Author Topic: MSX Gryzor?  (Read 11374 times)

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Offline Gryzor

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MSX Gryzor?
« on: 09:48, 23 May 12 »
Hello guys,


Mgman changed the Wiki page for Gryzor, removing the MSX reference. I'm not sure this should be so... I mean yes, it was not made by Ocean but still it's an 8-bit port (the DOS port is not, of course 8-bit, but it could still go in the comparison).


He also says: "not Gryzor". I looked it up and found this video that says, in the description: "Often mistaken as Gryzor, it's really Contra. "


What gives? All I see is Gryzor - and in any case, isn't Contra a different name for the same game? That's what I always thought, but these comments here...?

Offline MacDeath

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #1 on: 10:04, 23 May 12 »
We also had Probotector on NES in europe, Bill and Lance were replaced by robots or something like this.

Fact is, Contra was ported in occident on homecomputer under the name Gryzor.

Gryzor is contro, not the opposite.

Also many Arcade games had different names according to regions.

Black Tiger was in Fact Black Dragon... The first black tiger arcade I saw (I was young and officially underage to play it, lol) was named Black Dragon (import ? bootleg ?) so I was even surprised to see it was called Black Tiger on homecomputers...because I only saw it as Black Dragon.

Xain'd Sleen'a (never know the exact spelling) was also re-branded soldier of light (even on CPC).





Galivan csosmo police was an adaptation from a famous japanese TV series known as "X-Or" in France... It as nevertheless sold as Galvan... the sword on the logo was not seen as the "i" it was supposed to be, and they didn't even marketed it as X-Or in france, hence no one knew such adaptation for what it really was.






Also, Okuto no Ken/Kenshiro was broadcast to children (yes, a bit violent...) as "Ken le survivant" (with quite strange dubbing too)
The Sega master system game was rebranded as "BlackBelt" (bad game anyway)... while again it could have sold betterly by keeping the Ken franchise.


Japanese were no good at actually exporting their "cultural products" as they were (successfull franchise in their home market)...
All their franchise were not supposed to be exported but were, they though some typical japanese stufff wouldn't selll in europe/USA because their "curtule" is so specific...
So most of their Franchise had even some legal isue as they were lost in translation, they were even sold in weight of Videotape...

Grendizer franchise was known as Goldorak in france, it was the very first "manga" on TV... but the japanese were screwed by the French producers and signed a contract giving those French the internationnal right on the Franchise.


Yeah this thing is illegal in france because no one know who has the legal right to it.

Now, we can't find any Grendizer products because it is still in legal court.

Yep, Go Nagai is still the owner... but not in France. ;)


They were wrong, we love their culture and Video games and it don't need to be occidentalised too much we can even understand it.
Nothing that special here for us barbarious Geishins.
We also used to have peoples killing themselves with sharp blades and swords in the middle age...lol.
« Last Edit: 10:15, 23 May 12 by MacDeath »

Offline Gryzor

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #2 on: 10:08, 23 May 12 »
Please, man, stay on topic :D :D :D


I know the game was released with different names in different regions, that's what I'm saying. In fact, I think we've discussed this before, how they changed the name for political reasons.


So you're saying that it is, in fact the same game. So I guess the MSX comparison should also go back into the article? And since we're at it, should we also include the DOS version?

Offline MacDeath

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #3 on: 10:23, 23 May 12 »
Sorry...

My point is, we should tell the story about the Contra/Gryzor/Probotector franchise, this isa good story which should be on the wikipage...
And yep, all those regionalistic variation could be included in some sort of comparison.

But it is also right to say Contra on MSX is not really Gryzor on Home computers...
Not the same house producing it (OCEAN for Gryzor)...

WAs often the case on MSX.
Europeans only did some shitty Speccy ports on it for the Arcade hits, while the Japanese did awesome Cartridges games when dealing with arcade ports themselves.

