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General Category => Emulators => Topic started by: jcgamestoy on 13:03, 22 December 18

Title: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: jcgamestoy on 13:03, 22 December 18
At last today launch my new emulator.


https://youtu.be/OgZj4dzcBRg


Features



v2.0.Beta-1.r0 22/12/2018


* Multiplatform
  * Windows (Vista+)
  * Linux
  * MacOs (10.9+)
* Multi System
  * ZX Spectrum
    * ZX Spectrum 16k
    * ZX Spectrum 48k (issue2/3/+/+English)
    * ZX Spectrum 128k (eng/spa)
    * ZX Spectrum +2 (eng/spa/fr)
    * ZX Spectrum +2A (4.0eng/4.0spa/4.1eng/4.1spa)
    * ZX Spectrum +3 (4.0eng/4.0spa/4.1eng/4.1spa)
    * ZX Spectrum +2E (eng/spa)
    * ZX Spectrum +3E (eng/spa)
    * Inves Spectrum +
    * ZX-Uno (v4.1/v4.2)
  * Amstrad CPC
    * Amstrad CPC 464 (CRTC-0)
    * Amstrad CPC 664 (CRTC-0)
    * Amstrad CPC 6128 (CRTC-0)
* Multi machine
  * Possibility of opening several machines in parallel
* Virtual Cassette
  * Support TAP,TZX,PZX,CSW,CDT in playback or recording.
* Floppy disks
  * Low level disc (mfm)
  * New implementation of upd765
  * HFE/DSK support
* Monitor
  * Emulation of synchronism (H-sync/V-sync)
  * New Shader
* Joysticks / Gamepad
  * Autodetection
* Devices
  * ZX Spectrum
    * DivMMC
    * Kempston Mouse
    * Magic-AY
    * Turbo Sound
  * Amstrad CPC
    * X-Mem
    * CPC Dandanator
    * AMX Mouse
* Supported file systems in the integrated explorer
  * FAT 16
  * FAT 32
  * CPM
* SD Emulation (SPI)
  * SD (max 2GB)
  * SDHC (max 32GB)
* Development system (ALPHA)
  * Editable hexadecimal view
  * Editable disassembly view
  * Multiple monitors
  * Assembler with LUA pre-processor
  * Command terminal


You can download it from:


https://www.retrovirtualmachine.org



Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: reidrac on 18:10, 22 December 18
Thanks a lot!  Amazing emulator with full Linux support!
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: XeNoMoRPH on 20:04, 22 December 18
This is Awesome !!!  :o :o :o
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: GOB on 22:50, 22 December 18
No cpc+...
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: jcgamestoy on 23:14, 22 December 18
No cpc+...


Not yet, the goal of the Beta-2 will be the cpc plus and all the crtc models (now it only emulates the crtc0)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: mahlemiut on 23:31, 22 December 18
Runs brilliantly well for me on Arch Linux.

Couple of thoughts after a quick test:
Zip support would be nice.  Most of my software is zipped (so I know the images won't change)
Mapping the joystick inputs to keyboard would also be useful (because I'm too lazy to get a gamepad/stick to plug in).
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: tjohnson on 13:36, 23 December 18
Very good been having a play with it today, works well.  Does it support joystick emulation?  Look forward to plus support.  Will it run on Raspberry Pi?
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: jesusdelmas on 18:38, 23 December 18

Not yet, the goal of the Beta-2 will be the cpc plus and all the crtc models (now it only emulates the crtc0)


Will you add an option to emulate the joystick with the keyboard?? And also the posibility of map the buttons?? That would be really good (like capricenforever does)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: krusty_benediction on 19:51, 23 December 18
HelloIt do not work on my machine.Ubuntu 18.10/nviudia drivers 390.87 for Quadro M2200The monitor stays black

Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Gryzor on 20:04, 23 December 18
Ahhh been waiting for this :)


Looks great and it's obvious that so much wok has gone into it!


I second the argument for zip support, but also, I must be going stupid because I can't figure out how to load a disk? I mean I've switched the drive on, have inserted a disk, and then...? I always get "disk missing"...


Thanks for the great Xmas gift! :)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Gryzor on 20:29, 23 December 18
Oh also, how about file associations? :)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: mahlemiut on 23:06, 23 December 18
I second the argument for zip support, but also, I must be going stupid because I can't figure out how to load a disk? I mean I've switched the drive on, have inserted a disk, and then...? I always get "disk missing"...
The drive that you turn on is presumably the external disk drive, so on a 664 or 6128 setup that will be drive B.  Try the internal drive at the bottom right of the screen.
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: jcgamestoy on 00:14, 24 December 18
Ahhh been waiting for this :)


Looks great and it's obvious that so much wok has gone into it!


I second the argument for zip support, but also, I must be going stupid because I can't figure out how to load a disk? I mean I've switched the drive on, have inserted a disk, and then...? I always get "disk missing"...


