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General Category => Games => Topic started by: Joseman on 22:27, 12 June 17

Title: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Joseman on 22:27, 12 June 17
Directly from his twitter account!!

(http://i66.tinypic.com/10xbvq9.jpg)


(http://i66.tinypic.com/jv3xfr.jpg)

"testing the new 50fps pixel by pixel and overscan  routine"
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: roudoudou on 23:58, 12 June 17



a new game? Great news!

But this is neither overscan nor fullscreen, obviously  ;)
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Joseman on 00:20, 13 June 17


a new game? Great news!

But this is neither overscan nor fullscreen, obviously  ;)

why not?
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Zoe Robinson on 00:26, 13 June 17
Looks full screen to me...
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: keith56 on 00:34, 13 June 17
why not?

I suppose the "not full screen" comment is because the top and bottom inch of the screen seem to be solid fill - but that doesn't mean those areas are scrolled pixel data too.

Has anyone seen this in motion? the stills look great, but I want to see how it moves!!
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: roudoudou on 09:20, 13 June 17
why not?


Half of the screen is score board (won't scroll) or pure border (won't scroll too). Anyway the border is not the "screen"


The game area looks like a 16K screen (192*170) so there is no need to set overscan bit too (overscan means 32K video page)


On the other hand, i'm sure there is a nice split-screen between score board and game area.  ;)
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: DanyPPC on 09:22, 13 June 17
Great !
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: fano on 10:22, 13 June 17
impatient to see this in motion !
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: arnoldemu on 11:21, 13 June 17
I am interested in these words:

"50fps pixel by pixel"

It would be interesting to see how fast it will go with full game (AI and player control).

I'm guessing that to make it 50fps pixel by pixel it'll be moving right only, reg 3 for some smoothing and then more than 1 screen for the pixel offset.

Looks nice. They need to change the graphics though...

"it's a me, roland".  :laugh:


Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Joseman on 15:32, 13 June 17

Half of the screen is score board (won't scroll) or pure border (won't scroll too). Anyway the border is not the "screen"


The game area looks like a 16K screen (192*170) so there is no need to set overscan bit too (overscan means 32K video page)


On the other hand, i'm sure there is a nice split-screen between score board and game area.  ;)

I'm just traslating what they said on his tweeter account.

I prefer not to speculate on the subject until some of the members of Batman Group tell us the details.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Maniac on 16:00, 13 June 17
I'd quite like to follow them on Twitter! What is their Twitter name please?
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: ervin on 16:27, 13 June 17
I'd quite like to follow them on Twitter! What is their Twitter name please?

https://twitter.com/BATMAN_GROUP
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: beb on 17:01, 13 June 17
Great !
Look like 16kb screen, with the same  "Super Edge Grinder" scroller technics.

Nice to see a new game...
Sad to see another "rip off"... 
(another game adaptation, another graphic adaptation, another music adaptation...)
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Joseman on 18:21, 13 June 17

Sad to see another "rip off"... 

If you say it for the mario bros graphics, personally i've been waiting for a NES/Snes Mario Bros Game adaptation on CPC for decades!!!

I'll pay whatever they want for a Mario bros game with this graphics/engine!!
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: beb on 18:47, 13 June 17
I understand. I don't want to blame someone making a good game.
I prefer seeing original material. Because lot of people are making "mockup" or adaptation today.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Rhino on 19:29, 13 June 17
Hi!

I did not expect any of this to come to light at such an early stage of development, but our community manager is a very active and restless guy :) So, this is the story of those screenshots:

A colleague from another group asked me a couple of weeks ago for a horizontal scrolling routine, so I started to think about possibilities of doing it pixel by pixel at 50 fps for 64kb of RAM and a large screen size.

A couple of days ago there was a meeting of Batman Group members in my house and I showed what I am working these days.
My idea is to dedicate a few more days to complete a small engine for games with horizontal scroll at multiple speeds in both directions, and back with Pinball Dreams ASAP.

The game for which I am doing this will be not a BG game, nor a Mario conversion, that is just a test skin.

Regards!
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Gryzor on 19:40, 13 June 17
Even more promising then! I kinda hate Mario 😁

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: VincentGR on 19:51, 13 June 17
I hate Mario, time to love him.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Cholo on 20:32, 13 June 17

Supha Roland Wurlde!

Wait a second, what came first .. the amstrad crocodile mascot or marios Yoshi? Someone inform Sir Alan that he should sue Nintendont for ripping off the amstrad crocodile  :P
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: roudoudou on 20:35, 13 June 17
Hi!

I did not expect any of this to come to light at such an early stage of development, but our community manager is a very active and restless guy :) So, this is the story of those screenshots:

A colleague from another group asked me a couple of weeks ago for a horizontal scrolling routine, so I started to think about possibilities of doing it pixel by pixel at 50 fps for 64kb of RAM and a large screen size.

A couple of days ago there was a meeting of Batman Group members in my house and I showed what I am working these days.
My idea is to dedicate a few more days to complete a small engine for games with horizontal scroll at multiple speeds in both directions, and back with Pinball Dreams ASAP.

The game for which I am doing this will be not a BG game, nor a Mario conversion, that is just a test skin.

