Author Topic: Football Fever (aka - Games with smooth "1" pixel multi directional scrolling.)  (Read 44599 times)

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Offline sigh

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Hi guys,

Could someone list me some games that has 1 pixel scrolling in both directions please? (Games like Dynamite Dux and Skate Crazy look as though they moves 2 pixels horizontally and vertically...?)

If there is already a thread on this that I missed on the search, then I do apologise.

Thanks!

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Edit: Transfered the football gameplay mock up from page 5 to this front page in case anybody misses it. Please refer to page 5 for the details and explanation of the game.



Gameplay mock ups.







« Last Edit: 02:32, 18 July 13 by sigh »

Offline arnoldemu

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Re: Games with smooth "1" pixel multi directional scrolling.
« Reply #1 on: 23:52, 23 April 12 »
Hi guys,

Could someone list me some games that has 1 pixel scrolling in both directions please? (Games like Dynamite Dux and Skate Crazy look as though they moves 2 pixels horizontally and vertically...?)

If there is already a thread on this that I missed on the search, then I do apologise.

Thanks!
On Amstrad Plus, with it's hardware pixel scrolling, I would say probably Epyx World of Sports. Perhaps Robocop 2 and Navy Seals (but I didn't actually check these). Pixel by pixel scrolling is much easier here with it's hardware assistance.

On CPC, moving a screen at the rate of 1 pixel horizontally takes a lot of cpu time, because it's more than copying bytes, it's manipulating them, or it's storing pre-shifted tiles and drawing those.

2 pixels for mode 0 is normal, 4 pixels for mode 1 and 8 pixels for mode 2 because each occupy 1 byte and you can use the cpu to copy bytes - it still takes a lot of cpu time doing just this.

Moving using the hardware it's even more pixels (4 pixels for mode 0, 8 pixels for mode 1, 16 pixels for mode 2 - without the R3 trick, otherwise it's half those). This takes less time because you can update a column or row at a time. To scroll pixel by pixel you would need 2 screens in mode 0 if you used the r3 trick, each is offset by a pixel, and the screen would need to keep moving..

A few games move the screen vertically pixel by pixel (Axys, Mission Genocide), because this is much easier with hardware, but this is single direction and doesn't fulfill your criteria.

In terms of pixel by pixel horizontally, R-type (original) and Lemmings may do it.
But I'm not sure in both directions, perhaps H.A.T.E? Or is the aspect ratio setup so byte by byte horizontally and 1 line vertically?
Back to the Future 2 may do it in both directions, but the play area is a bit small and the gfx "tear" when moving.

Sorry I can't tell you of an example, I'm not sure that many exist, perhaps 10 or so???


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Offline TFM

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Re: Games with smooth "1" pixel multi directional scrolling.
« Reply #2 on: 04:35, 24 April 12 »
Once I did a game with 48 KB screen RAM fullscreen MODE 0 pixel-wise scrolling. Nice on a emulator with 300%, not really nice in real speed though. Can't find the dsk now...
 
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Offline TotO

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Re: Games with smooth "1" pixel multi directional scrolling.
« Reply #3 on: 10:31, 24 April 12 »
R-type (original) and Lemmings may do it.
R-Type 128K do 1 pixel scrolling too.

After, it's not difficult to scroll on both directions; It's more a gameplay restriction than a technical limitation.
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Offline sigh

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Re: Games with smooth "1" pixel multi directional scrolling.
« Reply #4 on: 13:58, 24 April 12 »
Thanks guys.

Having to use 32K for 1 pixel horizontal scrolling, would it need more KB to achieve the "vertical" scrolling too as they are both using different techniques to achieve smooth scrolling? Or is it just not feasible to create an engine that combines the scrollings of Star Sabre and Mission Genocide in one little neat package?

I just looked at H.A.T.E on youtube (isometric), but as it's using mode 1 graphics, I suspect that it moves in bigger pixel steps.

Offline arnoldemu

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Re: Games with smooth "1" pixel multi directional scrolling.
« Reply #5 on: 15:08, 24 April 12 »
Thanks guys.