Thanks for the great Xmas gift! :)


This misunderstanding is happening a lot, I should have labeled the units. Drive A is the bottom one, the one with the power switch is Drive B, see the manual:


https://www.retrovirtualmachine.org/book/usermanual/en/disk.html
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: jcgamestoy on 00:16, 24 December 18
HelloIt do not work on my machine.Ubuntu 18.10/nviudia drivers 390.87 for Quadro M2200The monitor stays black


I'm sorry to hear that, I'm surprised because I program it in ubuntu and also with an nvidia card. What window manager do you use?
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: roudoudou on 00:53, 24 December 18
Successfully tested with Lubuntu 18.04 on my old i5-2500 / Nvidia GTX-650
Great work, very nice interface, easy to use!

Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: VincentGR on 02:23, 24 December 18
Tested on i7 875K with HD7870O.C and Windows 7 Home Premium x64


Also on a laptop with i5 and intel HD gfx with Linux Mint 19.


Works like a charm, thanks.
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: AMSDOS on 08:13, 24 December 18
Just a pity the emulated 464 doesn't support Disk Drive, otherwise a nice emulator.
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Targhan on 13:16, 24 December 18
Tested it a bit, so far I'm quite impressed, especially by the monitor emulation, which I find quite realistic :) .


Some things I'd like to have:
- A cycle counter in the disassemble area, which can be reset at will.
- I couldn't really grasp how the disassemble window work. I can only see a window of #400 wide. Why? I'd prefer see the whole 64kb, and select the rom configuration (#c1, #c2, etc.).
- I didn't check, but can your loaded SNApshots interpret the (unofficial) breakpoints structures (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Format:SNA_snapshot_file_format#Breakpoint_chunk_.28Winape_emulator_specific.29)? Really important for developers.
- I use an external editor to assemble my projects and generate DSK and SNA. Then I use to hack them into Winape by using AutoHotKey to simulate a SNA or DSK insertion. Do you think you can provide some kind of interface to do that? I have no idea how a cross-platform project can handle that... I believe this is impossible :) . (Just thinking about it... I could simply simulate a drag'n'drop...)
- The SNA I've attached to this message does not work, if you want to have a look at it.
- On reloading the software, it would be fine if the windows, or at least the machine, was put back in the state if was (maybe an option about it?).
- The Pause option is great looking, but not very practical. I think a "pause" written somewhere would be more relevant instead of a Fallout-inspired shader on the screen :).


I'm really looking forward the debug feature, since this is what interest me primarily! Awesome work so far!

Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: reidrac on 15:18, 24 December 18
- I use an external editor to assemble my projects and generate DSK and SNA. Then I use to hack them into Winape by using AutoHotKey to simulate a SNA or DSK insertion. Do you think you can provide some kind of interface to do that? I have no idea how a cross-platform project can handle that... I believe this is impossible :) . (Just thinking about it... I could simply simulate a drag'n'drop...)

There's a CLI interface, run the app on a console with "-h".
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Targhan on 16:03, 24 December 18

Quote
There's a CLI interface, run the app on a console with "-h".


Yes I saw that. But I want to automatize. Maybe I can inject external commands to this command line (via AutoHotKey). This is probably what is the simplest. Provided I can load and execute SNA from it (but I guess I can, I didn't check).
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Targhan on 16:22, 24 December 18
Well no, you can't load a SNA or a DSK from command line. This is one more feature request :).
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: reidrac on 16:32, 24 December 18
Well no, you can't load a SNA or a DSK from command line. This is one more feature request :).

I haven't tried it, but that's what it says on the tin.
Code: [Select]
EXAMPLE: RetroVirtualMachine -b=cpc464 -s snap.sna ;boots a cpc464, and load the snapshot file.
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Targhan on 17:03, 24 December 18
Yes, it works this way but it is not exactly what I want, because it will open a new instance of the emulator. I want to always work on the same instance, so a "load sna" via the integrated command line tool is what I need.


(for the dev: if the sna was not found, a segfault is shown).
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Gryzor on 19:34, 24 December 18

This misunderstanding is happening a lot, I should have labeled the units. Drive A is the bottom one, the one with the power switch is Drive B, see the manual:


https://www.retrovirtualmachine.org/book/usermanual/en/disk.html (https://www.retrovirtualmachine.org/book/usermanual/en/disk.html)


Oh there's an online manual! I had only found the pdf cheat sheet :)


Thanks, that makes more sense!!
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: jcgamestoy on 01:48, 26 December 18
Well no, you can't load a SNA or a DSK from command line. This is one more feature request :) .


SNA no, but is a interesting feature, maybe I add a new command soon.


DSK yes  ;D :


Code: [Select]
mount file.dsk a (or b)

Code: [Select]
umount a ;to eject the disk

You can access the files in the dsk from the terminal:


Code: [Select]
cd a@

To return to your hd sys@


By example you can copy files from the hd to the A drive:


Code: [Select]
cp sys@file a@

I have not much time now, but soon I will begin to document all the debugger.


