Author Topic: CPC emulator and original resolution  (Read 7613 times)

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Offline theelf

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CPC emulator and original resolution
« on: 06:11, 13 June 14 »
Hi!! greetings, sorry my english

Im tring to find a CPC emulator that support original resolution, without luck. All emulators are 640x480 minimun

Any advice?

Thanks!



Offline Gryzor

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #1 on: 09:15, 13 June 14 »
Hello and welcome!

Can you explain a bit about what you want to do? It's not very clear from your description. You mean you want to run an emulator on a monitor using 320x200? Perhaps an arcade monitor?

Offline MacDeath

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #2 on: 10:16, 13 June 14 »
Amstrad CPC resolution is not just 320x200.

check this Wiki page :
Video modes - CPCWiki

I guess most emulator support minimum "640x480" type resolution so they can display video mode2.
video mode2 is 640x200 but with a pixel ratio of 1x2 and this means that it can't be displayed if resolution is limited to 320x200 with square pixels.

here are the video modes in full screen display:
Full screen Mode 0: 192x272 pixels with 16 colors (4 bpp)
Full screenMode 1: 384x272 pixels with 4 colors (2 bpp)
Full screenMode 2: 768x272 pixels with 2 colors (1 bpp)

actually in order to be able to handle all amstrad CPC resolutions and pixel ratio, an emulator should be able to handle 768x544 so it can display fullscreen Mode2 with re-creation of the 1x2 pixel ratio.

But it is true some emulator should also enable limited resolutions in order to handle when such video mode is not in use.

Many games could do well with only 256x192 display in 1:1 scale (speccy ports and the likes) so this may enable display on small LCD screens.

Most emulator don't have a proper "magnification manager" where you can force specific and precise stratching at one moment, or get rid of the border... some forced 256x192 or 320x200 display may be great in order to get the display working on mobile phones or custom mounted small screens, provided you don't deal with Mode2 (which is not so often used with most games).



Are you japanese ?
ようこそ
Perhaps you may help us to find some informations about the NEX PC-6000 series.

some models actually seem to have specifications quite close to amstrad CPC specifications and I guess there may be ways to port games between the two systems.
« Last Edit: 10:41, 13 June 14 by MacDeath »

Offline Gryzor

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #3 on: 10:40, 13 June 14 »
For what it's worth WinAPE in half-size is about 380x280 pixels with a quick measurement. This is higher than 320x200 because it also needs to accommodate the borders... Is there an emulator that can disable the border?

Offline MacDeath

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #4 on: 10:44, 13 June 14 »
issue with the border discard is that it may not be placed/centered the same from one program to another...

the display field (non border surface) may be not always centered the same, and many Demo tricks would use the border in odd ways as well.

Some games would get a 320x200 sized screen for the intro picture or even 256x256 "vertical fullscreen" for the menus then 256x192 sized screen for the game itself : see shinobi.

Many games had Amstrad Sized Mode0 intro-screen then ZX spectrum sized Mode1 game
See shadow dancer :

intro screen :

Mode0 160x200 (pixel ratio 2x1)

in-game screen :

ZX Spectrum sized mode0 screen : 128x192 (pixel ratio 2x1) (well, i think it is, looks like indeed, not sure about the vertical 192 anyway)

To limit minimum size to "320x200" still enable for thos speccy sized screens in both Mode1 and Mode0 anyway, would let a small border then.

But the purpose of an emulator is to offer emulation for the maximum softwaresa and emulator designer may not have bothered about such specific use.
I mean, you can get most demos or some of the best games with such a limited viewfield, still most historical games can manage with very limited viewfield.

So there should be option to re-center the viewed screen part on the big full screen and force smaller view-zone at every moments. I Guess it is more complicated to implement than to describe.
:(
« Last Edit: 10:55, 13 June 14 by MacDeath »

Offline arnoldemu

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #5 on: 11:00, 13 June 14 »
Hi!! greetings, sorry my english

Im tring to find a CPC emulator that support original resolution, without luck. All emulators are 640x480 minimun

Any advice?

Thanks!
welcome.

Please tell us more about your thoughts.

Amstrad CPC had it's own monitor. The monitor was 50hz based. Amstrad had a border around it's graphical display. It had a high resolution mode with 640x200 pixels. It was also possible to expand the display to fill the entire monitor area. In high resolution this is: 768x280 pixels.

Most emulators choose 800x600 because this allows this resolution to be reproduced.