Having to use 32K for 1 pixel horizontal scrolling, would it need more KB to achieve the "vertical" scrolling too as they are both using different techniques to achieve smooth scrolling? Or is it just not feasible to create an engine that combines the scrollings of Star Sabre and Mission Genocide in one little neat package?

I just looked at H.A.T.E on youtube (isometric), but as it's using mode 1 graphics, I suspect that it moves in bigger pixel steps.
vertical scrolling is done a different way and it doesn't need any extra ram to do it.
it's also compatible with all monitors and tvs.
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Offline Xyphoe

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Re: Games with smooth "1" pixel multi directional scrolling.
« Reply #6 on: 02:31, 30 April 12 »
Killer Cobra has 1px horizontal scrolling, but not vertical too I'm afraid. Well, I'm fairly sure of that.

Smash TV uses a CRTC trick to warp between rooms in horizontal and vertical at 1px but is not used 'in game' so to speak.




Offline Executioner

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Re: Games with smooth "1" pixel multi directional scrolling.
« Reply #7 on: 02:37, 30 April 12 »
Killer Cobra has 1px horizontal scrolling, but not vertical too I'm afraid. Well, I'm fairly sure of that.

I thought Killer Cobra was doing at best one byte (2 pixel) scrolling. I think it's actually about 4 times faster scrolling than Scramble which would make it very hard in the maze section (not that I ever got very far in KC).

Offline ivarf

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Re: Games with smooth "1" pixel multi directional scrolling.
« Reply #8 on: 02:49, 30 April 12 »
TLL has extremly fast scrolling in both directions. 4 pixel scrolling or perhaps 8 pixel? I remember being utterly amazed the first time I played it

Offline sigh

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Re: Games with smooth "1" pixel multi directional scrolling.
« Reply #9 on: 14:44, 30 April 12 »
Thanks for the info guys.


So, due to the lack of examples and most probably being a programmers nightmare - is 1 pixel scrolling in both directions just not viable for games on the CPC? (not PLUS)

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Re: Games with smooth "1" pixel multi directional scrolling.
« Reply #10 on: 14:48, 30 April 12 »
It's not because it was never done in a game than it was not viable.
I'm sure that games with one pixel multidirectional scrolling will be done if the gameplay need that.
« Last Edit: 14:52, 30 April 12 by TotO »
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Offline MacDeath

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Re: Games with smooth "1" pixel multi directional scrolling.
« Reply #11 on: 15:37, 30 April 12 »
Depends what "pixel" you're talking about.
The R-Type scrolling is "one pixel" in mode0, which is still 4 pixels in mode2. :laugh:

wasn't C64 able to scroll at "fine pixels" with large pixels ?


anyway having such fine Multiscroll may give a shitty framerate to a game too.

IMO some games where screwed because they had useless multiscrolling.

examples ?

Copter 271... (GX4000)
it is a vertical shooter, but they added some side scrolling, which is nice on Amiga but but not that good on the GX4000... would have prefered a good game with only vertical.

Final fight.
yeay... there is a vertical scrolling, which is quite useless IMO.the aim was so the big and large sprites wouldn't feel too big on a small game window... and we must remember that this game share the same engine as the Speccy...
but on CPC it is just a waste IMO.
all it would have needed was to have a larger game window (like... 128x256... vertical full screen, like Arkanoid) and there you are, no need to scroll (which add some wheight to the CPU, probably).

 So many multiscrolling games were guite rendered unplayable beause they had this multiscroll but the screen is so small that each time you move the scrolling is used uselessly.

Another example ?

Strider...
yeay, another speccy port.
having a bigger screen (again, 256x256) would be good as the vertical scrolling wouldn't be used each fucking time you jump...

Typicall from those speccy Arcade convertions.
they try to get the sprites almost as on the "320x224" arcade (sort of) or the same as on Atari ST...
but the 256x192 display is even largely reduced because of the HUD (score window)...
into a 208x128...


ok it was a mean to reduce the amount of stuff you had to animate or refresh, which is good on an Atari ST...
but as it just do more scrollings effects... not even sure it is better for the CPU.

because the actual game screen is so small that each time you jump, the scroll goes up then down.