But As in Japan, some company didn't wanted to do proper ports on MSX due to competition... it let the european publisher free to do their own ports...
Example... shinobi is a Sega game.
Not sure Sega wanted to have it released on MSX as it would compete with it's Sega homeconsole versions...
But Europeans got a deal to port it on homecomputers, and MSX is a homecomputer...

Sadly their MSX version can't really compete with SegaMaster System version... :D
As the concept of 8x1 pixels attributs and HardwareSrpite seem to be completely stranger to European publishers.

Offline Gryzor

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #4 on: 10:34, 23 May 12 »
Well, you're right - and it wasn't from Ocean, but still, it *was* a Gryzor port. Not?


Still, the opening screen/logo is really nice, I thought I'd see similar stuff after that, but no...

Offline MacDeath

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #5 on: 12:23, 23 May 12 »
Haha you're doing it wrong, Gryzor is a Contra port, not the opposite, but after all it's the same and you clearly don't want to be called Contra... ;)

(the word "Con" has a funny sense in French...)

You must be too CPC centred, but what to expect fro mthe guy who handle the CPCwiki... ;D


I edited the page again, hope it is OK now...

but I understand the polemic...
In fact "not the same game" is not the true objection, the true objection is that butthurt MSX fanboyz can't take it when once for all Amstrad CPC managed a game better than MSX

A rare occurence of course... speccy ports didn't help...

exept when said MSX games were also Wersterner's Speccy ports (shinobi anyone ?)


In MSX community, Konami and Capcom MSX cartridges are held in high regard like religious sanctified stuff, you simply cannot emit any critic or will be  tagged as a "infeliol fanboy" mark and get killed by Japanese Ninjas.


just almost kidding of course. ;D

wait, there's someone at the door...WTF... fucking ninjas they can hide everywhere....
Thank god i'm a Pirate, hence i beat Ninjas.
 
« Last Edit: 13:04, 23 May 12 by MacDeath »

Offline rexbeng

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #6 on: 14:33, 23 May 12 »
Well, the answer is obvious. If Gryzor is regarder as a different game to Contra, then this computer had two games instead of one  :P  Contra (1988) screenshots - MobyGames
And I just realised that you, Gryzor, are entitled to two avatars. So go make a double account under the name "Contra", but keep the same avatar pic ;D

Regards,rb

Offline Gryzor

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #7 on: 14:35, 23 May 12 »
Ahhh damn, that's a great idea, really! Every now and then I create test accounts to test different things, and I always forget what they were called. But this is superb :)

Offline Contra

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #8 on: 09:48, 24 May 12 »
Ohhh hello guys!

Offline ivarf

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #9 on: 12:28, 24 May 12 »
Ohhh hello guys!


haha a Speccy!  :D

Offline Gryzor

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #10 on: 16:39, 24 May 12 »
Yes he is. Just ignore the dude.

Offline mgman

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #11 on: 03:11, 25 May 12 »
Alright, I'm getting fed up with this confusion. I'm not mad at anybody; I just want this cleared up.
 
First and foremost, I cannot (should not) tell anyone what should be on certain wiki's. That's up to them. But I can provide suggestions to improve article quality. Please take a look at this discussion page to see what I suggested: Talk:Gryzor - CPCWiki - The Ultimate Amstrad CPC Community & Encyclopedia!
Talk:Gryzor - CPCWiki - The Ultimate Amstrad CPC Community & Encyclopedia! (at bottom) One big example is how I suggested not to place the paragraph describing the MSX Contra. The article is about Gryzor for CPC, so the focus should be on it. The description of MSX Contra there is also inaccurate. Furthermore, if you want to discuss MSX Contra like that, you should do the same for every other Contra port.
 
