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Hi. Would really appreciate some help on the graphic resolutions on these two games.

I want to ask what resolution Renegade and Target Renegade was made in. Its just that they are both using 16 colours but are larger in width than Mode 0 allows - even in overscan. If it were made using a mix of 2 resolutions (like "Sorcery") what were those resolutions?

Thanks!

Edit: I gave most of the games away to forum members, so I cant take a look!

Quote from: sigh on 17:17, 07 December 10
Hi. Would really appreciate some help on the graphic resolutions on these two games.

I want to ask what resolution Renegade and Target Renegade was made in. Its just that they are both using 16 colours but are larger in width than Mode 0 allows - even in overscan. If it were made using a mix of 2 resolutions (like "Sorcery") what were those resolutions?

Thanks!

Edit: I gave most of the games away to forum members, so I cant take a look!

Both use mode 0 for the main play area (sprites and backgrounds).

The screen is actually reduced down from normal mode 0 (160x200) to (128x192) to be almost the same as a spectrum screen size.

There is a mode change for mode 1 for a panel at the bottom.

Thanks for the info.

That is so strange! Graphically the game is using wide pixels at being 160 x 200, but how did they make the width longer? Was is some how swapped around to 200x160 instead?

Quote from: sigh on 17:37, 07 December 10
Thanks for the info.

That is so strange! Graphically the game is using wide pixels at being 160 x 200, but how did they make the width longer? Was is some how swapped around to 200x160 instead?

Hmmm.. as far as I am aware the width of the screen is smaller than normal.

That's why I was thinking that maybe there was a mix of 2 resolutions which is possible on the amstrad:

http://gfxzone.planet-d.net/articles/cpc_graphics-article_01.html

http://www.emunova.net/veda/test/1934.htm

..hmmm

It's like there is a confusion between mode and resolution.
Target Renegade uses 32 chars screen width that gives 128 pixels width in mode 0 for game zone and 256 pixels width in mode 1 for the osd/hud.
Real resolution on CPC depends diplay mode (0,1,2) and screen width settings (CRTC registers).If you consider resolution is pixel size , Target Renegade uses differents resolutions (not if you think like CPC/CRTC lol)

Ahhh...I think I'm starting to understand. I'm thinking of creating some graphics for a CPC game. So I could use 320 for the hud and 160 pixels wide for the in game screen. For the height (it will have scrolling)  I can have it as 100 pixels wide in game and 200 for hud (the game screen being in the middle).

Okay, thanks

Quote from: sigh on 19:42, 07 December 10
Ahhh...I think I'm starting to understand. I'm thinking of creating some graphics for a CPC game. So I could use 320 for the hud and 160 pixels wide for the in game screen. For the height (it will have scrolling)  I can have it as 100 pixels wide in game and 200 for hud (the game screen being in the middle).

Yes, this is right, but don't forget that the 160 pixel width screen (MODE 0) means the pixels are actually 'double length' in appearance, so if you draw all you stuff nicely in a normal pixel editor it will look stretched on when you transfer it to the CPC.

An easy way to design graphics for this mode is simply to use double pixels in a paint program, but remember this is only horizontally and not vertically.

Have a look at this graphic (http://www.grimware.org/lib/exe/fetch.php/graphics/grim/amstrad_cpc_graphics_mode.png) on Grim's website to see what I mean.

This is a solution , some editors like The Gimp or Grafx2 have special settings to draw wide pixels (mode 0) or tall pixels (mode 2)

( A little advertising for my prefered pixel editor for CPC/+ http://code.google.com/p/grafx2/ (http://code.google.com/p/grafx2/)  :-* )

It's also worth remembering, if you're planning to do a game with a split mode display, that it requires reasonably accurate timing to change the display. This means you either need to syncronise the change with a interrupt or will need some very accurate timing routines to keep things working.

Quote from: andycadley on 22:31, 07 December 10
It's also worth remembering, if you're planning to do a game with a split mode display, that it requires reasonably accurate timing to change the display. This means you either need to syncronise the change with a interrupt or will need some very accurate timing routines to keep things working.

True, unless you use a Plus  8)

Thanks for the info!
I'll do the graphics and an animated  mock up/demo first to show how it would play. Hopefully that will gather some interest for a programmer to take it on.

Thanks!

Quote from: sigh on 01:18, 08 December 10
Thanks for the info!
I'll do the graphics and an animated  mock up/demo first to show how it would play. Hopefully that will gather some interest for a programmer to take it on.

Thanks!

I am a programmer...

I'm working on a game at the moment that will be finished in the new year... after then... well ;)

Quote from: fano on 20:28, 07 December 10
This is a solution , some editors like The Gimp or Grafx2 have special settings to draw wide pixels (mode 0) or tall pixels (mode 2)

( A little advertising for my prefered pixel editor for CPC/+ http://code.google.com/p/grafx2/ (http://code.google.com/p/grafx2/)  :-* )

Indeed if you want to use gimp:

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/download/gimp.zip

These may help

when you create a new image set the image size, then in advanced options set x resolution to 36 and y to 72.
Then to to view "dot for dot".
You'll see the difference quickly and making gfx will be easy too.

Quote from: fano on 20:28, 07 December 10
This is a solution , some editors like The Gimp or Grafx2 have special settings to draw wide pixels (mode 0) or tall pixels (mode 2)

( A little advertising for my prefered pixel editor for CPC/+ http://code.google.com/p/grafx2/ (http://code.google.com/p/grafx2/)  :-* )

Shame that the URL isn't working - very odd for Google. Will look later as it looks like a tasty app.

Weird it works fine here (SeaMonkey 2.0.10)

Quote from: fano on 18:57, 08 December 10
Weird it works fine here (SeaMonkey 2.0.10)

Yeah, it's working now. Thought it was a weird website issue. It's nice to have something like DPaint again, although the UI is quite jarring on a large monitor.

I've been doing some sprite poses for the demo (scrolling beat em up), but I was wondering that when creating enemies or the 2 player mode, did programmers use code for intricate palette swaps? I notice that in the Renegade games, there were 2 types of enemy per level characters and a boss. They had 1 or 2 attack moves. The walk cycles were the same for most of the characters. Did the programmers just keep the legs the same and palette swap the top half of the body, or did new animation have to be created for each character?

I'm using mode 0 16 colours. I'm thinking that this may have to be a 128k only game! I'll show something soon....

Quote from: sigh on 13:08, 10 December 10
I've been doing some sprite poses for the demo (scrolling beat em up), but I was wondering that when creating enemies or the 2 player mode, did programmers use code for intricate palette swaps? I notice that in the Renegade games, there were 2 types of enemy per level characters and a boss. They had 1 or 2 attack moves. The walk cycles were the same for most of the characters. Did the programmers just keep the legs the same and palette swap the top half of the body, or did new animation have to be created for each character?

I'm using mode 0 16 colours. I'm thinking that this may have to be a 128k only game! I'll show something soon....

Well, mostly the game was memory limited.

If you consider that these games used double buffer to stop sprite flicker, then almost 32k can be taken away immediately for screen data. If you reduce the screen, as they did, and then use software scrolling, you use less ram. The remaining invisible ram can be used to store code, graphics and data.

It is possible they reused the leg graphics and animation where they could, so that there is only one set of leg animation.

I didn't check, but it is possible that the final sprite you see is a composite of more than one sprite, draw to the screen in a certain order.
e.g. leg sprites, then body sprite, then arm sprites.
In this way you compose the final sprite out of other bits.

I know that in the original renegade there are some conversion arrays used to draw the sprite mirrored (so they only stored the graphics for the character pointing to the right and at runtime they used the array to mirror it so the character is pointing to the left).
Again this was done to fit it all into ram.

Also, recolouring of sprites when they are drawn to the screen is possible, normally this is not done by changing palette colours, but recolouring using a in-memory conversion array. If you choose to do it by changing palette colours, then you are then limiting the number of colours you can have for background, so then this is a tradeoff between colour and speed.

What I am saying is that they probably re-used a lot and did a lot at runtime because they just didn't have the ram free to do otherwise.

Aaahh! So the best thing for me to do be to cut the characters into pieces and have a programmer to use an array to change the colours. That makes sense. You stated the trade off in colours, but I'm using 16 for sprites and backgorund, like the other Renegades. I'l give the characters a maximum of 4 frames for each attack move. I think this is roughly the amount of frame for moves in renegade games. Maybe best to follow these methods to get it target renegades 2 player with 4 enemies on screen at once before I start trying to add extra frames for smoothness.

Really appreciating the help!

Quote from: sigh on 13:59, 10 December 10
Aaahh! So the best thing for me to do be to cut the characters into pieces and have a programmer to use an array to change the colours. That makes sense. You stated the trade off in colours, but I'm using 16 for sprites and backgorund, like the other Renegades. I'l give the characters a maximum of 4 frames for each attack move. I think this is roughly the amount of frame for moves in renegade games. Maybe best to follow these methods to get it target renegades 2 player with 4 enemies on screen at once before I start trying to add extra frames for smoothness.

Really appreciating the help!

One thing you should consider is that each sprite should use only 15 colours. Pen 0 should be reserved for transparency.
It is quicker and takes less ram if you define them this way. The alternative is that mask graphics would have to be stored, and this would almost double the amount of ram your sprites take up. The backgrounds can continue to use all 16 colours.

The other thing I think that would really help is possible a design of how the characters react to the player's movement and attacks.

I've seen quite a lot of Amstrad beat em ups, more side ways on, where every character in the game has the same moves and can be defeated in the same way. In addition it is sometimes possible to run your way through most of the level, the games like this (e.g. Dick Tracy) I find are boring to play.

So as well as graphics, please consider writing something about this too.

The reaction from the enemies will be a hit animation, stun animation, duck/dodge animation and an animation with them on the ground. I can't program which is why I'm doing an animation demo and hopefully it will make sense. I think when the reaction takes place might be more of a program thing.

My sprite has 13 colours and wont have anymore. I was thinking that if I were to have the sprites in mode 0 but the background using mode 1 4 colours, would that save on ram? The renegades have only the hud in mode 1 4 colours.

Quote from: sigh on 15:02, 10 December 10
The reaction from the enemies will be a hit animation, stun animation, duck/dodge animation and an animation with them on the ground. I can't program which is why I'm doing an animation demo and hopefully it will make sense. I think when the reaction takes place might be more of a program thing.

My sprite has 13 colours and wont have anymore. I was thinking that if I were to have the sprites in mode 0 but the background using mode 1 4 colours, would that save on ram? The renegades have only the hud in mode 1 4 colours.

re the enemies: the animations are fine.

sprites/background: You can't mix mode 0 and mode 1 in this way. The sprites have to be the same resolution as the background.
You could store the background using 4 colours and convert at runtime, but it would slow the game down and could look ugly?

the hud is a seperate part of the screen, so it can be mode 1 and use 4 colours.

13 colours is fine for the sprite :)

Okay thanks. I thought mixing the modes this way would speed up the game but it seems I was wrong. Seperating the body parts reminds me of a flash game I worked on! ;D

Quote from: sigh on 16:36, 10 December 10
Okay thanks. I thought mixing the modes this way would speed up the game but it seems I was wrong. Seperating the body parts reminds me of a flash game I worked on! ;D

I was thinking... If I could code some very simple programs, what would help to visualize the things we have talked about?

For example, I could do a program that showed the Renegade sized screen, I could also do a program the reproduced the mode split, and at the same time I could colour the border in a way so you can see where the split comes, so you can get an idea of the screen area you can work with.

I've done some programming examples before, so I could adapt these to help designers and artists like yourself to understand what the cpc can do and how you can work with it?

Would this kind of thing help?

I am not thinking of a complete development environment, but more a few programs you can run (on an emu or real machine) to see visually some of the things that have been talked about here.

Wow!!! I don't want to take up any of your time, but that would be wonderful. I could then have an idea of the area that the game will take place in, along with the area of the hud. Would you like to see the example sprites to know their size?:

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/8fafaa50bc.gif)

The colour palette is off for some reason and I think that it maybe an issue with my monitor calibration. Also, although the sprite is 13 colours, I think it may be showing 15 due to the background colour, as well as an extra shaded colour that shouldn't be there.

Sorry for the mess.

As you can see, I've started chopping the arms for re-use which then could be used as a composite.

Nice sprites :-) Athough the one in the middle looks a bit like a protesting professor!

Quote from: sigh on 13:14, 11 December 10
Would you like to see the example sprites

Your sprites look really good, and it's nice to see new graphic artists working on the CPC creating original stuff.

Quote from: Briggsy on 18:17, 11 December 10
Nice sprites :-) Athough the one in the middle looks a bit like a protesting professor!

He's in trafalgar square trying to get those student fees down!

I have a few more poses to finish before I start animating(being hit etc) which I'm really looking forward to. I'm hoping to get the poses all finished for next week. Pixeling him lying on the floor was a nightmare in wide pixels which was definitely the hardest sprite to get right for me. His face just kept looking unreadable like a piece of vomit.
After the kick anim is done, if I separate the arm on the uppercut and use the body as a frame before the kick, but have it after the "being hit" frame, it could probably work as a judo throw. I'll probably have to go back and do a lot of pixel tweaking for these composites to work and save as much ram as possible.

Were there any CPC 128k only games? I had a CPC 464 but it had a 64K memory expansion, with most of that extra memory only being used for loading the whole game at once or having music/sound (shinobi, Gryzor, Dragon Ninja). But there didn't seem to be any other sort of graphical extras if my memory serves me right...

Edit: Ahhh, I just found this:

"Most games and software targeted the 64K RAM 464 and 664 models. Only a handful of titles exclusively targeted the 128K machines"
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Amstrad_CPC_-_The_CPC_family/id/4790558

Yeah, the 128K only games were almost non existant... this was surely the shame of the CPC... designed as a 64K computer... but so heavy on graphics that it just doesn't work that well.


Pirates! from sid Meyer is a 128K only game.
Perhaps the only one as I recall...

but otherwise the extra 64K were just used as you said : to get extra sounds or single loading.

That's a real shame! I've been catching up on information regarding the amstrad specs and it's shocking that the extra 64k wasn't exploited.

I used to have a 6128 during my youth...
I share the feeling.

getting the game loaded once is not a big deal when you have a fast Disk Drive...
Getting games in more than 128K Datas and loading many times could have been so awesome.

But hey, 464 was the man. :'(

This explain why Speccy and C64 fanboyz tower the CPC as being humble and Lame... >:(
All a CPC needed was 128K and a fast Disk Drive to get well used.

Quote from: MacDeath on 07:43, 13 December 10

Getting games in more than 128K Datas and loading many times could have been so awesome.

This is EXACTLY what I want to do with this game.
6 more poses to do before I start animating. I think I will animate them all normally first, then go back and see what body parts I can re-use from the frames.

Edit: Did the normal cpc amstrad accept/register 2 button joypads (CPC+ 2 button joypad)? I can't remember....
Edit2: Okay - just read that it can use megadrive pads as long as there is an option for redefine keys to take advantage of the 2 button feature.

Yep because the second button is the Fire button for the second Joystick...


Will your game enable 2player co-op ?


Also your sprite looks quite good, but you have to remember when dealing with a CPC :
Palette is somewhat limited, and the 16 max colours is somewhat limited too.

Try to be sure your character will be quite differenciated from the background...


A character with more 14 colours is awesome, but sometimes when you put it on a background with a lot of details, this can get messy. (was just an example)


Your Sprite : I counted 11 colours only.
this can be quite good as it let you 4 more colours for opponents sprites, and these 4 + 1 colours for the full background.


It would also be quite suitable for a Bad Dudes vs. DragonNinja kind of game...



One of the main problem with the CPC : it has only one Grey.

So many games/graphists could not handle this properly, mixing the grey with odd colours.

Yes, it will be 2 player which is very important. I want to get the target renegade set up of 6 characters on screen - 2 player characters with 4 enemy characters.

Regarding the backgrounds, they will be detailed but using only 4 colours at the most to make sure that the sprites dont get lost in them.
(So the environment will use the black white, grey and another colour. It will make sense and should look good when I do the mock up:))

Perhaps you use a bit too much blue in your sprite...
If 2 player are to be, they should have quite some difference, Will it be the tshirt ? the Pants ? or simply a completly different design ?

Not every colours on CPC can display an as good gradient as the blue.

Green per example has almost 5 Greens but 4 of them are so similar...


Also remember that sprites are Softwired...getting them too big and too animated can be quite problematic despite having 128K ram...
The CPC has so many things to manage...


BTW good luck in your project.

With the 2 player mode, I was going to just change the jeans to green as that should be enough to dfferentiate the characters. The enemies, although using the same move set and body parts, will just have a head swap and colour changes (apart from the female enemies). Hopefully, this will save space.

Target renegade is an example of this, with the second player sporting a red shirt instead of an orange one. The enemies have head swaps and different colours:

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/897cf3ce2a.gif)

An example. There are 11 colours in this picture (the sprites are 10). The pixel placement is exactly the same, with the only things being changed are the values of the colour. So for player 2, all mid blue colour from player 1 will now be grey, all light blue colour from player 1 will now be yellow etc.

There are no introduction of new colours. The palette is the same on on each sprite :)

Good, you removed 1 colours (1 of the 4 blues)... and tried two kind of differenciations between both players.

Actually swaped the T-shirt and Pants inks... or used "monochromatic" ful sprites.
This seems good.

One point perhaps : the shadow...
what about simply use a dithering grid of black ?

I put your picture in my Paint.net...the colours are differently set (I used the Theoric values...)

on the one on the left I tried the lack-grid shadow (under the feets).

Of course getting one colour from the shadow to be swapped is also better to differenciate both players... but his may lead to unwanted effects too.



Also tried another way, just for the fun... hope you won't mind.
This is just in case this may help you or give you ideas, not to undermine your great job.

Green and blue.
But those sprites use less colours actually.

Remember that if your background is to be 4colours only (B&W&Grey+1 colours), to use too much the B&W&Grey on your sprite may lead it to mix/blend with the background...

On the other hand if you can free a bit more colours exclusively for the background, you may get the sprites more appart from it.

But it all depends the way you get your game run (the code/program) and/or the way you want it.

Thank you so much for the shadow idea! The dither shadow looks far better than the solid shadow I did.

The characters work very well against the grey as I made sure that it was one of the key things to get right. The green gradients and blue gradients you used as a test; I was planning on doing those for the enemy characters only as they will represent "gang" colours.
So one enemy might have a red shirt and white jeans, with the other enemy having white shirt with red jeans. This again would be planned out and coloured carefully so that only the values of the colours change and all there would be left to do are head swaps.

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/9811891ffe.gif)

Again, the picture above, the body has colour value changes - the head being the only difference which has been swapped. Also these sprites are on the grey background, but because the grey jeans has other colours like the yellow and dark red, it makes the character stand out. (I need to get my LCD colours fixed...).

So I think I'll be using this method as I want the game to run as fast and smooth as possible. I'm thinking that flick screen rather than scrolling would be best.
Regarding the backgroung colurs, I can use more colours higher up on the screen, where I know where the characters will not reach.

Are you planning to use a CPC specs or a PLUS specs ?

on the plus getting split screen/raster interrupt/so on is quite easier, and the 4096 colours choices are also quite interesting...(easier)

But it's a PLUS, not really a CPC (you may not have one...)...

Quote from: sigh on 17:55, 14 December 10
So I think I'll be using this method as I want the game to run as fast and smooth as possible. I'm thinking that flick screen rather than scrolling would be best.

That's music to any CPC programmer's ears, scrolling is a pain in the ar*e!

It's slightly easier on the Plus, but still a bit of a headache.  I love Plus programming mainly because so little was developed for them and the machine didn't have much of a chance to shine.

But classic CPC programming is the real challenge and what I admire the most  :)

I used to own a GX4000 but not anymore. I don't really know much about PLUS machines to be honest. My intention was to make use of the CPC 128k as that was very undervalued and squeeze out as much goodness as possible. However, I'm not going to be fussy if someone wants to do it on the PLUS, though I may want to add in extra content to see how much it could be pushed.

Okay. So far I have done poses for
duck,
grab,
knee,
stun,
hit,
hit into the air,
headbutt,
being held from behind,
being hit while being held from behind
Kicking while being held from behind

I have 6 more poses left to do before I start animating them and producing a mock up. The thing is, I've been catching up on the way sprites are used on the CPC and although this venture is more than possible, I'm a little concerned if I'm doing this the right way. From a programmers point of view, is there anything that you would recommend or I can do to make the programmers life a little easier, or should I just carry on, making the sprites as is and re using as many body parts that I can, as well as making it possible to use careful colouring so that values maybe changed, instead of creating whole new sprites.

What sort of sprite method is would be used for this type of game? From what I've read, it seems like compressed RLE software sprites, but I don't really understand all of it.

In short, I basically need to know what method and the best way for me to tailor the sprites for that method.

Quotebeing held from behind,
being hit while being held from behind

Am I the only one to see sex everywhere ? ::)


BTW... I'm not the most competent on the matter, But I think (it seems logical to me) that if you are to "craft" the sprites from multiple sub-sprites, this use less memory (RAM and Datas...) but shitton more CPU ressource...

Also as you may use software routine to reverse them (left to right...mirror effect) and other routines to recolor them (the inks)... and those are masked too.


Don't forget that if you want to use a 128K config with disk drive, you can easily add loadings between each levels, hence re-fill a new set of Datas.
So get some time to discard useless datas (musics and datas for the other levels... and so on...) and to pre-craft your sprites.

And a +64K can actually mean quite a good lot of Datas for a CPC...


As a result, if "constructing" the sprite is done in real time, this will be a pain for the CPU...

If those are pre-constructed when the game/level loads, you gain place on the disk... (usefull if your game is to be on a limited ROM per exemple...)

A full 320x200 of graphics (160x200 then for a Mode0...) is 16K of datas.
This can be quite a lot of sprites or Tiles...

Concerning tiles, perhaps only a few games 't used a full "screen" of tiles... and most individual levels don't...

16x16 tiles ? 10x12,5 grid of different tiles...rounded to 120 tiles := 16Ko.
Sprites are somewhat bigger but 32-48K may be more than enough to put a lot of them...

48+16 = 64K.
This let you perhaps 16K for the Video Ram and 48K for the codes and sounds and various stuffs.


So many great games actually used only 48K for all those.


Having a 128K config doesn't make an Arcade machine of a CPC.

But this enable to :
-Get more contents...of course.

-use less CPU time : many games were designed to run at 64K Tape config... thery had to decompress Datas when they used them...

exemple : Rick Dangerous : it load once ! the Datas for non actual level are compressed and decompressed as they are used.

This explains a lot : why levels were shorter (half from the 16bit ones), why there are not as many enemies sprites as on other versions (16bit)... no music nor cinematics, and so on.

With 128K (and an Amstrad PLUS) Fano managed to get it to the 16Bit level...

Yet almost no games did this.


As for the mirroring sprites : (getting them from left to right orientation per exemple...) : by "simply" doubling them (in both setting : left and right oriented) you save shirtton of CPU... sort of.



So it is up to you to define what strategy you will use.


You can perhaps compare :

=Double Dragon I

64k :
(http://www.cpc-power.com/images/ecran_jeu5/1150.png)

128K :
(http://www.cpc-power.com/images/ecran_jeu5/750.png)
                        Ok the graphic could have been better, lol...

Double Dragon II :

64K :
(http://www.cpc-power.com/images/ecran_jeu1/404.png)

128K :
(http://www.cpc-power.com/images/ecran_jeu1/751.png)

looks better perhaps...


=ESWAT

128K :
(http://www.cpc-power.com/images/ecran_jeu4/832.png)

64K :
(http://www.cpc-power.com/images/ecran_jeu3/832.png)


Those games had 2 versions each : 464 and 6128...
Those are the rare exemple of the actual difference from 64 to 128K.


There is also Final who need a 128K config :
(http://www.cpc-power.com/images/ecran_jeu1/875.png)


The 128K started to be used at the very end of the CPC carreer... because they had no choices, look at the size of those sprites (the games were a bit sluggish though...)

This will be a 128k only game with loadings and the images in my pevious post show that the sprite sizes are similar to renegade/target renegade size.

Hmmmm....I though I was being clever by spending a good amount of energy into making sure that crafting sprites would use less RAM not knowing that it would put pressure on the CPU. I think the best thing for me to do is to continue making the sprites by pieces, at least then the programmer can have the option of using pieces, or instruct me to put a pose/frame into a paint package and turn it into a full sprite which would only take a couple of seconds.

That way, the programmer can have more control on whether to use ram or cpu resources for certain animations. (I think... ??? ).

What I told you may not be true, it can depend  on a lot of other factors, mostly the "technological" choices in the code, and the way you manage the Datas, processings and loadings (level design too, gameplay too and so on...)

Remember that it is still an 8bit game.
No need to get 32 completely different opponents  and 512 tiles per levels...

And levels don't necessarily have to be gigantics... each pause between levels is a good occasion to get a new set of stuff (or re-customised stuffs...)
If the game is good, players won't mind the 30 seconds between each levels...
And remember the character's sprites remains the same from levels to levels... the basic sound effects too, and the HUD too (the part to display number of lives, scores and so on...) so you don't have te reload/reconstruct 128K between each levels or sub levels.


Many CPC games used to be slowpoke sluggish...
Oh yeah they could look good on still pictures in magazines, but when you played them, it wasn't that good...

The new tendency on CPC arcade-action games it to get them as smooth and fast as possible.
Play-Ability.

Just look at Dead On Time or StarSabre...


Playability is where it's at.

QuoteI think the best thing for me to do is to continue making the sprites by pieces

still a good way.

Takes less space on Disk perhaps, and also you can always rebuild them completely, it assures the design is good too.

Quote from: sigh on 02:05, 20 December 10
This will be a 128k only game with loadings and the images in my pevious post show that the sprite sizes are similar to renegade/target renegade size.

Hmmmm....I though I was being clever by spending a good amount of energy into making sure that crafting sprites would use less RAM not knowing that it would put pressure on the CPU. I think the best thing for me to do is to continue making the sprites by pieces, at least then the programmer can have the option of using pieces, or instruct me to put a pose/frame into a paint package and turn it into a full sprite which would only take a couple of seconds.

That way, the programmer can have more control on whether to use ram or cpu resources for certain animations. (I think... ??? ).

Making a game is always a fight between pressure on cpu, or pressure on ram.
Continue as you are doing...

I haven't had time to make those demo programs that I was going to do, I hope in a few days I may be able to do this.

Quote from: sigh on 02:05, 20 December 10
Hmmmm....I though I was being clever by spending a good amount of energy into making sure that crafting sprites would use less RAM not knowing that it would put pressure on the CPU.

It all depends really.

If using no compression then recycling sprite parts (arms etc) would be useful.  This would probably be okay on 128kb if there aren't too many characters etc - an easy way to find out is to remember that one screen is 16k in size so in a 128kb game if you you use the the extra 64kb to store graphics you could have 4 uncompressed screens worth.

If using some compression (such as RLE) then recycling sprite parts such as the arm of whatever could be useful, depends on whether the characters compress better as a whole or in parts.

If the programmer wants to store them as a 'delta' on each frame (i.e. you have a key frame for the sprite being usually the first, then store all the next frame as only the 'changes' between them) then recycling parts would be pretty pointless.

