Author Topic: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo  (Read 28231 times)

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Offline MacDeath

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #75 on: 17:25, 08 September 10 »
I agree, Just hope the graphics are "work in progress" state because CPC can really do far better...

Offline TFM

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #76 on: 20:20, 08 September 10 »
Yeah, that';s why I said it'd take lots of work. However, instead of adding gfx to the top to compensate for the movement and creating a higher level, you could just paint the top of the screen sky-blue or something, nothing else? There's no need for it to have elements...

Well, that would work for outside levels, but not for underground levels.
 
I calculated that all and the CPC has 20.000 NOPs every 1/50 second! Means you can transfer 5000 bytes every frame (in theory!!! In reality not that much).
So the CPC can't do a vertical and a horizontal scroll, moving Giana and moving only one enemy at the same time. If I don't do all that at the same time, then the scrolling is not smooth. Sorry, but no coder can speed up the MHz by software  :(
 
It may work with the small 16 KB screen RAM ok, but not with overscan, and overscan is not a point to be discussed  ;)
 
Hi guys. The scroll looks really smooth, good job!  ;D
But plz plz plz, do something about the graphics. They need some retouching (I think the clouds need it more than anything else I see).
regards,
rb

Thank's, scrolling is not that hard to do. And...
 
I agree, Just hope the graphics are "work in progress" state because CPC can really do far better...

Well, personally I really love Gianas GfX. However, maybe you (Rex and MacDeath) can explain whats wrong with the gfx, or how they can be improved.
The best thing would be just to provide an example (better cloud ... f.e.). :) Would be great if you can use the same set of colors, but it's not a prerequisite. :)
 
« Last Edit: 20:32, 08 September 10 by TFM/FS »
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Offline MacDeath

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #77 on: 09:43, 09 September 10 »
Quote
Well, personally I really love Gianas GfX. However, maybe you (Rex and   MacDeath) can explain whats wrong with the gfx, or how they can be   improved.
The best thing would be just to provide an example (better cloud ... f.e.). :) Would be great if you can use the same set of colors, but it's not a prerequisite.
From memory I would say that mixing Green and dark-red is not that good...

I'll try to make some mockups, but if you could supply us with Tiles sets and sprites sheets... or more pictures with no compression (PNG...) and more accurate resolution on PC, it would be fine IMO...

Tiles sets could be sweet so I may know more exactly the limitations or imperatives/specs... to make proper suggestions then.

I'll look at what is available... seems you didn't put any "decent" picture on the net...

The pictures there :
http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/A_Tribute_to_the_Sisters

Great, it looks like a proper CPC screen, but it can't be reworked on a PC... :(
Best would be to give us a few pictures in real actual CPCresolution...
Of course you can double pixels (as wide pixels of Mode0 are wide...lol) as it is easy to re-convert to simple pixels or simply rework as it is...

But please, don't put a 768x540... more like a  384x270 with no scanlines effect...

Also, using a 270 vertical display... I believed that depending the heating of the monitor, some lines could be in overscan zone (out of the actual screen...)...
BDC-IRON told me that the more the monitor heats/warm-up, the more the displayed vertical resolution is... (of course this vary slightly...but...)

wouldn't it be easier or safer to try a slightly inferior vertical resolution ?
Vertical 256pix may be better as you would be more sure that the monitor display all the playfield everytime... And this may save some Video Ram too...


Anyway, this is an ambitious project : a full screen mode Mario clone... ;)

And a lot of work seems to have been done already. :P

Good luck.
 


Also I hope you didn't find my comments too rude, it wasn't intended...
I know a bit how difficult it is to work graphics for a game... but having some suggestions from others can also be halpfull...

Ok, perhaps i found more usable pictures on CPCrulez...





I'll try some suggestions anbd mockups...


Ok a first re-try, but done quite quick...not worked a lot but a few stuff are shown perhaps...
I used CPCcolours set on my Paint.net application, so the exact colours may be different from other stuff... but this remains approximately faithfull...