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Offline theelf

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #6 on: 12:20, 13 June 14 »
Hi guys!!

wow a lot of reply! ver nice forum and people,  please let me say thanks to all



Well, long history



I have a PC connected to a CRT TV using RGB scart socket, windows XP,  and  soft15khz

I can output any resolution in NTSC or PAL



For example, for this 3 modes

Full screen Mode 0: 192x272 pixels with 16 colors (4 bpp)
Full screenMode 1: 384x272 pixels with 4 colors (2 bpp)
Full screenMode 2: 768x272 pixels with 2 colors (1 bpp)



I can create a mode for every resolution (192,384,272), or if the emulator support stretch, I can create just  768x272  50hz and stretch to max screen size



I just want to play CPC in original resolution,  240p not interlaced


And not less important is a emulator with some kind of command line, because i use a frotend

For example, the layout for Commodore 64




And emulator at 240p






thats all





Sorry my english, I hope you can understand me


Thanks again!
« Last Edit: 12:39, 13 June 14 by theelf »

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #7 on: 12:34, 13 June 14 »
Amazing CPC in Japan? :D

You have to create 288 lines for a 50Hz display to be standard. (and accurate)
Extra lines and columns will be over-scanned.
(emulators are using less by commodity, because not visible)

EDIT:
A nerd idea from me, but... if you create a 320x200 signal mode, is the border goes away?
« Last Edit: 12:51, 13 June 14 by TotO »
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Offline theelf

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #8 on: 15:00, 13 June 14 »
Amazing CPC in Japan? :D


A nerd idea from me, but... if you create a 320x200 signal mode, is the border goes away?

Im spanish, but my wife is japanese.. and well..here i am

nerd idea? no way!!  jeje, well... or maybe im a little nerd too..  i use 320x200 too!



The good side of emulation, is that i can "fix" all this stuff from past, like borders.  In C64 and Amiga is a must, because they have HUGH borders.. almost 30% of screen lost in most games


320x200 no borders








VS 384x247 and borders








Now i have almost all emulators I want  working like a charm, from consoles, to arcade, to computers, like  PC, amiga, C64, AtariST..

But still miss my lovely CPC




I test a lot of emulators, just google "amstrad CPC emulator"  download all, test, and not luck... for sure is my fault and i miss some parameter or something


Thanks a lot!!
« Last Edit: 15:02, 13 June 14 by theelf »

Offline arnoldemu

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #9 on: 15:14, 13 June 14 »
I understand what you want.

You have a PC, running WindowsXP, connected to a CRT monitor. You want to change "fullscreen" resolution for emulator so that you can choose a PAL/NTSC resolution to display the CPC like it would be on it's own native monitor.

You say that the fullscreen options in many CPC emulators do not go below 640x400 or 640x480. The main reason is that DirectX/SDL - the library we use to access display on PC - tells us the resolutions it supports, it uses the OS to tell it.

For C64 and 60hz, 240p is ok. So on PC you need a resolution with a height of 240. Normally the horizontal resolution is 320 AND normally you can set 60hz output frequency for this. On C64 I would expect no border to the left/right sides, but in your photo I saw a border.

CPC is 50Hz it needs 288p. I don't know if there is a PC video mode that does this AND 50hz.
No 60Hz CPC exists.

If you want to use 240p in an emulator at 60hz then the display is not accurate, it will tear.

Ok, please can you give some information?

In Windows 7 you can do this:

Screen Resolution->Advanced Settings. Choose Adaptor tab. Click on "List All Modes".
Lowest I see here is 640x480.

I know that on WindowsXP you may see lower resolutions. Can you tell me what you see here?

Also, which emulators are you using?

So, the other way in an emulator to make something similar is to use 576p and make each odd scanline black. But sometimes this doesn't give enough horizontal resolution and sometimes the pixels do not have the correct aspect (too short or too wide).


More technical:

Normal PAL television is 576i.
All the even lines are sent first.
e.g.
line 0, line 2, line 4 etc

television shows it like this:

line 0
blank
line 2
blank
line 4

then the odd lines are sent:

line 1,line 3,line 5 etc.

television shows it like this:
blank
line 1
blank
line 2
blank
line 3

Each image is effectively 576 lines tall, but because you are sending odd then even you have half the refresh per image. 50hz/2 = 25hz. This makes 25hz.
It's normal PAL television transmission. (Here I exclude the colour conversion from RGB to Brightness,Chroma etc).

NTSC Television uses 60hz, so it has 30fps.