I'd just draw them as best you can and then let the programmer worry about how they would squash it all in  ;)

Quote from: redbox on 17:07, 20 December 10

an easy way to find out is to remember that one screen is 16k in size so in a 128kb game if you you use the the extra 64kb to store graphics you could have 4 uncompressed screens worth.

Could you elaborate on this? If the screen size of the play area is 160x200 - does that represent 16kb? If so, could I just place all the anim and sprites body parts and lay them out on a 160x200 area? I remember working on a mobile phone game where I had to lay out all the animation bits into a certain canvas size, which represented how many parts I could store for each character.

4bits per pixels (4bits = 16 values... hence 16 colours/inks...)

160 pixels per scanlines = 160x4 = 640 bits.
640bits x200 = 128000bits = 128Kb

but in Bytes/octets :
640bits = 80 Bytes
80x200 = 16000 = 16KB.


easy to remember : mode2 is 1 bit per pixel and 640x200...so 640Bitx200 = screen.

The bit flow is the same whatever the Video mode...
This explains why 160x200x16 = 320x200x4 = 640x200x2 = 16KB and represent the same surface on the screen.
and the wide-square-narrow ratios.


The Ram used by the standard screen is from &C000 to &FFFF... it is the fourth 16kB RAM chip... in central/main memory (not extra RAM banks.).

in this RAM bank, the display is as follow :

first KB : displays the first line (upper) of every characters.
2nd KB : second line...
And so on...

This means that to display a character (square 8x8 in mode1 per exemple) :

exemple : first character (upperleft of the screen)

one 8x8 character is 16bits (line) x8.

Each line for the same character is separated by 1KB on the memory map.





Is this that ?

Yesterday I spent the Day with my brother trying to teach me some Assembler concept.
We tried to get WinApe to display something by a direct writing in the RAM bank (Debugger/Assembler...) and found out the lines are sorted as I told.

That was even fun because I had to explain him that the display is done with an interrupt (not a real graphic card on those CPCs...), and tell him the size in memory of the Screen, the resolutions and Bit-per-Pixels and so on...


Also on another sidenote, we couldn't easily find a good CPCwiki page on the matter...


http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/8/8e/Mg_page26.jpg (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/8/8e/Mg_page26.jpg)

This for exemple is a scanned book page...

But getting 3 pages on the Memory, RAM and ROM could be great...

Also perhaps creating categories such as...
Essentials ?
Tutorials ?
Base concepts ???

Well stuff like "CPC and Codes for Beginner"...



MacDeath... starting to really learn codes... :'(

Back to topic :

QuoteIf so, could I just place all the anim and sprites body parts and lay them out on a 160x200 area?

It is called a "Sprite sheet" (or tile sheet... or tile map... or whatever...) :laugh:

But as I told you, the CPC don't see this as characters...it is not a character based computer like a Spectrum (Character attribute based).

So for a tutorial purpose/graphical method yes...
This enable you to check how much Data you graphics represent.

But Actually for the code/Computer it is more like a 128000bitsx8 picture, hence a  4000x8pixels (mode0) picture...(totalling 32000 4bit-pixels...)


Of course you, as a Graphist, don't really have to know/use that... but knowing this may ease you collaboration with your Coder (ease his pain...) as you may then give him suitably pre-coded/displayed/well-ordered DATAs...

(Hey Fano, que de souvenirs... ::) )


If you are working on a PC, remember that depending of your graphic application, you may get the wide pixels being managed or not.

on a "normal" graphic utilitary, we often use 2x1 pixels... but Graphix2 manage the square or wide display so 1 pixel is one pixel...


BTW some programs (I often use Paint.net) enable you to reduce the picture with the "close neightbour" (proche voisin) mode, That important or else the application would diter and antialias al the stuff... massacring your 16 colours only picture.

so if all your pixels are well "doubled" you get no artefact and a properly 160x200 sized picture...



Masking the sprites :
This is also important.
To mask a sprite, you can get a second grid in 1 bit per pixel (like a mode2 then) to check wheter it is a displayed pixel or not... the masked part or "transparency effect/colours.

Yet as you use a 16 colours (inks) mode0, it is better to use one inkthat is used on this purpose so yeah, your sprite graphics are 15 colours only (15 displayed inks) but you don't have to get a second set of 1bit coded sprites (the Mask...Spooking !).

Thanks MacDeath,
 
  I will definitely just continue as is and let the programmer decide on   how they want to use the pieces. It's taking longer this way, but is   probably the best option.
 
  I've now finished full animation of the Grab, knee and headbutt combo.
 
  I'm using paintshop pro for graphics and animations, but I also   downloaded CPC Paint as my lcd isn't displaying the correct colours,   making the amstrad palette a few shades out. I'll get the RGB numbers   from CPC Paint to put it right. Today I'll start planning the walk   cycle.

Quote from: sigh on 18:44, 20 December 10
Could you elaborate on this? If the screen size of the play area is 160x200 - does that represent 16kb? If so, could I just place all the anim and sprites body parts and lay them out on a 160x200 area? I remember working on a mobile phone game where I had to lay out all the animation bits into a certain canvas size, which represented how many parts I could store for each character.

MacDeath explained it in more detail, but yes you are right - one 160x200 MODE 0 screen is 16kb.  So you can lay out the sprites in this area as a 'sprite sheet'. 

It's also worth doing it for the backgrounds, especially if you're using tiles (which on the CPC are also just sprites really, but it's still best to work in this way as you can recycle lots of bits to make up huge levels) to make up the background.

If I remember well Rick Dangerous used a 4x4096 (mode0 pixels) picture for all the Tiles...

This is quite enough for designing 4 levels with quite different flavour, and rick dangerous is awesome looking...


With the multi-loading, you can really get awesome varied backgrounds, and even let yourselfe include a few unique elements (exemple : a statue....) if your animations are not to be too big...


An arena type boss fight (without all those various mook in the way) per exemple can get its own design...)


But of course what you put somewhere you must remove elsewhere...

If you want a shitton of variety in the sprites you may get a bit less detailled backgrounds...

Sprites tend to be a bit bigger and is actually a set of tiles, but often with a lot of unique tiles...
The bigger the sprites, and the more animation frames you get...or the more variety... then more part of the 128K is taken by those.


But well designed tiles can really enable a great array of constructs as those are like LEGO bricks...
And most of time the majority of the background's surface is composed of a few basic texture tiles...

If you want to design your levels, You should try Tiles Studio : it is not the only one of course but it is quite easy to handle and the Tile oriented stuff is just great to compose your stuff...

The good equilibrium between all those is the greatest and hardest achievement because... even with +64K RAM, it remains a poor Z80 doing all the work...

Great to see your experience will be usefull for others.You are true , CPC is not a complicated machine but we lack of articles for "total" beginners about CPC architecture.

Two or three little things (sorry about offtopic)

Quote from: MacDeath on 06:15, 21 December 10Each line for the same character is separated by 1KB on the memory map.

It is 2048 bytes (2K).It is often named "blocks".

Quote from: MacDeath on 06:15, 21 December 10That was even fun because I had to explain him that the display is done with an interrupt (not a real graphic card on those CPCs...), and tell him the size in memory of the Screen, the resolutions and Bit-per-Pixels and so on...

Not exactly , the CRTC+GA are used to display graphics like a graphic card.

Quote from: MacDeath on 06:15, 21 December 10But as I told you, the CPC don't see this as characters...it is not a character based computer like a Spectrum (Character attribute based).

Beware the CPC is close than Spectrum as you can imagine  ;) (CRTC "see" screen data as char array)

Quote from: MacDeath on 06:15, 21 December 10Of course you, as a Graphist, don't really have to know/use that... but knowing this may ease you collaboration with your Coder (ease his pain...) as you may then give him suitably pre-coded/displayed/well-ordered DATAs...

(Hey Fano, que de souvenirs... ::) )

Yes ,that was fun but not easy  ;)
My point is graphist needs to have a minimal knowledge of the hardware.CPC is not PC so this is needed to do some other work than pixelling (like writting program is not the only task for programmer).Some may not agree with my point but some tasks (like color reducing, adjusting palettes or cropping) are not the job of the programmer.
If i ask for a music , i don't expect a MP3 like when i ask for graphics i do not expect a 24bits RGB.

Quote from: MacDeath on 06:15, 21 December 10BTW some programs (I often use Paint.net) enable you to reduce the picture with the "close neightbour" (proche voisin) mode, That important or else the application would diter and antialias al the stuff... massacring your 16 colours only picture.

We already spoke about this , avoid absolutely (evil) programs that work internaly in RGB if you want to avoid theses problems.
About PSP , it is fine for 8bits indexed graphics but some export modules like PNG may remap palette (long time i didn't use it so that may have been fixed on recent version)

Quote from: redbox on 15:31, 21 December 10
MacDeath explained it in more detail, but yes you are right - one 160x200 MODE 0 screen is 16kb.  So you can lay out the sprites in this area as a 'sprite sheet'. 

It's also worth doing it for the backgrounds, especially if you're using tiles (which on the CPC are also just sprites really, but it's still best to work in this way as you can recycle lots of bits to make up huge levels) to make up the background.

Yes, i would say lay them out as a sheet, then both you and the programmer can see how they all work together.
Then the programmer can take the sheet, together with your instructions, and process it to generate the final binary data for the game.

For my games, the source gfx are 16-colour bitmaps. The tiles are put side-by-side in a horizontal strip.
I then use my tools to extract this and convert into binary data for the game.

Sprites are similarly done, where each frame is side by side and each sprite uses the same sized rectangle.
However, for some games, where free ram is a problem, the image can be processed so that the smallest
rectangle that fits the gfx can be used, and the width and height of this is stored. But, that can be done by a build tool.

I think the only time to really know exactly how much ram the sprites take up, is when the gfx have been converted into the final binary data, but making a sprite sheet you can estimate the space.

QuoteIt is 2048 bytes (2K).It is often named "blocks".

Ok... it is 2K instead of 1K...
ok ok ok my bad : 8 vertical pixels in a character... so 16k/8=2k... understood.

QuoteNot exactly , the CRTC+GA are used to display graphics like a graphic card.

But there's an intterrupt so the Z80 doesn't address to the Video Ram while it is displayed ?

QuoteBeware the CPC is close than Spectrum as you can imagine

Ok, but my point was that the pixels are not exactly displayed in the memory exactly as seen on the screen... well, are they ?

And I know the CPC is quite close to the Speccy.. :'( what a shame... all those speccy ports...

We have to chat a bit one of theses days, so You may explain this to me perhaps betterly... ;)

Quoteavoid absolutely (evil) programs that work internaly in RGB if you want to avoid theses problems.

That's why it mlay be good to re-process the pictures/source graphics with...Graphix2 per exemple... ::) once it is properly designed with a more modern stuff.

QuoteCPC is not a complicated machine but we lack of articles for "total" beginners about CPC architecture.

Major point...
An illustration of the Memory map with a good display and explanation of the Video RAM would be good...

Also : telling which exact chip on the Board is actually the RAM used for the Video ?

It is good to know where the physical stuff is...


or explaining in details some processthat occur...
Those are not always easy to comprehend if there is no graphic demonstration (I'm a Visual guy...)

a Drawing is sometimes better than 10000 words... ::)


If I recall well, the CPCtech.org files include pages like "run a program on a CPC for noob " and stuff like this...

Quote from: MacDeath on 18:33, 21 December 10But there's an intterrupt so the Z80 doesn't address to the Video Ram while it is displayed ?

This is not an interrupt in the technical meanning.GA activates /wait pin on Z80 but does not request an interruption.(some infos there : http://www.cpctech.org.uk/docs/instrtim.html (http://www.cpctech.org.uk/docs/instrtim.html))

Quote from: MacDeath on 18:33, 21 December 10Ok, but my point was that the pixels are not exactly displayed in the memory as seen on the screen... well, are they ?

this is correct.

Quote from: MacDeath on 18:33, 21 December 10We have to chat a bit one of theses days, so You may explain this to me perhaps betterly... ;)

No problemo mate  ;)

Quote from: MacDeath on 18:33, 21 December 10
An illustration of the Memory map with a good display and explanation of the Video RAM would be good...

About video Ram , you just need to understand one or two thing about the CRTC addressing.

There are a lot of jewels about Hardware on cpcwiki/grimware/cpctech/cpcrulez but that takes time to find them.

Okay. I've created a little test of the sprite sheet at 160x200 and it's looks like the main character animations are going to take up at least 2 of those - uncompressed without them being in pieces (this doesn't include the walk which will be re-used on all the sprites). Every pixel is like gold dust, so having a set rectangle for sprite sizes wont work. For instance, the uppercut takes up quite a bit of vertical space, with the fly kick taking up horizontal on the sprite sheet. I'll definitely have to have some of the frames constructed. I'll try and do it for arms and the head meaning that I'll try and keep the body and legs together. I presume contructing head + arms+body is less cpu stress than head+torso+leg+feet+arm.

The shadow that the characters cast should probably be a composite as well.

I'm thinking that 1 sheet could do for the background and another sheet for enemy sprites. which 4 sheets in total. To be honest - I'm wondering how I'm going to fit these unique bosses in. I could have game load the boss characters and have the player fight them in a different location as I would probably need an extra fight sheet just for the bosses. I would prefer if that didn't have to happen though...
I'm also going to remove the idle stance. It's extra frames for moves to come in and out of that pose - alhough it's fine for the headbutt.

At least the kick only has 2 frames!

long time ago I tried to get Bad Dude vs Dragonninja's sprites thanks to WinApe's search graphics option and it looks like your case...
Sprites come in different shapes and there is a lot of re-use of same pieces, but with different colours (legs per exemple...)

The player sprites may be more...more ... as they are always displayed they need more frames or more moves...

But I suppose the villains will get less moves... or more specific martial technics  so this could ease after all.


2 banks of 16K for the character ?is it for both players or for only one player ?
Did you doubled those (left/right) or not ?

Remember that you realisticaly cannot get the same amount of moves as a good old Arcade Doubledragon or the variety of a StreetRage3 (Sega megadrive) with3-4 different player characters.... because CPC is a "poor" 8 bit machine with no Co-processor, not that much memory and... well... all is done by software...

But hey, just design good graphics, and you'll see if this can be done as it is with your coder...
It may be possible to skip a few animation frames.
And yeah, some stuff can be -recontructed when used...


Can't wait to see your sprite sheets. ::)


A construction with Head +Legs+ torso&arms perhaps ?

Here is a construction of full whole sprites on a mode 0 sheet:

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/3355161d19.gif)

Here is a construction of the sprites in pieces:
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/15efb4998a.gif)

Here is an example of the headbutt pieces: (The middle two are unique. The rest are composite pieces)

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/75cf642c13.gif)

I think what I'll do is split the torso and legs in half. This way, the characters and enemies will all use the same legs. The torso, arms and head will be the only composites. When the sprite sheet is properly done I will be making them face all in one direction. Arnoldemu said that there was a conversion array used for mirroring the sprites in renegade so I would need something similar. This is for the main character - 2 player will be a copy with the colour values changed.
As Redbox said, I wont know how much space they take up until it's converted to the cpc format, but I will definitely need to have all the legs as composites. This is obvious in the other renegade games.

This looks good... congratulations. 8)

These look really good!!!

I tried to explain it simply because really the programmer should work to fit all the graphics in, but then again you don't want to have to re-draw anything because they are moaning about the size it etc  ;)

Ooooh niceeeeee

Hope everyone is having a wonderful holiday.

I'm still animating the main character in which the walk cycle, being hit animation (double dragon style so his head goes left and right) and falling onto the ground has be done. Today, I think I'll do the back kick as it's only one frame.

I've been investigating about what to do with the backgrounds, as I'm considering that smooth scrolling should be given a try for this game as all the previous renegades have been flick screen (I know I said that flick screen would be best - but the more I think about it...). I read this:

http://www.oldschool-gaming.com/view_article.php?art=map_compression

If smooth screen pixel scrolling were possible, which of these methods would be easier for the programmer to handle to get the desired results and why?

Quote from: sigh on 13:56, 28 December 10
I've been investigating about what to do with the backgrounds, as I'm considering that smooth scrolling should be given a try for this game as all the previous renegades have been flick screen

If smooth screen pixel scrolling were possible, which of these methods would be easier for the programmer to handle to get the desired results and why?

I wouldn't worry too much about this because a Renegade style of game doesn't really have a large playing area (maybe about 8 screens worth maximum?).

If you can design the background in tiles (16x16, or in MODE 0 it would be 8x16 because of the double pixels) and use one screen's worth of tiles (160x200) there would be 125 tiles, or 125 bytes.  125 * 8 screens is only 1000 bytes (or 1k) for the tile-maps.

It's the background graphic tiles you need to worry about, which is why I suggest you stick to one screen's worth (125 * 8x16 tiles) as it will then only come out at 16kb without compression.  Your game could be a multi-load so you could use this for every level you create.

Quote from: redbox on 15:20, 28 December 10
I wouldn't worry too much about this because a Renegade style of game doesn't really have a large playing area (maybe about 8 screens worth maximum?).

If you can design the background in tiles (16x16, or in MODE 0 it would be 8x16 because of the double pixels) and use one screen's worth of tiles (160x200) there would be 125 tiles, or 125 bytes.  125 * 8 screens is only 1000 bytes (or 1k) for the tile-maps.

It's the background graphic tiles you need to worry about, which is why I suggest you stick to one screen's worth (125 * 8x16 tiles) as it will then only come out at 16kb without compression.  Your game could be a multi-load so you could use this for every level you create.

I had a look at the target renegade screens and it flick scrolls 15 times on the 2nd level, but they are not "whole" screens that are being flicked, so your definitely right in that 8 screens is definitely more than enough, along with the multi load aspect of the game. Renegade only flicks 5 screens from beginning to end.

Here I have uploaded some code to show interrupt position and the effect of changing the vertical sync position:

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/source/intpos.asm

In relation to games:

The example shows the position of each interrupt on the CPC.
For games, it is much easier to change the mode or colours at the position of an interrupt because it doesn't waste CPU time waiting for an exact position on the screen.

By changing the vsync position, you can change the relative position of the visible part of the screen and also where the interrupts come. But then you end up with a picture shifted within the monitor display. You can get away with one char or so either up/down from the normal position.

To try this out in Winape:
1. Reset the emulated CPC
2. Open Winape's assembler
3. New assembler file
4. Copy and paste this code from the internet browser window into the assembler window
5. Assemble
6, Go back to emulated CPC and type at the BASIC prompt:

CALL &8000

You will see colours in the border and text.

If I have time I will do another example where you can change the dimensions of the screen (and it will report how much K this takes), and also a better grid or similar so you can measure things more easily on the screen.

http://cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php/topic,668.new.html#new

Here i posted some more source, it can be used in the same way. This one tries to demonstrate how the screen size and position can be changed and it's relation to the amount of ram used (note if hardware scrolling is used, the amount of ram will always be the same - either 16k or 32k for overscan).

Also note that if you expand the screen a lot, you will see the graphics repeating - you need to "activate overscan" to make it use up to 32k of ram.

For both of these examples, how can I make them better for artists to use?
Should I draw a grid or ruler?

I am thinking of doing an example with a mode split, so you can see how that fits in with the way the cpc works.

Both of these examples are fun to play with and also give a good idea of how the cpc works, and how the cpc screen can be setup for games.

Hello everyone and happy new year!

That's wonderful arnoldemu and I'm going to take a look today as I am going to be animating either the punches or throw (fly kick is done). I actually do still have my CPC464 with the 64k expansion tv and modulator connector - working fine and was found in the back of the wardrobe all wrapped up a few days ago. I honestly didn't realise I still had it. So I will type your code onto the 464.

I just executed those commands using winape (much faster than copying code onto real amstrad :)). I was able to move the screen using the cursor keys. Was I supposed to be able to change the height and width of it as well?

Quote from: sigh on 14:31, 01 January 11
I just executed those commands using winape (much faster than copying code onto real amstrad :) ). I was able to move the screen using the cursor keys. Was I supposed to be able to change the height and width of it as well?

Yes on the second example, hold down shift and use the cursor keys to change height and width.

EDIT: Hold down *CTRL* with cursors.

Quote from: arnoldemu on 21:58, 01 January 11
Yes on the second example, hold down shift and use the cursor keys to change height and width.

EDIT: Hold down *CTRL* with cursors.

Yup! I thought I was going crazy for a minute there.
On the "RAM used approx" if it says "&36B0" is that 36kb? (sorry if the answer to the question is obvious - this area is quite new to me).

Also, I was wondering if data can be loaded from a 3" disk, while the game is playing. (I remember some Amiga games doing this). I seperated some legs of the walk cycle at 5 frames each and laid them out on a mode 0 canvas. I have a feel that it may take up the whole canvas when I add in the fame for knees, head buts, flykick etc.

Quote from: sigh on 15:30, 02 January 11
Yup! I thought I was going crazy for a minute there.
On the "RAM used approx" if it says "&36B0" is that 36kb? (sorry if the answer to the question is obvious - this area is quite new to me).

That value is a hex number. &36b0 is 14000 in decimal. Then /1024 to get K (approx 14K).
  I can change the program to show the amount of K if that helps.
 

Quote from: sigh on 15:30, 02 January 11
Also, I was wondering if data can be loaded from a 3" disk, while the game is playing. (I remember some Amiga games doing this). I seperated some legs of the walk cycle at 5 frames each and laid them out on a mode 0 canvas. I have a feel that it may take up the whole canvas when I add in the fame for knees, head buts, flykick etc.

It isn't possible for the cpc to load while the game is playing. Loading from disc takes all the CPU time and requires very careful timing so this can't be done with a game.
On the Amiga it used DMA and interrupts to load so it could be done very easily with almost no CPU impact.

If the data is small you could load some data while playing but it would have to pause as it loaded the new data in.

Knight Force does something similar, as you approach the side of the screen, the disc motor is turned on, and as you leave the screen it loads new data, but there is a short delay when it does it.  So you could look at this as an example of what is possible. You may find that if it's 128k only you have enough ram free, and so loading is not needed within a level.

Quote from: arnoldemu on 15:38, 02 January 11
It isn't possible for the cpc to load while the game is playing.

Exactly, but the game could be multi-load as we discussed before.

If it's a 128kb game, remember that a 3" disc only holds 178kb (per side).  But you could always use compression and then decompress into the 128kb once the level is loaded and before gameplay starts (so you can make use of fast routines etc).

Just checked out the Knight Force by Xyphoe on youtube and witnessed what happened when you approached the side of the screen - definitely not what I want to see happening. That pause was around 5 seconds. Only way I could see this working is if I wanted to load new data for the bosses in which case the 5 second pause could happen while there is text on screen/speech bubbles between the player character and boss character. The boss character at the time of the speech would just be a still frame while the actual animation data is loading in within that 5 second window. That would help to disguise it.

(Still, no point in me worrying about that now while I still have the main character to complete.)

how are u going with this?

if nothing else this is interesting to me from a professional point of view :)

Steve

I've animated the punches and the back kick. I'll be animating the uppercut tomorrow. After that, I'll go onto the throw and the move when he pummels someone on the floor. These are the last troublesome ones! I really hope i can fit all the legs on one sheet 16kb sheet and all his torso/arms on another 16kb sheet.
This would leave 32KB for enemy torso's and weapons. 64KB.
I'm hoping that I can borrow another 32kb from the 128K for backgrounds and sound effects.

not wishing to rain on anyones parade, but have you taken into consideration the volume of data tables it will take in RAM to piece together all those bits of sprites?

i am not sure but you may find its more K's worth of X,Y and item data in tables plus cpu time to composite them back together again than its worth in what you are actually going to save.

i can easily see the point of making the legs "generic" and compositing torso and legs for different sprites (I have used this method for defining graphics on games i was involved in "back in the day"). I think you may be better off just doing that and maybe using compression (run length?) on the data.

whichever way you can make this work, i do wish you the very best of luck with it, i will keep watching because i really do like what you have designed so far.

Steve

Yes. I have been taking this in consideration and there's been quite a good few discussions this thread of RAM vs CPU processing. The thing is, it's hard to know much until it starts being developed. So from the points, help and suggestions given by programmers on this thread, I was told to carry on as is and sort out the problems as they come. So I will just aim to get the poses and rhythm of the animation looking good in the beginning,which will then be easier for me to make changes that the programmer wants. (I'm trying to be very "programmer" aware as much as possible.)

Okay. I have 6 more animations to complete:

Pummel enemy on floor.
Use weapon 1 (swing hit type - 4 frames).
Use weapon 2 (overhead hit type - 4 frames)
Block/Dodge (1 frame each)
Pick up object (2 frames)
Throw object (1 frame)

Once these are done, that will be the complete animation set for all the player characters and the enemies. (Apart from the boss sprites and female enemies)

This means that I hope to be starting the background tiles soon. I just wanted to ask what the consensus is on flipping tiles. As the tiles are sprites themselves, would that also need some sort of conversion array similar to the mirroring of sprites?

Quote from: sigh on 11:25, 08 January 11
Yes. I have been taking this in consideration and there's been quite a good few discussions this thread of RAM vs CPU processing. The thing is, it's hard to know much until it starts being developed. So from the points, help and suggestions given by programmers on this thread, I was told to carry on as is and sort out the problems as they come. So I will just aim to get the poses and rhythm of the animation looking good in the beginning,which will then be easier for me to make changes that the programmer wants. (I'm trying to be very "programmer" aware as much as possible.)

I'm very interested in this project too and would love to be the chosen one to develop the game.

Quote from: sigh on 22:48, 09 January 11
This means that I hope to be starting the background tiles soon. I just wanted to ask what the consensus is on flipping tiles. As the tiles are sprites themselves, would that also need some sort of conversion array similar to the mirroring of sprites?

Yes the tiles could be mirrored using the same array as the sprites.

Mirroring of tiles may actually use more CPU time and so it may be better to use more ram.

I would suggest that once you have the tiles made to use an existing map editor to create the maps.

@arnoldemu

Thanks! I could definitely do with help as I can't programming for toffee! Any other programmers to make the work load lighter are more than welcome.

Regarding the tiles; I'll avoid the need to flip or mirror them.

Just want to check that I wouldn't have to make sprites with the weapons attached to the torso's? This would act as a composite right?

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/1022893e7c.gif)

I think it might be better to have weapon only characters where when they are defeated, only then can you pick up the weapon. Not to sure how it's going to look when he's flykicking and back kicking while holding the weapon, but I'm sure one of those weapon frames will work.

I've also decided to scrap the "kick while being held" move. After animating and looking at it, it's pretty useless and a waste of ram space! Your more likely to want to shrug the enemy off than anything else.

Quote from: sigh on 00:28, 14 January 11
I've also decided to scrap the "kick while being held" move. After animating and looking at it, it's pretty useless and a waste of ram space! Your more likely to want to shrug the enemy off than anything else.

It's probably best to make as much graphics, moves and animation as possible so then the programmer can make the tough choices and cut out what isn't needed due to space later I would. If they have more to play with it might make a better end result as little tricks and shortcuts could be found here and there - who knows.

I really love those samples...