About the "undocumented" breakpoints is easy doable, but I don't understand the 2 bytes of the condition, is this documented?


Regards
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: jcgamestoy on 01:51, 26 December 18

Yes I saw that. But I want to automatize. Maybe I can inject external commands to this command line (via AutoHotKey). This is probably what is the simplest. Provided I can load and execute SNA from it (but I guess I can, I didn't check).


MMM the ALT+O Hotkey allows you to insert a dsk, cdt or load a snapshot, maybe with this you can automatize...
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: roudoudou on 09:27, 26 December 18
About the "undocumented" breakpoints is easy doable, but I don't understand the 2 bytes of the condition, is this documented?

Rasm generate Winape breakpoint with those 2 bytes zeroed. I guess other values are for other kind of breakpoints (I/O, ...)
Then you may skip them? Or reverse Winape breakpoints  :P
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: krusty_benediction on 09:42, 26 December 18

I'm sorry to hear that, I'm surprised because I program it in ubuntu and also with an nvidia card. What window manager do you use?
Using Gnome 3. Here is a screenshot (edit: screenshot removed as not displayed). Whe nthe screen is not black it is probably the very first frame you display.
Here is also the output of your applicaiton :
Retro Virtual Machine v2.0 BETA-1 r0
Linux x64 Build: 6395 - (Sat Dec 22 01:08:19 2018 UTC)

©2018 Juan Carlos González Amestoy.

GLXContext direct
GLXContext direct
App exit successfully
And the output of nvidia-smi while launching your applicaiton :
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NVIDIA-SMI 390.87                 Driver Version: 390.87                    |
|-------------------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| GPU  Name        Persistence-M| Bus-Id        Disp.A | Volatile Uncorr. ECC |
| Fan  Temp  Perf  Pwr:Usage/Cap|         Memory-Usage | GPU-Util  Compute M. |
|===============================+======================+======================|
|   0  Quadro M2200        Off  | 00000000:01:00.0  On |                  N/A |
| N/A   49C    P0    N/A /  N/A |   1343MiB /  4036MiB |     15%      Default |
+-------------------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
                                                                               
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Processes:                                                       GPU Memory |
|  GPU       PID   Type   Process name                             Usage      |
|=============================================================================|
|    0      1483      G   /usr/lib/xorg/Xorg                            57MiB |
|    0      1648      G   /usr/bin/gnome-shell                         107MiB |
|    0      3805      G   /usr/lib/xorg/Xorg                           578MiB |
|    0      4104      G   /usr/bin/gnome-shell                         369MiB |
|    0     10384      G   /usr/lib/firefox/firefox                       1MiB |
|    0     20685      G   ...uest-channel-token=12055094984229229253   122MiB |
|    0     28430      G   RetroVirtualMachine                           99MiB |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
No idea how I can help more
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: mahlemiut on 04:08, 28 December 18
Found another issue, being that the Copy key (is mapped to Right Alt) does not seem to release, unless I close the emulation window, it will remain pressed.
Did confirm that the Right Alt key is working, by mapping Copy to Right Alt in MAME, which works fine.
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Targhan on 06:06, 28 December 18

Quote
MMM the ALT+O Hotkey allows you to insert a dsk, cdt or load a snapshot, maybe with this you can automatize...
Yes indeed. But I believe the "insert snapshot" in your command line tool would be better.


Quote
About the "undocumented" breakpoints is easy doable, but I don't understand the 2 bytes of the condition, is this documented?
Just like Roudoudou said, these two bytes are not documented to my knowledge. Simply put 0 and be done with it :).


I tested your emulator on Windows and Linux (Mint), no problem at all!
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: mr_lou on 12:00, 29 December 18
I installed RVM on my Ubuntu Linux today. Looks really nice (when disabling all those effects that has nothing to do with the CPC).

But I encountered a problem while trying to check out Shadows of Sergoth: Disk is write protected apparently.

Can I do anything about that?

EDIT: mahlemiut opened my eyes for the write protection switch when inserting a disk, but even when I toggle this to unprotected, I'm still met with the write protected error.

EDIT2: Aaah.... I gotta first insert the disk, then switch the toggle.....  :)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Targhan on 16:57, 29 December 18
Quote
Looks really nice (when disabling all those effects that has nothing to do with the CPC).
How did you manage to do that? It's true that the "wow" effect is nice at first, but it goes a bit against what a CPC/Spectrum is about :). I wouldn't mind a "focus mode", but maybe it already exists.
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: mr_lou on 17:08, 29 December 18
How did you manage to do that? It's true that the "wow" effect is nice at first, but it goes a bit against what a CPC/Spectrum is about :) . I wouldn't mind a "focus mode", but maybe it already exists.

Once I've started the CPC emulator, I click the icon that looks like a TV.

I pick the preset "CRT Flat"

Don't touch colour, brightness and contrast.