Ideas are :

As I told you : mixing dark green and dark red (pseudo-brown...as CPC has no real Brown...) is not a good idea, because, well, it's mixing red and Green... which is bad.
Of course the dark red is darker than dark green so may be considered a proper shade, but it is not really...
Just go from White to black, put 2-3 greens between, and dither a bit more...

--earth : use orange and dark Red in order to get a brown effect (perhaps not exactly as I did...) and add a few pixels of yellow to highligh a bit more, and also perhaps a few pixels of red to in order to get a complex and colourfull feeling...

But pleaaaase : never mix the orange and the Pink...!
So many CPC games did this and this simply don't mix well IMO... (but you didn't, actually... it is just a reminder... :) )

--Green tube : more contrast and only use of greens +B&W...Yellow too, perhaps (I did not but some studies may give interesting results)... also the shape and shades, relief and dithering are to be slightly improoved perhaps... (but a metallic effect is quite hard to get...)
Your version for exemple goes from a light blue to greens to dark red to black...
Black and white are great in that they mix with everything given a proper dithering... and it also gives more contrast...

--Some blues are to be removed/changed , maybe other inks too... per exemple what i call the Blue-grey... replace it by a 3rd green... This pseudo grey is not brightly coloured enough for a cartoonish game like this.

If the level is to include some sort of vegetations, it is far better to get another Green... also concerning the green Tubes (mario like...)

--Also the purple from the clouds... please use a blue too... and mostly : swap the light blue and the white... only this is a lot IMO...
--replace the Pink by something else... perhaps... the Amstrad pink don't mix properly with almost all the rest of the palette IMO...


And the "mountains" is perhaps too blurry on the "outside"... need to get it more as in Super Mario 3 or super Mario World (4, on super NES) perhaps...

On thing to keep in mind is that Giana sister is mostly a C64 game... but C64 palette is somewhat... special.
Don't be afraid to go full CPC.
Many dithering can be redone because CPC palette is somewhat superior on some matters...
Appart from true Greys and real brown, CPC is superior in every other stuff of the spectrum... especially if you seek brighly and vivid coloured stuff...

As a matter of fact, we simply almost have twice colours actually (but the brown and Grey...)
And because C64 has 3 greys and 2 browns (orange is light brown, and dark brown) on 16 colours... many colours actually have 3-4 time more variations on CPC.

I didn't put all this, I did this very quickly but maybe you'll get the points while comparing the pics... :-\


Of course those are minor suggestions, the final choices are up to the actual graphist of the project.
And the few we could see seems to already be a good basis.


concerning the way giana jumps...
The ideal way would be to get the same feeling as in Rick Dangerous...(bouncy as  hell...)
check up the rick 128+ version : Fano put a special option enabling to jump on the heads of opponents (without dying again...lol...)...
perhaps asking him how the jumps were managed on rick may be helpfull...
 
« Last Edit: 19:50, 09 September 10 by MacDeath »

Offline TFM

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #78 on: 21:16, 10 September 10 »
Hi MacDeath! First I want to thank you for your huge answer, there is a lot we have to digest now. I'll contact Tolkin who is responsible for our graphics and ask him what he thinks (or maybe he is reading here too...) then let's see what to do...
 
About Red and Green mixing... Well, I didn't do the gfx, but Tolkin told me that he is working with some colors in a way that he can use the shadows on a real CPC monitor.
 
I also have doubts if it makes sense to work with gfx on the PC, imho we all should work with a real CPC monitor when creating gfx, at least in the final stage.
 
Decreasing the vertical resolution will save no screen RAM, due to the scrolling. 32 KB must be sacrificed, even if it is not completely used.
Further the reduction of the resolution would show parts of the screen where the gfx are rebuilt, that would be ugly. So the resolution in Y is fine as it is.
 