Just one note: in all the similar games I can remember right now, hit animation is like the one you have. Noone ever used a frame or two for the return of the character to his 'standing' position. So you have a great sequence up until the end of the move and then the hero/villain/prostitute/old man with a pool stick returns to the upright position rather abruptly... Maybe something to consider?

Quote from: sigh on 00:28, 14 January 11
Just want to check that I wouldn't have to make sprites with the weapons attached to the torso's? This would act as a composite right?

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/1022893e7c.gif)

I think it might be better to have weapon only characters where when they are defeated, only then can you pick up the weapon. Not to sure how it's going to look when he's flykicking and back kicking while holding the weapon, but I'm sure one of those weapon frames will work.

I've also decided to scrap the "kick while being held" move. After animating and looking at it, it's pretty useless and a waste of ram space! Your more likely to want to shrug the enemy off than anything else.

I would say do it as a composite for the weapons too exactly as you have done.

@Xyphoe: Yes your right. That's pretty much what I'm doing. I was just thinking that from a gameplay point of view, the kick while being held isn't really that much use. Especially considering that the players energy will be depleting while being held. You could kick in Double Dgragon, Renegade and Streets of Rage, but this was seldom done. So I would use that space for something else like adding an extra torso here and there to make some animations look smoother.

@Gryzor: Yes, this is very true and I too would love to have an extra frame for getting back to the idle position, because it does need it. Going back to what Xyphoe said, I will do that and leave it to the programmer. (I've just been getting more and more RAM concious through out!)

@arnoldemu: Looks like I'm on the right track with these weapon anims. Thanks!

Okay people, here is the list so far:

                                                   FRAMES                                     Animated
General anims for both
player and enemy.



Walk      (posed)                            5                                               Done     
Knee     (posed)                             4                                               Done
Headbutt (posed)                          4                                               Done
Duck/pick up/get up   (posed)        1                                               Done
Stun      (posed)                             1                                               Done
Punch     (posed)                            6                                               Done
Uppercut  (posed)                          3                                               Done
Kick      (posed)                              3                                               Done
Fly Kick  (posed)                             2                                               Done
KO        (posed)                              3                                               Done
Being Hit (posed)                           1                                               Done        (needs tweaking)     
Being Held(posed                           1                                               Done           
Behind Hold (posed)                      1                                               Done             
Behind Held (posed)                       1                                               Done             
Being hit while held  (posed)          2                                               Done                                       
Being Grabbed (posed)                   1                                               Done
Being hit while grabbed (posed)     1                                               Done
Grab       (posed)                             1                                               Done
Throw     (posed)                             4                                               Done
Floor Pummel                                   6                                               Done
Shrug                                               1                                               Done
Use weapon 1                                 5                                               Done
Use weapon 2                                 ?
Throw Object                                   ?
Pick up object                                  ?           
Block                                                1
Dodge                                              1

Enemy moves specific moves:

Front Kick                                        ?
Being Kneed (posed)                      2                                     (yet to finish)
Being Thrown                                 5                                          Done
Being floor pummelled                    2                                          Done

...so there's quite a bit there with a lot of compositing to do. These are very similar sets in frames to target renegade/renegade.

For the enemy females - I don't really feel comfortable about them being kneed or floor pummelled. I know those moves were executed in the previous games but I think I might go for something like this which is cheeky, questionable but could be amusing and less brutal. It's from a fighting game called "God Hand". What was interesting was that he had a different set of moves when performing hold moves on the women. When he held male enemies, he would knee them in the face - however, on females he would spank them!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEcGqaoKTjM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEcGqaoKTjM)

Kinky - but I would prefer this than the knee. I haven't though what to replace the floor pummel with yet.
Like in the previous games, there will be a level where you fight women only.

edit: The animation list - some of these moves have more frames like the flykick etc. That list is a bit old!

Quote from: sigh on 12:10, 14 January 11
For the enemy females - I don't really feel comfortable about them being kneed or floor pummelled. I know those moves were executed in the previous games but I think I might go for something like this which is cheeky, questionable but could be amusing and less brutal. It's from a fighting game called "God Hand". What was interesting was that he had a different set of moves when performing hold moves on the women. When he held male enemies, he would knee them in the face - however, on females he would spank them!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEcGqaoKTjM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEcGqaoKTjM)

Kinky - but I would prefer this than the knee. I haven't though what to replace the floor pummel with yet.
Like in the previous games, there will be a level where you fight women only.

Haha! .. a bit sexist ... I did laugh though!

You know that does make me think that maybe the injection of humour and strange/new/funny moves and attacks could separate this from all the other bog-standard fighters. Why not make it as rediculous as possible - might generate more interest? Putting my 'marketing' hat on, often more shocking and attention/news grabbing things might attract interest from people not normally playing CPC games. Or make it very gory! LOL

Glad you laughed! Yes...a bit sexist and kinky but feels preferable than kneeing! I'm not to keen on the gore idea. I wanted the enemies to just be KO'd when defeated with stars around their head and then disappearing/running away rather than them dying (then disappearing...).
I don't want it to be too ridiculous as saturating the game with novelty funny moves, loses flavour pretty quickly. Seeing as the females have a humourous move, I may do one humourous move for the guys. I haven't designed the bosses yet so there could be something to play with, but I would keep it very minimal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPkRaXfARDk

Little tid bit: While watching Renegade - I noticed that the Boss only comes on when there is only 1 type of enemy on screen on the first 2 levels. This means that you would never get a weapon guy + a non weapon guy + the boss on the same screen at the same time. But you will get 2 non weapon guys + boss, or 2 weapon guys + boss. On the third level however, you do get 2 different type and the boss, but I think that's because on the last level, there are only two types of enemies; knife wielders and the boss.

Been busy the last 2 weeks and only managed to get the block and dodge done. Managed to get the holding pose of lifting an object, which is currently a metal box. Still need to animate the actual picking up and throwing. Oh - and also the last overhead weapon animations. I'm thinking that at a later date, I may have to jig the colours around on the main character and give him a brighter jacket, but I'll see what happens when I start the backgounds.

Okay - back to (real life) work!

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/c1ee89331c.gif)

The actual box flying through the air animation I assume would be handled by code?
All the animation for the main character is now done. I'd like to get some sort of special move in that involves holding down the fire button and releasing. Maybe use the uppercut for that. Now I need to trace all the torso's for the enemies moves (well not all of them as they wont be floor pummeling or kneeing etc. Hoping that I'll get to have that done sometime next week.

Edit: Doh! I forgot I need to do the seperate attack move against the females. I'll leave them out for now and tackle those later....

I'm worried about the current colour of the character. I have a feeling that he could get a little lost in the backgrounds, so I'm going to brighten him up a bit:
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/b8ae8f1f0f.gif)

...and here's an example of a special moving involving holding down the fire button and releasing:
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/c631d8636d.gif)
I've animated three of these. The top one is when your holding a character. A different move is performed when a character is stunned and another different move is executed when just doing the move normally. All these are made up from different parts.

All the legs fit onto a 160x200 sheet with maybe 3 spaces to spare.

Now it's time for some enemy torso designs:)

Edit: Torso's for main character takes 1 sheet and a half...

Both the sprites and animation are first-class mate, I really love your work. This must be a very slow case of trial and error...

Regarding the character's color: keep in mind that he needs to look baaaaad, so dark colors like brown or black look better than pink or yellow...

That said, imagine the poor speccy folks with their "high-res" color clashing :D

Quote from: Gryzor on 12:00, 06 February 11
Regarding the character's color: keep in mind that he needs to look baaaaad, so dark colors like brown or black look better than pink or yellow...

...this is what my sister said and likes the leather look far more, so I'm just going to leave it as is and just make sure that the bottom of the backgrounds wont use much dark colours such as brown, black, dark blue etc. I'll stick to the lighter colours for those areas. (That yellow jacket does look rather weak come to think of it...)

(http://www.ohlalaparis.com/photos/uncategorized/stade_francais_pink.jpg)
Pink is actually a badass colour...
;D

...looks like Macdeath already found the secret mode!
 
  On another note, I've used 4 mode 0 sheets (64k) for all character   sprites including the enemy and weapons. Although the enemy designs   aren't completed yet, I just copied the torso and leg parts that some of   the enemies may be using, just to get an idea of how much space they   may take up. (I know I keep refering back to this point). I'm trying to   squeeze in a large torso character similar to Abobo in Double Dragon but   with fewer moves - if there is space. You wouldn't be able to grab or   floor pummel that enemy type. However, if it's going to have to go on   another sheet, I would scrap the idea and use what ever is left on the 4   mode 0 sheets for special effects like dust, swoosh lines, sparks etc.

Finished 2 enemy designs for the animation demo. In the middle of designing the big guy character, then will move on to design the first level boss. Designing the guys got me thinking on how they will appear on screen which also led to the question on scrolling. I know it's a talked to death topic, but it's usually in the form of shootem up games. I've been searching for CPC non shootem up games with smoother pixel scrolling. Double Dragon and Dragon ninja look as though they are scrolling at 4 pixels(though I could be wrong). Are there any examples of non shootem up games that scroll in 1or 2 pixels other than Tribute to Giana Sisters and the Contra demo?

Thanks

But.... show us, man!!!

Quote from: Gryzor on 09:30, 11 February 11
But.... show us, man!!!

There you go:

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/daa14126b7.gif)

These are all the enemies for the first level apart from the boss that I haven't designed yet and 12 colours are being used so far. For the larger character I'm undecided whether to use the white vest version or the bare chested version....

Edit: I tried to employ the pallete swapping idea to save on sprite space, but it left the sprites with little style or character. They need to look cool rather than just generic and I always felt that the renegade games did this well. I never really liked the enemies on games such as Streets of Rage or Cadillac Dinosaurs (apart from the boss characters) as some of them felt a little out of place at times (such as the jugglers on Streets of Rage.)

The bare-chested version looks kind of greenish. Better go with th whit vest one :) If we had more pixes to toy around with I'd tell you to add a Speccy logo on his shirt :)

Quote from: Gryzor on 13:48, 11 February 11
The bare-chested version looks kind of greenish. Better go with th whit vest one :) If we had more pixes to toy around with I'd tell you to add a Speccy logo on his shirt :)

Here's the final update:

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/a4d94c8367.gif)

Giving them all mohawk hairstyles gives a better feeling of them being connected to the same gang. Any answers to the scrolling question?
There are going to be 6 levels and I have these gang types in mind in the following order:

1) Mohawk punk gang
2) Football shirt wearing gang
3) Hoodie wearing, moped riding gang
4) Female gang
5) Mask wearing gang
6) Suited gang

Quote from: sigh on 16:38, 11 February 11
Any answers to the scrolling question?

It's possible, but it depends on whether your coder wants to take the task on or not - and that in turn depends on a lot of aspects regarding the rest of the game engine...

The graphics are looking great btw, would love to see some mock-ups with the backgrounds when they're ready.

Quote from: redbox on 18:41, 11 February 11
It's possible, but it depends on whether your coder wants to take the task on or not - and that in turn depends on a lot of aspects regarding the rest of the game engine...

The graphics are looking great btw, would love to see some mock-ups with the backgrounds when they're ready.

I probably didn't explain myself properly regarding the scrolling question. The question was refering to examples of smooth scrolling non shoot em up games that are already out there(youtube etc). I've been away from the CPC scene for a good while and wanted to know and see more examples of these games (not demos).

I'll be producing the animated mock up demo soon after I've animated the first level characters and background tiles.

Cheers!

Quote from: sigh on 16:38, 11 February 11
Any answers to the scrolling question?

Looking at Dragon Ninja, it is 2 pixel scrolling.  Another example of reasonably good 2 pixel push scrolling would be Stormlord I guess.  Some sluggish examples would be Beyond the Ice Palace and Ninja Spirit.  The first stage of Dark Fusion is a platform shooter push scrolling that is quite smooth when the action is light.  I suspect none of these games have the sprite size and count you are after though.


The Contra & Sisters games use hardware 2 pixel scrolling to my knowledge, not used much.  Examples of that in platform games would be Super Cauldron and Ghouls'n'Ghosts.  GnG isnt a helpful example as it sacrifices colour for speed.  Super Cauldron (and Prehistorik 2) both have nice smooth 2 pixel hardware scrolls, but their sprites update at significantly lower rates.  And they all use 'surge scrolling' as the scroll would be too fast otherwise.  Again, none of these games have the kind of sprite size and count you'd be looking at, I think?

Quote from: Axelay on 11:14, 12 February 11

Looking at Dragon Ninja, it is 2 pixel scrolling.  Another example of reasonably good 2 pixel push scrolling would be Stormlord I guess.  Some sluggish examples would be Beyond the Ice Palace and Ninja Spirit.  The first stage of Dark Fusion is a platform shooter push scrolling that is quite smooth when the action is light.  I suspect none of these games have the sprite size and count you are after though.


The Contra & Sisters games use hardware 2 pixel scrolling to my knowledge, not used much.  Examples of that in platform games would be Super Cauldron and Ghouls'n'Ghosts.  GnG isnt a helpful example as it sacrifices colour for speed.  Super Cauldron (and Prehistorik 2) both have nice smooth 2 pixel hardware scrolls, but their sprites update at significantly lower rates.  And they all use 'surge scrolling' as the scroll would be too fast otherwise.  Again, none of these games have the kind of sprite size and count you'd be looking at, I think?

Thank you very much for those examples. Prehistoric 2 and the Ghouls n Ghost use the push scrolling which I would like to avoid for this type of game. The Stormlord and Dark Fusion looks nice, but your right about the sprite sizes as they are smaller. My sprite count in 2 player mode will be 6 on screen at once like the other renegade games (any less than that and it wont be very challenging.)
I couldn't find Ninja Scroll and can't remeber how it looked. Beyond the Ice Palace didn't look as smooth as Stormlord.

I found a very small clip of Super Couldron on one of Xyphoe "Amstrad CPC" horror games. That's a very interesting one as it seems to push scroll horizontally, but scrolls normally when going vertical. With these type of beat em up games, they usually scroll for a bit and then fight in a designated area, so it's not continuously scrolling like a platform games, so it's quite a start and stop affair. But the area they are fighting in is roughly the size of the last picture I posted, while the stormlord area seems bigger making the whole affair look smoother I presume? A tiny bit of vertical scrolling would be nice, but not crucial.

Got me thinking.

When I do the animated demo, I'll make each with 1 pixel scrolling and 2 pixel scrolling.

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/2020250a96.gif)

Example of what I'm going for background wise. It's unfinished(alleyway and inner background etc). Need to learn about tiling and optimizing tiles as I doubt very little of this would tile efficiently, but needed to make sure that the sprites wouldn't get lost. Tiling would be 8 pixels wide and 16 pixels down.

Lot's to learn...

Edit: I need 8 screens worth or tiles for the scrolling. I take it that   it would be best for me to rough out the whole level 8 screens wide?

Not bad isometric is so cool in mode

But If I may give some personnal view

mixing the CPC grey (only one) with the other pseudo greys (Dark cyan, green, darkyellow) is not a good idea

To me it is better to "mix" the Grey (the real one) only with Black, White and perhaps a dark or light colour, but no other colour on the same lvl as the Grey.

(http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/e/e8/Palette_CPC_gradiants.png)

see the upper 3x3 grids ?
the one on the middle with grey, darkyellow, darkcyan, darkgreen, pink, Orange and so on...(2 odd blues/purple...)
this is simple, all those colours are to not be mixed with the Grey (the one in the center of the 3x3matrix)

because those colours are at the same "level"... they are oloured greys... sort of.

This is the only default of the CPC palette... only one real grey.


There I tried a different colours scheme but I agree the picture you posted was a stub...
Background tiles are not refined nor finished...

Just hope it will help you...
Grey is a hard colour to us on CPC while it is the "only" colour onb C64... sort of...lol...


That's why it is so "easy" to develop graphics on Amstrad PLUS... well not really, but far more comfortable...

Thanks for the picture edit! I was told by another person to use the browns and orange on the backgrounds, but as I suspected the sprites no longer "pop" out of the background, which just makes everything to bold. The colours I have chosen are meant to show a balance of contrast against the boldness of the sprites, but I think the problem is that I haven't used those colours correctly for the brick work. I do believe that you can mix those colours that are on similar levels, but I just haven't mixed them well enough. Also, with the still picture posted - it would be at least 3 times bigger than that.

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/166490f752.gif)

...and before I go any further I need to type in the correct RGB numbers for this CPC palette!!!
Anyway - I'm partial to the subdued brick work on the right.....

MacDeath - on the contrary, for subtle highlights in the background, you should use the colours around the grey. I prefer sigh's mockup - the characters stand out whilst the background is still interesting and gritty. We're aiming for inner-city here, not Dynamite Dux.


Although I do wonder how all these screens of graphics will fit into memory!

I'm inclined to agree with MacDeath. For subtle highlights you might get away with it, but when the entire backdrop is like that it just looks like one big smear and I suspect will only look worse on an actual CPC monitor. It's a nice idea in theory, but the standard palette just doesn't lend itself to that effect. The best you'll manage is to use darker colours for the background and brighter colours for the sprites, although that may not give you a good selection of colours for the look you want for the sprites.

I'm going for the blue version for this level. I think it looks nice and after I add in the other details like cracks, wall damage tiles,and more bits of graffiti on the wall itself, along with some different coloured brick tiles, it should feel a lot more organic.

So far there are 16 brick tiles at 8X16 and 5 pavement tiles 8x16. 21 tiles in total. WIll probably add another 10 brick variations and another 5 pavement variations. The road (the main section where most of the battle will take place will probably be another 5. I'll also add 3 tile cracks/road damage tiles.

Not to sure what I'm going to do for inner alleyway background. I'll need to do some windows doors and shutter variations to break up the scene.

Quote from: Briggsy on 18:25, 13 February 11
MacDeath - on the contrary, for subtle highlights in the background, you should use the colours around the grey. I prefer sigh's mockup - the characters stand out whilst the background is still interesting and gritty. We're aiming for inner-city here, not Dynamite Dux.


Although I do wonder how all these screens of graphics will fit into memory!

As everything is tile based, a 125 tiles fit on a 16KB 160x200 sheet. All the animation sprites weapons and enemies are on a 64KB sheet which may actually be smaller as it's not using the whole sheet per se as there are lots of gaps in it (though I have no idea how many KB would be saved.) I'm going to try and get this finished this week.

Take a look at Grell and Falla this uses hardware scrolling, but I don't think it's push scroll as seen in others like Prehistorik 2.

Quoteon the contrary, for subtle highlights in the background, you should use   the colours around the grey. I prefer sigh's mockup - the characters   stand out whilst the background is still interesting and gritty. We're   aiming for inner-city here, not Dynamite Dux.

Yes, but take the exemple of the street tiles...
only grey and darkcyan : no contrast, and not the dark and gritty feeling.

you can of course mix DarkCyan and grey if you want, but need to put some black too... and perhaps a few dots of pseudo white (very light yellow, green or cyan...)

Quote from: arnoldemu on 09:39, 14 February 11
Take a look at Grell and Falla this uses hardware scrolling, but I don't think it's push scroll as seen in others like Prehistorik 2.

Thanks. I'll have a look at those.

Quote from: MacDeath on 12:05, 14 February 11
Yes, but take the exemple of the street tiles...
only grey and darkcyan : no contrast, and not the dark and gritty feeling.

you can of course mix DarkCyan and grey if you want, but need to put some black too... and perhaps a few dots of pseudo white (very light yellow, green or cyan...)

Just received help from a fanastic artist (Helm). Will post an updated version soon.

An unfinished update:
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/cf952241c5.gif)

The artist Helm, had previously edited another scene that I attempted where I replaced the bricks with something more defined. He edited it using an oldschool comic ink style which I just loved. So I've been working on top of it ever since. It's unfinished and I need to dig out some of my old comic books as I need to do something with the pavement, the alleyway and the road they are fighting on. The theme for the backgrounds in this game where becoming very tricky for me so I can't thank this guy enough.

(...and these are also the correct colours)

Quote from: sigh on 02:44, 15 February 11
An unfinished update:

Awesome  :)

You're right about the road and alleyway, but apart from that it looks great and I love the colours.

This looks clearly better and even quite good actually...
You got rid of the green and darkyellows...

Blues are clearly the best part of the CPC palette... (blues and cyans and purples...)

Good job, and good luck on you !

I hope this project will be completed one day... ;)


perhaps a good modern "old-school flavoured" thing that may be o f some inspiration...

Scott Pilgrim"s beat'hem up game...

(http://gameaxis.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/scott-pilgrim-game02.jpg)

(http://a.onionstatic.com/images/media/game/711/scott-pilgrim_game_jpg_627x325_crop_upscale_q85.jpg)

(http://www.gameinformer.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Components-ImageFileViewer/CommunityServer-Blogs-Components-WeblogFiles-00-00-00-84-21/1018.spmain.jpg_2D00_610x0.jpg)

(http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/111/1110212/scott-pilgrim-vs-the-world-the-game-20100803023335118_640w.jpg)

Of course as it is on modern computer his is a state of the art in the matter... with a virtually unlimited supply in sprites and tiles...
And far more colours to choose from... :'(
That's also why I love the Amstrad PLUS...


There I did another slight edit...

Trousers with more black, so it looks like leather and you can be sure it won't blur into the background...
and street in Grey and black only...

but concerning this, the Asphalt...

Perhaps you should get the same recipe as used in scott pilgrims...
getting far less texture...


so a Grey only asphalt with a few tiles of... scratches, cracks or gravels... here and there
Also the

A "Chaotic" display of such tiles is better...

so you don't get the repeatitive and too regular aspect in the texture..

Also Pedestrian crossing and road markings...Puddles of water/sewer...

Dog's shit ?

I don't know in your country but in France we have a lot of Dog's shit in the street...

Thanks but there is far too much black being abused in that pic. The black on the road is far too much and "in your face" and really needs to be as less potent so  it looks less confusing. It needs a far lighter colours I also need to keep those sprites lighter than the background, which is why I only want the backgrounds with the ink styling and definitely not the sprites, so the black on the jeans are a "no, no".

As much as I enjoyed playing the Scott Pilgrim game, the graphical style doesn't do much for me as I really dislike that type of anime art, so it's not the best reference to chose. I'll be flicking through some old 80's comics as these backgrounds need the correct type of detail.

I just love MacDeath's suggestions... they are more mainstream but they do look great... But of course you'd have to have variety in different levels, so that's a great challenge!

Quote from: MacDeath on 10:08, 15 February 11
Of course as it is on modern computer his is a state of the art in the matter... with a virtually unlimited supply in sprites and tiles...
And far more colours to choose from... :'(
That's also why I love the Amstrad PLUS...

Unlimited sprites on the plus? keep dreaming

Some graphics ideas:


Options for the alleyway - bins or dumpster. Newspaper pages blown against walls. Chainlink fence in background (with city skyscrapers beyond and a sunset for some colour where characters don't appear). Burned out car!


Options for road - double yellow lines. Pedestrian crossings. Drain covers. Manhole covers. Just wish the CPC had a darker grey to use here for the tarmac...


Other 'flair' - signposts (no parking, fine for dog mess, etc), lamp posts.

The latest update: Not to sure how I'm going to optimize the crack tiles yet...

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/f646b746d5.gif)

Quote from: Briggsy on 18:48, 15 February 11
Some graphics ideas:


Options for the alleyway - bins or dumpster. Newspaper pages blown against walls. Chainlink fence in background (with city skyscrapers beyond and a sunset for some colour where characters don't appear). Burned out car!


Options for road - double yellow lines. Pedestrian crossings. Drain covers. Manhole covers. Just wish the CPC had a darker grey to use here for the tarmac...


Other 'flair' - signposts (no parking, fine for dog mess, etc), lamp posts.

It's tricky to fit al those in as I only have one sheet to use and they have to be tileable. I've been playing with the double yellow lines, but again they were just too bold. I made them the light purple and it seemed a bit easier on the eyes - double purple lines! Drain covers are good as they dont take much tile space, but the zebra crossing I'll save for another level. (no need to squeeze everything in one screen or level)

I'm need to be careful as to not to clutter the alleyway as that area shouldn't be very detailed or it will look too repetitive if the objects are too strong. (seeing stair steps is less repetitive than seeing a burnt out car again and again.) However, it would be nice to add something like that on the last screen.

Lampost and signs - are things I'm doing for the next screen which I'm going to start planning today or tomorrow.

Quote from: sigh on 19:39, 15 February 11
The latest update: Not to sure how I'm going to optimize the crack tiles yet...

I think the alleyway looks really great - murky and dark, just as it should be.

The cracks in the road don't look like they follow the isometric form though, they just look like the run straight along and down.  Not sure how this would be sorted though?

Quote from: redbox on 20:07, 15 February 11
I think the alleyway looks really great - murky and dark, just as it should be.

The cracks in the road don't look like they follow the isometric form though, they just look like the run straight along and down.  Not sure how this would be sorted though?

Cracks are pretty random in themselves. There will be different lengths, sizes and shapes so it should be okay.

Some new ground damage ideas for the next screen:

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/6ff9176062.gif)

Going to chop up this screen into the rest of the tiles.

Perhaps you could put holes in the road that characters could fall into, and the characters ought to trip on the cracks in the road as well.

Quote from: steve on 14:57, 16 February 11
Perhaps you could put holes in the road that characters could fall into, and the characters ought to trip on the cracks in the road as well.

Holes are nice - like the bit in double dragon, though not for this level. No point wasting sprite space for trip animations.

I love your art, sigh.

Keep up the good work. :)

@viddi - Thanks!

I've been trying to optimize the background tiles and have had to cut down on the shutter texture, road and pavement (if there's space left I'll add them back in). It's around 84 tiles(8x16) for this screen and takes up around 1/3 of a 160x200 sheet:

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/41bcc22b62.gif)

I can make different length shutters and windows out of these. Next screen will have a sign, lampost, door(re-usable) and a non re-usable poster. These should probably take 2 rows of tile space. I've never done tiling before and it's a very back and forth process.

QuoteUnlimited sprites on the plus? keep dreaming

Was talking about the palette, 4096 enables a great choice in greys per example... :D

But i also love the challenge to compose on the CPC old palette.


BTW your new Asphalt is incredibly better...

go on keep the good work ! :)


But I continue to tell that you should use a few dots of black (a few...) for the texture in addition to dark cyan.

Not as many as I put in the past mockup (with the old asphalt texure...)
Just a few dots...

There...
those are exemples...
But I must Admit I did it fast, would need to be done more seriously (the black dots on the mockup are done randomly...

also added few Black dots in the brickwall... this adds shadows so more contrast.



just suggestions of course.

The greatness of CPC : no colour attributes... so no limitations  per charazcters compaired to c64...
You can place your 16 inks everywhere you want...

one well placed dot/pixel can make the difference.

Those black dots still dont work. If you were to blow up the picture to 300% they look very distracting in my opinion and just looks like noise. The cracks are are enough and with the black dots peppered all over the road, again they're just screaming at you. Apart from the cracks, I want the black to only be used in the background only as you get more of a light to dark effect(light foreground to dark background)

For the bricks, I wouldn't use the black in that way. I would use them to differentiate between the height and depth of the bricks which I already have done (bottom right corner). Placing the pixels in the middle of the bricks doesn't give it any more contrast, but making the the black go around the bricks will break up the tiling a bit( however, I know that you did this quickly.)

