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Coding a CPC game: motivation and feedback.

Started by roudoudou, 07:07, 18 July 17

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MiguelSky

About feedback in forum threads, I think the number of replies is not an accurate indicator of feedback as the number of likes (or downloads) is. I think not constructive comments (great, amazing, etc) are pleasant but don't help as feedback, because a good bunch of them are thrown even before playing the game.


Also, I think CPC games are little known out of our circle and, as TomEtJerry comments, showing games in meetings put them in sight to more people than us. It is needed to find a good means of showing CPC games in internet as CPC related sites (octoate, cpcwiki, amstrad.es...) are not enough... Perhaps retrofanzines are?


EDIT: Haha, Dubliner thinks as me :D

arnoldemu

Don't forget to count the forum likes ;)

I give a lot of positive feedback using likes and lots of others do.

The best way to know if somebody is using it is when they report bugs, or perhaps they get stuck on a difficult puzzle and need help ;)

My games. My Games
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Shining

Quote from: andycadley on 00:24, 20 July 17
Remakes of old games get a kind of bonus from nostalgia that entirely new titles don't. The people who have always had that nagging feeling R-Type could've been better, or that Double Dragon needed a third version or who still just like to grumble about all those promises of Street Fighter 2. There is as much conversation there about the "old days" as about any new developments. And ironically they're the least likely projects to get finished - both because replicating an existing title is harder and because living up to the expectations in people's heads is sometimes impossible.


When I read across the forum here, I think, that you're right. All those threads about "what if when this game was in mode x or if this had hardwarescroll or that wasn't a speccy-port" and the threads about (unfinished) remakes are the ones that are hot. In the past, I thought that the community is more interested in new original games but perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps I should consider this...
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AMSDOS

Quote from: Nich on 22:49, 19 July 17
Your story is reassuring to hear! A couple of years ago, I tried to convert another Spectrum game to the CPC (having already converted two games years before with a reasonable degree of success), but it was taking me far longer than I expected, and I had difficulty understanding a lot of the code, so I gave up. I felt it just wasn't worth the effort when only a few dozen people at most would download and play it. :(


I've been still trying to nail that ZBLAST SD, but I don't think it's going to happen.
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Dubliner

I do actually belive that the real problem is that people spend more time talking than playing nowdays. It's easier talking about previously known material than spending some time researching new games in order to talk.

But i can tell you from my own experience as part of the organization team of a nice retroevent in south Spain: people really love a nice new homebrew game. This year, for example, there were, of course, lots people playing to one Street Fighter 2 demo, and talking a lot of good things about it. But there were also a lot of people spending some time playing Relentless with @ronaldo's CPC and praising the game, or asking about SymbOS.

I trully believe more people would like homebrew games if they actually play them, but in this modern world of no time, doing everything quick and spending half your freetime collecting likes in social networks, playing was left out of the equation.

As any other hobby, the "journey" should be the reward. We should keep doing the things we like because we like doing it and as long as we like it. If you also get positive feedback, that's really great and makes you feel really good, but usually that positive feedback is a small portion of the time you give in a project.

Joseman

#30
I Spend HOURS and DAYS with the new games!!

4mhz games (days), relevo games (days), Esp Soft (days), Shining's Defence (Days)... Cargo Soft games, Imperial Mahjong (days, with my girlfriend), Orion Prime (weeks, and months!!), Bubble Bobble remake by cngsoft (Months), Top Top by Rantan Games, i'll kill if they do the game with 100 levels (for playing with my girlfriend) and a lot more!!

I read all the post of chibi akuma, but CERO feedback (sorry), on summer i don't have time to play!!

I use the M4 all the days, expansion memory all the days...

Feedback to the developers nearly 0!! Sorry for that!!

But you all are totally WRONG if you think that the new games that you're developing aren't played. My friends with CPC even my girlfriend and I (HOURS of playing)

People download and play, feedback not so much, but I think that this happens on all the aspects of life!

andycadley


Certainly people will play them, even if they don't comment back for whatever reason. Chances are at least someone out there will get some enjoyment out of it but they won't always let you know it.


One of the most interesting bits of feedback I ever got was someone asking me questions about an Mym music player for the cpc, because the original website was no longer available. It actually took me ages to remember that I had not only once had a website a one point, but that I had ever written a music player for the CPC at all.... You never quite know what people will find useful or fun and the long tail on some things can be very long indeed.


Above all, still have fun! :-)

arnoldemu

If you program for the C64 and even if you try to sell it it will get cracked and put up on csdb almost the next day ;)

That is what happened to me for Stranded on the C64. I was selling it through Cronosoft. The game got cracked almost immediately and then the crackers took the credit.