Well, Strider was screwed anyway because it is too much traight speccy, the backgreound in 1bit pex pixels has to be translated into 2bpp as they are used (for the background only, sprites are in proper 2bpp because they are masked graphics on speccy, they were properly ported)


So my point is, multiscoll can be used, but it has to be cleverly use... and actually usefull.
and must not be used to make up for some faulty engine choices, which may not help at all.

Another better exemple : Ghost and goblins.

Not really 1 pixel scrolling (well... fast scrolling but quite smooth anyway).
some levels have vertical and horizontal scrolling.
Yet it is helped by the fact the screen is in proper "320x200" (160x200...mode0) and the sprites are not too big (well, they are normal) so the scrolling doesn't start too often.
Level design also help this (while it screw it on strider)


Titan by titus (French)...
it had an impressive multiscrolling, but not that smooth, quite fast anyway.
And it was in 128x256 too... ;D

Titan for Amstrad CPC

Mister Heli had a cool multiscrolling too.
[AMSTRAD CPC] Mr. Heli (Battle Chopper) - Review & Longplay (no life lost)
[AMSTRAD CPC] Mr. Heli (Battle Chopper) - Review & Longplay (no life lost)
 
« Last Edit: 22:42, 30 April 12 by MacDeath »

Offline sigh

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Re: Games with smooth "1" pixel multi directional scrolling.
« Reply #12 on: 16:09, 30 April 12 »
Depends what "pixel" you're talking about.
The R-Type scrolling is "one pixel" in mode0, which is still 4 pixels in mode2. :laugh:

wasn't C64 able to scroll at "fine pixels" with large pixels ?


anyway having such fine Multiscroll may give a shitty framerate to a game too.

IMO some games where screwed because they had useless multiscrolling.

examples ?

Copter 271... (GX4000)
it is a vertical shooter, but they added some side scrolling, which is nice on Amiga but but not that good on the GX4000... would have prefered a good game with only vertical.

Final fight.
yeay... there is a vertical scrolling, which is quite useless IMO.the aim was so the big and large sprites wouldn't feel too big on a small game window... and we must remember that this game share the same engine as the Speccy...
but on CPC it is just a waste IMO.
all it would have needed was to have a larger game window (like... 128x256... vertical full screen, like Arkanoid) and there you are, no need to scroll (which add some wheight to the CPU, probably).

 So many multiscrolling games were guite rendered unplayable beause they had this multiscroll but the screen is so small that each time you move the scrolling is used uselessly.
Yet it is helped by the fact the screen is in proper "320x200" (160x200...mode0) and the sprites are not too big (well, they are normal) so the scrolling doesn't start too often.
Level design also help this (while it screw it on strider)

Okay - so for instance, some mode 0 16x16 sprites on a background of 320 x 200 would work well with multi directional scrolling? But bigger sprites such as 64x64 wouldn't really cut it?

Would the frame rate on a 16x16 sprite on 320x200 still be shitty?
« Last Edit: 16:12, 30 April 12 by sigh »

Offline MacDeath

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Re: Games with smooth "1" pixel multi directional scrolling.
« Reply #13 on: 16:24, 30 April 12 »
I don't know.

Depends when the scrolling is activated.

if it is persistant/permanent scrolling : your sprite is always on the middle of the screen.
 this is far heavier anyway.

while commodore/amiga games often had this because of awesome hardware, the software machines had the scrolling often activated when you reach the border or the screen (aor a bit before if done well)

There compare...
Blues brothers on Amiga : permanent scrolling : the hero is always on the center of the screen (as in many console games)
Amiga - The Blues Brothers

but on MS-Dos PC, where scrolling is software, it is more like what was often done on the Amstrad CPC... "smooth flip screen scrolling".
DOS - The Blues Brothers

CPC version... not scrolling, real flip screens... Gryzor style.
[AMSTRAD CPC] Blues Brothers - Review & Longplay (Part 1 of 2)
[AMSTRAD CPC] Blues Brothers - Review & Longplay (Part 1 of 2)
you actually have all the "doing it wrong" aspects...
small screen, badly used Mode1... (wrong choices of blues, not enough contrast)
and... because the screens are too small, the flip screen is just plain pain in the @$$hole.
Only "good point" is you don't have a larger than screen HUD (scores) zone... oh wait, the game is still in 256x144... which is even worse...
damn 64k version, you ruined my life !!!

