Where is TotO?

[zhulien]

The issue is the moderator stepped in with a punishment for doing nothing illegal when the same moderator allows illegal activities in the same forum.

[Shaun M. Neary]

This isn't a court. There's no judgement to be made here, and we weren't asked for one. This thread was purely meant to inform us of what had already happened in private.

After the fact that he was banned, and then we got informed with TotO not given a chance to give his side of the story. If you think that's fair, then whatever helps you sleep at night.

TotO is not under any current sanction. It's his own choice if he comes back here or not. And if he stays away out of spite, that's not the fault of anyone else here.

And had he been given that opportunity BEFORE he was banned, it wouldn't have looked so bad. But he wasn't, so it does.

Can we lock this thread? It seems now to be a venue just for people to get inappropriately salty.

Translation: Some of us can't handle opposing opinions, so lock the thread.
I'm sorry, the last I checked, we were all adults here. Nobody's getting salty. But locking the thread because you can't handle a counter argument is probably one of the most immature suggestions I've ever read on here!

[Gryzor]

Yes, you have not insert a new category "Judgment Court" but IMHO the thread looks like it.
So, this is a reason why in german companies where not discussed such content open for the whole staff.
IMHO such open discussion can't be ended harmonic.

Again: this is NO judgment. Judgment was passed instantaneously when the PMs were reported. This was just to inform the community. I don't know why it's so hard to understand...


[ot]I've seen many firings of colleagues in my career; the best-handled one was at my first job for one of the biggest electronics companies - our director called us all into the meeting room and explained what had gone down and why our colleague had to be fired. Agreeing with him or not, it was by *far* the best-handled such incident I've ever seen. But in any case, I suppose what you mean is, we should have just handled it out of the light. And I say, once more, that another kind of shitstorm would be forthcoming. And rightly so.[/ot]

I actually mistook this thread for bad moderator judgement... hense I didn't see apples and oranges. Gryzor I think you are a good moderator to date... but not this time.

No hard feelings. It's impossible to be liked by everyone, all the time. Or even be correct.

My apologies. I misunderstood.
He used the PM service within the forum. I don't know why I read it as email. Once again, I stand corrected.

Thanks. At least something was cleared up!

I still think a ban was too much of a heavy handed approach. A warning via a PM and a chance to TotO to explain himself in this would have probably how I would have handled it.

This was explained before, too:
1. his action was way too bad, and warning or not, the suspension (@Carnivius ) was coming anyhow
2. it was done to prevent further PMs
3. after the previous incidents with other members misbehaving it was decided that, from now on, action would be more swift because clearly warnings and whatnot don't really work.

The threads aren't what we want, but what they become, and this seems a dangerous snow ball of crap, so I think the best option is to close it as soon as possible, and even delete it... Just my opinion...

I tend to agree. We're now at a point where we're going in circles, rehashing the same stuff. All points were made, so I think only bad blood can be the outcome of any future discussion. We're going to lock this thread, and if TotO insists he was right in his assessment he can offer it in the relevant thread. It's not about not being able to handle opposing arguments - that's why the thread was an open one from the off instead of just a locked announcement as is the usual method. It's just that by now it's counter-productive.

[robcfg]

The issue is the moderator stepped in with a punishment for doing nothing illegal when the same moderator allows illegal activities in the same forum.

Technically speaking neither is strictly 'illegal'.

If a copyright holder wants something out of this site, he only needs to tell us and will be done. What we don't enforce other people's copyright, that's something for the rights owner to do. So if the rights holder stay silent we aren't doing anything illegal.

What TotO did is not illegal, but is considered bad practice and bad behaviour. Which is the most surprising because we hold TotO as a good forum member.

Would you feel good about offering some service and then having someone  talking to your client on your back telling him your service is not good or overpriced, with a chance of losing your contract?

I think you're being quite fanatic about the whole issue and you don't see the big picture.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[reidrac]

Now sure why you'd ask if it was your imagination when I said it plain as the light of day.


It's about the law, not the ethics for you - there you have it, I care about ethics and that's the rub. Even if by some impossible stretch we equate the zero damage of pirating a 30 year old game to the very real damage done in this case, you're still comparing apples to oranges, since in this case here it's not about law, it's about ethics. Naturally.

Not that i care, but that's quite selective as ethics go if you decide that copying others work against their wishes (as they have copyrighted their work with "all rights reserved") is OK.

Sorry, but sometimes the double standards of the "retro" communities are baffling.

[reidrac]

Erm... even if this was not a childish response, no, I don't know your name and no, I couldn't check anything and everything, except for the direct contents of the server, so if there's an "illegal" copy of a game of yours here, please specify it.