Moving on: clarification:
 
The Contra game on MSX is not called Gryzor. The three Japanese characters on the title screen will translate to Contra. Those are the same three characters seen in all Japanese versions of Contra and they all mean Contra. The only instances of Gryzor in any official games are: Arcade Contra in Europe; European ports of arcade Contra/Gryzor (CPC, C64, ZX Spectrum and DOS). 3 of the computer Gryzor versions were developed by Ocean (and one only published by Ocean). Contra MSX was developed and released by Konami. It differs greatly from Ocean's ports. It is not based on arcade Gryzor, but arcade Contra. HOWEVER... they're still re-iterations of the arcade game; that's it. There is not enough to merit a "superior-inferior" comparison. Ocean's ports share certain motifs not in common with MSX Contra and vice versa.
 
About the linked MSX Contra video: The video description is in reference to the game's title. It doesn't intentionally imply Gryzor and Contra are 2 different games. However, there is one difference between arcade Contra and Gryzor that makes the play experience significantly different: the way 2 player mode works.
 
The DOS version is also a port not that Ocean had no involvement in except publishing. The DOS port, I'm sure, is 8-bit.
 
Gryzor on C64 was later re-released in North America under the title "Contra" to fit the market.
 
I know this. I'm a Contra nut and besides me, there are plenty of Contra enthusiasts who share the same notion and have the same facts. The Contra series is very obscure these days and finding the right info on the series isn't necessarily easy. Lots of misleading info.
 
Side note: Contra has more Spanish (I think) origin than French :P "Contre" is French, yes. But Contra itself is a Spanish word and it means against.
 
The exact reason for renaming Contra to Gryzor is unknown. Same with Abbreviating many Contra games to "**** C" (like Super Contra to Super C). More info on this in the discussion page.
« Last Edit: 06:05, 25 May 12 by mgman »

Offline rexbeng

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #12 on: 10:12, 25 May 12 »
...and to close this discussion, it seems that all we need is for some super-coder to make a "Super Gryzor 128" game! Axelay?  :P


rb

Offline Metr

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #13 on: 10:14, 25 May 12 »
To be honest and always from my opinion (you can split on it if you want) and not trying to offend to anyone:
2 players same screen / 2 players one after another, doesnt justify a name change in a global scale.
Adventure Island / Wonder Boy copyright issues, Rusn'n Attack / Green Beret conflict issues, Translation issues.. this kind of things do, there's an excuse/mistake.


Anyways we are talking about Konami, and 'the japanese company' likes to do this kind of name change stuff.
Look Castlevania / Akumaj├┤ Dracula / MSX Vampire Killer for example.


If you compare Gryzor for CPC to anything, I think the way to go is 1) arcade 2) home conversions.




3 of the computer Gryzor versions were developed by Ocean (and one only published by Ocean). Contra MSX was developed and released by Konami. It differs greatly from Ocean's ports. It is not based on arcade Gryzor, but arcade Contra.




Sorry, NO. If you tell me there's a significant difference between Arcade versions that justify I cant compare ARCADE Gryzor and Contra because the have different names..  then I'll buy your "based on arcade Gryzor / based on arcade Contra" sentences. It's the same arcade with MINOR differences so it will be the same "original" game despite of the name changes.
Now, the point of this. Ocean version is based on ARCADE, I don't mind if you call it Gryzor, you call it Contra again. Ocean did an awesome job so we can be proud. I dont mind if it's Konami's mother or his cousin trying to do the home conversion.  If it's a good job it's a good job and Konami even took the Ocean cover. It's hard not to compare it to C64, DOS, ZX Spectrum, or even MSX when they are all based in the same original concept.
Konami did home conversions yes, for the NES and for MSX. But they had ACTUAL differences with the arcade, NES version being closer to ARCADE, MSX being SO different. And THIS could be in an ideal world the real motif I could not compare the versions. MSX version put a health bar, MSX version put a different weapon system, MSX version put the rear gun. MSX version have additional and new levels and MSX version is single player?