I never coded on C64 again.
My games. My Games
My website with coding examples: Unofficial Amstrad WWW Resource

Dubliner

Quote from: Joseman on 12:58, 20 July 17
Top Top by Rantan Games, i'll kill if they do the game with 100 levels (for playing with my girlfriend)

They actually said today that they are still working on the final release, so keep your fingers crossed.

Quote from: arnoldemu on 13:54, 20 July 17
If you program for the C64 and even if you try to sell it it will get cracked and put up on csdb almost the next day ;)

That is what happened to me for Stranded on the C64. I was selling it through Cronosoft. The game got cracked almost immediately and then the crackers took the credit.

I never coded on C64 again.


That's exactly what happend to my friend, who did the C64 port of Abu Simbel Profanation. Minutes after publishing it in his website was cracked and posted on csdb without crediting the original autor. Rubbish.

Joseman

Quote from: Dubliner on 16:41, 20 July 17
They actually said today that they are still working on the final release, so keep your fingers crossed.

Hi

Where they did said that? twitter account?


Rhino

Quote from: mr_lou on 10:58, 19 July 17
Well... I think most devs can relate to your frustration. We start out being very enthusiastic about our game project, imagining everyone will enjoy it just as much as we do ourselves. But that is rarely what happens.
So first thing to keep in mind: It doesn't only happen to you.
Next thing to keep in mind: It would happen on any other platform as well.

My girlfriend and I created an Android game "Pirate Diamonds" (www.PirateDiamonds.com) in our sparetime. It took us years, learning Android code, learning Blender to create the graphics, creating the music, matching the tones of the music to events in the game, donating to the author of the mod-player lib, adding options to challenge friends via SMS (thinking that would spread the game), etc etc. Result: No one is playing the game.
We had previously created "Ukko's Journey" (www.UkkosJourney.com) for the older cellphones, which didn't do that great either. (Ad-provider sucked). And now we decided to do a version for Blu-ray, playable on the modern gaming consoles (www.Blu-Play.com/games), while trying to get other Java devs interested in the platform. Nothing.
We also created "Space Rivals" for the CPC; a 4-player game. Targhan was the only one who posted a positive feedback comment on that one. I doubt anyone else even knows what it is.
My brother created "Another Rocket Game" with a mate of his. Took them at least 5 years creating their own level-editors and lots of levels and graphics etc etc. Then they tried to get it greenlighted on Steam, but got bashed by comments instead.

In other words: You are far from alone, if that's any comfort...

I also have some experience developing for mobile.

In a first stage of J2ME (from 2004 until the launch of the Iphone App Store), It was complicated to publish games since they were sold mainly as content of the operators portals (Vodafone, Orange, etc...). And, once they had their content providers, they did not deal with small indie developers (at least in Spain).

When the iPhone appeared, the whole market changed. Apple was able to get 90% of developers to work for his platform and abandon j2me. It created a big bubble that continues today. At that time, other manufacturers like Nokia and Blackberry copied the model of free store, and in the early years, there was a great opportunity there because surprisingly, even though Nokia had the largest share of device market in the world, they had few publishers compared to Apple and Android. Over time, Android has managed to win the game to Apple and the others have disappeared. Both Apple and Android are very saturated markets and it's really hard to make money.

Regards

arnoldemu

I would be interested to know sales figures and profit from other larger platforms such as c64 or spectrum.

From my experience through Cronosoft and talking to others:

Amstrad would sell like 8 of each game.
Spectrum 50 of each game.
I don't know about c64. Maybe not many (because of crackers)??

I guess Orion Prime and R-Type sold significant numbers because there was hype built up, publicity over multiple websites and because of the unique packaging and materials. @Targhan, is this true?
My games. My Games
My website with coding examples: Unofficial Amstrad WWW Resource

Joseman

#37
Quote from: arnoldemu on 20:29, 20 July 17
I would be interested to know sales figures and profit from other larger platforms such as c64 or spectrum.

From my experience through Cronosoft and talking to others:

Amstrad would sell like 8 of each game.
Spectrum 50 of each game.
I don't know about c64. Maybe not many (because of crackers)??

I guess Orion Prime and R-Type sold significant numbers because there was hype built up, publicity over multiple websites and because of the unique packaging and materials. @Targhan, is this true?

I think that 4mhz had big sales numbers with "adios a la casta", "adios a la casta 2" & "El Tesoro de Cuauhtemoc", maybe they sold hundreds of copies.

As you say, R-type had a lot of sales, even they didn't have enough floppies!!

