piece after reading six pages of this? I certainly wouldn't, regardless of how good (or bad) my intentions are.
We've shot first, and then asked questions later, and that's a really bad precident to set for a community forum in my honest opinion.
Admins police their forum, not the scene that it's involved with.
Shaun has a point. It probably would have been better to openly discuss what has happened with ToTO, then decide.
I'm a bit confused here, though. TotO did close his shop a few days ago while he wasn't banned, right? It looks to be unrelated to all this for someone who has not had an inkling of knowledge of it.
Quote from: Shaun M. Neary on 13:48, 07 January 17
bring an issue to light to the rest of forum to make judgment,
This isn't a court. There's no judgement to be made here, and we weren't asked for one. This thread was purely meant to inform us of what had already happened in private.
TotO is not under any current sanction. It's his own choice if he comes back here or not. And if he stays away out of spite, that's not the fault of anyone else here.
Can we lock this thread? It seems now to be a venue just for people to get inappropriately salty.
I've also had enough of this by now. The simple fact is, whether it was handled correctly or not, the whole thing would never have happened if TotO had not decided to do such a backhanded, mean-spirited, devious action as he did. He made a choice when he sent those PMs. They were NOT a friendly chat and they were NOT informative. There was no discussion such as "do you think his device is too expensive?", "I wonder if this device would do the same thing". They were intentionally directed at users who had stated interest in buying my device and linked directly to a cheap Chinese knock-off with the suggestion that my device was nothing better than these. This is a direct attack to try and undermine my project and the ban was put in place to stop his actions as quickly as possible before he did even more damage. I was informed of his actions late at night and the first two reports were also the first two people who stated interest in my project. I had no idea whether he had or was in the process of sending further e-mails to others who had stated interest so something needed to be done quickly. Everyone can have their own opinion as to whether that was the right decision in hindsight, but at the time it seemed like the best course of action.
TotO has still not had the decency to either apologise or justify his actions to me either privately or publicly, which gives me the impression that he still thinks that his actions were ok.
Bryce.
Well... if someone was selling game x and game x was crap and someone made their greatest effort to publicize that... they should have the right even if it was their own personal opinion not shared by others. I have no problem with toto or you brice. I don't really know either of you but to ban someone because such actions is just plain wrong... it actually makes me dislike this forum. Although I am not the most active participant I have been part of this community since the older version of this forum before it was migrated and never have I seen something so wrong in banning someone because of a squabble between members...
Publicized comes from the word public, and of course he would have been fully entitled to call me out in the public thread to question the merits and cost of my device, but he didn't do that, he spread completely untrue information through private e-mails directed at a very specific group of people, in such a way that his claims couldn't be defended. The devious part of this is that I am pretty sure that he has enough electronics knowledge to know that what he said was completely untrue.
If he had really thought that his information was true, why wasn't he stating it in the thread which was there to discuss the project? Why did he not contact me and ask for technical details. He could have done this at any time and all would have seen it, but I also would have had the oportunity to explain why his information is not correct. He made two comments in the thread, neither of them questioning the device nor suggesting that a chinese device might be able to do the same thing and then suddenly starts sending these PMs out?
Bryce.
Quote from: zhulien on 13:15, 07 January 17
It must have been my imagination that it is hosting (or linking) to lots of game ROMs converted to GX4000 'without' promoting the fact that probably not every single one of them has permission from the copyright holders - or the fact that the moderators here don't ban someone from promoting CPC Games CDs full of um... pirated? games? For the record, I don't care about piracy, new or old - I will do what doesn't get me in trouble with the law, it is not about any ethics for me and proudly to say it. I collect games because I like the original physical thing, but I don't give a hoot who pirates - but the standard of banning someone because their actions are unliked by someone but then allowing others to do what is clearly illegal is not credible either.
Now sure why you'd ask if it was your imagination when I said it plain as the light of day.
It's about the law, not the ethics for you - there you have it, I care about ethics and that's the rub. Even if by some impossible stretch we equate the zero damage of pirating a 30 year old game to the very real damage done in this case, you're still comparing apples to oranges, since in this case here it's not about law, it's about ethics. Naturally.
Quote from: Shaun M. Neary on 13:48, 07 January 17
That was handled pretty badly. I've done my time as admin on several forums over the years.
You don't ban someone, bring an issue to light to the rest of forum to make judgment, and then say "it's only temporary, he'll be back to explain his side when the band expires". That's actually the most ass-backwards way of going about it.