Regards!


Thanks for the explanations  8)
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: andycadley on 01:37, 14 June 17

A couple of days ago there was a meeting of Batman Group members in my house and I showed what I am working these days.
My idea is to dedicate a few more days to complete a small engine for games with horizontal scroll at multiple speeds in both directions, and back with Pinball Dreams ASAP.

The game for which I am doing this will be not a BG game, nor a Mario conversion, that is just a test skin.
Sounds cool. And the Mario map just looks so good as a test case, it's one of the reasons I used it when testing my Plus scrolling engine. It looks very pretty for the classic hardware though. :-)
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: ivarf on 08:09, 14 June 17
Sounds cool. And the Mario map just looks so good as a test case, it's one of the reasons I used it when testing my Plus scrolling engine. It looks very pretty for the classic hardware though. :-)

The CPC already has the same strong colours as Segas consoles Surprisingly it can do graphics of the same quality as the Sega master system too. Thumbsup!
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: dlfrsilver on 13:03, 15 June 17
Hi!

I did not expect any of this to come to light at such an early stage of development, but our community manager is a very active and restless guy :) So, this is the story of those screenshots:

A colleague from another group asked me a couple of weeks ago for a horizontal scrolling routine, so I started to think about possibilities of doing it pixel by pixel at 50 fps for 64kb of RAM and a large screen size.

A couple of days ago there was a meeting of Batman Group members in my house and I showed what I am working these days.
My idea is to dedicate a few more days to complete a small engine for games with horizontal scroll at multiple speeds in both directions, and back with Pinball Dreams ASAP.

The game for which I am doing this will be not a BG game, nor a Mario conversion, that is just a test skin.

Regards!


Hello Rhino :)


That's really awesome, so the classic CPC is able to do full screen/overscan in 50 fps pixel per pixel scroll ? doh !
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Rhino on 02:51, 17 June 17

Hello Rhino :)


That's really awesome, so the classic CPC is able to do full screen/overscan in 50 fps pixel per pixel scroll ? doh !

We have still seen very little of what the CPC can do  :)
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: dlfrsilver on 10:27, 17 June 17
We have still seen very little of what the CPC can do  :)


the c64 folks are going to be VERY angry about that  :laugh:  !


Beware ! XD
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: ivarf on 11:59, 17 June 17


the c64 folks are going to be VERY angry about that  :laugh:  !


Beware ! XD


There have been several C64 fanboys on Youtube claiming that no CPC game updates at 50Hz
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: arnoldemu on 15:03, 17 June 17

There have been several C64 fanboys on Youtube claiming that no CPC game updates at 50Hz
That is incorrect as we know.

Mission Genocide is 50Hz. 50hz display, 50hz logic/game update. :)

Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Shaun M. Neary on 15:29, 17 June 17

the c64 folks are going to be VERY angry about that  :laugh:  !


Beware ! XD

If your games took 30 minutes to load from an external tape deck and had a palette that was as bland as butter, you'd be angry too  :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: EgoTrip on 20:21, 17 June 17
We have still seen very little of what the CPC can do  :)

If only all this was 30 years ago.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: tjohnson on 21:27, 17 June 17

Wow after 30 years the rivalry still continues.....

Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: AxelStone on 21:50, 17 June 17
If only all this was 30 years ago.


You are right man, CPC was the garbage colletor for Spectrum: every game was designed for Spectrum and badly ported to CPC only adding colours. CPC has demostrated that has more features than simply add color.

Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: dlfrsilver on 22:57, 17 June 17
Wow after 30 years the rivalry still continues.....


At this point, this is not really rivalry :)


The CPC has really been underused. What happens, is that the CPC was almost a 16 bits machine.


It doesn't have the sid chip, but it can do very good musics. We have tons of examples :)
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: tjohnson on 00:35, 18 June 17


At this point, this is not really rivalry :)


The CPC has really been underused. What happens, is that the CPC was almost a 16 bits machine.


It doesn't have the sid chip, but it can do very good musics. We have tons of examples :)


What make it almost a 16 bit machine?
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: AxelStone on 11:59, 18 June 17

What make it almost a 16 bit machine?


Perhaps not 16bit, but CPC is much better than seen during comercial life. Look for example what can do:
[youtube]https://youtu.be/HwN9PrsbVMg?t=57[/youtube] (https://youtu.be/HwN9PrsbVMg?t=57)


And compare with the commercial game:
[youtube]https://youtu.be/-GS-rTr1j08?t=152[/youtube] (https://youtu.be/-GS-rTr1j08?t=152)


A speccy port!!! There is a lot of homebrew examples where you can see that CPC was really a very advanced machine with a powerful VDP, but this VDP never was used, CPC was programed as a simple Z80 machine (like Speccy).

Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: tjohnson on 14:25, 18 June 17
That demo looks impressive but there is no actual gameplay, shame that the demo didn't turn into a real game.  The actual game looks pretty horrible with speccy graphics.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Skunkfish on 17:14, 18 June 17
I think the the real game looks pretty good. Yes, it's Mode 1, but far nicer than the monochromatic Speccy version.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: AxelStone on 22:45, 18 June 17
That demo looks impressive but there is no actual gameplay, shame that the demo didn't turn into a real game.  The actual game looks pretty horrible with speccy graphics.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk


What about Edge Grinder?
[youtube]https://youtu.be/DygTSMHn9rU?t=360[/youtube] (https://youtu.be/DygTSMHn9rU?t=360)


Full color shoter with smoth scroll and full of action. CPC is very capable machine when used correctly.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: andycadley on 00:37, 19 June 17

That demo looks impressive but there is no actual gameplay, shame that the demo didn't turn into a real game.  The actual game looks pretty horrible with speccy graphics.
It looks good as a representation of the upper level (although lacks much of the foreground objects) but I'm not convinced it would have translated into the remainder of the game which is a much more traditional platforming effort. It does show that the CPC was capable of some impressive tricks in the right circumstances.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: AxelStone on 09:23, 19 June 17
It looks good as a representation of the upper level (although lacks much of the foreground objects) but I'm not convinced it would have translated into the remainder of the game which is a much more traditional platforming effort. It does show that the CPC was capable of some impressive tricks in the right circumstances.


Yes between a demo and a real game there is a big difference, you need to add game logic, enemies IAs, etc and most probably it would be simpler than video. However the purpose of the video is simply to show that CPC has a capable VDP, it's not simply "Speccy with more colours".

Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: EgoTrip on 13:23, 19 June 17

Yes between a demo and a real game there is a big difference, you need to add game logic, enemies IAs, etc and most probably it would be simpler than video. However the purpose of the video is simply to show that CPC has a capable VDP, it's not simply "Speccy with more colours".

You mean "Speccy with less colours" because most Speccy ports were 4 colours, or even monochrome.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: dlfrsilver on 15:11, 19 June 17

What make it almost a 16 bit machine?


his graphics ability + its custom VDP.


Well programmed, the CPC is best out of the 3 main 8 bits machines.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: roudoudou on 15:37, 19 June 17
Well programmed, the CPC is best out of the 3 main 8 bits machines.


In my heart it's the best but honnestly it lacks a textmode to get a super-speed refresh
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Joseman on 16:50, 19 June 17
You mean "Speccy with less colours" because most Speccy ports were 4 colours, or even monochrome.

That's not correct and not fair, MOST speccy games are 2 colors to avoid the color-clash disaster, and here the CPC loses 2 colors (in mode 1), and where the games use all the colors on speccy they look HORRIBLE and burning-eye-color-clash monstrosity, this way the CPC 4 color version is way better just because this horrible effect.

No mention to mode 1 / 16 colors rasters or simply the mode 0 / 16 colors of the amstrad that simply destroy the not-vdp speccy character display.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: AxelStone on 17:13, 19 June 17
You mean "Speccy with less colours" because most Speccy ports were 4 colours, or even monochrome.


You mean this
(https://programbytes48k.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/rtype.gif)


against this
(https://programbytes48k.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/r-type-electric-dreams.png)


 >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Joseman on 19:21, 19 June 17

You mean this [...]


But that's no CPC fault, the ceiling and the floor can be rasterized on CPC as the ship nor the bullets touch that parts (extra colors), the rest of the graphics can be recolored and use dithering technics to simulate more colors, and the hiper-mega-black-box that the engine on the spectrum do to avoid the color clash.. come on, that's no serious  :laugh:

and again, without comment on mode 0 graphics (r-type 128k remake)
 
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: AxelStone on 20:50, 19 June 17
But that's no CPC fault, the ceiling and the floor can be rasterized on CPC as the ship nor the bullets touch that parts (extra colors), the rest of the graphics can be recolored and use dithering technics to simulate more colors, and the hiper-mega-black-box that the engine on the spectrum do to avoid the color clash.. come on, that's no serious  :laugh:

and again, without comment on mode 0 graphics (r-type 128k remake)


We are talking preciselly about that, CPC was underused during commercial life, most games were simple Spectrum ports and sometimes even using less colours.

Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: tjohnson on 21:57, 19 June 17

But that's no CPC fault, the ceiling and the floor can be rasterized on CPC as the ship nor the bullets touch that parts (extra colors), the rest of the graphics can be recolored and use dithering technics to simulate more colors, and the hiper-mega-black-box that the engine on the spectrum do to avoid the color clash.. come on, that's no serious  :laugh:

and again, without comment on mode 0 graphics (r-type 128k remake)


Interesting, how does rasterizing allow the use of more colours?
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Joseman on 22:02, 19 June 17

Interesting, how does rasterizing allow the use of more colours?

changing the ink with precise timing, look unpredictaball with mode 1 and 16 colors:

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=fiches&fiche=14338&slot=1&part=14338_mode1plus.png)

I have been playing this game for 2 days and even the feeling is not being playing on a CPC but an EGA PC!!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: andycadley on 22:37, 19 June 17


You mean this
(https://programbytes48k.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/rtype.gif)


against this
(https://programbytes48k.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/r-type-electric-dreams.png)


 >:( >:( >:(
R-Type is unusual in it's use of colour on the Spectrum though. The vast majority of titles, particularly those that scroll, are monochrome.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: tjohnson on 22:43, 19 June 17
changing the ink with precise timing, look unpredictaball with mode 1 and 16 colors:

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=fiches&fiche=14338&slot=1&part=14338_mode1plus.png)

I have been playing this game for 2 days and even the feeling is not being playing on a CPC but an EGA PC!! 
Does that mean that the ink is changed after a specific scanline of part section of the screen is drawn?   In that way it is possible to have more colours visible than would otherwise be possible?