Turn Mask up 3/4 or maybe even all the way up. This looks a lot like what the CPC monitor has in my opinion.

Turn everything else all the way down.

That's what it should look like in my opinion.
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Targhan on 18:30, 29 December 18
Oh OK I see. I thought you managed to disable all the fancy effects in the emulator interface.
I already had some fun reproducing the real CPC screen. I especially like the "ghost effect" and the way you can curve the screen. Quite realistic!
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Gryzor on 19:34, 29 December 18
Speaking of the 'fancy' stuff; I think I said it before, but I wish all this was available in a text editor or (better) a terminal program like there's on the Macs...
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: tjohnson on 00:56, 30 December 18
Oh OK I see. I thought you managed to disable all the fancy effects in the emulator interface.
I already had some fun reproducing the real CPC screen. I especially like the "ghost effect" and the way you can curve the screen. Quite realistic!



The effect can be made quite realistic I think, I don't like the beam though, never seen that on an Amstrad monitor.
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: TotO on 11:47, 30 December 18
I'm really impressed by the expansions support!  :o
For the first time, an emulator allows to add a device that looks to work like the real one.

Just used the INSTALL process with FW3.15, EXPROM, RAMDRIVE, CP/M...
You know what? I will be able to update my tools w/o using the CPC when I'm not at home now!!!  :-*
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Gryzor on 14:03, 30 December 18
Yeah, that's a nice feature indeed. What is also very nice is that you can save those configs as very easily accessible 'machines'...
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: TotO on 19:01, 30 December 18
The "Paused" and "Warp On" effects are really cool, but... Is it possible a have a real pause "without" to do a screenshot?  ;D

Thank you!
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: jcgamestoy on 01:01, 31 December 18
Found another issue, being that the Copy key (is mapped to Right Alt) does not seem to release, unless I close the emulation window, it will remain pressed.
Did confirm that the Right Alt key is working, by mapping Copy to Right Alt in MAME, which works fine.


Windows? Linux? Mac?
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: jcgamestoy on 01:05, 31 December 18
I'm really impressed by the expansions support!  :o
For the first time, an emulator allows to add a device that looks to work like the real one.

Just used the INSTALL process with FW3.15, EXPROM, RAMDRIVE, CP/M...
You know what? I will be able to update my tools w/o using the CPC when I'm not at home now!!!  :-*


 ;D  I had to study well the datasheet of the windbond flash chip... I have a preliminary implementation of sst in the next version maybe I will put the two models of your x-mem board.

I also want to add the x-mass and the m4... but there is a lot of work to do
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: jcgamestoy on 01:06, 31 December 18
The "Paused" and "Warp On" effects are really cool, but... Is it possible a have a real pause "without" to do a screenshot?  ;D

Thank you!


Yes using the debugger, (ALT+S/CMD+S)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: TotO on 09:04, 31 December 18
Yes using the debugger, (ALT+S/CMD+S)
I was sure to find it somewhere!  :-\

About the X-MEM settings, there is a typo on: "Manague Roms..." (u).
Emulating the X-MASS should not be a big problem I think, as it is mainly a 8bit IDE "virtual drive".
I can see you are emulating a 6ch AY for Spectrum. If you require a PlayCity (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/PlayCity) to do the same for CPC, let me know!  ;)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: GUNHED on 15:29, 31 December 18
Hi there! Now I had some looks at it and this is my impression:
- Very well polished
- Much new features
- Great to see it contains Dandanator and X-MEM
- Installation to X-MEM works

However... sad thing is FutureOS doesn't work. It would be great it this can be changed, especially since the installer from X-MEM does actually work, but the OS itself does not. I really hope that some update could fix this.  :)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: mahlemiut on 22:54, 31 December 18

Windows? Linux? Mac?
Arch Linux
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: norecess on 02:24, 01 January 19
I just spent few time testing the emulator and I have to say, it's very promising, very refreshing.
The console command + ability to tweak the screen is awesome. I admit few options (for the screen) seems to do nothing (or at least, I did not find any usage for it).
phX demo works like a charm, including the ending scrolling involving RVI.
Cross-platform is really nice. I tested OSX version.
Note that on OSX, I use a program called "Magnet" that allow to "dock" (cf. move/resize) panels (it's system-wide, works with all programs). For an unknown reason, it does not work with the emulator.

Not yet, the goal of the Beta-2 will be the cpc plus and all the crtc models (now it only emulates the crtc0)
Yes, I second that. Support for other CPCs + Plus/GX-4000 machines (.cpr files) would be splendid !
For now I will continue to stick with WinAPE for development purposes. Looking forward for future versions!


Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: mr_lou on 09:09, 01 January 19
I haven't read through this whole thread, so I dunno if anyone has suggested this yet:

Add a way to paste text (typically a BASIC listing) into a textarea field, to have the emulator create that program. Useful for copying listings on the forum into the emulator.
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: TotO on 11:45, 01 January 19
Note that on OSX, I use a program called "Magnet" that allow to "dock" (cf. move/resize) panels (it's system-wide, works with all programs). For an unknown reason, it does not work with the emulator.
I'm using the OSX version too, and an issue I have found is the "open file" window looks to not filter the files using keywords (i.e. dsk).
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: vasilisk on 23:31, 03 January 19
Nice emulator approach. One question. In the manual for cpc it says that the COPY button is the Right ALT. It doesn't seems to work for me. Is it my keyboard layout?
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: VincentGR on 00:52, 04 January 19
Nice emulator approach. One question. In the manual for cpc it says that the COPY button is the Right ALT. It doesn't seems to work for me. Is it my keyboard layout?


Same here
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: jcgamestoy on 11:56, 08 January 19
Nice emulator approach. One question. In the manual for cpc it says that the COPY button is the Right ALT. It doesn't seems to work for me. Is it my keyboard layout?


?? On which operating system? Which keyboard map?
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: TotO on 13:39, 08 January 19
Personally I'm using the OSX system and no problem with the copy feature. (except that I will prefert to use LEFT ALT to match with the 6128 layout, or both)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: vasilisk on 18:56, 08 January 19

?? On which operating system? Which keyboard map?


Win7 x64 Ultimate English, English and Greek Keyboard layout.
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: VincentGR on 19:01, 08 January 19
And win7 x64 home premium  :)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: vasilisk on 19:05, 08 January 19
And win7 x64 home premium  :)


Does it work for you or not?
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: VincentGR on 19:14, 08 January 19
No copy key
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: vasilisk on 19:27, 08 January 19
I dont know if the problem is the regional settings or the actual keyboard itself ::)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: jcgamestoy on 21:25, 09 January 19

Win7 x64 Ultimate English, English and Greek Keyboard layout.



You are right, it is already fixed (and many more things) in the new Beta-1 R2 version that is on the website.


See the Change Log


https://www.retrovirtualmachine.org/book/usermanual/en/changelog.html


And download from:


https://www.retrovirtualmachine.org
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: VincentGR on 21:33, 09 January 19
It's on the opposite side but works, thanks!!!
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: TotO on 21:18, 10 January 19
It's on the opposite side but works, thanks!!!
Right = Droite Left = Gauche !  :-*
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: VincentGR on 21:21, 10 January 19
Right = Droite Left = Gauche !  :-*


Heeeeey, I need a RAM expansion and that thingy to use it with my M4 WIFI
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: vasilisk on 22:05, 10 January 19
Yes. COPY is now working :D


@VincentGR (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1053)
He propably assigned the RightALT for Copy because the Left is used for the emulator Shortcuts.


If I remember correct the reset was with CTRL+LeftShift+ESC?

Also, how do we change the default keys for player 1?
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: TotO on 00:48, 11 January 19
If I remember correct the reset was with CTRL+RightShift+ESC?
On CPC, I always do a soft reset using the left hand only... ;)  (same key code for both SHIFT or CTRL keys)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: mahlemiut on 01:34, 11 January 19
Same issue still persists for me in r2, COPY still never released, only now it persists after a Machine Reset.
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: krusty_benediction on 15:21, 12 January 19
HelloIt do not work on my machine.Ubuntu 18.10/nviudia drivers 390.87 for Quadro M2200The monitor stays black
Problem fixed. I guess it is a consequence of an issue with the sound stack of my machine. These days, my OS did not recognize my sound card. Today it recognizes it and the emu works.
I guess a fix would be to allow the emulator to work on a machine without sound card
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: GUNHED on 17:04, 12 January 19
See the Change Log...
Thanks for the update. Sadly FutureOS still does crash on it. Will there be a fix?  :)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: roudoudou on 21:51, 27 January 19
Cool, the R4 fixes the chaseHQ loading problem  8)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: XeNoMoRPH on 10:16, 31 January 19
Retro Virtual Machine 2.0 BETA-1 R5
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Ast on 14:15, 31 January 19
Good! But Amazing Demo from Logon system (|cpm version) part 2 crashes!
Madness Demo from Gozeur/Contrast doesn’t run very well too!



Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: tjohnson on 00:31, 04 February 19
Retro Virtual Machine 2.0 BETA-1 R5
  • Assembler Fixed a bug in the parser that prevented to emit the opcodes "im 1" "im 2" and "im 0".
  • Tape When a new tape is created, it is unprotected against writing by default.
  • Tape Changed the sense of the write-protect switch to be in line with the floppy drive one.
  • Windows The top bar did not hide itself if the task explorer was open especially in Windows 7.
  • +3E Corrected the wrong icon of the +3E.
  • Amstrad CPC Adjusted the tolerance to the H-Sync in the monitor so that the first screen of One Screen Colonies works (without breaking Darkman).
  • ZX-Uno Fixed bug that caused DMA not to work properly in turbo modes
Nice, however I have a question, where is this key mapped, its not in the same place on my keyboard that I can find.
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: TotO on 11:27, 04 February 19
Nice, however I have a question, where is this key mapped, its not in the same place on my keyboard that I can find.
Probably at the opposite side of the same raw, because the "PC/Mac" keyboard is shifted.
It will be great to be able to use this "virtual" keyboard too (some laptop can't access to the functions keys).
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: jcgamestoy on 15:06, 05 February 19
Good! But Amazing Demo from Logon system (|cpm version) part 2 crashes!
Madness Demo from Gozeur/Contrast doesn’t run very well too!