I mean you could be a Contra enthusiast, that's great. I'm a Gryzor enthusiast. I like more this name, I'm in love with the Amstrad version, and it has the nostalgic bonus it's the first one of the Contra universe that got in my hands, and as every of us experimented with one or another game, that reset your brain and convert it in "the first and only true god of all of them". But if you really want to play the game of differences between different versions then I suggest you point 3 of them:
- ARCADE (Contra or Gryzor)
- NES (Contra or Probotector)
- MSX (Contra or Whatever)


People will ALWAYS compare the games with the same origin, and using the name as argument to say they can't.. well that's not the way to go I think.


PD: they all mean Contra
You mean read.


PD2: Contra was renamed Gryzor because the term Contra could refer to "the Iran-Contra affair" or "Nicaraguan Contra rebels"... which were hot international political topics in 1987.
There's another theory about the lastname of Bill Rizer translated bad to Gryzor. I would include both ^^


PD3: I will always own the best conversion, Konami LCD Game !
« Last Edit: 10:18, 25 May 12 by Metr »

Offline Axelay

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #14 on: 12:54, 25 May 12 »
...and to close this discussion, it seems that all we need is for some super-coder to make a "Super Gryzor 128" game! Axelay?  :P


rb


Unfortunately, John Brandwood was my coding hero back then, so out of respect, I'm not allowed.  :P

Offline ivarf

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #15 on: 13:15, 25 May 12 »
 From the CPC Gryzorwiki
"Even the C64 and MSX ports , two machines often judged superior to Amstrad CPC in many ways, were somewhat inferior compared to the CPC version."


Who writes this shit? Bogstandard MSX superior to the Amstrad CPC wtf???


mgman wrote
"the DOS version is also a port not that Ocean had no involvement in except publishing. The DOS port, I'm sure, is 8-bit."


You are probably right if you like to define the 8088 as an 8-bit processor. But to me an 8-bit external bus doesn't make it 8-bit

Offline Gryzor

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #16 on: 13:17, 25 May 12 »
Hello mgman,

To begin with, all views are really welcome, both in the forum and in the wiki. I think this is the least fanboi-based community you will find (not to say we're not biased, of course).

That said, Contra *is* Gryzor and vice versa. Pretending they're not the same is... well, I don't know what it is and what the motive behind that would be, but I know it is not correct. I don't care about minor differences or a different name (heck, conversions between machines always have differences), just play it - it's the same game. To put it another way: if Contra had come out in the home computers and then someone produced the totally-really-different-game Gryzor, what would the people have said? :D
   
Yes, we know the MSX port "is not called Gryzor", but that's not what we're debating.

I do believe you're a Contra nut, it shows in your passion, so -who knows, maybe we've been wrong all along- please do point out the differences. Maybe we'll learn something, and I'm saying is as sincerely as possible. For instance, in the article Discussion page you mention a distinct difference between the Contra and Gryzor arcades.
   
If Konami has not been exploiting the property then, of course, you're more than welcome to correct that on the wiki page.

Also, the article says "This is probably the best port amongst 8 bit computers, always referenced as such by Amstrad CPC fans in the 8-bit wars." which is pretty accurate and objective. I don't see where the problem with this sentence is. What's more, it's not arrogant; biased, maybe, but still that doesn't make it any less true. There are a few games in life where it's clear when a specific port stands heads and shoulders above the rest; this is such a case.

The music argument is pretty weak, I think; the important thing back then was the name, not the title of some song that noone would know about. But what were these songs anyway? Even now I can't find anything on google...

Please do reply; this is an interesting question, but I don't think the supporting evidence is any strong...

Cheers
G

PS The DOS version was 8-bit? How....?

Offline MacDeath

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #17 on: 15:09, 25 May 12 »
Quote
"Even the C64 and MSX ports , two machines often judged superior to Amstrad CPC in many ways, were somewhat inferior compared to the CPC version."

Who writes this shit? Bogstandard MSX superior to the Amstrad CPC wtf???
It's me, thx.

I go to a french forum on all retro machines : Gamopat's forum.

And many MSX fanboys always say MSX is superior to CPC becaus those Konami and Capcom cartridges games re often better than equivalent CPC ports, who used to be Speccy ports...

Salamande anyone ?