I see your point with the clowds... Light Blue and White really need to be swapped!
Now I have to read your post again... :-)
 
About the Jumps: I know they are Pyramide like, like in the origianal Giana Sisters for CPC. Actually I'm working on a more sinus like jump... the released version is still work-in-progress. But the Jump will be more like in Wonderboy (CPC) considering it's shape.
 
Thanks a lot for your detailed comments...
« Last Edit: 21:36, 10 September 10 by TFM/FS »
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Offline MacDeath

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #79 on: 04:12, 11 September 10 »
No problem, i just hope Tolkin won't be upset by my comments. :-[

The base, from what i saw, is clearly a great start, just need a few colour swaps or choices on some parts... and quite few re-pixeling for a few tiles actually.
And the underground part seem all-right... But I only saw a few pictures... (I don't have what is needed to run properly my CPCs on your futurOS...sorry...)

I had the chance to re-work Rick Dangerous...
Chance because I only modified, no real creation, and the basis was, well... Rick Dangerous despite all... was awesome on CPC...

And guess what ? tiles were well done actually on original Rick.
The only problem came from CPC palette (lack of grey while rick used a lot of those...) and poor sprite design because mostly ported quite directly from C64... (3 colours per sprites actually...on C64) and perhaps a poor ink choice sometimes...

But to be fair, from what i did, just a few more work on the game could even allow a far better Amstrad CPC (old) version...
if only it was a multiloading version (Disk then...)

Example : there is only one ink-set for the entire game... while just a few ink changes in between levels could increase all.
And a few Sprite re-do... Soldiers (lvl3 and 4) on rick could have been far better if dark blue was just changed with black... also for the stoneswalls... which i did, also helped by Amstrad PLUS palette (far more comfortable...)

Yet my Goolus sprites (1st level) are not as good as I would have wished... (mode0 can be a total bitch actually...)

And my Color lines skins is clearly not the best... so i'm not the best qualified... :'(



So yeah, a few tips on your work (and mostly Tolkin's work) may be enough... but he was certainly aware of most of those... just couldn't spend enough time...



As you told, working on real CPC screen  may display stuff differently from a PC screen...

But from what I recall from my CPC youth, colourfull graphics in mode0 rarely managed that well the CPC palette...
often lacked a bit of contrast perhaps...

But just look at Spanish games : this is the real reference IMO in the way to handle CPC palette...


For the technical part (vertical resolution per example) you're the boss... I was just wondering and you answered well... so be it.


Hey, in France we have been working on Monkey island this summer...
This pic is a port, in 160x200x16 mode0.
 just view it in wide pixels perhaps (convimgCPC may help...)

this shows how CPC can have sweet Blue and Green palettes...
« Last Edit: 04:25, 11 September 10 by MacDeath »

Offline TFM

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #80 on: 03:30, 12 September 10 »
I like offtopic :-) May you can just tell if Monkey Island will be released on CPC? Sorry, if there was any kind of information, then I missed it. I saw some pics on a french site, but I don't know if it will be a complete game or is it just the idea of maybe making that game...? Let us know :-)
 
Yeah, gfx can provide strange effect's on different screens, especially when using a PC.
 
IMHO when using a PC you can't work with some "shaddows" of the real CPC screen. These shaddows appear when using some special colors. I don't mean a real black pixel, I'm talking about a black pixel on the CPC screen, at a position where no pixel is located in reality. Can't describe it better, but you know what I mean :-) We call it Farbschatten, color shaddow.
 
Also the CPC screen has "hardware antializing", that means the pixels aren't totally sharp. If you want to have a similar effect, try JavaCPC, which can do something like that - looks quite amazing. However you really need a quick PC!
 
If you don't have a ROM board of similar to run Giana under FutureOS, just take an Emulator. WinCPC, WinApe and JavaCPC seem to work relatively good - even if the scrolling is more smooth on a real CPC. I use Caprice quite often, because it's very same (while WinApe likes to shoot disc images), but Caprice can't cope with overscan scrolling.
 