PS feel free to open another thread to deal with totally off-topic issues. I will be removing posts from this thread from now on because we're veering too far off.

He has a point, like it or not.

If you think this is off-topic I guess I'll keep myself away from this forum and just come here to announce releases (if anything) hoping that that would be on topic.

[Gryzor]

It *is* off topic, but I didn't say it's prohibited to discuss. By this logic we could extend this to anything ethics-related - who knows, maybe we have vegans here who would like to chime in about all the times we've mentioned meat-eating. That's ethics too, ain't it?


Again: we can discuss it elsewhere, would be more than happy to, actually, because it's a very interesting topic. But it's another topic. This topic is about announcing the TotO banning, not the general ethics of our platform. And although I can clearly see the temptation to go there -it's but a step-, this thread is already convoluted enough.

[reidrac]

It *is* off topic, but I didn't say it's prohibited to discuss. By this logic we could extend this to anything ethics-related - who knows, maybe we have vegans here who would like to chime in about all the times we've mentioned meat-eating. That's ethics too, ain't it?


Again: we can discuss it elsewhere, would be more than happy to, actually, because it's a very interesting topic. But it's another topic. This topic is about announcing the TotO banning, not the general ethics of our platform. And although I can clearly see the temptation to go there -it's but a step-, this thread is already convoluted enough.

Yes, although veganism is perhaps not related to the Amstrad CPC; I guess until we stop the climate change crisis anything goes...

My point is that, in this specific case, your ban was unjustified, and the "ethics" excuse is a bit far-fetched. This is my opinion, that probably has less weight than yours.

I'm not defending Toto, and I'm not judging him either; but he could have done the same thing by mail so banning him doesn't address the issue and points out that sometimes moderators can make mistakes.

[SOS]

[ot]I suppose what you mean is, we should have just handled it out of the light.[/ot]

No, I mean, one should not publish the misdoings of somebody in the public and spread them,
so that everyone - even everyone - must really-really-really knows it.

The mentality/style in Germany is certainly different.

[robcfg]

Problem is, keeping it under the hood prevents learning a valuable lesson.

The thing is, TotO should have asked Bryce about his device pricing on the thread and we'd have had a detailed explanation. End of the story.

In my experience, there's nothing a forum administrator can do to keep everyone happy when a situation arises.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[villain]

Another discussion here that will lead right to nowhere... In cases like this a moderator can't do it right or wrong, as people judge the situation different. Influenced from their personal experiences, culture, actual mood, whateveryouwant... What we now can see on 9 pages...

I say this even if it's my very personal point of view that it's really always the worst decision to ban users or lock threads, except any laws are concerned (and a few other exceptions). What's not the case here... What TotO did was just wrong and some kind of bad behaviour. I think it would have been enough to state this publicly in the thread and also why his suggestion is not a reasonable alternative.

Whatever, people make decisions and they do it a whole life long. But people also learn their whole life long. We should return to normality, enough of collateral damages here. Sadly.

[GFXOR]

What did TotO was not wrong, sorry.

He sincerely thought he was helping 2 people to save 25 euros each ! If you say to anybody : "Don't buy it, it is too expensive", it is not unethical, but usefull. TotO didn't denigrate Bryce's card, he just gave an alternative 25 times less expensive.

What will never happen in this thread :
– Gryzor will apology for his bad judgment, BAN himself 2 days and everybody will laugh,
– Someone will declare here that 25 euros for the Bryce hardware is too expansive when chinese sell (almost) the same for 1 euro,
– Tell Bryce that getting 10 euros profit for his time does not justify to accuse TotO to ruin his business. If there is no business, there is also no consequence, and no mistake from TotO...

Don't turn around, this is the point.

[robcfg]

As I said, I don't doubt TotO's intentions,  but Bryce has already explained why is not a good idea to use the chinese dc/dc converter on our machines. If you haven't read it, please do it.

The way he did it was wrong. It's the kind of behaviour you find on consulting companies and not a forum.

Why didn't he just gave his opinion on the thread?

Many of you have criticized the forum staff for leaving TotO unable to answer but you think it's right to tell the members interested in Bryce's hardware that he's basically trying to rip us off behind his back where he's unable to answer and solve the doubts.

Also Bryce doesn't run a business. Designing the board, asking components, testing and assembling is quite a sum of money, which must be put down beforehand. By telling people to go for another device will make him lose that money so, yes, there are consequences. Real ones.

I appreciate that TotO's friend are willing to defend him, but in this case he just did not the right thing.

Bryce and Gryzor have explained their side of the story. Now that the ban was lifted I'd expect TotO to explain his.


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[dlfrsilver]

What did TotO was not wrong, sorry.