If it's going to be brought to public light, then everyone should have their side explained at the same time.
...
Admins police their forum, not the scene that it's involved with.
Absolutely not. I haven't seen a single forum where they have public judicial processes in effect. Admins and mods always take action single sided - and as a matter of fact this forum is the most lenient in this regards. THIS THREAD WAS
NOT OPENED to "make judgment", it was an ANNOUNCEMENT, and I don't really know how many more times we have to say this. We only laid it out for the world NOT to justify the action but to inform other members. TotO was given the opportunity to explain, he did not, even the ban was lifter because some users asked for it, an yet we're still arguing about holding an open trial before taking disciplinary action against members? In what universe?
Your last sentence makes little sense, I'm afraid - who is policing what scene?
Quote from: zhulien on 16:23, 07 January 17
Well... if someone was selling game x and game x was crap and someone made their greatest effort to publicize that... they should have the right even if it was their own personal opinion not shared by others.
As Bryce said, you provide the exact reason for the banning in your own words. Had TotO done this in public and openly criticised Bryce or anyone else it'd be a completely different issue. I really don't understand what's so difficult to understand about this... Sending PRIVATE messages without letting someone reply is... how can I say this? The *opposite* of "publicize".
OK Gryzor. You know my name. Please be sure that my software is not in the wiki or in the pirate cds being publicised in this forum. Thanks.
Quote from: zhulien on 17:11, 07 January 17
OK Gryzor. You know my name. Please be sure that my software is not in the wiki or in the pirate cds being publicised in this forum. Thanks.
Erm... even if this was not a childish response, no, I don't know your name and no, I couldn't check anything and everything, except for the direct contents of the server, so if there's an "illegal" copy of a game of yours here, please specify it.
PS feel free to open another thread to deal with totally off-topic issues. I will be removing posts from this thread from now on because we're veering too far off.
Quote from: Gryzor on 17:11, 07 January 17
THIS THREAD WAS NOT OPENED to "make judgment", it was an ANNOUNCEMENT, and I don't really know how many more times we have to say this.
Yes, you have not insert a new category "Judgment Court" but IMHO the thread looks like it.
So, this is a reason why in german companies where not discussed such content open for the whole staff.
IMHO such open discussion can't be ended harmonic.
I actually mistook this thread for bad moderator judgement... hense I didn't see apples and oranges. Gryzor I think you are a good moderator to date... but not this time.
Ok, after reading through some of this I've come to the understanding that Tot0 did a bad thing, possibly for good reasons, possibly not, but either way in a kind of ill-advised sneaky way which is against the general sense of community we have here. He could have communicated with Bryce publicy and voiced his concerns, if genuine, about the product right there in the relevant topic but chose not to do it that way. And for his actions he was suspended (that's what a temporary ban is, right? Like when you do something pretty bad at school) which he could use the time to think about what he did and how it was possibly not the best way to approach it or that he could have got his facts right before even performing the actions which led to his suspension. Instead he appears to have reacted by 'quitting' and backing away from the scene and the services he provided hopefully temporarily. I've done the same thing before even without having been banned or suspended. Sometimes I just needed a time out and I would kind of force myself into retreat by overreacting in some way so I felt it was necessary to calm down before I did something really stupid.
Anyways hopefully when this has all blown over Tot0 will rethink it all, come back, be a big man and apologise and we can all just go back to where we were before this unpleasantness. I wouldn't like the scene to lose him because he has proved to be a very valuable member of the CPC community and his creativity, software and hardware knowledge and skills are a great asset to us all.
That's the way I see it from reading all this stuff. I like to think I'm being impartial and have no real feelings one way or the other except for wanting all this arguing to stop. Come on, we CPC owners have been spoilt for choice recently with all the great stuff coming out for our beloved vintage hardware and looking ahead to even more awesomeness. Let's not spoil that but having our lil community fall apart.
The threads aren't what we want, but what they become, and this seems a dangerous snow ball of crap, so I think the best option is to close it as soon as possible, and even delete it... Just my opinion...
Quote from: Gryzor on 17:11, 07 January 17
As Bryce said, you provide the exact reason for the banning in your own words. Had TotO done this in public and openly criticised Bryce or anyone else it'd be a completely different issue. I really don't understand what's so difficult to understand about this... Sending PRIVATE messages without letting someone reply is... how can I say this? The *opposite* of "publicize".