About the palette (Giana), it remains the same throughout all levels. Well, it's not a problem at all to change it. A function to change colors in every level can be added in less than a min :-) If needed.
 
Hope to get some POV about all this from Tolkin here, dropped him a line yesterday, let's see...
 
As you mentioned, only few tiles need a overworking, this should be doable.
 
Now.... back to programming that parable shaped jump - I hate that!!! And now after 6 month of translating for Orion Prime, I have to learn to understand my own code again :-)
« Last Edit: 03:42, 12 September 10 by TFM/FS »
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Offline MacDeath

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #81 on: 03:56, 12 September 10 »
Monkey island is a work in progress (we hope) at CPCrulez...
We can't tell at the moment it the coder will manage it or not, so no promises...

But on a pure Graphical point of view, this is managable, so if code follows, perhaps... ::)


Yeah on good old CPC monitor, pixels are really dots... 
with natural "black" between each pixels...


But I manage this on a PC by using a special display on Paint.net... the pixel grid...
when displaying at 300% this is almost accurate... well, not really actually, but a bit... as each pixel is put into a black grid...
 

Emulator : Well, I use WinApe (shit, it cannot into AZERTY...pfff) and my ROM setting is on Symbos at the moment...
Sorry but symbos is so... cuter... ;D


BTW, I will try to run the full preview of Giana on FuturOS so I would talk with more knowledge...


You now have my Mail, just contact if you want...
At the moment I have a lot of free time. :-\

Quote
About the palette (Giana), it remains the same throughout all levels.   Well, it's not a problem at all to change it. A function to change   colors in every level can be added in less than a min :-) If needed.
Halas... so many production did the same...
Palette change is great in that... well...
C64 cannot really do this, as once you display 16 colours, you display all...
Speccy too... no that its palette is that awesome and numerous...

So yeah a proper CPC game must play on palette changes, because this is really exploitable, yet it needs a bit more work on graphics...
Palette brainstorm can easily take as much time as pixeling...
 
« Last Edit: 04:16, 12 September 10 by MacDeath »

Offline TFM

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #82 on: 04:16, 12 September 10 »
 
Hey! Hope you had a good party, coming home that late ;-)
 
Monkey island is a work in progress (we hope) at CPCrulez...
We can't tell at the moment it the coder will manage it or not, so no promises...

But on a pure Graphical point of view, this is managable, so if code follows, perhaps... ::)

Well, that sounds promising and realistic! I have more thrust in realistic guys than in people who say "Wooohoooo! We can do everything!!!" I know what I'm talking about (heee, who kicked my ass??? May I derserve it ...)

Yeah on good old CPC monitor, pixels are really dots... 
with natural "black" between each pixels...

... and it's not a bug, it's a feature. And some advanced gfx freaks can work with it  ;D

But I manage this on a PC by using a special display on Paint.net... the pixel grid...
when displaying at 300% this is almost accurate... well, not really actually, but a bit... as each pixel is put into a black grid...


WoW!!!  :o :o :o

Emulator : Well, I use WinApe (shit, it cannot into AZERTY...pfff) and my ROM setting is on Symbos at the moment...
Sorry but symbos is so... cuter... ;D

The SOS doesn't bother... FutureOS is compatible to everything, since it doesn't change BASIC. And you will have surely some space at ROM position 10-13, just shift that other stuff to other ROM selects  ;)  About "cuter" - I never wanted to create someting like this... I got what I wanted: A dark, efficient, effective, quick and reliable OS. Never wanted anything else.


BTW, I will try to run the full preview of Giana on FutureOS, so I would talk with more knowledge...

Have fun!!!
 
« Last Edit: 04:17, 12 September 10 by TFM/FS »
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Offline MacDeath

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #83 on: 04:21, 12 September 10 »
what about YOUR party ?

Well I'm just normally back from Bars with beers... not a big deal and quite mundane on saturday night... er... sunday ? :P


Good night.