Thank you so much for the notice.


It has taken me a week of madness to make the demo "Madness" work. Anyway all these changes are made in the Beta-2 branch so they will be available in the release that I have planned for the end of the year, along with all the CRTC models.
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: jcgamestoy on 15:09, 05 February 19
Nice, however I have a question, where is this key mapped, its not in the same place on my keyboard that I can find.



It is mapped to two keys, because they are the only keys that change Scancode between the different keyboard layouts.


See the cheatsheet.pdf file attached with the emulator.


But anyway, with the key to the left of the '1' or the key to the left of the 'z'.
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: jcgamestoy on 15:14, 05 February 19
Thanks for the update. Sadly FutureOS still does crash on it. Will there be a fix?  :)


Crash?



I installed it, but I have no idea how to use it.


I installed it directly from the dsk (English version) with option 11 (Xmem-6128)


Once installed with '|os' it seems to work correctly
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: GUNHED on 21:06, 05 February 19
Downloaded new R5, installed with option 11 as you did. After !os there is a crash, I will try tomorrow again. Maybe the selected CPC has problems.  :-X


EDIT: Created an new CPC6128 with X-MEM, still doesn't work. Its Windows 7, 64 bit.


Can somebody please check?

Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: roudoudou on 15:46, 06 February 19
Hi @jcgamestoy (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1202), some suggestions for next releases:
- the "Video adress" field seems to be updated only when using raster display -> display the value every time
- add a counter of lines between two VBL (displayed in green when 312, orange when -5/+5, else red) + corresponding Hz refresh like in ACE emulator
- add a counter of nops between two HBL (displayed green when 64 else red)
- add some shortcuts for trace in debuger (like Winape? F7, F8, ...)
- add a nop counter + reset valueThanks

Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: XeNoMoRPH on 16:43, 06 February 19
Hi Xenomorph, some suggestions for next releases:
- the "Video adress" field seems to be updated only when using raster display -> display the value every time
- add a counter of lines between two VBL (displayed in green when 312, orange when -5/+5, else red) + corresponding Hz refresh like in ACE emulator
- add a counter of nops between two HBL (displayed green when 64 else red)
- add some shortcuts for trace in debuger (like Winape? F7, F8, ...)
- add a nop counter + reset valueThanks
Sorry for confusion , i'm not author  :( , is @jcgamestoy  (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1202)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: roudoudou on 17:26, 06 February 19
sorry, i fix the MSG  ;D
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: roudoudou on 20:12, 09 March 19
found a bug when the emulator auto-save an EDSK
modified DATA tracks does not have the Sector Size info to 2 but 0
below a dump of a DATA floppy where directory+file were modified on the first 2 tracks

Code: [Select]
Side 0 Track 00 contains 9 sector(s) GAP3:4E Fill:E5 SS:0 / ID:C1 (2) - C2 (2) - C3 (2) - C4 (2) - C5 (2) - C6 (2) - C7 (2) - C8 (2) - C9 (2)
Side 0 Track 01 contains 9 sector(s) GAP3:4E Fill:E5 SS:0 / ID:C1 (2) - C2 (2) - C3 (2) - C4 (2) - C5 (2) - C6 (2) - C7 (2) - C8 (2) - C9 (2)
Side 0 Track 02 contains 9 sector(s) GAP3:4E Fill:E5 SS:2 / ID:C1 (2) - C2 (2) - C3 (2) - C4 (2) - C5 (2) - C6 (2) - C7 (2) - C8 (2) - C9 (2)
Side 0 Track 03 contains 9 sector(s) GAP3:4E Fill:E5 SS:2 / ID:C1 (2) - C2 (2) - C3 (2) - C4 (2) - C5 (2) - C6 (2) - C7 (2) - C8 (2) - C9 (2)

Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Wanderer on 19:20, 11 March 19
@jcgamestoy (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1202)

Hi there. Amazing work you've done there. Both with the emulator as well as with the site! I tried it under Windows but if it works the same under Linux and Mac... great!

I wouldn't know where to begin with suggestions, so i'll just say this: it would be useful to have tooltips on the (several) buttons that exist in the UI, for quick reference (got this feeling mainly from the "developer mode"). The interface, compared to other emulators is rather "modern", so it will take some time to get used to it.

If you don't mind me asking, in what language/tool is it written?