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: ivarf on 22:59, 19 June 17

Perhaps not 16bit, but CPC is much better than seen during comercial life. Look for example what can do:
https://youtu.be/HwN9PrsbVMg?t=57 (https://youtu.be/HwN9PrsbVMg?t=57)


And compare with the commercial game:
https://youtu.be/-GS-rTr1j08?t=152 (https://youtu.be/-GS-rTr1j08?t=152)


A speccy port!!! There is a lot of homebrew examples where you can see that CPC was really a very advanced machine with a powerful VDP, but this VDP never was used, CPC was programed as a simple Z80 machine (like Speccy).

Not the best example as the commercial release use colour quite well. There are a lot of Spectrum ports that do a very much worse.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: ivarf on 23:02, 19 June 17

You mean this
(https://programbytes48k.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/rtype.gif)


against this
(https://programbytes48k.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/r-type-electric-dreams.png)


 >:( >:( >:(

You can't show these two without showing the fan rewrite of the original Speccy port. And it is still a Spectrum port on our Amstrad

[youtube]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8y67EaQWpy0[/youtube]
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Joseman on 23:03, 19 June 17
Does that mean that the ink is changed after a specific scanline of part section of the screen is drawn?   In that way it is possible to have more colours visible than would otherwise be possible?

Yes, but it has disadvantages, it can be see on unpredictaball clearly, the ball is changing his color when it goes across the raster  :laugh:

It's a pseudo induced "color clash" caused for the rasters...

this means that in some games, the use of rasters has to be limited to the sections on the screen where the main sprites don't cross between rasters or we will have a "color clash" party!!
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: AxelStone on 23:50, 19 June 17
You can't show these two without showing the fan rewrite of the original Speccy port. And it is still a Spectrum port on our Amstrad

[youtube]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8y67EaQWpy0[/youtube]


CPC is a great machine! Unfortunately C64 users think that its machine was better, but simply C64 didn't have Speccy ports and had specially designed software.

Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: andycadley on 00:10, 20 June 17


CPC is a great machine! Unfortunately C64 users think that its machine was better, but simply C64 didn't have Speccy ports and had specially designed software.
Honestly, all three are great machines in their own ways and each has certain limitations where it tends to fall down. I think that R-Type 128 shows off how much the CPC benefits from having extra RAM available, the breathing room it gives a developer over the 64K config can really make all the difference. You have to wonder whether the machine might have had more success if it had started off with the extra RAM in it, so that developers weren't tied to that base limitation quite so much.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: AxelStone on 09:30, 20 June 17
Honestly, all three are great machines in their own ways and each has certain limitations where it tends to fall down. I think that R-Type 128 shows off how much the CPC benefits from having extra RAM available, the breathing room it gives a developer over the 64K config can really make all the difference. You have to wonder whether the machine might have had more success if it had started off with the extra RAM in it, so that developers weren't tied to that base limitation quite so much.


Compared to CPC, Speccy and C64 were lucky since they had specially designed software. I mean, CPC couldn't show it's real capabilities, the other 2 could.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: dlfrsilver on 12:12, 21 June 17
Does that mean that the ink is changed after a specific scanline of part section of the screen is drawn?   In that way it is possible to have more colours visible than would otherwise be possible?

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk


the Amstrad is able to do things that even the Amiga can't do (it's a planar machine). the Amiga with the copper can apply colors on specific area of a screen, and that's it.




[size=78%]The CPC being a chunky machine, some games display a lot more colors that possible basically, and everywhere on the screen[/size]


Strider 2 is one of them. I tried to make the maps of this game, and it's not possible to do due to the use of rasters.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: AxelStone on 12:21, 21 June 17
the Amstrad is able to do things that even the Amiga can't do (it's a planar machine). the Amiga with the copper can apply colors on specific area of a screen, and that's it.


Very interesting this, could you explain it a bit more?
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: roudoudou on 14:07, 21 June 17

Very interesting this, could you explain it a bit more?


With an Amstrad (like every 8bits machine?) every bits of a pixel are on a single byte


With an Atari, an Amiga, every bits of a pixel are dispatched on many bytes


This is very usefull to fill/erase faster a group of colors and you do not have to manage sprite mask BUT


BUT when you want to make a "linear" effect like a rotozoom with all colors, it's pain in the ass
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Cholo on 19:49, 21 June 17

In my heart it's the best but honnestly it lacks a textmode to get a super-speed refresh


Always wonder why the "all importent for business" mode 2 was used so little on the amstrad. The 80 columns being compatible-ish with IBM, terminal systems & the rest of the "serious business" machines i always wondered why so little business software was made for it. I mean i know the c64 had hardware dongles to give them 80 column modes as well so they knew it was importent. The Amstrad having it natively it oddly never really "took off".
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: BSC on 10:53, 22 June 17

the Amstrad is able to do things that even the Amiga can't do (it's a planar machine). the Amiga with the copper can apply colors on specific area of a screen, and that's it.