My apologies. I misunderstood.
He used the PM service within the forum. I don't know why I read it as email. Once again, I stand corrected.
I still think a ban was too much of a heavy handed approach. A warning via a PM and a chance to TotO to explain himself in this would have probably how I would have handled it. An instant ban would probably have pissed me off to the point that I'd reject the opportunity to come back and explain because it immediately comes off as single sided. Had it been suggested to explain before a ban (and then a ban if the result wasn't satisfactory), it would have been fairer. Because it stands, we're still only getting one side of a possible three sided story
1) Bryce's side
2) TotO's side
3) The actual truth!*
*I'm cynical by nature, and usually both sides have tendencies to leave out fact ;)
The issue is the moderator stepped in with a punishment for doing nothing illegal when the same moderator allows illegal activities in the same forum.
Quote from: pelrun on 15:29, 07 January 17
This isn't a court. There's no judgement to be made here, and we weren't asked for one. This thread was purely meant to inform us of what had already happened in private.
After the fact that he was banned, and then we got informed with TotO not given a chance to give his side of the story. If you think that's fair, then whatever helps you sleep at night.
Quote
TotO is not under any current sanction. It's his own choice if he comes back here or not. And if he stays away out of spite, that's not the fault of anyone else here.
And had he been given that opportunity BEFORE he was banned, it wouldn't have looked so bad. But he wasn't, so it does.
QuoteCan we lock this thread? It seems now to be a venue just for people to get inappropriately salty.
Translation: Some of us can't handle opposing opinions, so lock the thread.
I'm sorry, the last I checked, we were all adults here. Nobody's getting salty. But locking the thread because you can't handle a counter argument is probably one of the most immature suggestions I've ever read on here!
Quote from: SOS on 17:35, 07 January 17
Yes, you have not insert a new category "Judgment Court" but IMHO the thread looks like it.
So, this is a reason why in german companies where not discussed such content open for the whole staff.
IMHO such open discussion can't be ended harmonic.
Again: this is NO judgment. Judgment was passed instantaneously when the PMs were reported. This was just to inform the community. I don't know why it's so hard to understand...
[ot]I've seen many firings of colleagues in my career; the best-handled one was at my first job for one of the biggest electronics companies - our director called us all into the meeting room and explained what had gone down and why our colleague had to be fired. Agreeing with him or not, it was by *far* the best-handled such incident I've ever seen. But in any case, I suppose what you mean is, we should have just handled it out of the light. And I say, once more, that another kind of shitstorm would be forthcoming. And rightly so.[/ot]
Quote from: zhulien on 17:55, 07 January 17
I actually mistook this thread for bad moderator judgement... hense I didn't see apples and oranges. Gryzor I think you are a good moderator to date... but not this time.
No hard feelings. It's impossible to be liked by everyone, all the time. Or even be correct.
Quote from: Shaun M. Neary on 18:04, 07 January 17
My apologies. I misunderstood.
He used the PM service within the forum. I don't know why I read it as email. Once again, I stand corrected.
Thanks. At least something was cleared up!
Quote from: Shaun M. Neary on 18:04, 07 January 17I still think a ban was too much of a heavy handed approach. A warning via a PM and a chance to TotO to explain himself in this would have probably how I would have handled it.
This was explained before, too:
1. his action was way too bad, and warning or not, the suspension (@Carnivius ;) ) was coming anyhow
2. it was done to prevent further PMs
3. after the previous incidents with other members misbehaving it was decided that, from now on, action would be more swift because clearly warnings and whatnot don't really work.
Quote from: MissionComplete on 18:02, 07 January 17
The threads aren't what we want, but what they become, and this seems a dangerous snow ball of crap, so I think the best option is to close it as soon as possible, and even delete it... Just my opinion...
I tend to agree. We're now at a point where we're going in circles, rehashing the same stuff. All points were made, so I think only bad blood can be the outcome of any future discussion. We're going to lock this thread, and if TotO insists he was right in his assessment he can offer it in the relevant thread. It's not about not being able to handle opposing arguments - that's why the thread was an open one from the off instead of just a locked announcement as is the usual method. It's just that by now it's counter-productive.
Quote from: zhulien on 18:06, 07 January 17
The issue is the moderator stepped in with a punishment for doing nothing illegal when the same moderator allows illegal activities in the same forum.
Technically speaking neither is strictly 'illegal'.