Many consolefags or Commodorks argue that permanent smooth hard scrolling is best...
But IMO a properly well done flip screen scrolling is not that shitty, I even prefer it...
(because I had a CPC then a PC...lol)

The main point is that it have to be well managed.
Flipscreen scrolling need the screen to be large, the sprite not too big (question of proportion) and must activate a bit before you reach the border so you are sure there won't be some enemies appearing "on you", and you must be able to actually move while it scrolls...

unlike what was done on greenberets on CPC, which is the worst exemple of faulty flipscreen scrolling.

Green Beret Amstrad cpc (Missile-Harbor) 1/2
flip screen smooth scrolling that is :
=slow
=can't move shit while scrolling.
good point : it doesn't activate on "border contact"

Compare with Ghost and goblin :
[Amstrad Cpc] Ghost 'N Goblins Longplay
[Amstrad Cpc] Ghost 'N Goblins Longplay

Faster scrolling sequences, and you still move and shoot, the game is not paused = playable !

"flip screen scrolling":  is it the adequat wording ???

Flip Screen Scrolling - Television Tropes & Idioms
Flip Screen Scrolling - Television Tropes & Idioms
« Last Edit: 16:37, 30 April 12 by MacDeath »

Offline fgbrain

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Re: Games with smooth "1" pixel multi directional scrolling.
« Reply #14 on: 19:11, 30 April 12 »
For old generation CPC, I believe the smoothest scroll in 8 directions is in a PD game called "Burning Wheels" by T. M. SCHMIDT :

http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=635

Almost impossible for me to play  :'( ...
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Re: Games with smooth "1" pixel multi directional scrolling.
« Reply #15 on: 20:06, 30 April 12 »
wasn't C64 able to scroll at "fine pixels" with large pixels ?

Yes, the C64 never really leaves 320x200 mode so the hardware smooth scroll and sprite co-ordinates constantly work at that resolution. The same is true of the C16 (and it's sisters) and the C128's 640x200 column display can be hardware scrolled in single pixels too.

i could well be wrong and it's probably been about a year since i last played it properly, but i was under the impression that Killer Cobra was moving at four mode 0 pixels a frame...? (i've always rather liked it in fact, ever since someone pointed it out to me at the Retro Gamer forums.)

Offline sigh

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I just tried Mr Heli (great game!) and it's not really a multidirectional scroll in the true sense, as it will either scroll across or down, but not both at the same time. (diagonal movement)

Also tried dynamite dux and it has a quick horizontal scroll of 2 pixels, and a slower vertical scroll also at 2 pixels. When pressing up and across (diagonal) the scroll speed seems somewhere inbetween.

Then...I tried "Burning Wheels" and it looks like it has a 1 pixel scroll in both directions BUT, when performing both at the same time (diagonal) the screen shudders violently! This is evident when your playing track 1. Anyone know why this could be happening, or could it just be due to me using an emulator (winape)?



Offline ervin

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i could well be wrong and it's probably been about a year since i last played it properly, but i was under the impression that Killer Cobra was moving at four mode 0 pixels a frame...? (i've always rather liked it in fact, ever since someone pointed it out to me at the Retro Gamer forums.)

It looks as though KC actually scrolls at 2 mode pixels per frame, BUT it also appears to be double-buffered.

I'm not an expert on these things, but I believe that means it can scroll each "screen" using hardware scrolling (i.e. 4 mode 0 pixels per frame), and flip between them. One would be offset by 2 mode 0 pixels from the other, and therefore the scrolling appears to be 2 mode 0 pix per frame.

I don't think its speed and smoothness would be possible otherwise, unless some really clever adaptile tile refresh techniques were being employed.