Of course this is biased, MSX1 is not really better than CPC, but MSX2 is somewhat, and MSX2+ and TurboR are definitely beyond most 8bit computers (but ares those still really 8bit computers ?)

Quote
two machines often judged superior to Amstrad CPC in many ways
it doesn't mean they are superior, but "they are often judged as such"... as in "many peoples think they are"...

MSX1 has some Hardware sprites, it means many games have a better playability than CPC games...
But of course, MSX1&2 ca't scroll shit !

(only 2+ and turboR have good scrollings ability)

And MSX1 actually has shitty 1bit per pixel graphics...


I have to argue hard to ask them to always detil what spec of MSX they are talking about, because for them it is alwaussimply "MSX" which isfalse, you hve to specify what spec it is hence MSX2/MSX2+/MSXturboR...

or else MSX is simply MSX1, which is shitty computer actually IMO.


concerning C64... oh boyz... C64 fanboyz can't understand their machine has shitty graphics on most Games.
But hey, nice 1bit scrollings, fast paced smooth action and sweet SID sound...

Well, to be honnest I'm not a huge fan of SID... to me it is just a gimmick sound and often make my ears to bleed...

Hard sprite is good, but it was also some sort of limitation : too few colours, somewhat attributed, and also somewhat limited by the sprite multiplexing capability.

And both MSX1 and C64 can't do shit in software sprites...
« Last Edit: 15:43, 25 May 12 by MacDeath »

Offline Devilmarkus

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #18 on: 15:22, 25 May 12 »
Yes he is. Just ignore the dude.

Humm.... Lemme check what happens, when I ban him by IP :P
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Offline MacDeath

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #19 on: 15:47, 25 May 12 »
Renegade is also quite different, in Japan and Westworld versions.

Renegade - Video Game (Japanese Version) - No Sound
Renegade Arcade
Renegade 100%

Wow, that's true the CPC renegade is quite faithfull to the arcade indeed.

also a nice video on the whoe computer series from Imagine (OCEAN)
Renegade 3: The Final Chapter
"Renegayde 3 : the final insult"


but still arcade Renegade is considered a port from the Japanese game, hence Amstrad Renegade is also somewhat a port from this one.


NES seemed to have 3 games looking strangely similar too. :laugh:

Gryzor: Intro & levels 1,2 & 3
Gryzor: Intro & levels 1,2 & 3
Let's Play Contra 01: Speedy start.
Let's Play Contra 01: Speedy start.
Probotector NES game play

the Gryzor version has some extra cinematics...
« Last Edit: 16:14, 25 May 12 by MacDeath »

Offline ivarf

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #20 on: 15:51, 25 May 12 »
The weird thing is that neither Gryzor or Renegade got very good reviews at the time in Amstrad and generic magazines

Offline Gryzor

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #21 on: 15:54, 25 May 12 »
The weird thing is that neither Gryzor or Renegade got very good reviews at the time in Amstrad and generic magazines



Maybe they played the MSX version ;D

Offline McKlain

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #22 on: 15:59, 25 May 12 »
Yeah yeah, we all know that the c64 sucks and all that, but still I want to see (and hear) something like this on any of the other 8 bit computers of it's time:

Mayhem in monsterland C64

And this game runs at 60fps, if my memory serves me well. You can't notice that on the youtube video.

Offline Gryzor

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #23 on: 16:03, 25 May 12 »
Can we not steer this into a CPC vs c64 debate please? :)

Offline McKlain

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Re: MSX Gryzor?
« Reply #24 on: 16:10, 25 May 12 »
Can we not steer this into a CPC vs c64 debate please? :)

Every platform has it's pros and it's cons, you just need the knowledge to take advantage of the pros and avoid the cons as much as possible.

Honestly, I'm a bit tired of reading that this or that other computer is shit or has shitty (graphics, sound, expansion capabilities, games, you name it). We all love our CPCs (some of you even with passion) but let's be a bit more humble, guys.