If a copyright holder wants something out of this site, he only needs to tell us and will be done. What we don't enforce other people's copyright, that's something for the rights owner to do. So if the rights holder stay silent we aren't doing anything illegal.
What TotO did is not illegal, but is considered bad practice and bad behaviour. Which is the most surprising because we hold TotO as a good forum member.
Would you feel good about offering some service and then having someone talking to your client on your back telling him your service is not good or overpriced, with a chance of losing your contract?
I think you're being quite fanatic about the whole issue and you don't see the big picture.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Gryzor on 17:01, 07 January 17
Now sure why you'd ask if it was your imagination when I said it plain as the light of day.
It's about the law, not the ethics for you - there you have it, I care about ethics and that's the rub. Even if by some impossible stretch we equate the zero damage of pirating a 30 year old game to the very real damage done in this case, you're still comparing apples to oranges, since in this case here it's not about law, it's about ethics. Naturally.
Not that i care, but that's quite selective as ethics go if you decide that copying others work against their wishes (as they have copyrighted their work with "all rights reserved") is OK.
Sorry, but sometimes the double standards of the "retro" communities are baffling.
Quote from: Gryzor on 17:17, 07 January 17
Erm... even if this was not a childish response, no, I don't know your name and no, I couldn't check anything and everything, except for the direct contents of the server, so if there's an "illegal" copy of a game of yours here, please specify it.
PS feel free to open another thread to deal with totally off-topic issues. I will be removing posts from this thread from now on because we're veering too far off.
He has a point, like it or not.
If you think this is off-topic I guess I'll keep myself away from this forum and just come here to announce releases (if anything) hoping that that would be on topic.
It *is* off topic, but I didn't say it's prohibited to discuss. By this logic we could extend this to anything ethics-related - who knows, maybe we have vegans here who would like to chime in about all the times we've mentioned meat-eating. That's ethics too, ain't it?
Again: we can discuss it elsewhere, would be more than happy to, actually, because it's a very interesting topic. But it's another topic. This topic is about announcing the TotO banning, not the general ethics of our platform. And although I can clearly see the temptation to go there -it's but a step-, this thread is already convoluted enough.
Quote from: Gryzor on 19:19, 07 January 17
It *is* off topic, but I didn't say it's prohibited to discuss. By this logic we could extend this to anything ethics-related - who knows, maybe we have vegans here who would like to chime in about all the times we've mentioned meat-eating. That's ethics too, ain't it?
Again: we can discuss it elsewhere, would be more than happy to, actually, because it's a very interesting topic. But it's another topic. This topic is about announcing the TotO banning, not the general ethics of our platform. And although I can clearly see the temptation to go there -it's but a step-, this thread is already convoluted enough.
Yes, although veganism is perhaps not related to the Amstrad CPC; I guess until we stop the climate change crisis anything goes...
My point is that, in this specific case, your ban was unjustified, and the "ethics" excuse is a bit far-fetched. This is my opinion, that probably has less weight than yours.
I'm not defending Toto, and I'm not judging him either; but he could have done the same thing by mail so banning him doesn't address the issue and points out that sometimes moderators can make mistakes.
Quote from: Gryzor on 18:58, 07 January 17
[ot]I suppose what you mean is, we should have just handled it out of the light.[/ot]
No, I mean, one should not publish the misdoings of somebody in the public and spread them,
so that everyone - even everyone - must really-really-really knows it.
The mentality/style in Germany is certainly different.
Problem is, keeping it under the hood prevents learning a valuable lesson.
The thing is, TotO should have asked Bryce about his device pricing on the thread and we'd have had a detailed explanation. End of the story.
In my experience, there's nothing a forum administrator can do to keep everyone happy when a situation arises.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Another discussion here that will lead right to nowhere... In cases like this a moderator can't do it right or wrong, as people judge the situation different. Influenced from their personal experiences, culture, actual mood, whateveryouwant... What we now can see on 9 pages...
I say this even if it's my very personal point of view that it's really always the worst decision to ban users or lock threads, except any laws are concerned (and a few other exceptions). What's not the case here... What TotO did was just wrong and some kind of bad behaviour. I think it would have been enough to state this publicly in the thread and also why his suggestion is not a reasonable alternative.
Whatever, people make decisions and they do it a whole life long. But people also learn their whole life long. We should return to normality, enough of collateral damages here. Sadly.
What did TotO was not wrong, sorry.