It's actually a REALLY playable game if slowed down to 50%!
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Offline MacDeath

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Pacmania has some oblique/diagonal scrolling and horizontal one.

the game seems a bit slowlier during the "vertical on... which is a bit normal, in order to give some perspactive effect, but also perhaps because the framerate must gets hurt to perform it... (alongside many speccy format translations, and fucking useless rasters, and so on...)

Pacmania per Amstrad CPC by Ataru'75 [020]
Pacmania per Amstrad CPC by Ataru'75 [020]

and if I recal well, the sprites are in 1bit per pixel with and additional 1bpp mask... what ?
yet still in the same colour as the background ?

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fucking speccy, you ruined my life !!!!!!!!

 ;D



A funny detail too is that the Sega Master system actually had a specific Diagonal scrolling...
« Last Edit: 02:49, 01 May 12 by MacDeath »

Offline sigh

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Just had a look at Skate Crazy again and like dynamite dux, it's also a 2 pixel scroll in both directions and also has a similar movement in regards to diagonals like Dynamite Dux.

I find "Burning Wheels" very interesting in regards to scrolling, but with the shakey diagonals - I wonder if used on a proper CPC monitor, that the diagonals wouldn't have that problem?

Offline Axelay

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It looks as though KC actually scrolls at 2 mode pixels per frame, BUT it also appears to be double-buffered.

I'm not an expert on these things, but I believe that means it can scroll each "screen" using hardware scrolling (i.e. 4 mode 0 pixels per frame), and flip between them. One would be offset by 2 mode 0 pixels from the other, and therefore the scrolling appears to be 2 mode 0 pix per frame.

I don't think its speed and smoothness would be possible otherwise, unless some really clever adaptile tile refresh techniques were being employed.

It's actually a REALLY playable game if slowed down to 50%!


Killer Cobra is a single screen (at &c000, you can use Winape's graphics finder to see this) and uses R3 scrolling to achieve a byte width, or 2 mode 0 pixel step scroll.  You can use Winape's Debug->Registers option to see R3 swap between &5 and &E.


The 50fps it runs at doesn't look that 'complex' to me though, and I'm not trying to say it's not clever - I haven't looked at the code, but there are not that many sprites on screen at once (as far as I have got) and even fewer of them actually move.  Potentially the static targets may not even be updated other than when they are destroyed, and the sprites that do move are all moving over blank background, enabling fast sprite code.  The only time I see sprites move over background is when the player explodes, and at this time the scrolling has stopped and the missiles in motion seem to disappear or halt, so however it handles that explosion, it's gained a lot of spare CPU time.  Then there's the status bar which is part of the scrolling screen - the score and lives disappear before the scrolling starts, and the fuel indicator is just a series of lines, so probably only the beginning and end of the lines are being 'maintained', especially as when you gain fuel, rather than instantly jump up to the new level you can see the gauge quickly refills a little each frame.

Offline TFM

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For old generation CPC, I believe the smoothest scroll in 8 directions is in a PD game called "Burning Wheels" by T. M. SCHMIDT :

http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=635

Almost impossible for me to play  :'( ...

Really impossible to play, but I guess it's two MODE 0 pixel scrolling.
 
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Offline sigh

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Really impossible to play, but I guess it's two MODE 0 pixel scrolling.
 

Really? I managed to survive on track 2 for 1 minute and 36 seconds and it had a Mission Genocide/Star Sabre quality scroll to it. However - it is a really fast game, so probably a 1 pixel scroll would be unecessary?

I did notice that when you start the racing, it scrolls in bigger chunks when the car is accelerating and then smoothens out when the car hits top speed.

Offline TFM

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You're a good gamer! ;D
 
Well, it's too quick for 1 pixel scroll.
 
A good means to assess games it to use WinApe at very low speed, so you can see the pixels moving. (And yes, I can! 8) )
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Offline TFM

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Ok, I don't lack the answer any longer...
 
Yes, CPC has one game using 1 pel (abbrv. for pixel) scroll. It's Side Arms:
http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=1933
 
Tada  :laugh:
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