With the backgrounds on ink styling, you can't overwork them as there's going to be a lot happening when your actually playing the game.

Edit: Attempting to draw an estate in black and blue for screen 3 with as little as 10 pieces.

hello. i am still watching this one ;)

my advice would be to keep the road fairly bland and just do what you are doing with the cracks. you do not have the luxury of defining spurious numbers of tiles and filling RAM to create "random" looking road detail with dots (this is where character based screen displays tend to win out).

added to the fact that without a darker grey at 2:1 res they do look bloody awful. and please don't resort to a repeating tile pattern which i have also seen suggested on here :) .

you could however add a bit more "street" detail with:

puddles, drains, drainpipes up the side of the buildings, fire escape ladders, newspapers/litter, bins, manhole covers, and if you really want to chuck in a splash of colour....Coke cans.

if you have tile space you could also add things like a street basketball court with chainlink fence etc.

indeed, if you need inspiration (and can search for and download torrents) i would advise watching a couple of movies "the wanderers (1979)" and especially "the warriors (1979)" which would be just what u need to get the juices flowing (fights in parks, streets, trains, even public toilets :) )

best of luck

Steve

Yeah - there wont be any repeating patterns. I can make different cracks with the tiles I have. Also with the peppered light green/cyan tiles,  I can vary it quite a bit due to the fact that I have a tile that is just plain grey with nothing on it. I can mix that with odd peppered bits here and there.

The inspiration is from the buildings around me and different parts of the city that I'm living in so there is an abundance of things that I can mix match from looking at those. The street I'm living on for instance - just further down the road is a disused power station in the background. There's also some heavy road works going on and a sprawling estate along with a skateboard/BMX park, which would be nice to get in.

Okay. Everything seems to be going fine apart from one thing that I'm a little confused about. I've been told by some artits that my tile sheet of 160x200 (the one I posted) is actually 80x200 pixels as widepixel is technically a single pixel as far as storage is concerned. I'm a little confused as that would mean I actually have twice as much space than I realized.

Is this true? Shall I just carry on as is? Would this be a programming problem (although I'm sure I would of been told by now...)

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/3724bd639b.gif)

Edit: Imported this into "Mappy Editor" and everything looks as it should be.

Quote from: sigh on 22:51, 20 February 11
Okay. Everything seems to be going fine apart from one thing that I'm a little confused about. I've been told by some artits that my tile sheet of 160x200 (the one I posted) is actually 80x200 pixels as widepixel is technically a single pixel as far as storage is concerned. I'm a little confused as that would mean I actually have twice as much space than I realized.

Yes, it is true. Mode 0 on the CPC is 160x200 but the aspect ratio means that pixels are twice as wide as they are high. It's not a problem for your graphics as you're clearly taking that into account, but it does mean that a full screen should be 320x200 'square' pixels wide to end up with the equivalent amount of 'fat' pixels on it.
I shouldn't worry too much about it though, as whatever process is used to convert the images to the CPC can easily accomodate rearranging the tiles in memory in whatever way is most suitable for the code.

Quote from: andycadley on 03:56, 21 February 11
Yes, it is true. Mode 0 on the CPC is 160x200 but the aspect ratio means that pixels are twice as wide as they are high. It's not a problem for your graphics as you're clearly taking that into account, but it does mean that a full screen should be 320x200 'square' pixels wide to end up with the equivalent amount of 'fat' pixels on it.
I shouldn't worry too much about it though, as whatever process is used to convert the images to the CPC can easily accomodate rearranging the tiles in memory in whatever way is most suitable for the code.

I'm going to ask a silly question here, but does that mean I can/could actually have more animation along with more background graphic tiles without stressing so much about RAM space? If so, then I'm going to add a female playable character in the game. It will also mean that I wont have to compromise the backgrounds so much when making things tileable.

Hi sigh.

Love your work with those sprites and backgrounds. Absolutely stunning.

Just to clarify, a full mode 0 screen (160x200) takes up 16K of RAM.
It's not 80x200 pixels, but 80x200 bytes. Mode 0 has 2 pixels per byte.

You'd probably get more useful info from more experienced coders around these parts, but I just wanted to clear up that point.

Keep up the excellent work!

Quote from: sigh on 11:29, 21 February 11
I'm going to ask a silly question here, but does that mean I can/could actually have more animation along with more background graphic tiles without stressing so much about RAM space? If so, then I'm going to add a female playable character in the game. It will also mean that I wont have to compromise the backgrounds so much when making things tileable.

Well the tilemap you posted previously would've required 8K in total, if you were assuming that was going to need 16K then you have twice as much RAM as you thought.

So that whole area of the tile map I posted is only 8kb.

So all this time when I've been creating canvas sizes in the art package of 160x200 and placing the tiles and sprite animations(legs/torso) thinking that because 160x200 is 16kb - that was what I had filled up, when in fact I've only used 8kb.
For instance, I have 4 sheets for the sprites and 1 for the background. In my mind I thought I had used 80 Kb, when in fact it looks like I've only used 40Kb.

This means I can add in another playable character with a whole new set of animations. This is good news as I was worried about the stage with the females as they need seperate leg sprites

Mode 0 - 2pixels = 1 byte.

However, having finished animating the main character with the current work method I had employed, I'll just carry on as is.
For the backgrounds, I'll make use of those extra bytes.

Just thinking - this game looks as though it may end up on more than 1 disk! ;D

That road and that alley looks really great; they could easily come from a best-selling game from back in time...

Nice thing, about how much memory those tiles take :D Until I saw your last post I was wondering what limit you have set. If it's going to be disk only then presumably multiload won't be a problem and the limit is theoretical... so why stress so much? :) You could even have a mid-level 'big fight' sort of thing (like a mini-boss fight, see Silkworm) and load the next half of the level which could have slightly different gfx or different elements... I mean, after all, how long can a back alley be? ;)

You seem right about the 160x200 tilesheet being actually 80x200...

Modern PC don't know what a non-square pixel is...
So yeah we often "double" the pixels in order to have a "as it would look on CPC" display...

But this can lead to a few anoyance or miscalculations...
advantageous in this case...
;)

If you are to get a lot of multiloadings and brand new tileset for even each sublevel...
Then you may get shitton of graphics provided you produce them.

A full 16K of tiles is actually a lot for a CPC.
Quite few CPC "arcade"games used that much for only one level...
Many used 16K for the entire game...

a 160x200 sheet of tiles, if well used, can allow a good creativity in level design.

As your game seem to be quite heavy on sprites, perhaps keeping only 8K for tiles and more place for Sprites could be good, code-wise.
But the more the better... :)

And if you aim the 6128 config... grating 8K of tiles is not a problem... you clearly have enough to put 16K.
Managing all those sprites will be trickier on the other hand.


I'm working on a JimPower remake for the 6128Plus config and we have the same problematic.

We are considering the spliting of levels in 2 parts, separated by the sub-boss...
So each Half levels may get it's specific tiles...

Yes this implies many more loading... but to be fair disc access is not worse than CD access in more modern consoles (before console got HarddiskDrive...)

in the past, it was believed that gamers (-=console gamers) could not handle loading time and wait...
Hence Nintendo did N64 with cartridges...
And Cartridges were a big thing on C64 too...
Even amstrazd used this argument for the Plus' cartridge games...

But to be fair the amstrad computer have good quality DiskDrives...
While "mundane" C64 average shitfest DiskDrive is as slow as 464's tape...
6128's 3" DDrive was quite fast and reliable...
Even solid, minus the drivebelt issues... (once every years...)

And with "only" 128Ko inbuilt Ram max... it's not like on 16bit (Atari St or PC or Amiga) who had to fill 512K or 1024K of Ram with 720K disks (or 800K (amiga) or even 360k disks...
Even a PC1512 from Amstrad had 360K disks and 512K RAM to fill...

Some AtariST or Amiga Games were quite long to load, because...well...
1024K to read...while playing music.

on a CPC you can expect 180Ko DiskSides...to fill "only" 128K. You never have to read the entire disk...
It is not like it would take more than 30-45seconds...
Just the right time to get a fresh drink.

And on modern CPC with a custom disk drive... a good 720K 3"1/2 disk drive is like having a HDD for the purpose of one action game... concerning Data storage.

Quote from: Gryzor on 08:56, 22 February 11
That road and that alley looks really great; they could easily come from a best-selling game from back in time...

Nice thing, about how much memory those tiles take :D Until I saw your last post I was wondering what limit you have set. If it's going to be disk only then presumably multiload won't be a problem and the limit is theoretical... so why stress so much? :) You could even have a mid-level 'big fight' sort of thing (like a mini-boss fight, see Silkworm) and load the next half of the level which could have slightly different gfx or different elements... I mean, after all, how long can a back alley be? ;)

It's just that I'm trying to be aware about how much data that the CPU will have to shift. There's going to be quite a lot going on and I was trying desperately to be very resourceful with the sprite animations without compromising the quality. I spent a good while trying to figure out how to use colours in a clever way in order to have multiple enemies. For instance - I designed a character with sunglasses and managed with a lot of trial and error to convert that whole head into him wearing a baseball cap, just by switching some colours around. I wont need to do this anymore. Even though it looked "okay" I wasn't happy with the results. I don't know when I'll ever create a beat em up like this again as it's a lot of work which is why I'm going all out.

Mid bosses - I was thinking of the larger sprite, with few moves but powerful:)

Quote from: MacDeath on 11:29, 22 February 11

A full 16K of tiles is actually a lot for a CPC.
Quite few CPC "arcade"games used that much for only one level...
Many used 16K for the entire game...

...it looks like the renegade games used 8Kb tiles per level.

Quote from: sigh on 15:01, 22 February 11
It's just that I'm trying to be aware about how much data that the CPU will have to shift.

But this doesn't factor here... all having more tiles or frames of animation means is that you'll use more memory, it doesn't have an effect on the CPU strain.  The CPU will only have to display X number of tiles a frame (if you scroll) and 1 frame (or maybe less if it's 25hz) of animation per sprite.


So a more realistic situation is the programmer will say; you can have X amount of animated sprites (but this is not the number of frames) on the screen at one time and the playing area can be X * Y (but this is not the number of tiles in your sheet) in tile size.  They will probably then say my code is X amount in size and therefore you have X amount of space (in which you do have to fit all your frames of animation and all your different tiles) for your tile/sprite sheets.

Quote from: redbox on 16:31, 22 February 11

But this doesn't factor here... all having more tiles or frames of animation means is that you'll use more memory, it doesn't have an effect on the CPU strain.  The CPU will only have to display X number of tiles a frame (if you scroll) and 1 frame (or maybe less if it's 25hz) of animation per sprite.


So a more realistic situation is the programmer will say; you can have X amount of animated sprites (but this is not the number of frames) on the screen at one time and the playing area can be X * Y (but this is not the number of tiles in your sheet) in tile size.  They will probably then say my code is X amount in size and therefore you have X amount of space (in which you do have to fit all your frames of animation and all your different tiles) for your tile/sprite sheets.

Okay. Understood:)

i have to ask this now...

what app are you doing this with?

and are you actually drawing this by plotting 2 square pixels next to each other on all of your stuff to get the 2:1 aspect ratio?

Steve

Quote from: STE86 on 19:52, 22 February 11
i have to ask this now...

what app are you doing this with?

and are you actually drawing this by plotting 2 square pixels next to each other on all of your stuff to get the 2:1 aspect ratio?

Steve

Using PSP. Yes-I pixel with a 2x1 grid.

Roughly - how much space should one leave for sound for music and sound effects?

ok...

something to think about...

unless you are totally in love with PSP, you may want to check out GIMP (which is free) or Photoshop cs2 and above (which isnt)

either of those 2 apps will allow you to draw in 2:1 pixel aspect ratio with a document size of 160x200 pixels.

now i am not a GIMP expert, but i am experienced with making photoshop draw in c64/amstrad res and can point you at a c64 forum thread which explains how to set up Gimp and PS to do exactly that.

i returned to doing c64 art after a break of 21 years in September and would not have even considered it without the 2:1 pixel ratio in photoshop :)

Steve

Yeah, even GrafX2 maybe - primitive UI but handles 2x1 aspect ratios just fine. Just messing about with it now - it's nowhere near the old DPaint on the Amiga, but good for doing some CPC graphics, which I am now, for the first time in an age.

No interest in learning a new interface at this stage as my only concern is getting the work done with familiar tools without having to start wrestling with new software. It's taken a good few weekdays and weekends just trying to get to the stage I am at now.

I've been using PSP for a good few years, but if I were to learn a new package it would be something like promotion.

Any answers to the sound and music space question?

Quote from: sigh on 02:26, 23 February 11
Any answers to the sound and music space question?

How long is a piece of string[nb]Twice the length from the centre to one end[/nb]?


A guesstimate would be approx 6kb, unless anyone else has a better figure?

Quote from: redbox on 11:08, 23 February 11

How long is a piece of string[nb]Twice the length from the centre to one end[/nb]?


A guesstimate would be approx 6kb, unless anyone else has a better figure?

Heh heh! Sorry. :)

I'll try and leave around 16Kb for it.

Quote from: sigh on 14:20, 23 February 11
I'll try and leave around 16Kb for it.

It shouldn't be over 8kb, so that would be more sensible.  :)


(I said 6kb as I thought somewhere between 4 and 8kb).

Quote from: redbox on 14:43, 23 February 11

It shouldn't be over 8kb, so that would be more sensible.  :)


(I said 6kb as I thought somewhere between 4 and 8kb).

Hmmm - The thing is, I wouldn't mind hearing some digitzed voice of a scream when the player character and boss characters get KO'd(wouldn't need it for the normal enemies). That's why I was wondering about tht 16Kb.

Scrapping this ambitious in game voice idea as I'm guessing that using a digitized voice/scream is going to take up all 3 channels to get something decent, which means losing the music while it's playing the voice; but it could be used for the end of leves bosses when you give him/her that final thump!

Is it possible to mix down 3 channels of music and then put it onto 1 channel?

How many people use stereo speakers or headphones?
If you mix down to 1 channel you lose stereo sound, I think stereo sound effects should be used more to give clues to where the threat is coming from.

I think that stopping the music for a 'final' event is ok - it gives the proceedings a more dramatic tone...

Quote from: Gryzor on 18:47, 27 February 11
I think that stopping the music for a 'final' event is ok - it gives the proceedings a more dramatic tone...

It's what I'm thinking. When an end of level boss gets KO'd, it would be a non playable part of the game much in the same sense of Chase HQ etc, although it would have the animation of the boss flying through the air and landing on the ground, while the voice is playing.

Quote from: sigh on 21:28, 27 February 11
It's what I'm thinking. When an end of level boss gets KO'd, it would be a non playable part of the game much in the same sense of Chase HQ etc, although it have the animation of the boss flying through the air and landing on the ground, while the voice is playing.

This is similar to Rick Dangerous 128+ (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Rick_Dangerous_128%2B) as when you die, they play the 15khz scream sample from the 16-bit version whilst the dying character falls off the screen.

Not sure if this was done using the DMA sound feature of the Plus though?

Quote from: redbox on 21:31, 27 February 11
This is similar to Rick Dangerous 128+ (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Rick_Dangerous_128%2B) as when you die, they play the 15khz scream sample from the 16-bit version whilst the dying character falls off the screen.

Not sure if this was done using the DMA sound feature of the Plus though?

Yes (although that's while your playing the game) I think something like this would be a good.

Quote from: sigh on 21:28, 27 February 11
It's what I'm thinking. When an end of level boss gets KO'd, it would be a non playable part of the game much in the same sense of Chase HQ etc, although it would have the animation of the boss flying through the air and landing on the ground, while the voice is playing.

Please make that slo-mo!

And if you could do a Rick-like effect, zooming the sprite in and out a bit it'd be fab :)

Quoteslo-mo

Amstrad CPC is prone to slo-mo...
So many games are full-slow-motion actually... :D

QuoteThis is similar to Rick Dangerous 128+ (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Rick_Dangerous_128%2B) as when you die, they play the 15khz scream sample from the 16-bit version whilst the dying character falls off the screen.

Not sure if this was done using the DMA sound feature of the Plus though?

Yes, was done with DMA...
Easier on a PLUS...
and it also enable a tragic and cinematic Matrix-like slowmotion at the same occasion. ;D

5 more screens to go...

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/5689faf44a.gif)

3 screens and this is nearly using 8KB as the vans took a lot of tile space. The next 2 screens will be simpler with plain buildings with cracked walls. The 2 after that will have a fence with the last screen being an open area with sillhouted buildings in the background. These are the backdrop ideas for the other 5 levels:

1) Mohawk punk gang (above)             - Residential area
2) Football shirt wearing gang             -  Park, (football stadium in background,)(parallax scrolling on trees?)
3) Hoodie wearing, moped riding gang - The bridge (small boats, water, city in background)
4) Female gang                                     - 2 floor music club (table, chairs, bar)
5) Mask wearing gang                           - Abandoned Warehouse/Scrapyard
6) Suited gang                                       - mansion

i still think you need a subway/tube platform area with a subway train in the background for the nasties to pile out of.

all very "deathwish" and "warriors" but very stereotypical "New York" gangs.

your Park thing sounds good, but may i suggest you substitute Baseball with shirts, caps and bats instead of football. i would expect more baseball/softball to be played in parks than football.

You could even do a Coney Island fairground level which is again from Warriors

(i really do suggest you check this film out if you can, as it's basically the game you are designing)

Best of luck.

Steve

Quote from: STE86 on 02:17, 28 February 11
i still think you need a subway/tube platform area with a subway train in the background for the nasties to pile out of.

all very "deathwish" and "warriors" but very stereotypical "New York" gangs.

your Park thing sounds good, but may i suggest you substitute Baseball with shirts, caps and bats instead of football. i would expect more baseball/softball to be played in parks than football.

Steve

Football, I always see being played in parks far more than baseball(at least in the UK anyway). The hooligans will have their spanners and and metal bars for weapons. Perhaps even a football! :)
I've seen "The Warriors", but I don't want to rehash the subway/tube scene over again and again (Renegade, Crimefighters etc). I want to try more different areas as I'm going for something more European than American.

Quote from: STE86 on 02:17, 28 February 11

(i really do suggest you check this film out if you can, as it's basically the game you are designing)

Best of luck.

Steve

I think they actually made the warriors game on the PS2. It's not really what I'm designing graphically (at least not what I've been refering to). It's more 2000 than 70's or 80's.

oh fair enough. i was under the impression you were doing american gang warfare not european.

in that case you are obviously watching stuff like Green Street and almost anything with Danny Dyer in :)

Steve

Watched "This is England" last night. Lovely movie, but more importantly for our purposes, it could serve as inspiration for quite a few levels... Indeed, STE86 was not wrong in assuming this is a US-centric concept; I've never seen a brit-looking game, which would be really lovely. Red bricks, "Look Right" on the asphalt, skinheads, "Maggie is a twat" on the walls... :D

Just a thought...

Quote from: sigh on 00:54, 28 February 11
1) Mohawk punk gang (above)             - Residential area

This mock-up looks really good.  Love the Transit van  :)


I think a British version of this game would be cool, because as you said Renegade etc was already based on Warriors.


I like Gryzor's ideas for the subtle things that would prompt your mind as to where it's based.

To be honest, I'm just using references from my surrounding areas, so it could be set anywhere - but those things will be more eurocentric.
In the end, I'm just looking to do some nice looking backgrounds. For instance - at the end of this level, it will be an open plain with a disused power station in the background. The park with the footy hooligans, the nightclubs, the classic white vans, hoodies and tracksuit bottoms, mopeds etc.
I guess these are quite euro/UK things and I'll more likely be refering to things outside of films/movies. I still see mohawks (albeit, much smaller versions), but the whole skinhead/prostitute thing is a little dated for my tastes.

well, as i see the same sort of scenery as you do :) ...

can i suggest the warehouse option could become disused/dilapidated factory/steelworks,

complete with skeletal industrial units with no roofs and the remnants of overhead cranes, chains and girders.

all old brickwork and rusty corrugated iron would maybe look quite interesting graphically.

this is the kind of backstreet place still to be seen in my area before they are pulled down to build apartments on.

Steve

Don't forget the burnt out cars, shopping trollies in the stream and smashed windows, I want to emigrate!

*cough* teens puking their guts out with a Smirnoff Ice in their hand? :D

Depends what Football you're talking about...

Quoteyour Park thing sounds good, but may i suggest you substitute Baseball   with shirts, caps and bats instead of football. i would expect more   baseball/softball to be played in parks than football.

(http://www.smashy.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Handegg_thumb4.jpg)
;D



Anyway I noticed the Ford Transit Van too... nicely done.


Anyway for the themes you can check all the classical fight stuff...

the dealer at the park who sells bad drugs or scroodge you on the quantity...

the Nightclub entrance where a douchebag put his hand on your girlfriend's back... you start to push hiom aside but... well you know, he has friends...


The Bar... wher the tankard spill his Bier on you and even ask you to pay him a new one because he spillt it on you...

Also at post office waiting line... the post office is about to close and can only take one more customer... and another douche go before you, while it was not his turn but yours...

Oh a "boxing day"... in Xmas 1985... for the last HalfPriced AmstradCPC6128 at Dixon's shelf...
Fight !!! ;)

Quote from: MacDeath on 19:39, 28 February 11
Oh a "boxing day"... in Xmas 1985... for the last AmstradCPC6128 at Dixon's shelf...
Fight !!! ;)

Solid gold. There could be banners announcing the launch of the CPC, it would be soooo awesome!

Quote from: MacDeath on 19:39, 28 February 11
the dealer at the park who sells bad drugs or scroodge you on the quantity...

the Nightclub entrance where a douchebag put his hand on your girlfriend's back... you start to push hiom aside but... well you know, he has friends...

The Bar... wher the tankard spill his Bier on you and even ask you to pay him a new one because he spillt it on you...

Also at post office waiting line... the post office is about to close and can only take one more customer... and another douche go before you, while it was not his turn but yours...

Oh a "boxing day"... in Xmas 1985... for the last HalfPriced AmstradCPC6128 at Dixon's shelf...
Fight !!! ;)

Why do I get the feeling that you're speaking from years of experience? :D

Bryce.

Quote from: STE86 on 15:19, 28 February 11
well, as i see the same sort of scenery as you do :) ...

can i suggest the warehouse option could become disused/dilapidated factory/steelworks,

complete with skeletal industrial units with no roofs and the remnants of overhead cranes, chains and girders.

all old brickwork and rusty corrugated iron would maybe look quite interesting graphically.

this is the kind of backstreet place still to be seen in my area before they are pulled down to build apartments on.

Steve

Yes - that's pretty much what I had in mind.

Quote from: steve on 17:40, 28 February 11
Don't forget the burnt out cars, shopping trollies in the stream and smashed windows, I want to emigrate!

Trolleys are an interesting idea. (Not too sold on the burnt out cars...)

Quote from: arnoldemu on 09:39, 14 February 11
Take a look at Grell and Falla this uses hardware scrolling, but I don't think it's push scroll as seen in others like Prehistorik 2.

I had a look at Grell and Falla regarding the scrolling. I feel it's a bit too jerky and choppy. Definitely would want something far smoother.

QuoteSolid gold. There could be banners announcing the launch of the CPC, it would be soooo awesome!

Perhaps I should try to put this into graphic when i get enough time... ;)   
(I do have too much projects at the moment...ouch...I'm a living Vaporware in itself...))
some fight game with the theme 80's Kid's harsh Life...

a crossbreed between renegade and scott pilgrim...


The original Renegade wasn't about Bronx gangfight but more something like Afterschool adolescent fight...

The original story was about a youngster you defends his little brother against rival schools students... ah, those Japaneses...


But the Boxing day theme seems like a solid stuff too...
and quite fun one.
we call this "les Soldes" in France... you know, the period where all prices are reduced to get rid of the stocks before the next "collection"...

with girls catfighting over the last -50% priced Chanel scarf or Vuitton bag...

There was even a movie with Schwarzenegger covering the fight over the last cool toy... at Xmas... Father is indeed a hard Job...


Do you know if a cracked version of Renegade with Real RED blood exists ?
I mean, blue blood is somewhat too Alien or Noble to me...

It was Censorship but to us kids it was more like "WTF ? is that some glitch ? What were they thinking ?
Simply a dickery from "mothers association for the moral safety of our beloved kids" ?
(also called the "morron rich zealot wifes pack who should care their own bizness and go back to the kitchen !!!") >:(

Quote from: MacDeath on 03:35, 01 March 11

Do you know if a cracked version of Renegade with Real RED blood exists ?
I mean, blue blood is somewhat too Alien or Noble to me...

It already has a built in key press cheat to do just that:
http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=146 (http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=146)


Though I cant seem to get it to work in an emulator, but I used it all the time back in the day once I'd read about it.

Erm.... 8 keys at once? Can you do that on a CPC???

Yep, as long as the combination of keys doesn't clash. Most PC keyboards won't let you do it though.

I'm thinking of having KO stars instead of blood. In the original Japanese version of Renegade (in school uniforms) it was quite amusing seeing the stars circling around their heads.

Quote from: sigh on 19:53, 01 March 11
I'm thinking of having KO stars instead of blood. In the original Japanese version of Renegade (in school uniforms) it was quite amusing seeing the stars circling around their heads.

US version is no different.  Blood on the CPC version is specific to it alone (although, I'm not sure about other ports), whatever the colour.

Quote from: mahlemiut on 22:07, 01 March 11
US version is no different.  Blood on the CPC version is specific to it alone (although, I'm not sure about other ports), whatever the colour.

Ahhh - this I never knew. Could add in some secret key presses for stars or blood ;)

Blood FTW. Don't turn it into Mortal Kombat, but it seems like you're doing a dark game to some extend, so stars wouldn't cut it...

Quote from: Gryzor on 07:30, 02 March 11
Blood FTW. Don't turn it into Mortal Kombat, but it seems like you're doing a dark game to some extend, so stars wouldn't cut it...

Hmmm. I don't know what it is about having blood in the game that I find slightly off putting, but at the same time it's isn't as cliche as having the enemies flash when they've been defeated - so blood it is.

YEEEEAH! GIVE US GORE AND BRRRRRAIIIINS!

And who knows, maybe The Sun will pick it up and run a campaign against it, and it'll become famous and sell  by the bucket. Maybe do a cover with semi-naked girls, while you're at it.

email sent to Maria Whittaker

Ooh. 25 years later, not exactly what I had in mind. Unless we can dig up some old photos...

Quote from: Gryzor on 20:19, 03 March 11
Ooh. 25 years later, not exactly what I had in mind. Unless we can dig up some old photos...

Heh!

Regarding the sound, I noticed that on Target Renegade, the sound effect cuts out the music on some of the levels. It seems like they both share a channel and sometimes not.

Anyway -home from work and hoping to get another screen finished today.

Quote from: sigh on 21:40, 03 March 11
Anyway -home from work and hoping to get another screen finished today.

Did you? :)

Quote from: Gryzor on 08:14, 04 March 11
Did you? :)

heh heh! Not quite.

Ah well there's always another day to do it :)

Quote from: andycadley on 17:07, 01 March 11
Yep, as long as the combination of keys doesn't clash. Most PC keyboards won't let you do it though.