New televisions now use a different display format that I don't discuss here.

CPC doesn't send pictures like this (unless you use the interlace feature in the crtc).
Normally it sends 288p, one whole frame every 50hz. So monitor should show it like this (assuming it works like a television).

line 0
blank
line 1
blank
line 2
blank

and the refresh is 50hz. Normally max 288 lines are displayed.

60hz shows less lines, 240 lines.

Now if in an emulator you didn't simulate scanlines and you output a picture, say 320x240 and you put this into a television, the television shows 60hz image. It adds the scanlines. So the display is like C64.

For CPC we need more lines, we need a resolution like 320x288. Now the television shows 50hz, it adds the scanlines.







« Last Edit: 15:16, 13 June 14 by arnoldemu »
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Offline arnoldemu

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #10 on: 15:33, 13 June 14 »
Go here:

ARNOLD Emulator

EDIT: 2002 not 2012.
**Download the binary from 2002.**

There is a "modes" menu here.

Is there a x240 mode listed here?

Then go Settings->Emulation Settings->FullScreen.

It may draw scanlines for you so you don't get the result you wanted and the refresh may not be 50hz.

I started to add support for video modes in my new wip but it's not working 100% yet.
« Last Edit: 15:47, 13 June 14 by arnoldemu »
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Offline Optimus

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #11 on: 16:20, 13 June 14 »

The good side of emulation, is that i can "fix" all this stuff from past, like borders.  In C64 and Amiga is a must, because they have HUGH borders.. almost 30% of screen lost in most games

320x200 no borders


So, if I understood correctly, you do want to remove those borders, to have a full image where the graphics screen area is stretched to fit.
On the CPC the borders are important part of the emulation. There might be games which extend the graphics over the borders, so discarding the borders will make you miss some graphics. But of course those games might be like 1%. Most games had this blank border, sometimes changing it's color for explosions and immersion stuff.


But I get you want an emulator which doesn't display borders, preferably at 320*200 (or even 640*400 stretched). Maybe some emulators have option to disable borders, don't know which because I never disable them. One oldie that came in my mind is No$CPC. It was quite incompatible with advanced hardware effects (but will certainly run 99% of CPC games if that's what you are looking for) and I remember at least in DOS it was running in 320*200 VGA without the borders. Maybe you can still run it if you are in WindowsXP or less. Or how about Dosbox with proper resolution set, emulating No$CPC (No$CPC is very optimized for old PCs, incompatible but fast, so maybe it runs), that's an alternative solution for you, and DosBox can set up all kinds of standard resolution, I only don't know if your computer will allow 320*200 or will scale up to 640*480. Also, there is a windows version of No$CPC now, I just don't know if it does what you want and if it can set up such low resolution fullscreen (I think my gfx card wouldn't accept it).


Borders and overscan graphics are life for CPC, but if you just hate the borders (my friend calls them black boxes, he hates them in modern PC games with cinematics that are wide just for the atmosphere) and want to mostly run classic CPC games without caring about the overscan graphics in few later titles, then maybe it's possible with some old emulators who do not emulate borders.

Offline theelf

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #12 on: 17:20, 13 June 14 »
Go here:

ARNOLD Emulator

EDIT: 2002 not 2012.
**Download the binary from 2002.**

There is a "modes" menu here.

Is there a x240 mode listed here?

Then go Settings->Emulation Settings->FullScreen.

It may draw scanlines for you so you don't get the result you wanted and the refresh may not be 50hz.

I started to add support for video modes in my new wip but it's not working 100% yet.




Screen Resolution->Advanced Settings. Choose Adaptor tab. Click on "List All Modes".
Lowest I see here is 640x480.

I know that on WindowsXP you may see lower resolutions. Can you tell me what you see here?

Also, which emulators are you using?





Hi!! thanks for the long and good reply


And congratulations for your great work in the emulator!!