He sincerely thought he was helping 2 people to save 25 euros each ! If you say to anybody : "Don't buy it, it is too expensive", it is not unethical, but usefull. TotO didn't denigrate Bryce's card, he just gave an alternative 25 times less expensive.
What will never happen in this thread :
– Gryzor will apology for his bad judgment, BAN himself 2 days and everybody will laugh,
– Someone will declare here that 25 euros for the Bryce hardware is too expansive when chinese sell (almost) the same for 1 euro,
– Tell Bryce that getting 10 euros profit for his time does not justify to accuse TotO to ruin his business. If there is no business, there is also no consequence, and no mistake from TotO...
Don't turn around, this is the point.
As I said, I don't doubt TotO's intentions, but Bryce has already explained why is not a good idea to use the chinese dc/dc converter on our machines. If you haven't read it, please do it.
The way he did it was wrong. It's the kind of behaviour you find on consulting companies and not a forum.
Why didn't he just gave his opinion on the thread?
Many of you have criticized the forum staff for leaving TotO unable to answer but you think it's right to tell the members interested in Bryce's hardware that he's basically trying to rip us off behind his back where he's unable to answer and solve the doubts.
Also Bryce doesn't run a business. Designing the board, asking components, testing and assembling is quite a sum of money, which must be put down beforehand. By telling people to go for another device will make him lose that money so, yes, there are consequences. Real ones.
I appreciate that TotO's friend are willing to defend him, but in this case he just did not the right thing.
Bryce and Gryzor have explained their side of the story. Now that the ban was lifted I'd expect TotO to explain his.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
QuoteWhat did TotO was not wrong, sorry.
Let me voice what i think about this matter : doing such a "submarine" work to shot down a product just because you estimate that it costs too much is just bad behaviour.
Everybody has the right to invent, design, create a device, some hardware, some software without going undercover and communicate to people by saying "look, it's a scam, it's too expensive, look, there's a 1 dollar shit model made by the chinese for 1 dollar".
This goes against the CPC communauty, against other people making hardware, against people who want to create new devices for the CPC, all this just because of..... jealousy ? The fact that Bryce could potentially give a bit more money than he did with its own creation ?
Let's call a cat a cat and a dog a dog. What happened is clearly the worst "i try to kill the competition by screaming 'scammer' to them".
Competition is good and benefits to everyone.
QuoteHe sincerely thought he was helping 2 people to save 25 euros each ! If you say to anybody : "Don't buy it, it is too expensive", it is not unethical, but usefull. TotO didn't denigrate Bryce's card, he just gave an alternative 25 times less expensive.
People must have the CHOICE. Nobody has the right to come and say "hey that's scam", just because they think what the competition is doing is too expensive.
If people want the 25 euros devices, then be it, let's them have it ! The worst to me is that by showing the 1$ crap chinese equivalent, he is doing harm to what Bryce is doing.
A 1$ crap shit device made in china won't last, because the manufacturing is just rubbish. A 25 euros device, built with the best parts will last long.
What Toto did has a name, it's free defamation.
QuoteWhat will never happen in this thread :
– Gryzor will apology for his bad judgment, BAN himself 2 days and everybody will laugh,
– Someone will declare here that 25 euros for the Bryce hardware is too expansive when chinese sell (almost) the same for 1 euro,
– Tell Bryce that getting 10 euros profit for his time does not justify to accuse TotO to ruin his business. If there is no business, there is also no consequence, and no mistake from TotO...
Don't turn around, this is the point.
Gryzor did the right thing, and i say it publicly. You have a clue GFXOR of what is happening when a person in real life is bringing defamation onto someone else business ?
In France, it has a name, it's called : "
LA CONCURRENCE DELOYALE PAR DENIGREMENT (https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwicleWXyLHRAhVFChoKHYWGCk8QFggoMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.murielle-cahen.com%2Fpublications%2Fconcurrence-deloyale.asp&usg=AFQjCNG6Mg7O46oOX_hSCaIlUx7unVb3AA&sig2=cShnZmZwMuIp6tQ3kGkLww&bvm=bv.142059868,d.d2s)"
In english, it translates by "[/color]
[/size]Unfair Competition by Misrepresentation"Doind a misrepresentation of the competition prices is Unfair Competition. Toto didn't had the right to do what he did.
So what if someone msg people they knew were interested in buying iphones stating that Chinese made product is over 5 times its manufacture cost and it was a complete ripoff? A moderator to ban would be wrong. If it were against the terms of the forum when joining fair enough.