EDIT: two things that bug me:

1. It would be great if in a future release, there was an option to swap the ALT ("copy" button) between LEFT and RIGHT ones (use left ALT for "copy" and right for emulator actions).
2. When you have selected a green monitor (Amstrad CPC) and you press the Hammer button, it toggles between developer mode and normal mode. In Normal mode you see the "green" monitor but when developer mode is entered, the monitor becomes "colour". Why?
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: jcgamestoy on 21:56, 11 March 19
found a bug when the emulator auto-save an EDSK
modified DATA tracks does not have the Sector Size info to 2 but 0
below a dump of a DATA floppy where directory+file were modified on the first 2 tracks

Code: [Select]
Side 0 Track 00 contains 9 sector(s) GAP3:4E Fill:E5 SS:0 / ID:C1 (2) - C2 (2) - C3 (2) - C4 (2) - C5 (2) - C6 (2) - C7 (2) - C8 (2) - C9 (2)
Side 0 Track 01 contains 9 sector(s) GAP3:4E Fill:E5 SS:0 / ID:C1 (2) - C2 (2) - C3 (2) - C4 (2) - C5 (2) - C6 (2) - C7 (2) - C8 (2) - C9 (2)
Side 0 Track 02 contains 9 sector(s) GAP3:4E Fill:E5 SS:2 / ID:C1 (2) - C2 (2) - C3 (2) - C4 (2) - C5 (2) - C6 (2) - C7 (2) - C8 (2) - C9 (2)
Side 0 Track 03 contains 9 sector(s) GAP3:4E Fill:E5 SS:2 / ID:C1 (2) - C2 (2) - C3 (2) - C4 (2) - C5 (2) - C6 (2) - C7 (2) - C8 (2) - C9 (2)


You are right. I will fix this.


Anyway the size sector field in the track header is useless in a edsk cause each sector has is own size field.


Thanks  ;)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: jcgamestoy on 22:01, 11 March 19
@jcgamestoy (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1202)

Hi there. Amazing work you've done there. Both with the emulator as well as with the site! I tried it under Windows but if it works the same under Linux and Mac... great!

I wouldn't know where to begin with suggestions, so i'll just say this: it would be useful to have tooltips on the (several) buttons that exist in the UI, for quick reference (got this feeling mainly from the "developer mode"). The interface, compared to other emulators is rather "modern", so it will take some time to get used to it.

If you don't mind me asking, in what language/tool is it written?

EDIT: two things that bug me:

1. It would be great if in a future release, there was an option to swap the ALT ("copy" button) between LEFT and RIGHT ones (use left ALT for "copy" and right for emulator actions).
2. When you have selected a green monitor (Amstrad CPC) and you press the Hammer button, it toggles between developer mode and normal mode. In Normal mode you see the "green" monitor but when developer mode is entered, the monitor becomes "colour". Why?


The emulator part is written in plain C. The UI in Lua (luajit).


1. in future versions there will be a panel to configure the keyboard
2. The explanation is that when you enter the debugger what you see is the view you have selected at the bottom.


By default it is the view of the last complete frame that has been shown in the monitor.


More info:


https://www.patreon.com/posts/debugger-part-i-24672534 (https://www.patreon.com/posts/debugger-part-i-24672534)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Wanderer on 22:51, 11 March 19

The emulator part is written in plain C. The UI in Lua (luajit).


1. in future versions there will be a panel to configure the keyboard
2. The explanation is that when you enter the debugger what you see is the view you have selected at the bottom.


By default it is the view of the last complete frame that has been shown in the monitor.


More info:


https://www.patreon.com/posts/debugger-part-i-24672534 (https://www.patreon.com/posts/debugger-part-i-24672534)

Ah, i see. OK then, thanks for all the info.
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: XeNoMoRPH on 15:41, 06 April 19
Quote
v2.0 BETA-1 R6 06/04/2019
  • DSK Prevent the emulator from hanging when opening ZX Spectrum Driller +3
  • APP Prevent the application from not opening if there is a problem with the options file.
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: WiltshireWizard on 13:46, 20 May 19
Well, I downloaded this an hour ago and have been using it. A doddle to understand and configure and set up. I love the ability to see the 464 cassette deck and load tapes that way.


Great work and thank you!


Will donate soon (in between jobs at the moment but expect to start my new job in a few weeks)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Gryzor on 13:47, 20 May 19
Oh, there's a donation button? Didn't see that!


...and donated :)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: The_Mole_UK on 15:27, 26 May 19

Wow!
Two questions...
- Can I use Parados with it?
- Can it be loaded in Retropie easily?