The only ones I've found that work are USB keyboards.

Found this game...
I think this may give you some ideas...
but it doesn't seems quite good...yet the graphics are not that bad.

Quote from: MacDeath on 03:03, 19 March 11
Found this game...
I think this may give you some ideas...
but it doesn't seems quite good...yet the graphics are not that bad.

Hmmm....didn't get any ideas from that to be honest (but thanks anyway!).
Story so far: Finished screen number 4 and have 4 more left to have a finished first level. Also have drawn a rough picture of the playable female character.

No Ideas of course...
I just meant this was the kind of game (theme) that you are doing...

always good to see what exist. ;)

Glad to hear you progress.

Quick update:

Finished screen number 5 and have 3 more to do (working on screen 6 tomorrow). It looks like the backgrounds will take up around 12kb. Ideally, I should probably try to make this amount of data it takes up, used across the board for the other backgrounds but it is one of the less complex backgrounds, when compared to the night club and the warehouse/scrapyard.

Really glad to see it's steaming ahead :)

Screen number 6 is done. Not to sure if my tile management has been that great but I'm trying to make both ends of the level connect. The reason for this, is that it would be nice that  everytime you restarted the that same level, you would start on a different screen. For instance, you may start the level on the screen where the vans are, or maybe start the level on the screen with the shutter . Starting and ending at different points would break up the monotomy a bit, along with the enemy placements being different each time. Have 2 more screens to do.

For the next level (park) It would be nice to have some parallax scrolling. I'm thinking a football stadium in the background or a 6 frame animation punch up between rival fans. Then have a layer on top with trees. The a foreground layer (in at the bottom of the screen with grass. This level wouldn't be tile heavy with probably only half the tiles of level 1.

Is this possible?

*the music could be football chants :)

The idea is actually quite nice - starting from random points -, but the opposite also has its merit: by always having the same line of progression you get a motive to go further and see new stuff...

Yeah - I understand the point about progression. So what I could do is have the starting postion always changing along with enemy placements, but have the last screen always the same. To acheive this, I'll have to make sure that I have 2 screens that are able to connect with the all the others. It should work really well.

It will keep the levels feeling fresh, especially with the random enemy placements(will they come from the front of the screen or behind? Will they pop out from the van or shutters ;) )

This would be both nice and a novelty - trying to reach THE place through different paths. Which begs the question, how much time would be to do forking paths and decisions?

Different paths would need more backgrounds to make it all worth while and varied enough - which would be cool, but I'm not prepared to do that at this stage as I prefer the random starting screens as I wouldn't be forced to compromise the background details in order to save on ram space. It's also quicker to do.

Looking forward to finishing these last 2 screens as I want to start finalizing the female playable characters design and start animating her. I also still need to do the level 1 boss design along with the boss background which will be only one screen, but will have some background animation and breakable objects.

Finished the background for level 1! (apart from the 1 screen boss hideout.) I'll have to put in an order for promotion this week as I missed a couple of naughty single pixels which have now been rectified(I hope) in the tile sheets. So I will have to fix some of those screens and search out those tiles. I'll create a telephone box that will breakable - 1 normal frame and another frame of it shattered. Should have all these done for this week.

Breakable environments? Wow!!!

F**k yeah!  I wanna smash up a telephone box!

;)

Quote from: redbox on 19:40, 26 April 11
F**k yeah!  I wanna smash up a telephone box!

;)

Quote from: Gryzor on 11:16, 26 April 11
Breakable environments? Wow!!!

fingers crossed.

The old GPO red telephone boxes were made of cast iron, I doubt you could break them even if you ran over them in a tank!.

The newer "phone points" (they can  hardly be called boxes), are much flimsier.

What about a Tardis/Police box ? 8)

It's going to be more like this:

http://www.scarborough.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=13519 (http://www.scarborough.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=13519)

It's a little more generic.

Quote from: MacDeath on 10:59, 01 May 11
What about a Tardis/Police box ? 8)

Here's one if you need it. ;)
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Antiques-collectables/Movie-TV-memorabilia/Other/auction-371427079.htm

Update with the Player 2 female character and telephone box to be smashed in background:

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/bc68f8acdc.gif)

Still debating on what some of her moves should be. Thinking of replacing the knee grab, with a grab move that involves punching the enemy in the stomach similar to Dudley in SF3 or Vanessa of KOF and then finishing with an elbow....

Quotewith a grab move that involves punching the enemy in the stomach

Quotestomach

one word : Balls ?

Quote from: MacDeath on 17:28, 07 May 11
one word : Balls ?

That's a seperate move (and will be a rather painful looking one).

Some female player poses: Standing, Crouching, Double handed uppercut, Back kick, Flying kick

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/752bd70bc4.gif)

Although this game is designed for 128kb (CPC6128 or 464 with 64kb memory expansion), I've been thinking that a CPC464 64kb version could be possible with some cutbacks:

1) No second female player in 2 player mode.
2) No scrolling. Flick scrolling only.
3) Less detailed backgrounds.
4) Some special moves omitted from main player.

This also got me thinking about the PLUS:

464 PLUS version using 64kb only:

1)Same as CPC464 but with hardware scrolling.

...6128 PLUS version using 128kb only:

1) Same as CPC6128 but hardware Scrolling and digitized voice.


All these ideas are just food for thought and way down the list of priorities for now, but would be good to reach a further audience in the Amstrad world.

Great job, as always :)

So far..

Tweaking the female punch animation and rhave decided to replace her back kick with an elbow to the face instead.

Also been looking at creating some mode 1 static cutscenes between levels, but I'm thinking that it would be interesting using the ingame graphics instead - similar to old school Japanese RPG's with the text at the bottom.

Cutscenes would be new... I'd totally dig it :)

This looks like a promising "Street of Rage" clone... :P

Perhaps instead of trying a 464PLUS version, aim at a Cartridge (ROM based) version.

ROM means that you have far less limitation than the 64K RAM only...

And then perhaps a bit less reduction compared to a 128Plus version...
Then such ROM+128PLUS could only get extras in form of compressed Datas...

extra sample sounds, a little more extra Softsprites effects... perhaps.

Definitely don't want to be messing with any cartridge media. The tape and disk media (whether it be 3 inch or 3 1/2) are far more accessible.

Update:

Started a little bit this week planning out the rest of the female characters moves. Started pixelling her elbow pose which will finish her stomach punching grab move (not animated yet). It's been nearly 3 months since I touched this and lots of things happened during that time, but I'll post some stuff sometime next week.

Pixel boobs... *drool*

Been doing some work this very morning. The frames I drew out for the stomach grab punch are going through some alterations but they are coming on nicely. I'm going to have to re animate the hit reactions to the grab moves to make the compositing of the different body parts easier.

Off to do some shopping and will come back and get this first frame pixelled and posed correctly.

(http://i.imgur.com/bA2PJ.gif)






*Okay - I just tried to drag and drop an animated gif into this message, but it doesn't come up when I post:/

damn! i cant stop watching the punching! its like some kind of weird hypnotism  :laugh:

great looking sprites tho!

@trocoloco: me too! Must have seen that loop a hundred times by now. Superb!!!


@sigh: amazing job... how are you doing, memory-wise? I have never tried dragging and dropping, why would you think this would work?

My memory must be fading! I thought I was dragging and dropping the anims in before :-[ .

I didn't get to touch this for the past 2 weeks as I was investigating on special effects (for a different project) but this weekend sunday should see more developement. Although the male character is pretty much finished, I do need to get the female and some enemies done before giving it to arnoldemu.

Hahaha! Apologies, I wasn't referring to your memory, but the memory usage of your project! :D :D

Quote from: Gryzor on 12:43, 14 August 12
Hahaha! Apologies, I wasn't referring to your memory, but the memory usage of your project! :D :D

Ahh - sorry :D !

On the project - I finished the female stomach punch grab move yesterday. The male has the "knee" equivalent followed by a headbutt. The female character also needs a follow up move but I'm not to sure what to do as it was going to be the elbow, but I've decided to use the elbow as the "attack from behind move" (aka Double Dragon).
I'm thinking of a kick to the face.

Regarding the memory - I've been keeping the female sprite animation timings exactly the same as the males. This should hopefully eliminate any extra code that would of been needed if there had been extra frames or a different set of timings added for the female. To be honest - we wont really know about the memory until I've got the female set done and the enemy sprite torsos complete. The enemies will be using the same legs which will save a lot of memory.

Hello people!

Amongst the work deadlines and a short holiday break - things are moving on.

I finished the annoying-to-animate grab move for the female character in which she does finish with an elbow to the face. For the behind move - she now stomps on the enemies foot which then can be comboed into the back kick to knock him/her onto the ground. I need to animate the enemy reaction to getting his foot stomp which will result in 2 frames of him hopping about on one leg (similar to the anim when he gets kicked in the groin.) The animation shown below is moving at 18 fames per second.

(http://www.imageurlhost.com/images/znesjqgydb847zrreea2.gif) (http://www.imageurlhost.com/images/znesjqgydb847zrreea2.gif)

I'm changing thing around a bit regarding the moveset. I originally had the guy having the ability to sit on top of a KOed opponent and doing the face pummel. This I'm now going to have the female though which should hopefully just be a simple trace and a head swap. I'm going to have the guy do a headlock/choke hold on the enemy instead when on the ground. This should only be 3 frames for the choking loop.

It's been rather difficult in keeping the frame timings the same for both characters, while also trying to inject as much difference in fighting styles and characteristics withing each character. I want the characters to fight dirty (I have already done the front kick animations which will be used to kick dust in the enemies face; also I would like the female to bite the enemies arm if held from behind) but this may result in extra code work which I wanted to avoid....

Today I will pixel the 1 frame reaction of her getting hit in the stomach (easy)and then, will have to prepare myself to finish her punch animation and the uppercut, which I've put off completing as it's a pain in the ass(not so easy!)

Skills!!

^^+1!


The last animation is brilliant. Not only is it lovely to look at, but it's also pretty original and full of character. You, Sir, got talent!

Quote from: Gryzor on 18:04, 12 September 12
^^+1!


The last animation is brilliant. Not only is it lovely to look at, but it's also pretty original and full of character. You, Sir, got talent!

Cheers! Was in the middle of doing a "Double Dragon" hair grab knee to the face. I love that move so damn much and trying hard not to just stick it into the game. Sooooo damn tempted! :P

Punches, uppercut and weapon swing animation is finished and have now moved onto her throw move. I think I may have 6 more animation left to do on her which is the dodge, sitting on opponent pummel, throwing an object, kicking dust into the opponents face, being kicked in the shins and arm biting. (Arm biting is going to be very tricky!)

On the guy - strangle hold on floor, being kicked in the shins and elbow to the gut when being held from behind. I'm also giving him a new back kick animation and a backfist animation.

I've been looking into doing some sort of "rough fighting" such as pushing, shoving, and swinging an opponent around while they are grabbed or in a headlock. I think that some of these could work as idle/aesthetics animations when the 2 players are in the grab or being grabbed poses, with the swinging around animation happening when the player taps forward on the joystick. It would make things feel more alive in the grab poses and give it a raw and dirty fighting feel.

I like the way that this thread is called "Quick question" and we're now on page 16 :D

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 22:55, 14 September 12
I like the way that this thread is called "Quick question" and we're now on page 16 :D

Bryce.

Heh, it's expanded quite a bit since the first question:)

Almost done working out her throw, though I couldn't reuse the legs from her walk and punches and had to create new poses for the throw (apart from the last frame.) Now I just have to create a new torso frame for the mid pose and hopefully that should be it. I'll move on to doing the guys back kick animation AGAIN!!!

Throw:

(http://i.imgur.com/souzP.gif)

I may do and extra frame for with the enemies legs up in the air when landing on the ground after being hit.

Now for the male back kick....

And another brilliant move. There's quite some sense of motion in it!


Quick question: is this ever going to turn into a new game?
16 going on 17...

Quote from: Gryzor on 18:23, 15 September 12
Quick question: is this ever going to turn into a new game?

It will remain a scrolling beat em up; though I have been wondering whether to have less screens as to fight in an area like in Renegade, or just stick to scrolling from one end to another like in Target/Double Dragon. Renegade enemies are by far the toughest of any beat em up as the game is all about controlling space and timing of kicks/punches in a given area of maybe only 3 screens wide, in which the enemies will frequently dodge and duck your moves which means there is no room for button mashing. This is what I really like about Renegade.

Nicer looking male back kick is done. Now moving on to the hopping on one leg animation after being stamped on the foot/kicked in the shins.

Well, even scrolling beat-em-ups are usually essentially the same in that every few screens they stop - and baddies catch up with you. If proper scrolling can be done then I'd say go with it since we're missing those...

Go with the one you find most playable. I loved games nonscrolling games like Yie ar Kung Fu and  Renegade

Well - we'll know what will be the better option when I give arnoldemu the rest of the anims.

Today's tasks:

Female face pummel.
Hopping on one leg (male/female)

Quote from: sigh on 11:13, 16 September 12
Today's tasks:

Female face pummel.
Hopping on one leg (male/female)

If you take this out of context it sounds really weird and suspicious.

Been away for a bit... come back and see this. I love fighters, will this be playable on the CPC?

Quote from: ukmarkh on 16:10, 16 September 12
Been away for a bit... come back and see this. I love fighters, will this be playable on the CPC?

Yes, it will be playable on a CPC.

Pummel is now finished and in the middle of doing the last set of legs for the hop before moving on to the torsos.

Quote from: sigh on 18:02, 16 September 12
Yes, it will be playable on a CPC.

Pummel is now finished and in the middle of doing the last set of legs for the hop before moving on to the torsos.

Can we have a special move like in Final Fight haha...

...or Mortal Kombat? Call it "Amstradality" :D

Quote from: ukmarkh on 18:05, 16 September 12

Can we have a special move like in Final Fight haha...

Special moves seem to work better when there's lots of enemies you can get rid of at once. In Final Fight for instance were most of the enemies just walk into your punches, special moves work wonders. With this game, we can only have around 4 enemy sprites at once, so to make it challenging they will need to have a greater awarness in regards to distance and positioning making the game more tactical like Renegade (despite the back kick abuse!)

I've been looking into animating more ground fighting for each characters so they are kind of special moves in their own ways.

Progress Update:

Being kicked in shins have been done for both characters. At lunch time I will redraw the block pose. The blocking would be activated by holding down the fire button. You can still walk in this state but you will obviously be facing in one direction and the walk speed would slow down. I'm thinking that while holding down the block button that double tapping forward or backwards on the joystick/joypad would make you duck or sway :)

So how was lunch? :)


I would say, double-left or -right while blocking should make the character leap a bit forward or backward?

Quote from: Gryzor on 13:13, 21 September 12
I would say, double-left or -right while blocking should make the character leap a bit forward or backward?

Yes - I was thinking about this, but it's something that I wouldn't want to see abused all the time like in a lot of other beat em ups with double tap run/dashes, as it end up as one huge leap fest!
I'm thinking that as well as having a health bar, there should also be a stamina bar (aka dark souls/boxing games), so you can't keep spamming/mashing moves unecessarily.
This again would make the game more tactical:)

But yes - a small evade step would be good to have.

Quote from: sigh on 17:04, 21 September 12
Yes - I was thinking about this, but it's something that I wouldn't want to see abused all the time like in a lot of other beat em ups with double tap run/dashes, as it end up as one huge leap fest!
I'm thinking that as well as having a health bar, there should also be a stamina bar (aka dark souls/boxing games), so you can't keep spamming/mashing moves unecessarily.
This again would make the game more tactical:)

But yes - a small evade step would be good to have.
[/q[size=78%]uote][/size]

Just do it where if you use the evade or special move, it removes a touch of energy. People will only use it when they're in a pickle. I still think a special move would be good, or the ability to pick up guns and fire off a few shots

As long as the game has a nice flow like the Renegade of old , it will be cool to have these nice features and stunning animations !!

Sigh, UKmarkh, I agree with you, and I considered a solution with a sort of penalty, like suggested. Maybe instead of losing energy the hero could lose some time, like stumbling and whatnot. Depends on the AI, but it could mean that, with dashing you gain some space but you also run some risk by remaining unmovable for a moment or two?

Quote from: ukmarkh on 21:33, 24 September 12

Just do it where if you use the evade or special move, it removes a touch of energy. People will only use it when they're in a pickle. I still think a special move would be good, or the ability to pick up guns and fire off a few shots

"Guns" is a big definite NO NO!!!! I just don't think that having special moves is necessary for so few characters on screen. Streets of rage has tons of characters on screen so a special move with the police car firing off a huge bazooka is definitely useful. I wont rule it out completely, but it's on a very low list of priorities.

Quote from: Gryzor on 13:28, 25 September 12
Sigh, UKmarkh, I agree with you, and I considered a solution with a sort of penalty, like suggested. Maybe instead of losing energy the hero could lose some time, like stumbling and whatnot. Depends on the AI, but it could mean that, with dashing you gain some space but you also run some risk by remaining unmovable for a moment or two?

There's the stamina bar depletion with the step evade(again like Dark Souls) which would work.

Quote from: Puresox on 22:04, 24 September 12
As long as the game has a nice flow like the Renegade of old , it will be cool to have these nice features and stunning animations !!

Renegade of old with a lot more hopefully:) I'm still developing the final ideas for the block system which should make the game visually impressive with cues for dodging, evading and counter attacking.

I finished the "full nelson" (being grabbed animation) for the female along with her "armbite" animation which proved to be a bit of nightmare. I just need to adjust some leg sprite that can also be used for the victims reaction. I'll then need to do animation of her kicking while being held (2 frames), and being punched when being held (2 frames.)

Can we see? :)

Quote from: Gryzor on 13:41, 26 September 12
Can we see? :)

Not quite yet:)

I just repixelled her first pose 5 minutes ago.

After house chores (which I haven't started yet ::) ) to finish the female kick and her being hit left and right anims while in full nelson.
The full nelson torso poses are taking up to much space on the sprite sheet for my liking as I have both the attacker and victim torso as one sprite as they are interlocked. Their legs are still seperated from each other as normal. This meant that I had to take out some frames from the bite which has gone from 6 to 3 torso frames.

After she's finished today, I'll do the male version next.

Right - now where's that hoover......

I've been looking at the screen size that I currently have and it is 256 x 144. Would it be better to have it as 256x128 with up and down scrolling for the remaining 16 pixels, or is it better to keep it the size it is with no up and down scrolling?

The female full nelson anims are now complete.

These past few weeks have been crazy with deadlines and late nights at work so I haven't been able to do as much, so it's been rather slow.
Today I need to revisit some of the full nelson anims to cut down on the amount of sprites being used for them which hopefully shouldn't take to long. I'll be animating the males full nelson release which will be a kick to the groin and I'm hoping, that I'll be able to reuse some leg sprites for this one.
I'll then get on with the backfist which is a 2 frame animation and maybe the dust kick which wont require any new torso or leg sprites. I'll just pixel some dust (1 frame.)

I'll also pixel the female scream (War Cry) which will only be 2 frames. I have also started the female head knee and aim to finish that completely next week.

So. Here is what's left to do:

Female:
Hair Grab Knee (Grab move - Double Dragon style!)
Head Slam (Ground Fighting move)
War Cry (Scream that stuns multiple enemies for a second)
Locked Hands (Locked hands with enemy. Push fire button rapidly to gain advantage)

Male:
Full Nelson Release (groin kick)
Back Fist
Headlock Punch (Grab move)
Choke Hold (Ground Fighting move)
Kick Dust In Face (Stuns multiple enemies for a second)
Locked Hands (Locked hands with enemy. Push fire button rapidly to gain advantage)

Getting very close to finishing the main players:)

Did dust animation which turned out to be 3 frames instead of 1. Male Full nelson release is also done.

Current list is now:

Female:

Hair Grab Knee (Grab move - Double Dragon style!)
Head Slam (Ground Fighting move)
War Cry (Scream that stuns multiple enemies for a second)
Locked Hands (Locked hands with enemy. Push fire button rapidly to gain advantage)

Male:

Back Fist
Headlock Punch (Grab move)
Choke Hold (Ground Fighting move)
Locked Hands (Locked hands with enemy. Push fire button rapidly to gain advantage)

Dust animation... wow, attention to detail!!!

The plan for today mid-afternoon!

1: DO NOT PLAY DARK SOULS!

2: Finish off female hair grab knee (almost finished but needs careful optimizing)
3: Finish off male headlock punch (already started this with 3 more frames to do)

Okay - updated list of things to do:)


Female:

Hair grab knee complete!

Head Slam (Ground Fighting move)
War Cry (Scream that stuns multiple enemies for a second)
Locked Hands (Locked hands with enemy. Push fire button rapidly to gain advantage)

Male:

Back fist complete!

Headlock Punch (Grab move)
Choke Hold (Ground Fighting move)
Locked Hands (Locked hands with enemy. Push fire button rapidly to gain advantage)

This leaves 3 more animations left to per character. The war cry scream will be tackled at lunch time tomorrow:)

Hopefully I should get the headlock punch completed next week too.

Can't wait to see the outcome... can't stress this enough :)

HeadLock Punch is now finished. Choke Hold needs only one more frame. Been a bit of pain to do!

Female:

Head Slam (Ground Fighting move)
War Cry (Scream that stuns multiple enemies for a second)
Locked Hands (Locked hands with enemy. Push fire button rapidly to gain advantage)

Male:

HeadLock Punch complete!

Choke Hold (Ground Fighting move) in progress
Locked Hands (Locked hands with enemy. Push fire button rapidly to gain advantage)

Will be finishing the final frame for the Choke Hold today. I haven't laid out all the leg sprites yet, but the male seems to to fit all the legas on a 160 x 200 sheet. The female however, seems to be taking up a little more than that. I've yet to layout the torso's, but I have a feeling that further optimization will be needed.

Locked hands sounds neat as a playing mechanism!

How far till completion, you'd say?

Quote from: Gryzor on 13:14, 05 November 12
Locked hands sounds neat as a playing mechanism!

How far till completion, you'd say?

Completion wise of the first level - not far off. The background for the first level was completed way back so it just leaves the enemies (the boss will be loaded in separately, so it's not too important memory wise). Once this is done we can then see how much memory this whole thing takes, which will enable us to either cut back on background tiles or drop entire animations completely :'( . Ideally I would like to finish off all the enemy anims before christmas, but I have a work deadline up to that point..

HeadLock Punch

(http://i.imgur.com/8RbPm.gif)

Choke Hold

(http://i.imgur.com/GgqVT.gif)

The enemy and player torso in these animations are one sprite. The legs are still kept separate. Although there's not much going on, it's been rather tricky finding ways to optimize these type of animations with these type of torso sprites, as they take more space than I would like.

Updated List:

Female:

Head Slam (Ground Fighting move)
War Cry (Scream that stuns multiple enemies for a second)
Locked Hands (Locked hands with enemy. Push fire button rapidly to gain advantage)

Male:

Locked Hands (Locked hands with enemy. Push fire button rapidly to gain advantage)

Will most likely tackle the war cry scream, though I'm thinking of also giving her the kick dust move instead as it works better for a stun. It's also more sneaky:)

Excellent animation. Reminds me of the neighbourhood I grew up in :)

Bryce.

Who cares about games when you can just go out the door, right? :D

If I comment on these latest samples I'll just be repeating myself, so no point in doing so.

But... great job!

Okay - so I did the head slam move over the weekend which leaves these left to do:

Female:

Locked Hands (Locked hands with enemy. Push fire button rapidly to gain advantage)

Male:

Locked Hands (Locked hands with enemy. Push fire button rapidly to gain advantage)

There's one more animation I forgot to do which is only 2 frames and is roughly 10 minute job and the easiest out of the lot.

The locked hand poses and 2 frame struggle animation is done. All I need to do now is the animation of them swinging each other around. The person who gets to swing, is the one
that gains the advantage. This animation should only need around 3 frames:)

What I'd like to see is the Locked Hands (Male/Female, locked hands with each other, being in love. Everyone wins... babality).

Quote from: Gryzor on 16:04, 14 November 12
What I'd like to see is the Locked Hands (Male/Female, locked hands with each other, being in love. Everyone wins... babality).

Trust you to think of something like that :D

"Locked hands" has now been changed to - "tussle".

Update:

1 more animation to do which I should finish on sunday and I will then start optimizing the animations as much as I can. For some reason, the female legs seems to be taking up far too much space as a lot of her moves have wide stances. After these are optimized I can then get on with tracing the enemies.

Quote from: sigh on 22:58, 28 November 12
For some reason, the female legs seems to be taking up far too much space as a lot of her moves have wide stances.

I know the feeling ;)

Bryce.

Wach that female animation. Pretty soon she'll have half the screen filled with shoes, clothes and little bottles of stuff.

Hello people,

Starting from next week I will begin optimizing the playable characters through the christmas period. This is the biggest major factor that I need to get done in order to start animating the enemies. After optimization is done, everything else art wise will be much easier to do. The backgrounds and level design will probably still be the hardest to concept, but nothing as complicated as the animations.

Going through the male anims at the moment and it looks like I'll have him fully complete and optimized by wednesday. I managed to get rid of 2 legs and 2 torso sprites from the knee attack:) Will optimize the headbutt next and am hoping to get rid of another 4 pieces of body parts from that anim. After this - I'm not to sure what else I can optimize for the male (without making the animations look too "hacky")which means I can clean up the weapon animations and that should be him fully completed - never to be touched again!!!

Man, the forum does your work no justice. You should have a WIP blog :)

Male character is finally finished! ;D Going to take a short break over the this christmas period before moving onto the female.

"moving over the female".... mmmyeah.

Hi there guys and gals! Hope everyone had a wonderful christmas and new year.
I'm almost finished with the female characters optimization. I had to rework a few frames of the male - which I had thought I'd finished. I have 2 more animations for each character to optimize which WILL BE FINISHED ON SUNDAY >:( !

This means that from next week I can start on the Level 1 enemies! This is very exciting as they will be easy to do as I no longer need to work out animation timings or spend entire afternoons finding out which torso works best with which legs as these will have already have been finalized on sunday. Things will be much easier from now on.

All the player animations for both male and female have now been finally optimized and finished! ;D

From next week, I will be animating the enemy sprites for this level which should not take too long to complete. I will then design the hud which will have the life bar, score etc. The hud will be pretty much like the Renegade/Target Renegade in it's simplicity.

Hey, you kept your word ;)

Quote from: Gryzor on 13:43, 07 January 13
Hey, you kept your word ;)

Indeed I did! It's nice to start some new fresh characters for the new year:)

Helloooo

Been working on the enemies and so far have the punching, flykicking and three of the being hit animations done for one of the first level enemies.

I still have these left to do for this one character:

Flykick
Punching
Walk
Throw object
5x Hit reactions
KO
Performing a Grab_Full Nelson
Being Grabbed into Full Nelson
Being thrown

The 2nd enemy set of animations:

Weapon
Kick on floor
Block
Walk
8 x Hit reactions
KO
Being Grabbed into Full Nelson
Being thrown

There's quite a few hit reactions which are taking up a lot of space on the sprite sheet especially in regards to the full nelson type anims. I thought I was being very careful in leaving lots of space for the enemy animations, but I may have underestimated this. It's a good thing that the player and enemy share the legs!