Yes, because comparing a small, amateur close-knit community to one of the biggest corporations is a valid comparison, sure.
Let me tell you though, if Apple felt threatened by such practices, or say, if it was Samsung that was doing the defamation, a lawsuit would come in so fast you wouldn't have the time to bat an eyelid.
My gosh you are full of double standards.
Quote from: zhulien on 09:32, 08 January 17
My gosh you are full of double standards.
Not really. You weren't comparing like for like...
I don't have all the information, but I think I can understand everyone.
I understand Bryce, because he has felt that his work, his knowlegde and even his honesty have been questionned, and not face to face, but in the back.
I understand Gryzor, because is not easy to be moderator. To resolve conflicts without collateral damage is a difficult work. Always there will be someone unhappy and thankless who probably would do a worst work.
And, finally, I understand TotO, if he feel hurt now, because he was banned before he had the chance to explain their acts and a long thread of judgements about his person has been developed during his absence.
As human beings, all of us makes mistakes. And, probably, that was the case. Even me and all the participants not directly implicated, for giving our opinions so easyly. The problem here is who begin to admit it.
Quote from: zhulien on 08:53, 08 January 17
So what if someone msg people they knew were interested in buying iphones stating that Chinese made product is over 5 times its manufacture cost and it was a complete ripoff? A moderator to ban would be wrong. If it were against the terms of the forum when joining fair enough.
Ok, Come on Zhulien, we ALL know that for a same product, one manufactured for 25 euros and the other for 1 dollar will have a serious difference in quality, not mentioning the life span !
Of course the 25 euros product will last longer, of course the 1 dollar product will poop on you as soon as it can !
Seriously, paying for 1 dollar devices is encouraging shit companies to make shit products ! A good product has got a price !
So if what happened was really a scam or a rip-off, so a BMW car is a rip off, it doesn't value the money the manufacturer ask for one model, The car should be sold 500 euros instead of 20.000 ?
Haven't read much from this thread because I'm too lazy.
Just wanna suggest that we blame it all on russian haxors and then come back together right now in sweet harmony and live happily together in cyberspace.
Quote from: GFXOR on 01:28, 08 January 17
What did TotO was not wrong, sorry.
He sincerely thought he was helping 2 people to save 25 euros each ! If you say to anybody : "Don't buy it, it is too expensive", it is not unethical, but usefull. TotO didn't denigrate Bryce's card, he just gave an alternative 25 times less expensive.
What will never happen in this thread :
– Gryzor will apology for his bad judgment, BAN himself 2 days and everybody will laugh,
– Someone will declare here that 25 euros for the Bryce hardware is too expansive when chinese sell (almost) the same for 1 euro,
– Tell Bryce that getting 10 euros profit for his time does not justify to accuse TotO to ruin his business. If there is no business, there is also no consequence, and no mistake from TotO...
Don't turn around, this is the point.
Can you please stop stretching the figures to fit your argument:
The price of my device is
€24 not €25.
The price difference between actual component costs and end user price is
€7.93 not €10
. If all component delivery costs are included the price difference is around
€6.
50 and even then, this is
NOT profit because still doesn't include any other overheads or consumables that I use during the manufacturing of the devices. Forget the time and effort I put into it, I'd earn more behind the counter of McDonalds.
The chinese device is possibly (almost) the same thing if you know very little about electronics, but for anyone with knowledge of the subject they are very different devices.
If TotO sincerely thought he was offering an alternative, then his electronics knowledge is a lot less than I previously thought and I apologise for claiming it was vindictive, when it was just a case of lack of knowledge.
Bryce.
When Amstrad took over Sinclair, Amstrads designers were shocked of some of the shortcuts and what to them seemed very bad design descissions Sinclair had taken with the Spectrum. It worked for Sinclair. I understand that we not always need the Rolls-Royce of electronics. Cheap Chinese products works for some, others won't be seen near them.
But maybe, this is beside the point. I guess both Bryce and Toto feel that the other one is wrong and should apologize. I assume we won't see neither. It's often not so easy to see the point of the other side, understand their thinking. I do not know if there is a past grudge between the two of them as they both work with CPC electronics. If not, I can only assume Toto had good intentions and that he felt he did what's right.
I don't know Toto, haven't bought any of his electronics. I know only his work through Easter Egg and his work there has been highly appreciated. They have made the Amstrad sing well. 50 copies of the excellent were soon to be sent out from Toto. For many this was like Retro Gamer christmas.