Quote
And some advanced gfx freaks can work with it
Supersly is such a talentuous bastard !!! :(

I wish i could Hate him... but....
 
« Last Edit: 04:24, 12 September 10 by MacDeath »

Offline TFM

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #84 on: 04:23, 12 September 10 »
what about YOUR party ?

Well I'm just normally back from Bars with beers... not a big deal and quite mundane on saturday night... er... sunday ? :P


Good night.

Well, my friend, here in New Orleans its 20:22 (exactly now ;) , so I'm just waking up slowly, then I code a bit, will leave the house at 23:23 and try to omit the CIA. Hinding out to the Vieux carre, also know as French Quarter ;-)
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Offline MacDeath

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #85 on: 04:25, 12 September 10 »
Not flooded anymore ? :laugh:

Of course not since Obama...

But you had a hard time during Bush...lol...
Euh.. w...wait...

Oh shi... you were flooded by Black matter recently (petroleum) thx to our british friends... from BP.


Bush = Water
Obama = Petrol..
the world is upside down...
 
But let's not talk politics...
Have a good party/night/free time...

for me, I go back to Morpheus' arms and hope I'll get "shoenes traumen..."


Quote
"Wooohoooo! We can do everything!!!"
Well, until the coder tells you "NOT!"...
I don't code, but I know perhaps enough to know a bit of what may eventually be realistic... er... not always, but discussion with coders may bring solutions sometimes.
 
« Last Edit: 04:38, 12 September 10 by MacDeath »

Offline TFM

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #86 on: 22:50, 29 September 10 »
Hehe!
 
Well, as coder you know that some things aren't possible! But these guys making that beautiful gfx then resist in some features. So you just _have_ to code it. And finally it works out.
 
 
btw: level 2...
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5TTf68VDPk
 
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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #87 on: 19:32, 28 October 10 »
Official WIP Update 3, dated 2010-09-17
 
Get it at: http://www.futureos.de (downloads)
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Offline Xifos

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #88 on: 19:10, 29 October 10 »
Hi,

I 've just tried this new WIP and i have suggestions !  :)
The new jump is really better.
But i miss the "inertia" of the C64 version ! (don't kill me)
And i find this is too fast (don't kill me nooo)
You may find i am a fool but i tried lowering the fps to 25 (with winape), and it's really smooth with a more appropriate speed (well for me)!

But no misunderstanding, i am impressed by your work  :)

Offline TFM

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #89 on: 21:30, 29 October 10 »
Hi  :)  first, thank's a lot for your feedback! I really appreciate and it will help  :)
 
I 've just tried this new WIP and i have suggestions !  :)
The new jump is really better.
But i miss the "inertia" of the C64 version ! (don't kill me)

Don't kill me if I ask a stupid question. But what do you mean with "inertia"? Would be great if you can explain it in detail. I don't have a clue what it is, sorry for asking.
 
And i find this is too fast (don't kill me nooo)
You may find i am a fool but i tried lowering the fps to 25 (with winape), and it's really smooth with a more appropriate speed (well for me)!
But no misunderstanding, i am impressed by your work  :)

Yes, well, the scrolling. Since I have to use hardware scrolling it can't be slower. I must scroll 2 Mode 0 Pixel (one byte) every frame. This is a hardware limitation. If it would scroll slower, then it wouldn't be smooth.
However, the CPC Plus version will be able to use pixel scroll  ;)  Uups, the secret is out now, so ok, there will be a Plus version using a lot of Plus features... but after the release of the version of the CPC old generation.
 
Thanks for your comments and compliments  :)
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Offline redbox

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #90 on: 22:22, 29 October 10 »
Don't kill me if I ask a stupid question. But what do you mean with "inertia"? Would be great if you can explain it in detail. I don't have a clue what it is, sorry for asking.

In German I think you would say schwung, which is momentum and what I think he means.