I don't think that Amstrad games only sell 8 games vs 50 on spectrum, i just don't believe that. Only on my cpc "friend circle" would sell more than 8!!

Even i will say more, games like current projects Pinball dreams & Street Fighter 2 (with proper packages) and possible future games (like SMB) or future 4mhz, cargo soft games will sell several hundreds of copies in days!!

Just my opinion!

roudoudou

Orion prime was pre-ordered, as far as i remember
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Carnivius

Quote from: Joseman on 20:38, 20 July 17

As you say, R-type had a lot of sales, even they didn't have enough floppies!!


Just popped into this topic at this point and haven't read any of it but this caught my eye.
Did they not run into any trouble from Irem for selling what is still their intellectual property?
Favorite CPC games: Count Duckula 3, Oh Mummy Returns, RoboCop Resurrection, Tankbusters Afterlife

Dubliner

Quote from: Joseman on 17:23, 20 July 17
Where they did said that? twitter account?

Yep. David from his account.

Quote from: Joseman on 20:38, 20 July 17
I think that 4mhz had big sales numbers with "adios a la casta", "adios a la casta 2" & "El Tesoro de Cuauhtemoc", maybe they sold hundreds of copies.

Even i will say more, games like current projects Pinball dreams & Street Fighter 2 (with proper packages) and possible future games (like SMB) or future 4mhz, cargo soft games will sell several hundreds of copies in days!!

If i remember well, Cuauhtemoc sold 120 copies (quite impressive actually). Adios a la casta 1 & 2 sold less. Cyberchicken had numered copies and they sold a bit more than 100 in three years.

On the other hand, if you listen to Matranet, he is always complaining that the games doesn´t sell that well. Things like Justin or The Return of Traxtor have sold a couple dozens maybe.

Targhan


QuoteI guess Orion Prime and R-Type sold significant numbers because there was hype built up, publicity over multiple websites and because of the unique packaging and materials. @Targhan, is this true?


I guess yes, for all these reasons, but also because the game looked quite original.


The figures are known, but we sold 175 copies of the packaging. We could have sold much more, but we only did 2 sessions of pre-ordering, as we did the packaging and duplication by ourselves, it would have been too much time-consuming. If I make another game with a packaging, I would use a retro-company that would manage these two aspects.


And there are often people still asking for a packaged version.
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reidrac

#42
Is this one the anonymous CPC developer thread?

Currently I don't have much time to spend on forums (real life has been very busy this year, I hope it'll get better eventually!), but my experience around here when I started a development thread it has always been positive, with some feedback and overall I would say it has always been quite motivating for me.

Then the games gets released and... things get cold really quick. When I mentioned this to Dubliner he said my games were everywhere (and I can only be grateful he's a great guy and we always get good coverage in RetroManiac mag), and I wonder if is just that the size of the active CPC community is what it is.

So @keith56; please don't think is just your games!

I'm not sure if I would measure success by looking at how many physical copies are sold. I always release the games as free download and the physical edition comes afterwards. I see it as a nice thing to have for people that like the games (could we say "fans"?). Anyway, if I was making these games for money or success... hah!  :laugh:

If things go well I may start another dev thread "soon". Please, don't give up if you like it.
Released The Return of Traxtor, Golden Tail, Magica, The Dawn of Kernel, Kitsune`s Curse, Brick Rick and Hyperdrive for the CPC.

If you like my games and want to show some appreciation, you can always buy me a coffee.

Sykobee (Briggsy)

People *love* games in development - updates, screenshots, etc.


But yeah, once released and played (with the amount of time most people have these days), and also the inevitable watch of the Xyphoe review, things do die down a lot.


Which is why the games mag and other things that revisit the games in a year are quite nice too!

||C|-|E||

#44
Well, since everybody said something interesting, my two cents  :)

In our particular case, developing DDLE was a fantastic experience. The support from the community was really good and lots of people got deeply involved. Actually, I would say that the adventure really was a collaborative effort and there is a little bit of everyone that was happy to help on it. Why did we have such an amount of support? I don´t really know, to be honest, but sometimes I think that a key aspect was the amount of info we gave about the development, with screenshots, concepts, periodic updates about the status of the project... we were also openly asking for feedback and help and this allowed a lot of people to step in too.  In summary, I think that developing the adventure "in public" (and I really mean developing it, not only showing our progress) helped a lot and made it to be a much better game. We are deeply grateful to all the people that collaborated.