Ok, to your questions



I can change windows XP resolution to any resolution, the lowest i have is 256x160, but usually i have my desktop at 384x288

For example, here is my desktop at 384x288. Windows works great, of course.. difficult to work some times..jajaja




Here is a partial list of resolutions I can use in my computer,  all this resolutions are available to  windows, or any software


Quote
Modeline "256x224_60 16.4KHz" 60.2Hz"
Modeline "256x240_60 16.3KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "256x256_60 16.3KHz" 54.0Hz"
Modeline "296x224_60 16.3KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "304x224_60 16.3KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "304x240_60 16.3KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "320x200_60 15.8KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "320x224_60 16.3KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "320x240_60 16.3KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "320x256_58 16.2KHz" 58.4Hz"
Modeline "320x288_50 16.2KHz" 50.0Hz"
Modeline "321x200_60 15.3KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "336x224_60 15.7KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "341x224_60 15.7KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "384x224_60 16.3KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "384x240_60 16.3KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "384x247_60 16.3KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "384x256_58 16.2KHz" 58.4Hz"
Modeline "384x272_50 16.2KHz" 50.0Hz"
Modeline "384x288_52 16.2KHz" 52.4Hz"
Modeline "400x254_53 16.3KHz" 53.2Hz"
Modeline "448x224_60 15.7KHz" 60.1Hz"
Modeline "448x288_60 16.2KHz" 51.5Hz"
Modeline "480x160_60 15.2KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "512x224_60 16.3KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "512x240_60 16.4KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "512x256_52 15.3KHz" 50.0Hz"
Modeline "512x288_52 16.2KHz" 50.0Hz"
Modeline "512x384_60 15.9KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "512x512_56 15.7KHz" 55.5Hz"
Modeline "640x200_60 16.3KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "640x224_60 16.3KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "640x232_60 15.8KHz" 55.0Hz"
Modeline "640x240_60 16.4KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "640x256_58 15.2KHz" 50.0Hz"
Modeline "640x260_58 15.8KHz" 55.0Hz"
Modeline "640x288_60 15.8KHz" 50.0Hz"
Modeline "640x400_60 15.7KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "640x448_60 16.2KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "640x480_60 16.3KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "720x288_60 15.6KHz" 50.0Hz"
Modeline "768x224_60 16.3KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "768x240_60 16.0KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "768x480_52 16.2KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "768x512_55 15.6KHz" 55.4Hz"
Modeline "768x576_52 16.1KHz" 51.0Hz"
Modeline "792x576_49 16.2KHz" 50.0Hz"
Modeline "960x240_60 16.3KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "1024x240_60 15.1KHz" 50.0Hz"
Modeline "1280x224_60 16.3KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "1280x240_60 16.4KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "1280x242_60 16.4KHz" 59.6Hz"
Modeline "1280x254_60 16.2KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "1280x256_60 16.4KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "1280x480_49 15.5KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "1536x240_60 15.1KHz" 60.0Hz"
Modeline "1920x240_60 15.8KHz" 50.0Hz"




And here is Arnold, the 2002 version. I change windows to 640x480, to take the screenshot (sorry the colors, is my desktop theme)


It works ok at fullscreen in any resolution, but like you say, is double internal resolution with scanlines...









Every emulator i have in my computer is working perfect at 240p,  like mame, kega fusion, zsnes/snes9x, winvice, winuae, mednafen, retroarch, magicengine, visualboyadvance, etc etc



Thanks!!











So, if I understood correctly, you do want to remove those borders, to have a full image where the graphics screen area is stretched to fit.
On the CPC the borders are important part of the emulation. There might be games which extend the graphics over the borders, so discarding the borders will make you miss some graphics. But of course those games might be like 1%. Most games had this blank border, sometimes changing it's color for explosions and immersion stuff.


But I get you want an emulator which doesn't display borders, preferably at 320*200 (or even 640*400 stretched). Maybe some emulators have option to disable borders, don't know which because I never disable them. One oldie that came in my mind is No$CPC. It was quite incompatible with advanced hardware effects (but will certainly run 99% of CPC games if that's what you are looking for) and I remember at least in DOS it was running in 320*200 VGA without the borders. Maybe you can still run it if you are in WindowsXP or less. Or how about Dosbox with proper resolution set, emulating No$CPC (No$CPC is very optimized for old PCs, incompatible but fast, so maybe it runs), that's an alternative solution for you, and DosBox can set up all kinds of standard resolution, I only don't know if your computer will allow 320*200 or will scale up to 640*480. Also, there is a windows version of No$CPC now, I just don't know if it does what you want and if it can set up such low resolution fullscreen (I think my gfx card wouldn't accept it).


Borders and overscan graphics are life for CPC, but if you just hate the borders (my friend calls them black boxes, he hates them in modern PC games with cinematics that are wide just for the atmosphere) and want to mostly run classic CPC games without caring about the overscan graphics in few later titles, then maybe it's possible with some old emulators who do not emulate borders.