Update:

(http://i.imgur.com/obsFRsC.gif)


Enemies are completed and this is the hud that I finished a while ago. Nothing too fancy using mode 1 just like the Renegade games.

I've currently been working on the Level 1 boss "Tug" which has been slow going as I'm still working out what moves to give him as he will have a fair amount.

(http://i.imgur.com/EJgnRFP.gif)

After he is complete, I will be creating an animation of the gameplay for this level as this will need to be done before any code work can be started.

Although I really loved Renegade, have to say this looks really great and maybe even better... and if we get to see all your descriptions in motion, it might be quite better even!

Oh my f.....g god !.....
Sorry I have not much else to say...  :P 

Quote from: sigh on 18:26, 24 February 13

Update:

(http://i.imgur.com/obsFRsC.gif) (http://i.imgur.com/obsFRsC.gif)


Enemies are completed and this is the hud that I finished a while ago. Nothing too fancy using mode 1 just like the Renegade games.

I've currently been working on the Level 1 boss "Tug" which has been slow going as I'm still working out what moves to give him as he will have a fair amount.

(http://i.imgur.com/EJgnRFP.gif) (http://i.imgur.com/EJgnRFP.gif)

After he is complete, I will be creating an animation of the gameplay for this level as this will need to be done before any code work can be started.

Looking very tasty!

one thing I do remember about this game was there was either a key combination or a poke needed to make the blood look red

Just noticed that this thread, with almost 300 posts and 17000 views, is titled "Quick question on Renegade/Target Renegade graphics" :D

That's because it was a quick question, but it has a looooooooooooooooong answer, hehe!  ;D

Quote from: robcfg on 08:45, 01 April 13
That's because it was a quick question, but it has a looooooooooooooooong answer, hehe!  ;D

...and it will be answered soon! :)

Update:

Will be resuming this from next week as I've been helping out a friend with another project in which I have a few more pieces to finish off, along with some minor tweaking here and there on the artwork. It's cool that I now have additional information on what needs to be done when creating the game, in regards to how the front end needs to work.

So hopefully next week I can once again give the boss animations my full attention and finish him off.

As always, can't wait!

Strangle:

(http://i.imgur.com/NnbidyX.gif) (http://i.imgur.com/NnbidyX.gif)

This will end with the boss slamming the player on to the ground. Originally I was going to give the bosses the exact same number of moves as the players, but I think it would be better to cut down on some of the moves as the players have 2/3 ground attacks, 2 grab moves etc. The bosses will just have one of each.

These are the moves for the first level boss "Tug"

Normal Punches to uppercut finisher. (All bosses will have normal left to right punches like the player)
Strangle combo (Grab move)
Barge (Rushing attack = knock down)
Elbow (Behind attack = Knock down)
Kick (instant stun)
Throw
Wrestler Splash (Air attack, but can also land on top of a knocked down player)
Strangle Hold (Ground Attack)
Double Attack (Move that performs on 2 players that are on either side of the boss)

Block
Dodge/duck/sway
Parry

Head Ram (performed after a successful parry)

Bosses will also be able to pick up weapons and objects too.

Hello folks,

Finished the 1st level boss normal punches and will now be animating the uppercut and the kick.

I'm also going to reduce a few of the animation content on the main characters even though they are fully completed. The reason being is that I found some of the moves didn't really add much value. The value that the moves in question had were " they looked" different. For instance, Choke Hold to Elbow Crash combo vs Knee to Headbutt combo. Do we really need a variation of what is essentially the same move? The moves in this game must have a reason to be executed or other wise it's just a waste of memory as well as adding unecessary work for the coders. More on this later - but here are the removed moves:

IN THE BIN!!!

REMOVED - Hang Kick: This move was animated to have the character leaping onto a sign post, hanging from it and kicking the enemy. I'm trashing this animation as it's far too situational. You would have to be at the right place at the right time and I dont want the enemies to be blindly walking into such an obvious move. I also feel that it's a move that's not worth pulling off and would only be used for the sake of it being there - which probably wouldn't be that often given that the chance of executing the move would be slim.

REMOVED - Male Crashing Elbow: This move was animated to play as a knock out blow at the end of the headlock punch. Removing it as it's just a variation of the knee to headbutt combination. Instead, after the headlock punch he will go behind the player and do the choke hold. This means that the player will hold onto the enemy until they are either kicked off or have succeeded in choking out the enemy. You wont be able to throw the enemy in the behind choke hold position AND being locked in that position makes it a risky move to execute, but the reward is that you can defeat a fresh enemy in one go if you succeed. The played will have tap the button/waggle the joystick rapidly giving the intensity of an actual struggle.
This also has the added benefit of being a very good team move as it the other player can punch the enemy as they are being choked.


REMOVED - Female Hammer Double Punch: same reason as the Male Crashing Elbow. She too will end with a choke hold saving a few frames in the process.

REMOVED - Kicking enemy in front when held from behind: A move which gives the player the ability to kick an enemy in front if they are being held from behind. After much consideration, I dont think the move is really justified as your likely going to want to struggle out of the hold than execute that move. This means I managed to get rid of some frames as that particular move was taking up a lot of sprite space.

CHANGED - Front Kick: Changed the male and female version to something that has mulitple uses. It's now a violent kick to the shins which also hits an enemy on the floor as well as objects such as barrels, dirt/liquid at the enemy.

REMOVING - Female Sit on Punch: This was a second type of ground fighting move which I liked, but it felt just like another variation of the "Head Bash". The male has the "Sit on Punch" and a ground headlock choke(same function as behind choke hold). Both these will work well in terms of uses and funtionality.
For the female sit on punch replacement - I will animate her either performing an armlock or a leg lock which will have the same functionality as the behind headlock.

Also - Sit on Punch and Head bash will now combo, which can either end with the player throwing the enemy from the floor or kicking them away.


Edit: Just finished the leg lock pose. Will animate it tomorrow:)

Arm Lock:

(http://i.imgur.com/SgqQdfU.gif) (http://i.imgur.com/SgqQdfU.gif)

Trying to execute these moves in the least amount of frames and overlays are pain to do and the male headlock version was no different!
This lock has been through so many revisions as I found that trying to draw an aikido or jujitsu leg/arm lock was creating problems when seperating the characters torso's and legs, as well as creating readability problems amongst the small mass of pixels. This lead me to come up with some other type of lock instead which is more readable than the ones before:

(old versions)
(http://i.imgur.com/Sx7brPY.gif) (http://i.imgur.com/Sx7brPY.gif)

The 1st level boss also has one of these moves he can execute on the player, but I'm hoping that this time round I can avoid any complicated overlays. I'm finding that the less overlays I have, the bigger the sprite. I've kept the 1 torso + 1 leg combination through out all the animations, though sometimes it's tempting to just put in a third overlay, but it's best to avoid any crazy look up tables, so I'm not ever going to do that.

Now - back to the boss!

I had to go back to the arm lock using a Jujitsu type.


The reaon for the change was because I realized with the other version, I would need a few frames to get both characters into that position and it needs to be quick for the playable characters. I dont want to have to create to many "getting into" frames for these anims and the other animation would definitely need a few so that it wouldn't look too choppy. It still needs a bit of tweaking so will fiish it tomorrow lunch time.

I'll use the other version for a boss character instead.

I enjoy the gfx showcased here as much as the game design descriptions. Thanks!

These are the new arm locks:

Torsion Lock:

(http://i.imgur.com/XMIB7ma.gif) (http://i.imgur.com/XMIB7ma.gif)

Straight Arm Lock:

(http://i.imgur.com/ZH8oTT2.gif) (http://i.imgur.com/ZH8oTT2.gif)

These would be executed after a successful parry. The player would then tap the fire button rapidly to cause damage. I'm hoping that these are readable enough.....

I created the kick animation for the boss, but it looks far too athletic, so I will save that animation and use it for another character. Instead - I will give him the same kick as the main characters:

(http://i.imgur.com/zPG0RLA.gif) (http://i.imgur.com/zPG0RLA.gif)

Works on shins, floored enemies and objects.

Hi,

Further update for the 1st level boss moves:

Normal Punches to uppercut finisher. DONE
Wrestler Splash (Air attack, but can also land on top of a knocked down player) DONE
Walk. DONE
Jump. DONE

Strangle combo (Grab move) STARTED
Kick (instant stun)STARTED

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not started:

Barge (Rushing attack = knock down)
Elbow (Behind attack = Knock down)
Throw

Strangle Hold (Ground Attack)
Double Attack (Move that performs on 2 players that are on either side of the boss)

Block
Dodge/duck/sway
Parry(Headlock Strangle)

Pick up weapons and objects too.

Thinking of calling the game "No Holds Barred" :) ......

Quote from: sigh on 23:59, 24 June 13Thinking of calling the game "No Holds Barred" :) ......

You might get Hulk Hogan knocking on your door  ;D

Quote from: romppainen on 01:08, 26 June 13
You might get Hulk Hogan knocking on your door  ;D

Oh yeah?! I'll back suplex his butt! Never seen that film actually:p

Finished animating the kick and am now working on his elbow move while watching Wimbledon.

Ha ha You arn't going to give him Tennis elbow are you!

Quote from: Puresox on 23:01, 26 June 13
Ha ha You arn't going to give him Tennis elbow are you!

You know....that's actually a really cool name for a tennis game:)

When I was a boy I had actually gotten Tetris elbow - from hours of tension while sitting on that cab...

Small update:

Elbow (Behind attack = Knock down)DONE
Kick (instant stun)DONE
Block DONE

Dodge/duck/sway STARTED
Strangle combo (Grab move strangle then punch player away) STARTED
Throw STARTED

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not started:

Barge (Rushing attack = knock down)
Strangle Hold (Ground Attack)
Double Attack (Move that performs on 2 players that are on either side of the boss)

Parry(Headlock Strangle)Change*

Use weapon
Throw object
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*The parry headlock will now either be an arm leg break on the player effecting either there movement(by slowing them done) or attacks(by making them weaker) for a while.

Not too sure if I mentioned this, but I am removing one of the weapon animations - the baseball bat swing. This weapon swing is now an overhead swing which means that it can be used with all type of weapons from knives, bats,chains etc. and has the benefit of being able to hit floored opponents.

Another benefit is that I might be able to delete some sprite torso's.

This chain swing made me wonder: will there be blood? Red blood?

I'm not too sure about blood or puking up when being hit, but there will be a hit effect as that will give the moves a more weighty feel.

Good, because otherwise Boots may not stock it :D

Got home late today so I wont finish the throw till the weekend:(
I've have already planned out the finishing move after he picks you up strangle shakes you twice, which I'm pleased about.

His parry has now been finalised and will now be a 2 frame bearhug that snaps the players back:)

@Gryzor. I would love to see Boots stock game :)

Also: no boobs on the cover. You've been warned.

Helloooo!

He can now dodge. Having to re-animate the strangle hold move in order to make the animation work with the punch finishing move. This means drawing an extra pair of legs. Also, the throw I animated will work better for using weapons instead, which is good news, but this means that I will have to come up with another idea for throwing.

I plan to get these solved over the weekend.

Re-animated the strangle and didn't like it, so I went back to the original idea. I had to spend a bit of time getting the finisher to work with it, but it looks fine now.

So what's left?

Boss:

Throw
Parry
Hit reactions
Ground Fighting
Bear hug (Parry)
Throw large object

I may have to re animate one move for the main male character which is his ground fighting move. This is in order to keep the animation timings the same as the female player and boss character.

Finished the Throw!

Now drawing the frame for throwing large objects which I'll finish tomorrow lunch time. I'll probably start on the hit reactions next. One thing about this boss - his big greedy torso is taking up a lot sheet space! Not too sure if I'll do another large torso boss.....


1) Mohawk punk gang                          - Residential area          Boss Type: HEAVY MALE
4) Female gang                                     - 2 floor music club       Boss Type: NORMAL FEMALE
3) Hoodie wearing, moped riding gang - The bridge                  Boss Type: NORMAL MALE
2) Football shirt wearing gang             -  Park,                           Boss Type: HEAVY FEMALE
5) Mask wearing gang                           - Underground Sewer: Boss Type: NORMAL MALE
6) Prison gang                                       - Prison                         Boss Type: NORMAL MALE

Quote from: sigh on 23:36, 27 June 13
You know....that's actually a really cool name for a tennis game:)

That's the name of a great serie of PC tennis game :)

Quote from: remax on 19:05, 12 August 13
That's the name of a great serie of PC tennis game :)

Just had a look! Cool looking game and interesting how the camera is in a fixed position and there is no scrolling what at all:)

I'm currently off work so will be spending a lot of time from tomorrow morning and the weeks ahead, finishing the boss anims. Didn't finish the throwing object so will do that tomorrow, then I will go straight onto the hit reactions:)

Bear hug - Started
Throw large object (work in progress)

Parry
Hit reactions
Ground Fighting

Throw large object frames is done.

Now starting the hit reactions as they are only one frame:

Global Hit Reactions which consist of the following:

Left hit pose
Right hit pose
K.O (airborne)pose
Straight hit pose
Stomach pose
K.O on floor pose

It looking more and more likely that I may need a 3rd Sheet for this guys torso!

I also need to do hit reaction anims of him being grabbed in a headlock, grabbed from behind, grabbed by the hair, head slammed (by the female) and choked!

I think this will be a very enjoyable boss to fight against.

These have now been completed:

Left hit pose
Right hit pose
K.O (airborne)pose
Straight hit pose
Stomach pose
K.O on floor pose

However - I have to animate the second part of the hit reactions:


Headlocked and punched in face (male player) - started
Arm locked  (by both players)
Choked from behind (by both players)
Hair grabbed and kneed in face (female player)
Ground fighting (by both players)
Choked out (by male player)
Head Bashed (by female player)
Being picked up from ground

That will be all the reaction completed for a large character. Once these are done, I can finally start animating the last few bits:)

Quick update:

Headlocked and punched in face (male player) - DONE
Hair grabbed and kneed in face (female player) - DONE
Ground fighting/pummel (by both players) - DONE

Head Bashed (by female player) - STARTED

Arm locked  (by both players)
Choked from behind (by both players)
Headlock choked out (by male player)
Being picked up from ground

So if you have  heavy/normal male/females, can you put a 'top-heavy female' in there too? ;)

Well, one can't discuss taste  ;)

Quote from: Gryzor on 17:31, 07 September 13
So if you have  heavy/normal male/females, can you put a 'top-heavy female' in there too? ;)

I think that should be possible as it would just be a case of expanding the chest area to create a large female version.

I'm really looking forward to finishing this large torso set. Things are going to be SOOOOOOooooo much quicker! When I traced the enemy animations from the main player animations it took no time at all! The backgrounds - I'm thinking of simplifying in order to have more interactivity with the backgrounds such as being able to jump on top of a car, bounce off a corner of a wall, more objects to smash the enemy into, stairs they can use etc.
This would make the players journey far more intesting and varied through the levels, though by doing this, the backgrounds would need to be less detailed.

A quick update on the hit reactions:


Head Bashed (by female player) - DONE
Arm locked  (by both players) -     DONE

Headlock choked out (by male player) - STARTED


Choked from behind (by both players)
Being picked up from ground


Will finish the Headlock choke today then start on the behind choke.

Okay,


Headlock choked out (by male player) - DONE
Choked from behind (male) - DONE

SO I have these left to do:


1) Choked from behind (female)
2) Being picked up from ground

I'm going to change the female version of "Choking the boss from behind" into a neck bite instead. I'll be working on this set throughout this week.

Then I can start these last few animation:

1) Parry
2) Bear Hug
3) Ground fight (strangle)
4) Double Attack

Please show us :)

I second [nb]and third[/nb] that. Pics please...  :)

Not quite the day I was expecting as I didn't finish the boss, due to having to redo some animations for the boss, male and female ground fighting attacks(below). I've saved some torso space which is good.

Ground slam. This move had been rather problematic due to the frames that I have available to create this animation. The torso and legs of the player would be drawn very differently if there was sprite space. Should probably make the animation faster.

(http://i.imgur.com/BxPojVq.gif) (http://i.imgur.com/BxPojVq.gif)

Face pound (male)

(http://i.imgur.com/jiGgaAT.gif) (http://i.imgur.com/jiGgaAT.gif)

Head bash

(http://i.imgur.com/hyhqsbr.gif) (http://i.imgur.com/hyhqsbr.gif)

So I have these left:

1) Being picked up from ground
2) Parry
3) Bear Hug
4) Double Attack

BRUTAL!
The face pound and head bash in particular!
* shudder *

Absolutely outstanding work, as always.

I'm going to play with the players reaction in regards to Tug's ground slam. As I've removed some torso's and legs, I may be able to add 1 or 2 leg sprites and that should do it.


After that, I will work on the "Being picked up from ground".

Quote from: sigh on 12:32, 30 September 13
As I've removed some torso's and legs....

Did you animate the blood draining from the body? :laugh:

It astounds me how you graphic guy's work out the frames of animation! Superb skill to have!!

These are so full of dynamism...

(http://i.imgur.com/aD5DV4S.gif)

Removed the bounce and sped up the animation. No need to draw extra body parts which I'm happy about so calling this done!

Brilliant stuff.
Possibly a *little* too fast, but superb regardless.

Heh heh!!


Looking at it on my computer at work and it does indeed look too fast. That's what happens when you work on something for too long. You just can't see it anymore! :laugh:

I'll add an extra frame at the end and that should do it.

I need to sort out the female reaction to do this and also her reaction to the strangle hold, which will be super quick to do.


I'm going to do the parry animation next. The parry is just one pose:)

I really liked the bounce but I also see how speed gives it a different style (more humorous actually). But yes, it's a tad fast :D

Quote from: sigh on 23:54, 30 September 13
(http://i.imgur.com/aD5DV4S.gif) (http://i.imgur.com/aD5DV4S.gif)

Removed the bounce and sped up the animation. No need to draw extra body parts which I'm happy about so calling this done!

...I liked the bounce more, along with the slower animation. The move was more "clarified".

I'm definitely making it slower, but I'm actually thinking having him hold the player by the neck instead of the feet, so I'll try that over the weekend.

I've now finished the following:

Parry
Double Attack (which isn't really an attack, but a stamping move that pushes the players back when he is attacked from both sides at the same time. Think "Smart Bomb" that doesn't cause any damage, but causes distance)
Being picked up from ground

Which means I have this left to do:

Bear Hug - which is an equivalent of the players armlocks.

Quote from: Ace on 21:44, 03 October 13
...I liked the bounce more, along with the slower animation. The move was more "clarified".

Same here.... Now there are a lot of GFX, now - sorry for not reading all posts - who is going to make code and music for that game?

Updated version: Saved a boss torso which is good news. I can now use the "picking up" frame from crouching and being thrown.

(http://i.imgur.com/vwfRFyG.gif)

Will start the bear hug tomorrow.

Absolutely fantastic.
Feels more fluid too.

Now that speed is perfect!  :)




Oh wait... it hasn't changed!!! It get's displayed in different speed using different computers!!!  :o   :laugh:

Progress is coming along just nice  :)  When that guy bounces off the floor, would be awesome if the screen shook as seen in Savage... lol


What's the game gonna be called? Do you have a programmer yet? Have you considered ports to other 8-bits?


Questions, questions, question  :P ;)  haha


How about 'Renegade Rage' or 'Shades of Renegade' for the name  ;D

Quote from: ukmarkh on 20:27, 16 October 13
Do you have a programmer yet?

Yes I am doing it.

I have been talking with sigh about parts of the design related to code and talking about what is possible.

I have been prototyping bits of code, testing things out, plenty of planning to get it right.
I know the ai is the most important so I am working hard on that.

Quote from: arnoldemu on 08:50, 17 October 13
Yes I am doing it.

I have been talking with sigh about parts of the design related to code and talking about what is possible.

I have been prototyping bits of code, testing things out, plenty of planning to get it right.
I know the ai is the most important so I am working hard on that.

That's fantastic news! I can't think of anyone else better suited to such a project.

Munchausen is also helping with the programming too:)

I'm very close to giving arnoldemu and Munchausen an animation demo of how the game will play, but I need to make sure I give them EVERYTHING that can happen in the game, which is what the first level will demonstrate. This will also include the title and menu screen(which I have been working on), so we have a complete understanding of how the whole game will function.

I dont want to give the programmers any nasty surprises half way through the creation, which is why the design must be clear and thorough from the beginning.
The clearer my design - the less headache it will be for all involved.

Games should be fun to make, not a chore:)

Quote from: ukmarkh on 20:27, 16 October 13
What's the game gonna be called? 

"No Holds Barred".

Quote from: ukmarkh on 20:27, 16 October 13
Have you considered ports to other 8-bits?

Other systems like the speccy and c64 would need a complete graphical change. A lot of work indeed!
I think that the MSX would probably be the only machine that could have a more or less direct port as it's also Z80 and has colour?

Anyway.... I'm not even thinking about that right now:D



            

Quote from: arnoldemu on 08:50, 17 October 13
Yes I am doing it.

Nice!

Well, I really hope you will finish your Glory Holes 3D (ROM) game though. I have the feeling that I will like it :-)

Cancel that. Reread the thread to find out you have discussed music. Sorry

Yeah, but we could all do with a high level summary once a week or so, just so people don't have to read through the entire thread.

Quote from: Puresox on 18:54, 19 October 13
Cancel that. Reread the thread to find out you have discussed music. Sorry

Quote from: ukmarkh on 20:06, 19 October 13
Yeah, but we could all do with a high level summary once a week or so, just so people don't have to read through the entire thread.

??

This latest piece of animation looks really plastic. I love it! And yes, if the screen shook it'd be quite an effect...


Please, guys, if this ever gets finished, PLEASE do a commercial release!

Quote from: sigh on 12:01, 17 October 13Munchausen is also helping with the programming too:)

Yes, though I'm not really sure arnoldemu needs my help as I'm still a rookie with the CPC, and he is, well, he is arnoldemu! I've been really wanting to do a project with my favourite machine, and sigh's graphics are astounding so I'm happy to help where I can. I've got another project in the works that should be a nice warm up for this one too - while so far z80 programming is straightforward (by day I work with x86 assembler), the other parts of the CPC still confuse me frequently enough.

Quote from: sigh on 12:01, 17 October 13
I'm very close to giving arnoldemu and Munchausen an animation demo of how the game will play, but I need to make sure I give them EVERYTHING that can happen in the game, which is what the first level will demonstrate. This will also include the title and menu screen(which I have been working on), so we have a complete understanding of how the whole game will function.

I dont want to give the programmers any nasty surprises half way through the creation, which is why the design must be clear and thorough from the beginning.
The clearer my design - the less headache it will be for all involved.

Games should be fun to make, not a chore:)

Awesome!

Been working on the animated demo which has also been helping me fine tune the game mechanics. Funnily enough, simulating the 2 wide pixel scrolling, along with the sprite walking has been really tricky to get looking right! I've messed it up on the first 2 screens of the background, but will aim to get it correct when it scrolls onto the new screen.
I'm really looking forward to putting on the sound effects for the demo which I'll take from some amstrad games.

Music:

One thing that I'm questioning is the music for the game. I had hummed many tunes into a recording device that sounded sort of rocky/funky, but the game play pacing so far seems a little slow for that type of music to match. This made me realise that with the sort of background design and moveset, it needs something different as in order to provide the right atmosphere for the game.

I decided to play some game tracks over the animation as guide:


YEAH!
Target Renegade - works really well.

OKAY(ISH)
Double Dragon 1 and 2, Combat Tribes

NOPE!
Renegade, Streets of Rage series, Undercover Cops,

So I've been trawling youtube for soundtracks and instrumentals to find "scary/eerie" music. There's been some interesting dark instrumentals from, rock, hip hop/grime and some dubstep. I dont think that "one" particular type of music is going to fit with the whole game and it may have to be level dependant.

For the demo, I'll be using an instrumental track. Although it wont be a 8 bit, it will at least set the tone of the for that particular level as well as the game.

Okay. Here are some examples I've been digging up:

Go to 0:30

Hard Scary hip-hop beat {Rap} Instrumental *Original* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcqPq5189VQ#ws)

Regarding this particular track (and most of this type of music in that genre) they're very "loop" orientated. I really would like to avoid having the music looped as it doesn't really tell a story when created in that way. I also wouldn't want the music playing continuously through the level as this spoils the atmosphere. This track does have a good eerie tone to it.

This is what's really good about the first stage and second stage music of Target Renegade on the CPC, as they're not really looped, though regarding the first stage it's definitely out of synch when compared to the Spectrum version.

The tension on the second stage is my favourite as there are parts when the music stops playing completely and the only sound is the punching and kicking. Not too sure if this was intentional but it's such an eerie moment. The Spectrum version plays the track all the way through. I much prefer the CPC version because of the empty space that comes in and out. It would be great to get a structure in the music tracks where there is full on music, then some quite moments where the music is subtle and then completely empty space where there is no music at all, iin all the tracks.

Go To 3:17 for a brilliant example of this on the second stage of Target Renegade. It incorporates all of these. The music stops playing at 3:47 then comes back in at 4:05 but quietly. Then empty space again on 4:50, then it comes back in again on  5:13 but this time with the bassline. Really cool structure!

Target Renegade Amstrad CPC (longplay) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLhmHQDo_iE#)

I don't think you need something scary/eerie - this is not Ghosts'n'Goblins, is it? More like gritty, however this translates into music :D


[Edit] oh you posted some vids, let's watch them :)

Target Renegade had the soundtrack spot-on. I always loved it. Oh yes, that's gritty :D


The first video music is a nice tune (Halloween-inspired, no doubt), but again I don't see it fitting the atmosphere...

Quote from: Gryzor on 18:51, 25 October 13
Target Renegade had the soundtrack spot-on. I always loved it. Oh yes, that's gritty :D


The first video music is a nice tune (Halloween-inspired, no doubt), but again I don't see it fitting the atmosphere...

Hmmm. The Target Renegade feels more eerie than gritty to me. A Skrillex track has a gritty feel about, but I think that sort of composition may be too noisy for what I'm after.

But yeah - this ain't Ghost n Goblins!  :laugh:

Maybe it's a definition issue? "Eerie" is supposed to be "strange" and "scary"; I don't think TR is neither?

Quote from: Gryzor on 19:06, 25 October 13
Maybe it's a definition issue? "Eerie" is supposed to be "strange" and "scary"; I don't think TR is neither?

Isn't eerie more "unsettling" than either of those?

Well - I'll change the term to "unsettling" music instead :)

That was actually Google's definition (it doesn't name the source, but I think it's accurate enough).


Unsettling is, I think, a superset of 'eerie'. Unsettling can also be a set of tones and notes, not even a tune, whereas (for me at least!) eerie necessarily involves the supernatural. Dunno, maybe it's the movies I watch :D

Quote from: sigh on 19:11, 25 October 13
Well - I'll change the term to "unsettling" music instead :)

I think it depends on where and when the game is set.

For example, New York in the 80s would sound awesome with some Public Enemy type music.  LA in the early 90s would suit some kind of more rock music etc etc.