At last today launch my new emulator.


https://youtu.be/OgZj4dzcBRg (https://youtu.be/OgZj4dzcBRg)


Features



v2.0.Beta-1.r0 22/12/2018


* Multiplatform
  * Windows (Vista+)
  * Linux
  * MacOs (10.9+)
* Multi System
  * ZX Spectrum
    * ZX Spectrum 16k
    * ZX Spectrum 48k (issue2/3/+/+English)
    * ZX Spectrum 128k (eng/spa)
    * ZX Spectrum +2 (eng/spa/fr)
    * ZX Spectrum +2A (4.0eng/4.0spa/4.1eng/4.1spa)
    * ZX Spectrum +3 (4.0eng/4.0spa/4.1eng/4.1spa)
    * ZX Spectrum +2E (eng/spa)
    * ZX Spectrum +3E (eng/spa)
    * Inves Spectrum +
    * ZX-Uno (v4.1/v4.2)
  * Amstrad CPC
    * Amstrad CPC 464 (CRTC-0)
    * Amstrad CPC 664 (CRTC-0)
    * Amstrad CPC 6128 (CRTC-0)
* Multi machine
  * Possibility of opening several machines in parallel
* Virtual Cassette
  * Support TAP,TZX,PZX,CSW,CDT in playback or recording.
* Floppy disks
  * Low level disc (mfm)
  * New implementation of upd765
  * HFE/DSK support
* Monitor
  * Emulation of synchronism (H-sync/V-sync)
  * New Shader
* Joysticks / Gamepad
  * Autodetection
* Devices
  * ZX Spectrum
    * DivMMC
    * Kempston Mouse
    * Magic-AY
    * Turbo Sound
  * Amstrad CPC
    * X-Mem
    * CPC Dandanator
    * AMX Mouse
* Supported file systems in the integrated explorer
  * FAT 16
  * FAT 32
  * CPM
* SD Emulation (SPI)
  * SD (max 2GB)
  * SDHC (max 32GB)
* Development system (ALPHA)
  * Editable hexadecimal view
  * Editable disassembly view
  * Multiple monitors
  * Assembler with LUA pre-processor
  * Command terminal


You can download it from:


https://www.retrovirtualmachine.org (https://www.retrovirtualmachine.org)
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: XeNoMoRPH on 09:49, 07 June 19
https://youtu.be/sCGbZpRFSj0
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Gryzor on 14:12, 07 June 19
Oooh! MSX1 only?


Also: how awesome is that tune...
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: XeNoMoRPH on 14:47, 07 June 19
Oooh! MSX1 only?


Also: how awesome is that tune...
for the moment, he wants to emulate MSX1 perfectly, then he will get more systems
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: TotO on 14:50, 07 June 19
for the moment, he wants to emulate MSX1 perfectly, then he will get more systems
Had been nice to emulate properly the CPC CRTC (at less 0 and 1) first so!  ;D 
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Gryzor on 14:51, 07 June 19
Well, that makes sense!
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: XeNoMoRPH on 22:17, 10 June 19
Had been nice to emulate properly the CPC CRTC (at less 0 and 1) first so!  ;D
Quote
Nuevo video / new video. New implementation of the Amstrad CPC. More accurate, CRTC-1 support... We are working!!! Stay tunned!!!
https://youtu.be/YJoIQjg8FGw
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: XeNoMoRPH on 12:28, 17 June 19
https://twitter.com/retrovm/status/1140543621411889153
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: norecess on 15:34, 17 June 19
Wohoo!! ASIC support is a major win for me. A big thank you from a recently-converted Linux user. :)

In the long term, I hope the emulator will support all possible edge cases that makes current development so challenging (no PRI at line #37, Plus Vectored Interrupt Bug (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Plus_Vectored_Interrupt_Bug (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Plus_Vectored_Interrupt_Bug)) and its workarounds (cf. A13 memory configuration), VCC=R4 equals clipped sprites vertically, GX4000 mode where Bank C1/C3 does not work (but work for Amstrad Plus machines), etc.). And a dedicated visualizer that equals WinAPE in term of features (needs to see ASIC Palette, ASIC internal registers.. see http://www.winape.net/help/asic_registers.html).
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: roudoudou on 18:41, 17 June 19
Asic+Linux  :o


Yeaaaaaaaaaah!
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: Golem13 on 11:51, 18 June 19
So here I am very happy to hear this news :-)
Very good job.

Remains to match and do better than the development tools provided by WinAPE, and we hold the ultimate multiplatform emulator.
Sad for ACE (private joke for Offset hehe) :-D
Title: Re: Retro Virtual Machine v2.0.beta-1.r0 Released for Windows / Linux / MacOs
Post by: norecess on 15:42, 19 June 19
Still about having the most-accurate ASIC emulation: not all ASIC registers are R/W (please refer to the revised Arnold spec: http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Arnold_V_Specs_Revised#New_Register_Map (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Arnold_V_Specs_Revised#New_Register_Map), more details for correct behavior is described in section "Reading of unmapped ASIC register RAM")

For example, WinAPE allows LD A, (#6800) (PRI register) and returns good value while it's actually forbidden on real hardware. Those things can be a nightmare to catch !!