Hi, thanks for reply,


For me now, the most important is in this order


- Native resolution
- Command line


if this two options are present in emulator, it came other stuff, like borders, but is not priority



I tested No$CPC, but is not good to use in a  frontend, i start everything from a frontend, like this i have for C64





Thanks
« Last Edit: 18:57, 13 June 14 by theelf »

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #13 on: 17:35, 13 June 14 »

I guess you will need to be looking for a DOS based emu.... Try CPCEmu by Marco Vieth
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Offline theelf

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #14 on: 17:47, 13 June 14 »
I guess you will need to be looking for a DOS based emu.... Try CPCEmu by Marco Vieth

Thanks!!  but impossible to use any dos based emu, the PC have windows XP,  and even if i can, NTVDM is not supported by soft15khz

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #15 on: 17:49, 13 June 14 »
Although the emulation core is ancient. A win32 release is also available, but still with no flashy gui. it's probably your best bet.
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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #16 on: 18:18, 13 June 14 »
Although the emulation core is ancient. A win32 release is also available, but still with no flashy gui. it's probably your best bet.

Hi, thank very much for your time

I tested CPCemu a couple of days ago, and even if in config is possible to change resolution, the emulator is fixed at 640x480 in windows version.. or at least,  i did not find any way to change it

I just test the DOS version (i still have a DOS computer here)  and yes, dos version can change resolutions from config file without problem

Offline robcfg

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #17 on: 20:27, 13 June 14 »
Maybe you can use a DOS CPC emulator on WinXP under DosBox. That's what I use for old programs.

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #18 on: 04:09, 14 June 14 »
I just had a thought.. MESS supports the CPC and plus ranges. It certainly allows front ends and will possibly play nice with screen resolutions. It can be a pig to set up and needs quite a lot of resources, but it might tick all your boxes.

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #19 on: 09:27, 14 June 14 »
MESS is probably (one of) the best CPC emulator actually.
About the screens display clocks, that remember me when I had to set my custom arcade machine with MAMECAB, 10 years ago.  ;D


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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #20 on: 22:57, 14 June 14 »
MESS is probably (one of) the best CPC emulator actually.
About the screens display clocks, that remember me when I had to set my custom arcade machine with MAMECAB, 10 years ago.  ;D


I have just tested MESS again on my Mac, and it is the only emulator that can be mapped correctly with vsync so I get no tearing on the Burning Rubber title screen. It certainly allows non standard screen resolutions and does indeed support front ends, I think MESS with the cpc6128p and cpc6128 engines could be the way to go.
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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #21 on: 11:00, 16 June 14 »
I know it's not quite the same solution (not PC based), but whenever I eventually finish it, my CPC FPGA emulator might be just the thing for you... as it has an RGB SCART socket and so the video signal is the same as the original (well actually, it's more conformant with video standards than just using a SCART lead for the Amstrad).

However, it's not ready for public release yet as I'm still working on the disk emulation...

Offline CraigsBar

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #22 on: 11:12, 16 June 14 »
I know it's not quite the same solution (not PC based), but whenever I eventually finish it, my CPC FPGA emulator might be just the thing for you... as it has an RGB SCART socket and so the video signal is the same as the original (well actually, it's more conformant with video standards than just using a SCART lead for the Amstrad).

However, it's not ready for public release yet as I'm still working on the disk emulation...

Sounds interesting.
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Offline arnoldemu

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #23 on: 11:25, 16 June 14 »
I am planning to update my work in progress of Arnold to support display to a real crt.

I have an old PC with a S-video output and a old Sony trinitron television with s-video input.
I should be able to use that to test it.

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Offline theelf

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Re: CPC emulator and original resolution
« Reply #24 on: 03:01, 17 June 14 »
hi guys!!

thanks for all reply, and sorry for my late one

Im in moscow now because bussiness, and i will go to spain next, for one month



then i will have my PC setup ar away  for 30 days  :'(   i will came to the forum, but sadly my PC will be far away... ahhhhh



Ralferoo,  FPGA simulation is great,  and if the output is 240p for sure, will be even better than real hardware




I am planning to update my work in progress of Arnold to support display to a real crt.

I have an old PC with a S-video output and a old Sony trinitron television with s-video input.
I should be able to use that to test it.



Hi!! thank you very much!! very good news :)

Sadly with SVGA output, will be not possible to test, because VGA cards over SVIDEO only output  full NTSC or PAL interlaced signal,  720x480 or 768x576

Is not possible to output real 240p progressive signal


But if you want, i can help you to test all you need, at least, i can do something, not just came here to ask...



Thanks again to everyone