Being that I'm based inthe UK, it has more of a european vibe. I'm not really bothered by the music matching the setting (well..I am to a certain extent), but more matching the gameplay. For instance, if you open up 2 versions of youtube, one with the gameplay showing Target Renegade and the other with a piece of music from Double Dragon.
If you switch off the music on TR and watch it with the DD soundtrack - it doesn't match the pacing of the game. So I think that the pacing maybe more important than the setting itself?

But we'll see when I finish animating the demo.

Quote from: sigh on 20:02, 25 October 13
Being that I'm based inthe UK, it has more of a european vibe.

I said New York as an example because Renegade is really the game of the Warriors film, but unofficial of course. And I love the music in the game ;)

And yes, pacing is crucial and a very good way of thinking about it.

Haha, I was thinking of Public Enemy myself last night (listening some Anthrax because of the other thread and MacDeath, then a collab they did with Public Enemy, then Can't Truss It... :D ). But by the time you have converted it to a chiptune I wonder how much of the initial style will be left...

Working on the animated gameplay demo and it's going well.

I'm about to animate the second part and it's bought up 2 questions on scrolling while the sprite is moving:


1) In a 2 player game, which character has the priority in regards to activating the scrolling? Is it one or both?

2) Can the background scrolling be a different frame rate to the sprite speed? Currently the whole game demo is running at 25FPS, but due to the backgrounds 2 wide pixel movement, the background moves really fast when they are walking and needs to be slowed down. Here is the current speed:

25FPS. 2 wide pixel scroll

(http://i.imgur.com/KiYDjq5.gif) (http://i.imgur.com/KiYDjq5.gif)

Here is the background scrolling at 12.5FPS with the sprite still at 25FPS:

(http://i.imgur.com/kO3LAGW.gif) (http://i.imgur.com/kO3LAGW.gif)

....and here is the speed of the background I would like to have moving at 18FPS. The sprite would still need to animate at 25FPS.

(http://i.imgur.com/zGMXzNB.gif) (http://i.imgur.com/zGMXzNB.gif)


If the top animation was to be used. Then I would have to remove the walk entirely and replace it with a run animation.

The anim in the middle with 12.5FPS scroll is my least favourite.

The last animation is a good compromise between scroll speed and smoothness. If it's possible to mix a 25FPS sprite on a 18FPS scrolling background then that would be good.
However, if all the sprite animations also needs to be 18FPS, then for walking, jumping and dashing animations, they look okay at 18FPS, but the fighting moves look horrible and slow! So - would it be possible to leave the fighting animations at 25FPS and only have the walking, jumping and dashing at 18FPS?
The reason for this, is if the player decides to execute those particular 3 locomotion moves while scrolling (which they definitely will) then it will match the frame rate of the background.

If this is too complicated, then I will settle with the top animation and replace the walk animations with a run cycle instead.

I think the second one looks best, and it should (?!) be easier to program if the background is 12.5fps and the main sprite 25fps (background once every 4 frames, main sprite once every 2).

Nice transit van btw :)

I also most like the 2nd result...

Quote from: redbox on 14:31, 31 October 13
I think the second one looks best, and it should (?!) be easier to program if the background is 12.5fps and the main sprite 25fps (background once every 4 frames, main sprite once every 2).

Nice transit van btw :)

Quote from: Devilmarkus on 14:36, 31 October 13
I also most like the 2nd result...

Really? The second result is my least favourite. (But it seems to play more smoothly in the browser for some reason)

Dynamite Dux. This speed is the same (I think) as the first scrolling test:
Go to 00:40
Dynamite Dux per Amstrad CPC by Ataru'75 [008] 1/2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhDhnKmjNIk#)
It's fast,  but as it's really smooth and it makes the whole movement of the game feel fluid.

Here is Dragon Ninja. I think that this is using the second method with the background scrolling at 12.5 FPS.
Go to 03:25
[AMSTRAD CPC] Bad Dudes VS Dragon Ninja - Longplay (Part 1 of 3) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZE5VHT8TBA#)
When the game isn't scrolling the sprite movement feels smooth. When it starts scrolling, the game feels less fluid than Dynamite Dux and slightly sluggish.

Here is Double Dragon 6128. Everything is moving at 4 wide pixels, but as there isn't a "long" stretch of scrolling from one part of the screen to another, it doesn't feel like the pixel movements are distracting, but it's not the smoothness I am looking for.
Go to 01:10
[AMSTRAD CPC] Double Dragon Longplay part 1/4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnAYiCYcu-U#)

Lastly we have Renegade which has no scrolling, but sprite movement is perfectly fluid:
[AMSTRAD CPC] Renegade - Longplay & Review (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc8GDlw2nys#)

I'm leaving out the Double Dragon scrolling as it's not what I want to see for this game. Also, the Dragon Ninja method is smoother than the DD method. So I will be concentrating on the other 3:

Dynamite Dux: The problem using this method, is that the level will be over  too quickly!
However this could be remedied by having a decent amount of enemies per level in order to space out the scrolling and give balance to the pacing.
This scrolling speed will effect the feel of the game dramatically as it will now feel like a "fast paced beat em up".
Stage 2 of Target Renegade has roughly 16 enemies on the whole level and depending on how good you are, the player can complete it at around 2 and half minutes.

Dragon Ninja: With this method, I just feel that the overall experience would feel choppy. I'm not to sure I would be happy about using this method.

Renegade: Desperately want to avoid the whole flick scrolling method. However - Flick scroll vs Dragon Ninja scroll....not to sure which is preferable.

Hi sigh,

First of all, congrats for your great work.
I have also heard that arnoldemu is working on the code for this project, which is a guarantee of quality.

Let me some comments about the scroll:

The first option is the best without question (25fps for all). The scroll is a bit fast, but smooth. Considering that this kind of games does not scroll continuously, a scrolling speed slightly faster than desirable is not a big problem. Note that games with scroll at 12,5/18fps there are many on CPC, while smooth scrolls are a rarity. On the other hand, the smoothness in the scroll (when scrolling more than 1 pixel wide) is more crucial than in other aspects such as sprite animations, etc ... because it affects almost the full screen. See a game with a smooth scroll gives a feeling of quality and smoothness to the whole game. Moreover, 2 wide pixel scroll at 25fps is the same speed as 1 wide pixel scroll at 50fps, which for a large screen area is not too fast.

About mixing different sprites and scroll speeds, this is possible, but should be planned so by the coder from the beginning.
I remember some Amiga games got a great result using this tech. For example, "Battle Squadron".

Amiga Longplay [033] Battle Squadron (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4LnzE8Ea3g#)

Your ship and the shots are at 50fps while the scroll and enemies at 25fps. In practice, you hardly notice that some things are less smooth than others, because precisely the elements that get you attention (your ship and shots) are those going smoother. And the scroll could not go smoother at 50fps keeping the same speed because it is pixel by pixel.

Not long ago, I did a test with something similar on CPC, where enemies and scroll are at 25fps and your ship and shots at 50fps with a great result.

Regards

Other consideration about the scroll. If I remember correctly, games such as Double Dragon only scrolls forward: you are fighting in a zone without scroll, then you defeat the enemies, then scrolls slightly forward until new enemies appear, and again fighting without scroll, etc...

Something I do not like in a horizontal scrolling games is when I have little area of vision to where I'm moving. There are enough games with this problem, even some great games like Turrican.

Amiga Longplay [061] Turrican (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70xp5mnsx1A#)

You're not even in the center of the screen but a little further in the direction where you are moving. Why such big viewing area for what is left behind? I want to have more viewing about that is to come.

Going back to your game, scrolling at 25fps gives you the opportunity to improve this, because the character does not necessarily have to move at the same speed as the scroll. The scroll can go faster than the character so that the viewing area increases progressively in the right direction with its forward motion.

Quote from: Rhino on 23:27, 31 October 13
Other consideration about the scroll. If I remember correctly, games such as Double Dragon only scrolls forward: you are fighting in a zone without scroll, then you defeat the enemies, then scrolls slightly forward until new enemies appear, and again fighting without scroll, etc...

Something I do not like in a horizontal scrolling games is when I have little area of vision to where I'm moving. There are enough games with this problem, even some great games like Turrican.

You're not even in the center of the screen but a little further in the direction where you are moving. Why such big viewing area for what is left behind? I want to have more viewing about that is to come.

Going back to your game, scrolling at 25fps gives you the opportunity to improve this, because the character does not necessarily have to move at the same speed as the scroll. The scroll can go faster than the character so that the viewing area increases progressively in the right direction with its forward motion.

This is quite a tricky one to sort out due to the 2 player mode, as the players could be anywhere on the screen when it starts to scroll. I think in games like double dragon, you can walk in the opposite direction, then walk back again where the scrolling will then activate at a certain point in the screen.

Quote from: Rhino on 21:15, 31 October 13
The first option is the best without question (25fps for all). The scroll is a bit fast, but smooth. Considering that this kind of games does not scroll continuously, a scrolling speed slightly faster than desirable is not a big problem.

I'm leaning towards this one too. The thing is - I'll need to draw out more frames of animation for the run cycle as there isn't anything that I can re use from the existing set. Really not happy about that as this will mean an extra 4 torso's per character, but more importantly a new set of legs which could be around 8 frames in total. That's A LOT of new sprite parts to introduce and I'm already at the limit of the current sheets. I'm going to animate the runs tomorrow for all the characters and we will have to see if they fit in memory or not.

If it comes to the worse - I think I'd rather have them walk in the 25FPS background rather than the 12.5.

It's very difficult, and you also have to consider the moonwalking effect - i.e., the foot that is on the ground needs to stay on that bit of ground, otherwise it will look like he is moonwalking.


So with a 2 pixel scroll, that means the foot on the ground has to move back at 2 pixels per frame.


You might be able to get away with a fast walk in my opinion, the player is likely to be in a bit of a hurry to do whatever his aim is in the game!


Shouldn't the foot that is further away a couple of pixels higher, because of the game perspective?

Quote from: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 11:03, 01 November 13
Shouldn't the foot that is further away a couple of pixels higher, because of the game perspective?

Yes it's a pixel higher. Anymore and it starts looking weird.

Quote from: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 11:03, 01 November 13
It's very difficult, and you also have to consider the moonwalking effect - i.e., the foot that is on the ground needs to stay on that bit of ground, otherwise it will look like he is moonwalking.

So with a 2 pixel scroll, that means the foot on the ground has to move back at 2 pixels per frame.

You might be able to get away with a fast walk in my opinion, the player is likely to be in a bit of a hurry to do whatever his aim is in the game!

Speaking of moon walking, I was looking at Streets of Rage on the megadrive.
The background looks as though it's moving at the same speed as the first background scroll I posted. Very fast, but the play background is quite big so it's not distracting. You can also see that the character moves faster than the scrolling:

Go to 1:40.

Mega Drive Longplay [002] Streets of Rage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMsBkXGDix4#)

I roughed out a run, but there's something about having the characters run all over the place that I just dont like....

I've decided to continue with the 25FPS scrolling keeping the walk cycle.

Of course, the 25fps choice must be confirmed by the coder, because that speed can be difficult to achieve depending on the amount and size of the sprites.

I guess arnoldemu has given the green light about it. Would be possible to talk to Kevin about the sprite painting techniques he plan to use? :)

Quote from: Rhino on 13:49, 01 November 13
Of course, the 25fps choice must be confirmed by the coder, because that speed can be difficult to achieve depending on the amount and size of the sprites.

I guess arnoldemu has given the green light about it. Would be possible to talk to Kevin about the sprite painting techniques he plan to use? :)

For me it's not a problem to code, it's how smooth the result will be and at this time I can't fully answer the question.

I am working on various techniques, all of which can and will probably change as I refine and evolve my ideas.

I will be testing some ideas in terms of sprite drawing, scrolling, ai etc.

There are some things I have not tried before. I have plans of how to do it, but as always I will probably need to rethink them a few
times to get the best result.

great looking. do you still consider a 2 players mode ?

Quote from: kawickboy on 12:47, 02 November 13
great looking. do you still consider a 2 players mode ?

Yes. It has always been 2 player.

In respect to which caracter initiates scrolling, I think it should be both. Scroll as far as possible with the second sprite remains x pixels in the screen. No reason to restrict it to one of two, really.


As for the speed, you're right, the first version goes too fast. I like v2. However, replacing walking with running would be interesting - it would probably give a different outlook to the whole game I think!

Looking at double dragon and streets of rage, it looks as though either character will initiate the scrolling when they reach 3/4 of the screen.

I've been working on the demo, all this week and I've found that the Dynamite Dux scrolling (the fast but smooth) is without a doubt, definitely the best option as the gameplay feels so much smoother and polished with this type of scroll. The characters aren't going to be moving in long stretches like in the gif I posted, so it shouldn't be distracting.

I've finished 3 sections of the demo so far which have demostrated the different fighting moves, enviroment interactions and also advanced combat such as the parrying, counter attacks, dodging and blocking.
I'm currently finishing the demo section of using weapons and objects, where afterwards, I will be animating a demo of the first level boss fight. I will then have to demo the HUD and user interface.

Update:

Getting through the demo and happy with the progress so far. I have 2 more screens to do, and then the UI and HUD demos.
However - I'm still trying to find different music styles:

Flash Point Soundtrack - Unknown Track (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2ClGuQWaks#)
This is a fantastic martial arts film with this particular sound track haveing an incredible tension to it.

Scorpio's Theme - Lalo Schifrin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf63m4Ul_Nc#)
I love the silence in the drums and the dramatic escalation starting iin the middle of the track.

In the House, In a Heartbeat - John Murphy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST2H8FWDvEA#)
Very menacing. The volume rising to new heights could be nice to have on the game.



All though these tracks dont have many "total silent" spots, they do have a good mood to them.

I don't particlarly like chinese-style soundtracks, but after the first few seconds of Flash Point I could see how it could really fit. Even the loop - the tune ending, a few seconds of silence, then restarting - would be great.


To be frank I didn't much like Franco, and I can't imagine how it could fit.


28 Days Later is a favorite movie of mine, and the soundtrack gives me the chills every time. The rising tension is amazing[nb]especially in the scene where the protagonist goes berzerk, essentially turning into an enraged maniac[/nb], but I think it's a bit more dramatic than you would need?

Quote from: sigh on 02:51, 20 November 13
In the House, In a Heartbeat - John Murphy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST2H8FWDvEA#)
Very menacing. The volume rising to new heights could be nice to have on the game.

This is a sublime piece of music and think it would really add to the tension.  Not sure how someone would do it on the CPC though...?

As a side-note, it's very interesting to see the how composers who are heavily influenced by early-mid 90s British music (John Murphy, Clint Mansell etc) have used this in film scores.  If your game is set in the UK (and maybe in the 90s?) it would make for a very nice nod towards said influence.

Quote from: Gryzor on 10:13, 20 November 13
I don't particlarly like chinese-style soundtracks, but after the first few seconds of Flash Point I could see how it could really fit. Even the loop - the tune ending, a few seconds of silence, then restarting - would be great.


To be frank I didn't much like Franco, and I can't imagine how it could fit.


28 Days Later is a favorite movie of mine, and the soundtrack gives me the chills every time. The rising tension is amazing[nb]especially in the scene where the protagonist goes berzerk, essentially turning into an enraged maniac[/nb], but I think it's a bit more dramatic than you would need?

What I really like about the "Scorpios Theme" is how that menacing deep base kicks in at around 1:25. It all feels so dangerous and aggressive.


28 Days Later is very intense indeed and you could be right that it maybe overkill, but I wonder how it would feel fighting towards the end of level with that sort of intensity. Even have it so it escalates that it ends up drowning the actual sound effects.

Quote from: redbox on 11:38, 20 November 13
This is a sublime piece of music and think it would really add to the tension.  Not sure how someone would do it on the CPC though...?

Yeah - I'm not really trying to replicate these sort of tracks on the CPC; I'm more trying to establish the mood, tone and atmosphere of what the music could be like while playing.

"Even have it so it escalates that it ends up drowning the actual sound effects."

Wow, what a beautiful idea.

The story so far.


The demo; I have three more game play sections to demonstrate. Working on this demo, I've had to revisit the game play mechanics and scoring which has now been simplified and works much better. I'm really pleased with the outcome as the score mechanic is going to be a lot of fun to play. This however does mean that I willl now need to redesign the HUD. I'm also having deal with a lot of "what ifs?".
"What ifs?" are basically game play mechanics that need to be taken into consideration so it doesn't break the game:


1) Player 1 holds an enemy from behind.
2) Player 2 punches held enemy.


What if - Player 2 flykicks the enemy or uses a weapon on the enemy instead of punching? Does only the enemy fall, or does both the player and enemy fall?


That was a very basic and easy example, but I have a long list of such situations that were very hard to figure out, that had come up while working on the demo. This demo has been incredibly helpful for these reasons and some of these problems that have come up have taken days and sometimes weeks before the problem is solved, or in some cases, removing that particular mechanic from the entire game.


Can anyone point me to a simple to use music program where I can create some CPC music?

So glad to see this progressing nicely...


As for the what-ifs, I'm sure you can get some decent feedback by asking here :)

Quote from: sigh on 14:59, 02 December 13
Can anyone point me to a simple to use music program where I can create some CPC music?

Well, this is what we actually really lack on CPC. I don't know one. But if you want to get the best results and don't mind to take time to learn how it works, then the Arkos Tracker on PC is probably the best choice. Would be Starkos on CPC.

Quote from: TFM on 17:33, 05 December 13

Well, this is what we actually really lack on CPC. I don't know one.

Ahhh......

Quote from: TFM on 17:33, 05 December 13

But if you want to get the best results and don't mind to take time to learn how it works, then the Arkos Tracker on PC is probably the best choice. Would be Starkos on CPC.

Had a look on youtube for for some tutorials but found none. I will download it after the animation demo is done, but I will be using some place holder sound effects from other games for now to put onto the demo. I'll most likely use the Dirty Harry's "Scorpio's Theme" for now as that's the sort of mood I would like for the game.

Demo is still going on and I'd probably need 1 or 2 days to finish of the game play as I have 2 more sections left to do.


One of the things that has me wondering is about fonts. I'll need to create a font in mode 0 and mode 1. However - I was wondering if there is a mode 0 and 1 font that is native to the CPC so that I don't have to waste sprite sheet space in creating them. This would be helpful as that would mean that there wouldn't have to be any code created in regards to formatting the font (like creating the correct amount of space between words and letters).


I'm currently creating a mode 0 font for this demo but it' takes an incredible amount of time when it comes to creating words. For the demo I've just been creating the sentences in my paint program for now.


The game play screen will need mode 0 fonts and the hud will need mode 1 fonts.

About fonts... you don't have to paint all 256 characters, just paint what you need. That saves RAM.


Yes, for real beauty you should make fonts for Mode 1 and 0 separated.


However if you're fine with a mono color font, then you can use the font of the system, it's located in the lower ROM between &3800 and &3FFF.


Some people don't like to see the system font in games / demos, because it may make an not professional impression. This is due to the fact that we grow up with prods using own character sets / fonts. So our mind tells us: No system font --> Must be good!


Personally I don't mind the system font at all, but a lot of people do. So in final stage an own font is probably an good idea.

Your MODE 0 font (I'm assuming 4x8 pixels) doesn't have to be 16 colours either - you could define it in half the RAM in 4 colours (and indeed the text drawing routine could set the upper bits, so you get four colour variants of the font, if your palette is suitably arranged). That, alongside only defining <=96 characters can save some RAM (<=0.5KB RAM for the font) to implement a MODE 1 font (again, <=96 characters).


Alternatively, you could define a 6-pixel wide 4-colour font, and use it both in MODE 0 and 1, but you'd have to experiment with that to see if you liked the effect.

Quote from: TFM on 17:47, 19 December 13
About fonts... you don't have to paint all 256 characters, just paint what you need. That saves RAM.


Yes, for real beauty you should make fonts for Mode 1 and 0 separated.


However if you're fine with a mono color font, then you can use the font of the system, it's located in the lower ROM between &3800 and &3FFF.


Some people don't like to see the system font in games / demos, because it may make an not professional impression. This is due to the fact that we grow up with prods using own character sets / fonts. So our mind tells us: No system font --> Must be good!


Personally I don't mind the system font at all, but a lot of people do. So in final stage an own font is probably an good idea.

I'm only using caps at this current time, but I'm interested in checking out the system font. Does this system font work in both mode 0 and 1?

Quote from: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 18:19, 19 December 13
Your MODE 0 font (I'm assuming 4x8 pixels) doesn't have to be 16 colours either - you could define it in half the RAM in 4 colours (and indeed the text drawing routine could set the upper bits, so you get four colour variants of the font, if your palette is suitably arranged). That, alongside only defining <=96 characters can save some RAM (<=0.5KB RAM for the font) to implement a MODE 1 font (again, <=96 characters).


Alternatively, you could define a 6-pixel wide 4-colour font, and use it both in MODE 0 and 1, but you'd have to experiment with that to see if you liked the effect.

My font it currently 8x6.  I'll leave it like this for now for the demo, but I'll need to create something smaller and still readable.
I may use the system font and an original font.


The system font would be used for the story text and the original for hud and UI.

Quote from: sigh on 19:51, 19 December 13
I'm only using caps at this current time, but I'm interested in checking out the system font. Does this system font work in both mode 0 and 1?

Yes, it works in all modes, because it's just a 8x8 pixel bit mask (0 or 1). So you have 8 bytes, every bytes contains 8 pixel (equals a bit for every pixel) from left to right. The 8 bytes are shown in Y from up to down.


For every mode there is another display routine, but they all use the same font.

Quote from: TFM on 17:47, 19 December 13
About fonts... you don't have to paint all 256 characters, just paint what you need. That saves RAM.

I have tools that will examine all the strings in the program and work out which characters are needed and only store those.
So it is ok to create a whole font, not worry about what chars are used, change the strings as needed and use the tool to generate the result.
Much easier :)

Quote from: arnoldemu on 10:27, 20 December 13
I have tools that will examine all the strings in the program and work out which characters are needed and only store those.
So it is ok to create a whole font, not worry about what chars are used, change the strings as needed and use the tool to generate the result.
Much easier :)

Okay. I'll carry on as is.


There are a couple of letters giving me problems, namely "W" and "M" in wide pixel mode 0. They're currently 10x6. I'm going to have to look at some other games to see how they handle those particular characters, as I want them to be readable in an 8x6 format.

I'm going to create one font style. Due to the mode 0 pixels, the words will end up having a mixture of lower case and upper case letters. It may end up a little weird looking, but I think that's the way to go.

If you know that it will look weird, then don't wast time to draw it... Chose Mode 0 upper only, or Mode 1 font + splited modes.

Quote from: sigh on 17:30, 20 December 13
I'm going to create one font style. Due to the mode 0 pixels, the words will end up having a mixture of lower case and upper case letters. It may end up a little weird looking, but I think that's the way to go.

I have sent you a font :)

Quote from: sigh on 13:52, 31 October 13....and here is the speed of the background I would like to have moving at 18FPS. The sprite would still need to animate at 25FPS.

With a 50 Hz CRT monitor, an image whatsoever is shown every 20ms.

• Display a new image every 20ms and you get an ultra smooth 50fps animation.
• Display a new image every 40ms, you get a smooth 25fps animation.

So far, so good: anything moving at 24fps+ will cheat the human brain to see smoothness, butterflies and unicorns.

• Display a new image every 60ms, you get 16.66fps. Brain will notice it is being cheated upon, but being focused on a saving a 25fps sprite from being beaten by bad guys, that would still work I think.
• Display a new image every 80ms, you get 12.50fps. It's going to be reaaally hard to distract the brain from the fact that you don't even try to cheat it. It might also respond, eventually, with angry messages online or ... seizure.

Looking at your animated GIF (a few pages back), the 25fps scroll is much too fast, the 12.5fps much too slow. The GIF at 18fps is the only one looking good with the walking animation, except that this refresh rate is not really possible (unless adding stuttering ie. variable image refresh rate, or fugly tearing artifacts to the mix: don't). Hence this post, so we might have the chance to see a new GIF simulation at 16.6ms :)

Anyway, the most important now, is M.Jones your real name? Can I have an autograph anyway? :)

Quote from: TotO on 18:19, 20 December 13
If you know that it will look weird, then don't wast time to draw it... Chose Mode 0 upper only, or Mode 1 font + splited modes.

Yes your right.

Quote from: arnoldemu on 18:39, 20 December 13
I have sent you a font :)

Great font! I modified the lowercase font by reducing the height from 7 pixels to 5 pixels on some of the letters. This means that all the letters are now the same height. I also turned them all into capitals. So the size of the letters are now 6x5.
Thanks!

Quote from: Grim on 01:29, 21 December 13
With a 50 Hz CRT monitor, an image whatsoever is shown every 20ms.

   
• Display a new image every 20ms and you get an ultra smooth 50fps animation.
• Display a new image every 40ms, you get a smooth 25fps animation.

So far, so good: anything moving at 24fps+ will cheat the human brain to see smoothness, butterflies and unicorns.

   
• Display a new image every 60ms, you get 16.66fps. Brain will notice it is being cheated upon, but being focused on a saving a 25fps sprite from being beaten by bad guys, that would still work I think.
• Display a new image every 80ms, you get 12.50fps. It's going to be reaaally hard to distract the brain from the fact that you don't even try to cheat it. It might also respond, eventually, with angry messages online or ... seizure.

Looking at your animated GIF (a few pages back), the 25fps scroll is much too fast, the 12.5fps much too slow. The GIF at 18fps is the only one looking good with the walking animation, except that this refresh rate is not really possible (unless adding stuttering ie. variable image refresh rate, or fugly tearing artifacts to the mix: don't). Hence this post, so we might have the chance to see a new GIF simulation at 16.6ms :)

Anyway, the most important now, is M.Jones your real name? Can I have an autograph anyway? :)

I'm not M.Jones :) .

Regarding the scrolling - anything below 18 fps just looks too choppy for my liking and is a definite no no. Although the 25FPS is quite fast in the gif, a long stretch with them walking for that amount of time without enemies would not happen. Beat em ups are usually:

Walk for a bit
Fight for a while
walk a bit more
fight for a while.....

There will be a transition period when the characters will walk 1 full screen (256 width)to access the next level (like Double Dragon), but that's as much length they will probably travel without other things happening on screen.

Above all the different musics that have been proposed here, I definitively vote for this one from sigh.
yes to the recurring melody
yes to the drums
yes to the bassline
that is to say... 3 voices, exactly what a AY-3-8910 need to eat !


Hard Scary hip-hop beat {rap} Instrumental - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcqPq5189VQ#ws)

Quote from: sigh on 18:32, 25 October 13

Okay. Here are some examples I've been digging up:

Go to 0:30

Hard Scary hip-hop beat {Rap} Instrumental *Original* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcqPq5189VQ#ws)

Regarding this particular track (and most of this type of music in that genre) they're very "loop" orientated. I really would like to avoid having the music looped as it doesn't really tell a story when created in that way. I also wouldn't want the music playing continuously through the level as this spoils the atmosphere. This track does have a good eerie tone to it.

This is what's really good about the first stage and second stage music of Target Renegade on the CPC, as they're not really looped, though regarding the first stage it's definitely out of synch when compared to the Spectrum version.