I am sorry to disagree strongly, but this sounds like fellow OAS, who for years insisted that neither the C64 nor the Amiga had better musical capabilities just for the sheer fact that the CPC could basically play the same tunes. He completely failed to understand (and maybe even recognize) the different qualities of sound and how sound can make a song - ehm - sound different, richer, more appealing to our "hearing system". Melody =! sound in particular.


Stating that "the Amiga .. can apply colors .. and that's it" makes you sound like a CPC fan boy (at least to me) who prefers his alternative facts to ... yeah, to what, actually? Sure, the CPC was most likely under rated in it's so-called commercial era and we are seeing things, we wouldn't have imagined even 10 years ago, BUT - come on! The Amiga is technically on a completely different level. And - I had my try with assembly and copper programming on the Amiga long ago - the copper can do more than just switch colors. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_Chip_Set#Copper


And with statements like this you foment the out-of-time platform wars.

Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 16:45, 22 June 17
The Copper, and the Amiga chipset, are extremely clever things.


The Copper is really just a simple fixed function hardware running a copperlist (simple program) that performs chipset register updating. It has access to all the chipset registers (on different chips). The obvious example is changing the colour registers (which IIRC it can do every 8 or 16 pixels), but it can also update sprite registers (see games with repeating background sprites like Risky Woods), and others.


So you would use the CPU to write a copperlist every frame, and that's how you got copperbar effects that move, and so on.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Rhino on 16:14, 18 July 17
I have added some elements to simulate a Mario style game with pixel precise scroll. I think it can be done at 50 fps (test attached, use cursor to move).

In this test some things are missing, like sound and scoreboard, but I think there's time for that, and it is possible to save speed by optimizing things like compiling tiles. Alternatively, it is also possible to save CPU by using byte precision instead of pixel precision for the scroll (it could use the stack to draw sprites and tiles then, and save memory from sprites).

After all the buffers and screen areas, there are about 24kb free in the first 64kb of ram, so simple games for 64kb are also feasible with this "engine".
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Hwikaa on 18:53, 18 July 17
This is madness! So smooth!  :o
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: ervin on 03:06, 19 July 17
Very, very impressive!
The inertia on the scroll is particularly cool.
 8)
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Morri on 03:29, 19 July 17
Wow, amazing. Smooth, great collision detection and fast scroll. I hope the experts are able to take advantage of this new engine and produce some sweet games.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Carnivius on 08:26, 19 July 17
I have added some elements to simulate a Mario style game with pixel precise scroll. I think it can be done at 50 fps (test attached, use cursor to move).

In this test some things are missing, like sound and scoreboard, but I think there's time for that, and it is possible to save speed by optimizing things like compiling tiles. Alternatively, it is also possible to save CPU by using byte precision instead of pixel precision for the scroll (it could use the stack to draw sprites and tiles then, and save memory from sprites).

After all the buffers and screen areas, there are about 24kb free in the first 64kb of ram, so simple games for 64kb are also feasible with this "engine".


This is crazy smooth and in overscan width too!   I have a project that could make good use of this if you ever wanted to make a game with graphics I've done.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: ervin on 11:43, 19 July 17

This is crazy smooth and in overscan width too!   I have a project that could make good use of this if you ever wanted to make a game with graphics I've done.

Rhino's code + Carnivius' graphics = match made in heaven!
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 12:05, 19 July 17
Decent inertia could make for a good Uridium style game, if the engine can change directions.


And yes, definitely do that!
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Neil79 on 14:43, 19 July 17
 :o :o :o


http://www.indieretronews.com/2017/07/mario-demo-test-batman-group-shows-us.html
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 14:52, 19 July 17
http://retromaniacmagazine.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/la-impresionante-rutina-de-scroll.html?m=1


Includes a nice video for those of us who haven't been able to run it on the real thing or emulator. Impressive.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Joseman on 15:04, 19 July 17
I was going to post the news too!!!


 :o :o :o :o :o :o
https://twitter.com/octopusjig/status/887612127036526593
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Kitty on 15:10, 19 July 17
Fantastic Progress, really impressed  ;)

Quote from: Joseman
I was going to post the news too!!!

Thanks for sharing the News Joseman! Great stuff and Sourced direct to this thread and the Twitter post :)
http://www.vintageisthenewold.com/batman-group-shows-off-horizontal-scrolling-with-a-new-mario-demo-on-the-amstrad-cpc/
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Neil79 on 15:11, 19 July 17
Featured for lunch! :)




http://www.indieretronews.com/2017/07/mario-demo-test-batman-group-shows-us.html
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Neil79 on 15:19, 19 July 17
I was going to post the news too!!!


 :o :o :o :o :o :o
https://twitter.com/octopusjig/status/887612127036526593 (https://twitter.com/octopusjig/status/887612127036526593)


Good man, you were already mentioned earlier as other sites just found out  8)
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: XeNoMoRPH on 15:49, 19 July 17
Never seen this  :o
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Puresox on 18:25, 19 July 17
nice
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Rhino on 20:57, 19 July 17
Thanks for the feedback!