Let me voice what i think about this matter : doing such a "submarine" work to shot down a product just because you estimate that it costs too much is just bad behaviour.


Everybody has the right to invent, design, create a device, some hardware, some software without going undercover and communicate to people by saying "look, it's a scam, it's too expensive, look, there's a 1 dollar shit model made by the chinese for 1 dollar".


This goes against the CPC communauty, against other people making hardware, against people who want to create new devices for the CPC, all this just because of..... jealousy ? The fact that Bryce could potentially give a bit more money than he did with its own creation ?


Let's call a cat a cat and a dog a dog. What happened is clearly the worst "i try to kill the competition by screaming 'scammer' to them".


Competition is good and benefits to everyone.

He sincerely thought he was helping 2 people to save 25 euros each ! If you say to anybody : "Don't buy it, it is too expensive", it is not unethical, but usefull. TotO didn't denigrate Bryce's card, he just gave an alternative 25 times less expensive.

People must have the CHOICE. Nobody has the right to come and say "hey that's scam", just because they think what the competition is doing is too expensive.


If people want the 25 euros devices, then be it, let's them have it ! The worst to me is that by showing the 1$ crap chinese equivalent, he is doing harm to what Bryce is doing.


A 1$ crap shit device made in china won't last, because the manufacturing is just rubbish. A 25 euros device, built with the best parts will last long.

What Toto did has a name, it's free defamation.

What will never happen in this thread :
– Gryzor will apology for his bad judgment, BAN himself 2 days and everybody will laugh,
– Someone will declare here that 25 euros for the Bryce hardware is too expansive when chinese sell (almost) the same for 1 euro,
– Tell Bryce that getting 10 euros profit for his time does not justify to accuse TotO to ruin his business. If there is no business, there is also no consequence, and no mistake from TotO...

Don't turn around, this is the point.

Gryzor did the right thing, and i say it publicly. You have a clue GFXOR of what is happening when a person in real life is bringing defamation onto someone else business ?


In France, it has a name, it's called : "LA CONCURRENCE DELOYALE PAR DENIGREMENT"


In english, it translates by "[/color][/size]Unfair Competition by Misrepresentation"


Doind a misrepresentation of the competition prices is Unfair Competition. Toto didn't had the right to do what he did.

[zhulien]

So what if someone msg people they knew were interested in buying iphones stating that Chinese made product is over 5 times its manufacture cost and it was a complete ripoff? A moderator to ban would be wrong. If it were against the terms of the forum when joining fair enough.

[Gryzor]

Yes, because comparing a small, amateur close-knit community to one of the biggest corporations is a valid comparison, sure.


Let me tell you though, if Apple felt threatened by such practices, or say, if it was Samsung that was doing the defamation, a lawsuit would come in so fast you wouldn't have the time to bat an eyelid.

[zhulien]

My gosh you are full of double standards.

[Shaun M. Neary]

My gosh you are full of double standards.

Not really. You weren't comparing like for like...

[MissionComplete]

I don't have all the information, but I think I can understand everyone.

I understand Bryce, because he has felt that his work, his knowlegde and even his honesty have been questionned, and not face to face, but in the back.

I understand Gryzor, because is not easy to be moderator. To resolve conflicts without collateral damage is a difficult work. Always there will be someone unhappy and thankless who probably would do a worst work.

And, finally, I understand TotO, if he feel hurt now, because he was banned before he had the chance to explain their acts and a long thread of judgements about his person has been developed during his absence.

As human beings, all of us makes mistakes. And, probably, that was the case. Even me and all the participants not directly implicated, for giving our opinions so easyly. The problem here is who begin to admit it.

[dlfrsilver]

So what if someone msg people they knew were interested in buying iphones stating that Chinese made product is over 5 times its manufacture cost and it was a complete ripoff? A moderator to ban would be wrong. If it were against the terms of the forum when joining fair enough.

Ok, Come on Zhulien, we ALL know that for a same product, one manufactured for 25 euros and the other for 1 dollar will have a serious difference in quality, not mentioning the life span !


Of course the 25 euros product will last longer, of course the 1 dollar product will poop on you as soon as it can !


Seriously, paying for 1 dollar devices is encouraging shit companies to make shit products ! A good product has got a price !


So if what happened was really a scam or a rip-off, so a BMW car is a rip off, it doesn't value the money the manufacturer ask for one model, The car should be sold 500 euros instead of 20.000 ?

[mr_lou]

Haven't read much from this thread because I'm too lazy.

Just wanna suggest that we blame it all on russian haxors and then come back together right now in sweet harmony and live happily together in cyberspace.

[Bryce]

What did TotO was not wrong, sorry.