Inertia is a body's resistance to change from one state to another.  So if you are running and building up momentum, then when you stop running you don't just stop you slide a little.

The game is looking very promising and I'm eager to see the Plus version  :)

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #91 on: 23:24, 29 October 10 »
Well, in case, just in case I understand you right (and I've some doubts...) then you have been talking about the physics of the Giana sprite. Things like:
 
- If you start to move the sprite, it needs some time to speed up
 
- If you stop the sprite / get hand off the joystick, then it takes a bit of time to slow down and completely arrest the sprite
 
Well, these things are planned, but hard to implement, due to the way the game engine is constructed. However it's already on my to do list.
 
In case I got you wrong please tell me  :)
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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #92 on: 23:47, 29 October 10 »
Yeah right, that's what i meant by inertia, sorry but my english is at low level  :)
(to express things clearly)

Offline redbox

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #93 on: 02:14, 30 October 10 »
Don't worry, you were right to use inertia to describe it!  I was just trying to explain it to TFM.
 
This is also how I described the movement of the character in Cheril of the Bosque by Mojon Twins.
 
Vous anglais est bon que mon francais  ;)
 
(or is it Votre?)

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #94 on: 04:29, 30 October 10 »
Inertia = Massentr├Ągheit, sure. But I wasn't sure if it was connected with the player sprite, the enemies, the scrolling or what ever. So thanks for the clarification.
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Offline Xifos

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #95 on: 11:25, 30 October 10 »
Don't worry, you were right to use inertia to describe it!  I was just trying to explain it to TFM.
 
This is also how I described the movement of the character in Cheril of the Bosque by Mojon Twins.
 
Vous anglais est bon que mon francais  ;)
 
(or is it Votre?)

It's "votre" but i'm sure i don't always use the right word too !  :)

Back to topic, i think the problem is that even mode 0 pixel move can't be the same as mode 1 pixel move.
So on the C64 Giana's sprite can move by mode 1 pixel...
And the scrolling cannot be mode 1 pixel.
The only way on cpc old to keep same ratio is to be at 25 fps (mode 0 pixel move at 25 = mode 1 pixel move at 50 )
For sprites at least...
In the current wip i think that's already how sprites ennemies "move" : one mode 0 pixel every two frames
For the scrolling (CPC old) what about a supercauldron or prehistorik2 scrolling like ?
To recenter the camera when Giana sprite is on the left or right corner...
And Giana's sprite moving at mode 0 pixel..

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #96 on: 00:13, 31 October 10 »
In the current wip i think that's already how sprites ennemies "move" : one mode 0 pixel every two frames
For the scrolling (CPC old) what about a supercauldron or prehistorik2 scrolling like ?
To recenter the camera when Giana sprite is on the left or right corner...
And Giana's sprite moving at mode 0 pixel..

You're close :-))) The enemies move one byte (two Mode 0 pixel) every second frame (25 fps if you want). But Giana moves every frame (50 a second). This is needed, because if Giana would move every second frame then the scrolling would dither like hell. And that would be really ugly (as you can see in a variety of games with 25 fps scrolling).
So I can't slow down neither Giana not the scrolling - if I want to keep it smooth.
 
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Offline Xyphoe

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #97 on: 07:55, 05 January 11 »
Well seeing as I posted about Wolfenstein and just now about Bubble Bobble remake progress ... may as well check in here too! How's things coming along with this project? :)

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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #98 on: 23:02, 05 January 11 »
Slowly... real live is sooo complex ;-)
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Re: A Tribute to the Sister WIP-Demo
« Reply #99 on: 01:13, 06 January 11 »
Slowly... real live is sooo complex ;-)

Good to hear! As long as it's not abandoned, there's lots of great CPC projects at the moment so we can be patient :)

What do you mean by "real live"?

Oh and hows the jump physics/gravity coming along? That's the only thing in the vids I saw that I would make a constructive criticism about not feeling right  :)