@ervin (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=82)
Currently the inertia is where you can see that the scroll has pixel precision, since the "standar" speed of the player is more than one pixel.

@Morri (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=95)
That is the idea, publish the engine when finished so other developers can use it.

@Carnivius (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=50)
Thanks for the offer! I hope we can do something together, but I have to finish Pinball Dreams first.
I would also like to do an extended version of the engine for 128kb with multidirectional scroll, so that it can cover more game types. It can also work at 25 or 17 fps, etc... to use more and biggest sprites at once on screen. I remember great Amiga games that do not run at 50fps, Gods for example, that could have a similar performance on CPC.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Carnivius on 21:37, 19 July 17
Thanks for the offer! I hope we can do something together, but I have to finish Pinball Dreams first.
I would also like to do an extended version of the engine for 128kb with multidirectional scroll, so that it can cover more game types. It can also work at 25 or 17 fps, etc... to use more and biggest sprites at once on screen. I remember great Amiga games that do not run at 50fps, Gods for example, that could have a similar performance on CPC.

Of course I'd like to see Pinball Dreams finished as soon as possible.  It's looking great.
There's no rush on my projects.  Just that seeing this has me rethinking the frame rates, sprite movement speeds and scrolling of all the CPC-projects I've been designing  like when I've been making the PC 'mock up' prototype things of the games I've been purposely running them at a slower frame rate like 17 or so and scrolling in lots of 2 mode 0 pixels.. and most of them are simple left and right two way scrolling things anyways like the RoboCop fan-sequel. This demo has me thinking that amazingly they don't actually need to run that chunky at all.  I stil don't get how you've done it when so many CPC games haven't.  Where was this in the 80s?  :P
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Puresox on 21:48, 19 July 17
It would be great to have the talented programmers Names listed with a paypal link somewhere prominent on the Wiki. So people can show there appreciation at ease.
Some great work goes on that pushes the CPC scene forward. Especially with the information being shared. Even if it is just the odd quid from time to time.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Rhino on 23:06, 19 July 17
Of course I'd like to see Pinball Dreams finished as soon as possible.  It's looking great.
There's no rush on my projects.  Just that seeing this has me rethinking the frame rates, sprite movement speeds and scrolling of all the CPC-projects I've been designing  like when I've been making the PC 'mock up' prototype things of the games I've been purposely running them at a slower frame rate like 17 or so and scrolling in lots of 2 mode 0 pixels.. and most of them are simple left and right two way scrolling things anyways like the RoboCop fan-sequel. This demo has me thinking that amazingly they don't actually need to run that chunky at all.  I stil don't get how you've done it when so many CPC games haven't.  Where was this in the 80s?  :P

Thanks!
There is a very direct relation between fps and the amount and size of sprites required by a game,  so I think you've done well in estimating that speed if your games require a good amount/size of sprites. On the other hand, that is not a bad speed, almost all the Bitmap Brother's games on Amiga run at that speed or less.

But Amstrad can also make good scrolling games at 50 fps, and I mean games with a certain complexity. In part, it's something I try to show with Pinball Dreams. Which has had a great reception, but you can still see people from other platforms claim that CPC may be good for vertical pixel scroll but not for horizontal while it's a matter where the CPC still has a lot to say.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Morri on 23:09, 19 July 17
Thanks for the feedback!

@Morri (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=95)
That is the idea, publish the engine when finished so other developers can use it.
Well, if you ever decide to make it accessible via BASIC, then I'm in!  ;D
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Xyphoe on 23:48, 19 July 17
Awesome!!!!!

Can't wait for this.

Done a quick YouTube video to help promote and spread the word for you... :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n0dSB9-NEY
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Joseman on 14:39, 20 July 17
Awesome!!!!!

Can't wait for this.

Done a quick YouTube video to help promote and spread the word for you... :)


Keep an eye and take care on Nintendo and his IP's, i think that they don't like too much that mario enter on foreign machines  :laugh:
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Puresox on 18:23, 20 July 17
I expect if Nintendo got it involved it would be more beneficial than not tbh. A load of publicity , and then A quick ok we bow to your requests and alter name/graphics. They can hardly say jack if you're not making money from it? Surely?
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 18:49, 20 July 17
Nintendo crack down hard on this type of thing unfortunately.


Maybe an 8-bit computer mostly popular in Europe would stay under the radar for a while.


Probably better to keep the core game concepts but with different graphics and maps from the start.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Carnivius on 19:04, 20 July 17
oh is it an actual Mario game?  I thought it was just the Mario stuff just for testing so you get a good idea of what it can do. 
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Rhino on 20:42, 20 July 17
Thanks for the video!

I'm not worried about Nintendo since Mario's theme has only been used for evaluation purposes of an engine demo. As commented in an earlier message, as far as I know, the first game that will use this engine is not planned to be a Mario conversion.