He sincerely thought he was helping 2 people to save 25 euros each ! If you say to anybody : "Don't buy it, it is too expensive", it is not unethical, but usefull. TotO didn't denigrate Bryce's card, he just gave an alternative 25 times less expensive.

What will never happen in this thread :
– Gryzor will apology for his bad judgment, BAN himself 2 days and everybody will laugh,
– Someone will declare here that 25 euros for the Bryce hardware is too expansive when chinese sell (almost) the same for 1 euro,
– Tell Bryce that getting 10 euros profit for his time does not justify to accuse TotO to ruin his business. If there is no business, there is also no consequence, and no mistake from TotO...

Don't turn around, this is the point.

Can you please stop stretching the figures to fit your argument:
The price of my device is €24 not €25.
The price difference between actual component costs and end user price is €7.93 not €10. If all component delivery costs are included the price difference is around €6.50 and even then, this is NOT profit because still doesn't include any other overheads or consumables that I use during the manufacturing of the devices. Forget the time and effort I put into it, I'd earn more behind the counter of McDonalds.

The chinese device is possibly (almost) the same thing if you know very little about electronics, but for anyone with knowledge of the subject they are very different devices.
If TotO sincerely thought he was offering an alternative, then his electronics knowledge is a lot less than I previously thought and I apologise for claiming it was vindictive, when it was just a case of lack of knowledge.

Bryce.

[ivarf]

When Amstrad took over Sinclair, Amstrads designers were shocked of some of the shortcuts and what to them seemed very bad design descissions Sinclair had taken with the Spectrum. It worked for Sinclair. I understand that we not always need the Rolls-Royce of electronics. Cheap Chinese products works for some, others won't be seen near them.

But maybe, this is beside the point. I guess both Bryce and Toto feel that the other one is wrong and should apologize. I assume we won't see neither. It's often not so easy to see the point of the other side, understand their thinking. I do not know if there is a past grudge between the two of them as they both work with CPC electronics. If not, I can only assume Toto had good intentions and that he felt he did what's right.

I don't know Toto, haven't bought any of his electronics. I know only his work through Easter Egg and his work there has been highly appreciated. They have made the Amstrad sing well. 50 copies of the excellent were soon to be sent out from Toto. For many this was like Retro Gamer christmas.

Bryce has been very helpful helping people here with any hardware problem, many have even sent their equipment home to him for repair. I think he have this for free, which is quite outstanding in the world we live in today.

Please continue your good work both of you. You're work has been very highly appreciated in the Amstrad community for many years

[1024MAK]

I don't know what Amstrad employees thought of Sinclair designs, as I was not there. But keep in mind that before computers, Amstrad manufacturered cheap audio systems.

And various computer products from various manufacturers used different techniques to try to keep the cost low. Including Amstrad.

Given the segmentation of the home computer market at the time, with lots of "mine is better than yours" type attitudes, I'm not surprised that comments like this (Amstrad shocked at how Sinclair had done things) were banded around.

But, whatever was said back then, and whatever is said now, both Sinclair and Amstrad made computers and shifted millions of those computers. Both repaired or replaced any faulty units within the one year warranty period that was typical for that period of time. And both supplied products that complied with the electrical standards of the time.

And a great deal of those computers still work 30+ years later. Yes, some have had servicing and repair work done. But the same applies to more expensive computers like the Acorn BBC range.

Now, can you say the same for the extremely cheap products that are manufactured down to silly low prices from China?

Having some knowledge of electronics (I did a formal electronic and electrical course at college) I have taken apart some cheap power supply units from China. The quality overall is often poor, the design is often as cheap as is possible, the components are of suspect quality, RF suppression systems are missing, the regulation control circuit is either primitive or poor, the output filtering is barely adequate and not all safety requirements are met. Yet, if you buy quality items (with matching prices), you will often find a quality PSU that is also made in China.

The customer should decide what they want. On a forum like this, that means helping one another out. Not starting flame wars with each other.

People are only here because they value those 1980's and 1990's home computers. Computers that are no longer made. Computers where custom made spare parts may no longer be available. So if people want them to continue working, reasonable care should be taken when repairing or modifying them.

Mark

[Dizrythmia]

I will also miss TotO's ingenuity, but at the end of the day, secrecy can only lead to rumour & innuendo.

Did Bryce do the right thing? It seems that it's a matter of opinion, but it's important to keep in mind that the action was a 'reaction'. He reacted to a situation in the way he thought best at the time. Would we have done any different? I don't think it's fair for us to judge, as we all have the benefit of being detached from the situation. We are outsiders looking in.

What is done is done. I hope TotO comes back, & it would be nice for the fences to be mended, but that's up to the 2 individuals involved.

What would be best for us all is to look at the situation, say 'yep, that happened' & move on.