That said, I am 100% sure that we would have finished the game even with zero feedback. Why? because I was already doing "games" back in my 13s-14s when nobody gave a dam about the Amstrad (1993-1994) and Internet did not exist (in my city). I never cared much about those things, creating a game is something you do just for the fun of it, right? If it is fun, you like it and you feel hopeful and happy, who is going to take that back from you? The greatness is in the journey  :)

TMR

Quote from: arnoldemu on 20:29, 20 July 17
Amstrad would sell like 8 of each game.
Spectrum 50 of each game.
I don't know about c64. Maybe not many (because of crackers)??

The cracking doesn't have a serious effect on sales from what i've seen; cracked versions of new games usually don't have a download at the CSDb unless the author has already released it online (it didn't always work this way but there was a change a while back now) and i believe we shifted over a hundred copies of Edge Grinder on cartridge despite it being cracked three times and freely available for download well in advance of that release.

reidrac

Quote from: TMR on 00:17, 21 July 17
The cracking doesn't have a serious effect on sales from what i've seen; cracked versions of new games usually don't have a download at the CSDb unless the author has already released it online (it didn't always work this way but there was a change a while back now) and i believe we shifted over a hundred copies of Edge Grinder on cartridge despite it being cracked three times and freely available for download well in advance of that release.

I don't know numbers in general, but some recent C64 games have sold a bit over 200 units; that makes it a best seller I've been told. The game was released as free download before the physical edition (although with fewer features, it was the same game), so there's that too.

I don't believe in "buy the game if you want to play it", I think collector editions with some extra value is the way to go. But that's my opinion, anyway :)
Released The Return of Traxtor, Golden Tail, Magica, The Dawn of Kernel, Kitsune`s Curse, Brick Rick and Hyperdrive for the CPC.

If you like my games and want to show some appreciation, you can always buy me a coffee.

arnoldemu

#47
For Stranded on the C64 I didn't release it on-line at all. It was available to buy from Cronosoft for £4. It was a simple game, I guess nobody liked it because it barely sold at all from the numbers reported me. Then it was cracked and that was downloaded much more than any sales and that got more publicity than my version.

It was my first ever game on C64, in fact my first ever coding on c64, but after that I am bitter and I never want to code on C64 again.

The CPC games I sold through Cronosoft, didn't sell well, maybe people thought they were a bit rubbish. On some it was 20, on others less. Eventually I released them on-line in full. It didn't put me off though, because I like the CPC more than other platforms.

Talking to Bob Smith who did lots of games through Cronosoft, he was selling like 30 or 40 of each and they kept on selling.

Maybe they all sold slowly because lack of visibility.

I can understand why Orion Prime, R-Type etc sold better, because they are much better games, with better presentation, design and experience. I guess they interested people a lot more.

I'm pleased to hear that games have sold well on other platforms too.

I keep programming for CPC because I love it :)

EDIT: All of this experience from sales comes from about 10 years ago.
My games. My Games
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TMR

Quote from: arnoldemu on 08:01, 21 July 17
I can understand why Orion Prime, R-Type etc sold better, because they are much better games, with better presentation, design and experience. I guess they interested people a lot more.

Being able to play the games before purchasing will certainly have contributed to their success as well, if you're faced with just a shop front and some still screens or video it's not the same as getting your hands dirty and feeling how a the controls respond but nobody releases demo versions any more...

Over on the Atari 8-bit there are some folks so paranoid about piracy (because it used to be one of the worst platforms for it back in the day, more so than the C64) that they don't trust their customers at all to the point of refusing to sell downloadable images and, if they can be persuaded to trust someone like me as a games reviewer in the first place, will only send watermarked cartridge images. i don't know how well their games sell... in fact i don't even know if they sell because the publishers are so guarded and the response from the community to that level of mistrust hasn't exactly been friendly.


reidrac

#49
Not everybody is "Batman Group" as in... I'm not at that technical level and I can't really make huge games (time!). Besides I prefer to develop my own IP, and that's not "R-Type" famous, of course.

I might be wrong, but I still think that there may be some room for fun mid-size games, perhaps every now and then with some risky innovative gameplay that people may not like (hah). I'd love if the CPC community was more visible in YT, podcasts, and things like that; but it's OK.

EDIT: I asked Poly Play and so far (counting all versions, cassette & disc), 55 copies of Golden Tail and 45 of Magica; which means he hasn't covered costs yet.

I don't know what to expect, if those numbers are good or not. It is still selling and as new games are released there's a chance of more orders.

Perhaps not too promising for the future. I would totally understand if Poly Play doesn't want to edit more CPC games  :(
Released The Return of Traxtor, Golden Tail, Magica, The Dawn of Kernel, Kitsune`s Curse, Brick Rick and Hyperdrive for the CPC.

If you like my games and want to show some appreciation, you can always buy me a coffee.

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