But, once the engine be published, any developer can use it to do Super Mario Bros or anything else. By the way, I think GinBlog82 is going ahead with its project of doing SMB on CPC, and I do not want to shadow his project.

http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/games/super-mario-bros-on-cpc-464-still-alive!/
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Joseman on 21:00, 20 July 17
But, once the engine be published, any developer can use it to do Super Mario Bros or anything else. By the way, I think GinBlog82 is going ahead with its project of doing SMB on CPC, and I do not want to shadow his project.

http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/games/super-mario-bros-on-cpc-464-still-alive!/ (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/games/super-mario-bros-on-cpc-464-still-alive!/)

Maybe he can use this engine with his SMB project? Can anyone contact and talk to him about this?

I don't know at what stage his project is, but if @GinBlog82 (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=590) use this engine and other person(s) do the graphics (we have very good graphic designers around here) the SMB project can be finished!

What can we do to encourage people to help in this project to be finished??

Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Xifos on 18:59, 21 July 17
Sorry for the technical question but...
I suppose you're using crtc register 3 for byte horizontal hardware scrolling, but how do you manage mode 0 pixel scrolling ?
With preshifted buffers, but not using double buffering ?

Great demo anyway !
 :)
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Rhino on 21:09, 22 July 17
Sorry for the technical question but...
I suppose you're using crtc register 3 for byte horizontal hardware scrolling, but how do you manage mode 0 pixel scrolling ?
With preshifted buffers, but not using double buffering ?

Great demo anyway !
 :)

Well, if nobody saw the trick without debugging the code, it worked fine :)

BTW, about Reg 3 scrolling, I noticed in my tests that it is more accurate on CRTC type 3 (exact half-character), in type 4 I have not tried but probably it is the same. In type 0 and 2 is not exactly half-character, but it is very close. And type 1 is where it most differs.
Can anyone else confirm this?
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: pacomix on 02:01, 26 July 17
Amazing!!! You rle each byte-column for drawing and use color for collisions (black?) or you actually use rle and tile-based (drawing only the affected column of the tile) for the scroll?


Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Rhino on 16:15, 26 July 17
Amazing!!! You rle each byte-column for drawing and use color for collisions (black?) or you actually use rle and tile-based (drawing only the affected column of the tile) for the scroll?


Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk

The tile map is compressed by columns and uses a decompression buffer.
This buffer is used to clear sprites and detect tile-level collisions. Between sprites it uses pixel precise bounding box for collisions.
When it scrolls enough, it draw a column of tiles, but do not draw all the tiles in the column, but only those that have changed with respect to the residual tiles that appear in that column.
Another optimization is that if a sprite has empty background tiles, it draw the sprite without mask. This optimization is optional and only efficient if there is a predominance of empty tiles in the background, as is often in SMB
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: jesusdelmas on 05:24, 29 July 17
The tile map is compressed by columns and uses a decompression buffer.
This buffer is used to clear sprites and detect tile-level collisions. Between sprites it uses pixel precise bounding box for collisions.
When it scrolls enough, it draw a column of tiles, but do not draw all the tiles in the column, but only those that have changed with respect to the residual tiles that appear in that column.
Another optimization is that if a sprite has empty background tiles, it draw the sprite without mask. This optimization is optional and only efficient if there is a predominance of empty tiles in the background, as is often in SMB


Amazing job Rhino,the engine looks fantastic, bot i supose that it will work only in a cpc6128 and not in a cpc464, or it will work on both?
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Rhino on 02:43, 30 July 17

Amazing job Rhino,the engine looks fantastic, bot i supose that it will work only in a cpc6128 and not in a cpc464, or it will work on both?

Thanks! It works on 64kb, but there are only 24kb free for the game due to the double buffer of the large screen, so 128kb would be more appropriate for large games. It is also possible to use dynamic loading to have more memory.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: GinBlog82 on 12:21, 04 August 17



Maybe he can use this engine with his SMB project? Can anyone contact and talk to him about this?


I don't know at what stage his project is, but if @GinBlog82 (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=590) use this engine and other person(s) do the graphics (we have very good graphic designers around here) the SMB project can be finished!


What can we do to encourage people to help in this project to be finished??


Hi, sorry for the delay. I was so full with my actual job (I work for AWS as SDE2, so pretty busy) that I didn't touch my project at all (sorry). Searching on youtube, I recently discovered this demo and I was wondering how much the cpcwiki community was blaming me for my poor attempt in cloning SMB so far :-) However I'm still satisfied with my old result, because I believe that they are two different kind of projects, with two different kind of results.


From my point of view, I wanted to reproduce the old SMB graphics without modifying the original tileset (same pixel resolution). In the Rhino's demo, instead, I see that the graphics has been readapted for mode 0 and overscan, that is more useful as skin to show his engine's features but not exactly what I was trying to do in the past. Using mode 0 instead of mode 1 is better if you want to get smoother scrolling with less resolution and more colors, it's something that I already evaluated in the past but I don't think that I'll go in that direction now. About the demo, the useful part of the screen is about 384x160, so I'd say 24x10 tiles on mode 0, mine was 16x12 on mode 1 (more compatibile with the famous World 1-1 map). Playing with Mario all around, the physics looks pretty different than the original title (I guess because it's an early demo). If you move forward or backward it goes immediately without any kind of acceleration or friction, which is a simplification too. I'm not saying that adding the old mario physics is something complicated, but it adds complexity to the code and it may introduce concerns, in particular if you are dealing with CRTC registers and you may end up with sync issues, so you must be careful.