Bryce has been very helpful helping people here with any hardware problem, many have even sent their equipment home to him for repair. I think he have this for free, which is quite outstanding in the world we live in today.
Please continue your good work both of you. You're work has been very highly appreciated in the Amstrad community for many years
I don't know what Amstrad employees thought of Sinclair designs, as I was not there. But keep in mind that before computers, Amstrad manufacturered cheap audio systems.
And various computer products from various manufacturers used different techniques to try to keep the cost low. Including Amstrad.
Given the segmentation of the home computer market at the time, with lots of "mine is better than yours" type attitudes, I'm not surprised that comments like this (Amstrad shocked at how Sinclair had done things) were banded around.
But, whatever was said back then, and whatever is said now, both Sinclair and Amstrad made computers and shifted millions of those computers. Both repaired or replaced any faulty units within the one year warranty period that was typical for that period of time. And both supplied products that complied with the electrical standards of the time.
And a great deal of those computers still work 30+ years later. Yes, some have had servicing and repair work done. But the same applies to more expensive computers like the Acorn BBC range.
Now, can you say the same for the extremely cheap products that are manufactured down to silly low prices from China?
Having some knowledge of electronics (I did a formal electronic and electrical course at college) I have taken apart some cheap power supply units from China. The quality overall is often poor, the design is often as cheap as is possible, the components are of suspect quality, RF suppression systems are missing, the regulation control circuit is either primitive or poor, the output filtering is barely adequate and not all safety requirements are met. Yet, if you buy quality items (with matching prices), you will often find a quality PSU that is also made in China.
The customer should decide what they want. On a forum like this, that means helping one another out. Not starting flame wars with each other.
People are only here because they value those 1980's and 1990's home computers. Computers that are no longer made. Computers where custom made spare parts may no longer be available. So if people want them to continue working, reasonable care should be taken when repairing or modifying them.
Mark
I will also miss TotO's ingenuity, but at the end of the day, secrecy can only lead to rumour & innuendo.
Did Bryce do the right thing? It seems that it's a matter of opinion, but it's important to keep in mind that the action was a 'reaction'. He reacted to a situation in the way he thought best at the time. Would we have done any different? I don't think it's fair for us to judge, as we all have the benefit of being detached from the situation. We are outsiders looking in.
What is done is done. I hope TotO comes back, & it would be nice for the fences to be mended, but that's up to the 2 individuals involved.
What would be best for us all is to look at the situation, say 'yep, that happened' & move on.
Quote from: 1024MAK on 16:16, 09 January 17
I don't know what Amstrad employees thought of Sinclair designs, as I was not there. But keep in mind that before computers, Amstrad manufacturered cheap audio systems.
And various computer products from various manufacturers used different techniques to try to keep the cost low. Including Amstrad.
Given the segmentation of the home computer market at the time, with lots of "mine is better than yours" type attitudes, I'm not surprised that comments like this (Amstrad shocked at how Sinclair had done things) were banded around.
But, whatever was said back then, and whatever is said now, both Sinclair and Amstrad made computers and shifted millions of those computers. Both repaired or replaced any faulty units within the one year warranty period that was typical for that period of time. And both supplied products that complied with the electrical standards of the time.
It was Cliff Lawson that said this sometimes between 1995 and 2000 when News was the main Amstrad discussion forum. He lead the Amstrad team for the Amstrad made Spectrums. It was not a rumour that was out there while the machines were sold
haha this is Amstrad spirit scene :picard:
Fortunately Commodore scene is well different and so much powerful ;D
Long live commodore C64 !!!!! 8)
Troll detected, please don't mind him guys...
Quote from: majikeyric on 15:59, 10 January 17
haha this is Amstrad spirit scene :picard:
Fortunately Commodore scene is well different and so much powerful ;D
Long live commodore C64 !!!!! 8)
Is good to know that the scene of a pseudo-computer-console-toy 1mhz crap where his floppy interface is almost as powerful as the central unit and the predominant color is brown-poop must be united!! go guys!! go!!!
Quote from: majikeyric on 15:59, 10 January 17
haha this is Amstrad spirit scene :picard:
Fortunately Commodore scene is well different and so much powerful ;D
Long live commodore C64 !!!!! 8)
Nice game bug hunt!
Kisses
I'm really sorry TotO has left.