Anyway, the Rhino's demo is amazing and it has some interesting ideas from what I can learn to improve my demo and achieve a smoother scrolling by myself. I'm not going to throw away my work to use other people engines (or disasm them), even if I don't have time to develop, so don't ask me to do it because the answer will be always a big "NO" :-) I think that the scrolling is something that you can always improve since you are alive, throwing the old technique away and try new solutions, so I'm not concerned because there is no limit on something that you may learn and implement. Maybe a good idea is to use a larger screen to cover borders and play more with the CRTC registers. Thank you very much for the suggestions and for the inspiration that you gave to me so far.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: Rhino on 13:52, 06 August 17



Hi, sorry for the delay. I was so full with my actual job (I work for AWS as SDE2, so pretty busy) that I didn't touch my project at all (sorry). Searching on youtube, I recently discovered this demo and I was wondering how much the cpcwiki community was blaming me for my poor attempt in cloning SMB so far :-) However I'm still satisfied with my old result, because I believe that they are two different kind of projects, with two different kind of results.


From my point of view, I wanted to reproduce the old SMB graphics without modifying the original tileset (same pixel resolution). In the Rhino's demo, instead, I see that the graphics has been readapted for mode 0 and overscan, that is more useful as skin to show his engine's features but not exactly what I was trying to do in the past. Using mode 0 instead of mode 1 is better if you want to get smoother scrolling with less resolution and more colors, it's something that I already evaluated in the past but I don't think that I'll go in that direction now. About the demo, the useful part of the screen is about 384x160, so I'd say 24x10 tiles on mode 0, mine was 16x12 on mode 1 (more compatibile with the famous World 1-1 map). Playing with Mario all around, the physics looks pretty different than the original title (I guess because it's an early demo). If you move forward or backward it goes immediately without any kind of acceleration or friction, which is a simplification too. I'm not saying that adding the old mario physics is something complicated, but it adds complexity to the code and it may introduce concerns, in particular if you are dealing with CRTC registers and you may end up with sync issues, so you must be careful.


Anyway, the Rhino's demo is amazing and it has some interesting ideas from what I can learn to improve my demo and achieve a smoother scrolling by myself. I'm not going to throw away my work to use other people engines (or disasm them), even if I don't have time to develop, so don't ask me to do it because the answer will be always a big "NO" :-) I think that the scrolling is something that you can always improve since you are alive, throwing the old technique away and try new solutions, so I'm not concerned because there is no limit on something that you may learn and implement. Maybe a good idea is to use a larger screen to cover borders and play more with the CRTC registers. Thank you very much for the suggestions and for the inspiration that you gave to me so far.

Hi GinBlog82,

I hope you can continue with SMB soon. You're doing a great job!

You are right about there are great differences between SMB physics and the one in this demo, since it is not an attempt of faithful port the original. However, this example includes a bit of inertia, acceleration and deceleration in Mario's movement to show the 50fps pixel-precise scroll feature.

Regards!
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: GinBlog82 on 20:53, 07 August 17

Thanks. Yesterday I found some time to continue the project. I implemented the scrolling with CRTC R3 (4 pixels on mode 1) and solved some sync issues, the result is better than I expected. The only problem is with the borders, that are flickering during the scrolling because I'm not covering them. I'm not so sure if I want to sacrifice 2 rows of tiles to go full 24x10 and cover that borders. I eliminated the code that preserved the background from sprite pixels because it was slow, instead of that I'm drawing with a xor that I want to replace with an actual mask as soon as possible. Maybe the next step could be to have finer scrolling using two buffers, but before that I want to achieve a robust result to make a new video on youtube.
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: tjohnson on 00:18, 21 August 17

Thanks. Yesterday I found some time to continue the project. I implemented the scrolling with CRTC R3 (4 pixels on mode 1) and solved some sync issues, the result is better than I expected. The only problem is with the borders, that are flickering during the scrolling because I'm not covering them. I'm not so sure if I want to sacrifice 2 rows of tiles to go full 24x10 and cover that borders. I eliminated the code that preserved the background from sprite pixels because it was slow, instead of that I'm drawing with a xor that I want to replace with an actual mask as soon as possible. Maybe the next step could be to have finer scrolling using two buffers, but before that I want to achieve a robust result to make a new video on youtube.


Hey GinBlog82 any chance of a youtube video, would be good to see your current progress on this!
Title: Re: Astonishing and enigmatic pics from BatmanGroup!!
Post by: jesusdelmas on 16:53, 14 September 17
Thanks! It works on 64kb, but there are only 24kb free for the game due to the double buffer of the large screen, so 128kb would be more appropriate for large games. It is also possible to use dynamic loading to have more memory.


Awesome! you are right, with only 24 kb free it woould be a short game, but a 464 versiĆ³n is always welcome :). Amacing job anyway Rhino, cant wait for a game with the final version of the engine,