The tension on the second stage is my favourite as there are parts when the music stops playing completely and the only sound is the punching and kicking. Not too sure if this was intentional but it's such an eerie moment. The Spectrum version plays the track all the way through. I much prefer the CPC version because of the empty space that comes in and out. It would be great to get a structure in the music tracks where there is full on music, then some quite moments where the music is subtle and then completely empty space where there is no music at all, iin all the tracks.

Go To 3:17 for a brilliant example of this on the second stage of Target Renegade. It incorporates all of these. The music stops playing at 3:47 then comes back in at 4:05 but quietly. Then empty space again on 4:50, then it comes back in again on  5:13 but this time with the bassline. Really cool structure!

Target Renegade Amstrad CPC (longplay) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLhmHQDo_iE#)

Not bad, but.... a bit slow for an action game... good for approaching a boss maybe...


Some ideas...


Iron Maiden - 2 Minutes to midnight 8-bit Remix (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drvrfKfscXU#ws)


and


8-Bit Metal Shit: Amon Amarth - War of the Gods (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBTlqcndwv8#)


Some are well here...


Testament - Into The Pit (8 Bit) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT3kC9nhWfA#)




Hope you like it.  :)

The last 2 tracks has some cool drum patterns. It would be interesting to hear how the tune would feel if there was a construct a build up before hitting a crescendo, that would incorporate a rhythm similar to the last track.

I've been trawling the internet trying to find soundtracks that have a build up (like the 3 I posted on page 26), but a lot of them fall into an orchestral type genre which isn't right for the game.

How have I not been paying attention to this thread? The animations look awesome! :)

Hard Scary hip-hop beat {rap} Instrumental - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcqPq5189VQ#ws)



I think this would be awesome , a great find .

Damn I hate those "8bit music" videos... because they olways put this fucking NES MIDI soundset and i hate it.
Sounds like shit.

Can't beat a real programmed AY... IMO.



Those lazy pretenders pretend to Chiptune but are imposters...
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130117120905/creepypasta/images/1/1e/Impossiburu.jpg)
They desacrate my holy real chiptune.

Let's Exorcist this infamy !
AMSTRAD CPC 464 MUSIC ~ One hour mix #2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ESQB0YHtQA#ws)
AMSTRAD CPC DEMO MUSIC ~ Kangaroo demos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLPI8pTaCVs#)

Catching up with the thread; I agree with TFM, seeing the system font in a production is not so cool, even if used for the intro alone. It kind of takes you out of it...

Quote from: MacDeath on 22:17, 22 December 13
Damn I hate those "8bit music" videos... because they olways put this fucking NES MIDI soundset and i hate it.
Sounds like shit.

Can't beat a real programmed AY... IMO.

Heh heh! You hate the "NES-ness" :D
Thanks for those links.

Quote from: Gryzor on 20:05, 23 December 13
Catching up with the thread; I agree with TFM, seeing the system font in a production is not so cool, even if used for the intro alone. It kind of takes you out of it...

A new font has now been created from a font that arnoldemu sent to me. It's good and readable!

Can we take a peak at the font? :)

No peeking at demo's or font :)

I may show a few seconds of the demo at some point, but not the whole thing.

You teaser :D

I came across this (ignore the voice samples),


Marvin Gaye vs. Gorillaz - I Heard It Through the Grapevine vs. Feel Good Inc. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU_rNb7N1r0#)


Has anything complex like this been attempted on the CPC? How well would it do in terms of imitating scratching noises?

Another interesting find was this nintendo mix of 8 bit hip hop where they imitated all the rap lyrics into sound effects! It sounds very weird indeed but some parts were interesting.

If it were made using samples, you wouldn't be able to use it on a game (at least on an standard CPC). If you are going to use plain AY sounds, it would require some expertise and imagination to make similar sounds.


On wich platform ran that 8 bit hip hop mix that you heard? NES? GameBoy?

Quote from: McKlain on 18:39, 03 January 14
If it were made using samples, you wouldn't be able to use it on a game (at least on an standard CPC). If you are going to use plain AY sounds, it would require some expertise and imagination to make similar sounds.

Yes. I wasn't thinking of using samples, I was wondering about the AY sounds imitating scratching effects. I would really like to know if there are any examples out there as I think it would be really interesting to have in one of the levels. Scratching contains spaces in the music as well as being a good way to cut to a different track or tone of the music on the same level.

Quote from: McKlain on 18:39, 03 January 14
On wich platform ran that 8 bit hip hop mix that you heard? NES? GameBoy?

NES I think:

8-Bit Hip Hop Medley (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtBa8ydHcYY#)

I'm not to sure if it's from a real nintendo, but unlike some other 8 bit tunes - this really does give the impression that it could come from a real nintendo as it makes no attempt to hide the limitations from the sound chip, which is why it can sound quite off, but nevertheless - highly interesting. I wouldn't mind attempting something like this for one of the boss levels

Well, the "voice" is made just with a lot of pitch changes. You can do the same on the cpc.


About the scratching... well, something could be done  ;D

Demo is finished and am now looking to sort out the background tiles. I've installed Tiled but was wondering what people normally use. These backgrounds are very detailed so I need a process that would be quick!

Here's the first 500 frames of the enormous 3500 + frame gameplay demo. I'm not posting the whole thing as it's also currenty playing at twice the speed it should for some reason.

http://i.imgur.com/LidBd0g.gif[/img]](http://i.imgur.com/LidBd0g.gif)


(http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/%5BIMG)

the final combo is awesome. great job.

impressive, Renegade is still there but boosted in anyway, you have my admiration, and for sure i will buy a copy of the game when released.

The animation is superb.

What a nice new year present :)

1) Mohawk punk gang                          - Residential area          Boss Type: HEAVY MALE
4) Female gang                                     - 2 floor music club       Boss Type: NORMAL FEMALE
3) Hoodie wearing, moped riding gang - The bridge                  Boss Type: NORMAL MALE
2) Football shirt wearing gang             -  Park,                           Boss Type: HEAVY FEMALE
5) Mask wearing gang                           - Underground Sewer: Boss Type: NORMAL MALE
6) Prison gang                                       - Prison                         Boss Type: NORMAL MALE

The next area I will tackle is the park, although it will resemble more of a forest than a park in order to make the tilling easier (I think).
I'm looking forward to this background as it's something very different from the last level and it will have different ground heights. The enemies for this level will be an all male group with a female heavy boss.

Oh man, wish I could give you 50 likes for that gif...

I can't wait to play your game with my bros ^^ just like good old time

Hello,


I'm currently sorting out all the naming conventions of the legs and torso's for the characters. I had to do some serious optimization on the backgrounds produced too many tiles. I actually found it quite fun!


I'll have the male naming conventions finished week and should have the female done afterwards. It's taken a little longer than I thought as there are a lot of torso sprites for the male, though I think the female has a lot less.


In regards to the music, I've been thinking that as each levelwill have an atmospheric track (Scorpio's view style) then for the boss fight, an actual piece of continuous music. I was thinking yesterday, that it would make the build up feel better and it's not necessary to have "space" in the music in a boss fight. The boss fight should feel dramatic and intense in a different way compared to the rest of the level you walk through to get there.
For instance the park/forest level with the the football shirt wearing gang could have menacing music with dark football chants(using the noise channel like in Matchday 2 or Emlyn Hughes), then when the boss comes it changes to something heavier, but still keeping the football chant theme.

Imagine something like this instrumental but with chants:

System of a Down - Prison Song Guitar Backing Track (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyg527M7X6g#)

On this project I'm working on the AI and the player controls. This is the most important - the gameplay.
This will take time so everyone needs to be patient.

I've converted the new level tiles and level data to get an idea of how much ram it will take.

I am also working on some other scripts and tools that will capture the graphics from the sprite sheets and convert them into a form the game will use.

The current plan is this will be multi-load and on disc. I don't want to give any details concerning memory budgets, data sizes, code etc because things are subject to change.

Nice work. I wonder, how will you fit all these sprites in memory (64kb) ?
What kind of cruncher will you use to display sprites and reverse them at decent frame rate ?


Thanks

With all that GFX and smart features... 128 KB? I mean... if you use double buffering?




This is an very exciting project. And I want to tell my compliments to everybody involved. Especially since you all work on it since a long time already.  :)

We don't know yet.


One of the most important thing was to give the programmers all the features that I would like to be in the game and take it from there. We wont know if everything will fit but this is a good way to go about it as it eliminates "feature creep"*
This is why it's taken me so long to work out the gameplay and graphics as I had to be sure that I gave the programmers everything and that no nasty surprises were going to come up. This included the front end and hud animations (which I haven't posted here) because UI design also needs to fit in memory too.


Feature creep* Introducing more ideas into a game turning it into a never ending project!

Actually that's a cool strategy  8)

Quote from: TFM on 18:55, 14 January 14
With all that GFX and smart features... 128 KB? I mean... if you use double buffering?




This is an very exciting project. And I want to tell my compliments to everybody involved. Especially since you all work on it since a long time already.  :)

Working on disc version first. Definitely be using double buffering. So far it's looking to be a 128k minimum game.
can't say anymore. It will take time.

That's ok. Better a well result than a rush.  :)

Still investigating the music. I think this would be very interesting to hear on the AY chip. Something like this would work with the nightclub level.


From 45:10 - 47:10

DMC Summit 1 (1997) DJ Cash Money, Cutmaster Swift, DJ Q-Bert, Roc Raida, DJ Noize, & A-Trak (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToRXbtE_F68#)

I've been trying to work out how the sounds could be layered using the AY sounds:

Channel 1  - Drumbeat and combat sound effects. I'm guessing that a bass drum hit or a snare hit, would be the same length as a punch sound effect. The sound effect would replace the drum effect for that moment, but as it will be in rhythm it shouldn't throw off the beat.

Channel 2 - Bass.

Channel 3 - Guitar and other effects.

So I wonder how many channels would a scratch sound take using the AY sounds? Would it need to be spread over 2 channels?

You can have the drum and bass on the center channel (channel B, or 2 in your example). There are ways to mix them both (tricking your ears and your brain) and save a channel. Then you can have 2 channels for melodies and you can put the FX on the left channel. Or even use both channels for FX if there is a particular FX that you don't want to get cut by the kicks and punches (picking an extra life, a powerup or something like that).


I mixed the bass and the drums on my Funky Stars version and the result was pretty good. The original mod was 9 channels and I managed to cram almost everything into 3.

Funky Stars [Amstrad CPC true 8bit version] by McKlain on SoundCloud - Hear the (https://soundcloud.com/mcklain/funky-stars-amstrad-cpc-true)

Quote from: McKlain on 14:40, 17 January 14
You can have the drum and bass on the center channel (channel B, or 2 in your example). There are ways to mix them both (tricking your ears and your brain) and save a channel. Then you can have 2 channels for melodies and you can put the FX on the left channel. Or even use both channels for FX if there is a particular FX that you don't want to get cut by the kicks and punches (picking an extra life, a powerup or something like that).

Ok.


Do you think it would still be a good idea to have the Drum, base and the hit/punch effect on the same channel? It's just that if you were to play the drum beat and hit beat at the same time, I'm thinking that you wouldn't really be losing much when they cut in and out of each other.


Listened to your Funky Stars.


That works very well indeed!

I personally wouldn't mix the drums+bass with the FX. I meant to use the left and right channel (now I see that I didn't mention it) for melodies and FX and leave the drums+bass on the center channel alone.


There is one thing that happens with the AY that is inevitable. There is only one noise generator, shared by the 3 channels, and to make the drums and fight FX you need to use noise. When you have 2 channels playing noise at the same time, the noise value is shared on both. So you may have a drum playing wich uses some values, then you launch a punch FX with different values and the drums noise change to the new values from the punch FX (and the opposite can happen too if the drum instrument kicks in after the punch fx). It's a small problem, but sometimes you may hear strange little things.

Is there a tutorial for Arkos Tracker in the vain of "How to create your first tune", or something similar?

Maybe this can help:


CPCRULEZ &#9733 DEMOSCENE &#9733 TRACKING TUTORIAL BY LAIDOKEN{UK} (http://cpcrulez.fr/demoscene_tracking_tutorial.htm)


documentations:software:arkos.tracker:start [Grimware] (http://www.grimware.org/doku.php/documentations/software/arkos.tracker/start)

Quote from: McKlain on 09:35, 19 January 14
Maybe this can help:


CPCRULEZ &#9733 DEMOSCENE &#9733 TRACKING TUTORIAL BY LAIDOKEN{UK} (http://cpcrulez.fr/demoscene_tracking_tutorial.htm)


documentations:software:arkos.tracker:start [Grimware] (http://www.grimware.org/doku.php/documentations/software/arkos.tracker/start)

Interesting info, but I'm really looking for a tutorial on using the package itself; a bit like when you get tutorials on how to use Flash/Maya/Unity:eg
Unity 3d: Simple First-Person Shooter Tutorial - Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbm9lPB5GPw#ws)


Anything like this for Arkos?

I don't know of any, but maybe you should ask on push'n'pop forums.

Quote from: McKlain on 15:03, 20 January 14
I don't know of any, but maybe you should ask on push'n'pop forums.

Okay, I'll have to register on that one. More passwords to remember!!! :D

Hi everybody!
This article by Ultrasyd could help you:
Push'n'Pop | Amstrad CPC Demoscene | Arkos Tracker (http://pushnpop.net/articles-16.html)

Congratulation for your very "realistic" animations!

Quote from: Hicks on 13:38, 21 January 14
Hi everybody!
This article by Ultrasyd could help you:
Push'n'Pop | Amstrad CPC Demoscene | Arkos Tracker (http://pushnpop.net/articles-16.html)

Congratulation for your very "realistic" animations!

Seems to be what I'm looking for. I will check it when I get home.
Thanks.

Read through the article and it gives a clearer picture for me. I think the next best thing for me to do in order to learn Arkos Tracker, is to pick a simple pop song and just try to replicate it.

It's not Arkos Tracker but Starkos, but you can take a look too:
documentations:software:starkos:start [Grimware] (http://www.grimware.org/doku.php/documentations/software/starkos/start)
Question: why don't you try to find a musician for your project? I think that a lot of people could be interested...

Quote from: Hicks on 15:11, 22 January 14
Question: why don't you try to find a musician for your project? I think that a lot of people could be interested...

EgoTrip (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/profile/EgoTrip/) is a very good CPC musician and might be interested...

He has lots of demos that he's sent me in the past to listen to.

Update:

I'm currently on holiday but have bought my Pandora machine with me, so I have been typing out the plot and have also sorted out all the weapons for the game. I will have to create a demo for arnoldemu and Munchausen to show how these work.

I still have 1 more enemy for the first level to finish constructing for. 

Graphically, the next level I create will need to include an enemy female, as completing that set will mean that all the character templates are done. Animating from that point will just be a case of re-styling the characters with different clothing and different heads.

is this project over ?

Quote from: Ast on 18:43, 17 September 14
is this project over ?

no

I've been a little quiet over this summer period and was going to post after the 1st boss and enemy layouts had been sent to the programmers, but I'll go through the updates now.

@Ast (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=573): As arnoldemu said.  :)

I've actually been working on this project 3/4 times a week, but It's been mostly to do with the story and the characters "character" traits. There's over 8 pages of A4 detailing the world they are living in and the reasons the players, enemies and bosses are doing what they do. I've been typing this on my Pandora machine while commuting to work but I haven't sent this to arnoldemu or munchausen yet as it's currently all over the place.

I decided to do this, because although I know what gender the bosses are, I'm not too sure what they should look like, what their gang affiliates themselves with and what their personalities are like.

Other news is that I have 5-6 animation layout sheets of the 1st boss animations to create for the programmers. What this means, is compiling all the sprite parts and also the gif animation for a certain move on one sheet, in order for the programmers to see how the sprites are layered and the order of the frames.
The bosses have the same number of moves as the player, so the fights are going to be rather epic.
After this boss is done, I will then have to do the different weapon animations and explanations on how they work and what they do; then, the female enemy, which will be the last animation "sprite size" I'll have to deal with.

Then there's the music and sound effects which are incredibly important to me. Although I've been trying my best to make the animations and backgrounds look good, if the sound effects don't have the right impact, then it just wont feel right. If the music doesn't have the correct atmosphere, then the tone of the game will be off.
I always felt that there was a disconnection with the sound effects in relation to the animations, on Target Renegade. The punching sound effects for example, doesn't have enough force to sound damaging to me. They just sound - strange, where as the Spectrum sound effects of the punches sound a lot more brutal and bone crunchy, making the impact of the fist connecting to the enemies face more satisfying.

This also extends to the weapon sound effects on the CPC. The "cukoo clock" noises, sound really out of place when you swing the weapon.

It's a shame they didn't use the sound effects from the first Renegade on the CPC.

Do you plan to release a movie after that?  ;D

That would be a shame to write such a big scenario and not use it to it's full possibility !

Quote from: remax on 14:36, 19 September 14
Do you plan to release a movie after that?  ;D

That would be a shame to write such a big scenario and not use it to it's full possibility !

Actually could be a trilogy with extended versions if the plot continues expanding that quickly  :D

I'll get the BluRay version then :D

The first level Boss moves have now been completed. It's the heavy type and I will be using that template for the female version with a few adjustments. I'm now moving on to the weapon demo which I will be starting tomorrow. It's going to take a while but I'm hoping to have it done in around 2 weeks.

Okay; there are a total of eight weapons in the game.

Two weapon animations have been completed so far, one of them being the most complex of all the weapons.
I have another complicated weapon which I will be starting this afternoon and when it's done, the rest should be very easy.

Here is the female enemy design.

(http://i.imgur.com/kSLtJ9F.gif%5B)

Also, I have now figured out the ending that I want for the story.  :)

Don't effing rush it... Take your time, when it's finished I'd love to give it a review  ;)

Story so far:

I have finished the weapon attack animations, but I need to animate the hit reactions for the other characters. Started some of the hit reactions for the normal enemies, but some still need to be done for the main characters and the boss. It's been far more complicated than I first thought.

What happens after:

After finishing the weapon hit reactions, I'll be creating another presentation piece for the programmers on how the weapons actually work. This will be easier to create compared to the first demo, where I hadn't yet animated the hit reactions in which I had to create in order to get it working for demostration purposes.

Hello everyone,

It's nearly 2 months since my last post on this so here is an update.

All the gameplay fighting mechanics including all the weapons have been done and sent to the programmers. I will be given information on memory space as there are a lot of interesting but complex moves which is very likely going to need much planning on the programmers part, but will be fantastic if we manage to pull it off.

I'm pretty please with the mechanics so far.

I was originally going to start the female enemy template which will be tracing the female player animations with a different head, but I might start looking into creating a demo of the musical atmosphere I would like to hear in the game, as this will take up some memory too.

So looking forward to this.

Thanks for the update mate, please stay on course :)

Hi guys and gals,

An update as it's been a rather long time since I posted.

Work on this from my side (things are progressing on programming)will be resuming when I get back to the UK as I'm currently away.

I've only managed to do some rough planning on the second level and some more research on music. I'm sstill wondering how they managed to achieve the sound effects and music on Renegade playing at the same time, without any noticable interruptions on either of the channels. There must be some clever trick that they are using to avoid having the sound effects cut into the music? Or maybe the music is really only on 2 channels and not 3? The music sounds really rich and full so maybe I'm just not listening hard enough to determine how it's done.

I'm still thinking that the drum beat and fighting sound effects should be on the same channel, as you wouldn't notice the change in sound too much, as both would share a similar rhythym.

Also - my laptop speakers aren't that great. :D

Thanks for the update man... :)

Would be nice to get a full run down like you gave a year or so ago as to the progress and percentage left until the game is finished.
I have so many questions, have you decided on the final name of this game? Who's doing the music? Who's involved on the programming front, and have you consulted with the original programmers of Renegade to work out the music and sound effects issue? They hang around a lot on Facebook these days.
I'm really exited about this potential game, it looks like you've thought of everything, but at the same time considered the CPC's limitations.
Can't wait for your next update. 

Quote from: ukmarkh on 14:57, 09 July 15
Would be nice to get a full run down like you gave a year or so ago as to the progress and percentage left until the game is finished.
I have so many questions, have you decided on the final name of this game? Who's doing the music? Who's involved on the programming front, and have you consulted with the original programmers of Renegade to work out the music and sound effects issue? They hang around a lot on Facebook these days.
I'm really exited about this potential game, it looks like you've thought of everything, but at the same time considered the CPC's limitations.
Can't wait for your next update.

I am coding this game.

I am targetting a 128KB machine with a disc drive.

About 80% of ram is currently used; this is with 2 player characters :( Lots of cpu time is used, I need to do optimisations.

A rundown of the current implementation which is subject to change (depending on ram constraints etc):
- 2 16KB screens are used for double buffering
- screen is hardware scrolled using R3 and R5 to make smooth vertical and horizontal scrolling
- there is a panel at the bottom that uses another area of ram.
- screen is split using demo techniques and there is a gap between play area and panel (same as prehistorik 2).
- main area is mode 0, panel is mode 1.
- graphic frames are stored in extra ram, along with level tile graphics and level tile indices.
- sprites are flipped at runtime; so only half the sprites are stored. I am using a method similar to renegade, storing top half and lower half seperately and a minimum area for each sprite and still the ram space is very tight.
- most of the engine is made in assembler; with the ai being implemented in c while I develop it.

Using c gives me better and quicker iteration and allows me to easily spot optimisations.

I am currently testing the game using arnold wip and a real gx4000 (The game is meant for disc and 128kb, but with slight code modifications i have made a cartridge for 64kb gx4000 and I am using that to test all the timings and things are accurate). Writing the AI is taking time and it's the most important part to make it fun.

The problems I can see so far:
1. not enough ram
2. not enough cpu time

I don't worry about sfx/music. I don't know why they chose to split them in renegade.

I am choosing not to release demos because I am expecting things to change, so any demo may not be a true representation of the final game.

I would be interested in talking to the programmers of Renegade; more to find out why they chose to do things a specific way. I do have an idea why, but it would be good to talk and confirm it with them.

Don't wanna kYA. But brilliant piece of explaining , the ins and outs . Specially for people like me who have an interest in trying to  understand the process in programming, but only from casual respect. My talents lay elsewhere , but love to get more of a grip on how you guys do it.

I'll give a little more detail of the current engine. Remember it can change!

Two screens:
Screen 1 @ &c000-&ffff
Screen 2 @ &8000-&ffff

This leaves &4000-&ffff open for expansion RAM (when 128K disc) or putting lower rom here to simulate 128K using lowest 8 pages of cartridge.

&0700-&3fff, main code + code to manage banks.
&100-&1ff is table for masking sprites. (mode 0, 15 colours, pen 0 transparent)
&200-&2ff is for shift table so sprites can be done pixel by pixel.
&300-&3ff is for reversing pixels for drawing sprites in any direction.
&400-&4ff is for "white" table so sprites can flash white when hit
&500-&6ff is for screen table to help me to calculate screen addresses from x,y coords.

Current code is 11K! This is engine + C code compiled + some debug code.

top part of screen is 32 crtc chars wide and 18 crtc chars tall.

panel is 32 crtc chars wide and 6 crtc chars tall.
panel is located at &4000 currently and organised like a normal screen. Approx 3K used but not continuous. I could put music player here.

Map uses 256 tiles. Tiles are 16 lines tall and 4 pixels wide. 8K for tile graphics. Map is 32x8x12.
Approx 3K/4K (tile indices). It uses page "&c7". Sprites use &c4,&c5,&c6.

Problem is that data must be continuous and not span banks, so I have some open areas which will be awkward to fill because the remaining will be small.

My sprite routines do not allow pixels to cross banks because it would be too complex to do that.

Stack is at &4000 and grows down.

128k may not be enough.

The game *will* multi-load, I don't have enough free ram to hold everything at the same time.

Interesting how 'nature' forces coevoluton. My engine for 128 KB is not so different, except that I have the 2nd screen at 0 and the block 8000-C000 as common block (main prg, stack, im2 table etc).


128 KB is not very much indeed.


Keep the good work going, I'm looking forward to a release one day.  :)

Hi guys and gals,

Sorry for the slow reply and updates. I was out of the country for 3 months and got back around a month ago and have been trying to finish one of my very old projects from aeons ago, as well as intensly looking for a job in order to make the tax man go away!

I haven't been able to progress much on the music/sfx or the female characters template at the moment, but rest assured I will be back onto them as soon as I sort myself out. I will need to try and get the female template done for sure and give the programmers more info, on the second stage layout as I'm also giving a helping hand to 2 other people on their own projects.

I will update with a break down sheet hopefully around the first week of August, in regards to the important milestones left to do in regards to the sprite templates.

I hope you can finish everything with 128k, to avoid having to make more memory, and function in a 6128 standard, good luck

Keep it going @sigh (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=104) - a super big project like this surely takes it's time! Take a break, but please never stop!  :) :) :)

What's wrong with flip screen as used in Renegade / Target Renegade and Gryzor. I for one wouldn't care, advantages are a bigger screen, no need for double buffering and less ram needed. Scrolling in these types of games is overrated, bringing the fight is the most important thing for gaming enthusiasts. Just my two pence worth...

Quote from: ukmarkh on 18:38, 25 July 15
What's wrong with flip screen as used in Renegade / Target Renegade and Gryzor. I for one wouldn't care, advantages are a bigger screen, no need for double buffering and less ram needed. Scrolling in these types of games is overrated, bringing the fight is the most important thing for gaming enthusiasts. Just my two pence worth...

Nothing is wrong with flip screen. I chose to investigate scrolling first. :)

I totally understand where you coming from here: having flip screen can help you to concentrate on the action and can give finer control.

I will consider flip screen. There are a few things that can and may change before release.

I am also considering  joystick control with single fire, joystick control with two fire buttons, or joystick control and keyboard like renegade on cpc.

For me the AI is very important and the control needs to be tight and responsive and intuative to how the moves are triggered.

Quote from: ukmarkh on 18:38, 25 July 15
What's wrong with flip screen as used in Renegade / Target Renegade and Gryzor. I for one wouldn't care, advantages are a bigger screen, no need for double buffering and less ram needed. Scrolling in these types of games is overrated, bringing the fight is the most important thing for gaming enthusiasts. Just my two pence worth...

As stated by arnoldemu, there is nothing wrong with flip screen.

I would like to have scrolling as the results that arnoldemu has investigated on so far has been fantastic. Also - I prefer scrolling in beat em up games rather than flip screen as it makes the gameplay feel smoother in my experience.*

Another important thing is that arnoldemu, Munchausen and myself have been approaching some interesting gameplay styles, scrolling methods, animation techniques, new ways to tackle AI etc. We're finding new ways to do things where knowledge can be passed onto other people for future CPC projects. So if arnoldemu creates an optimized scrolling method on the CPC for people to use, then that can only be a good thing.

*There's a lot of graphic, sound effects and AI considerations in the game, so if we cant get scrolling then we'll just have to flip it:D

I think I prefer scroll, but gameplay comes first. And a bigger playing area means better gameplay, too.


In my mind the only real drawback of flipscreen appears when you don't check the enemies/player positions carefully and you end up smashing your face onto an opponent when changing screens.

Really looking forward to this, hopefully it will see the light of day in 2016, fingers crossed. Any updates would be swell ;-)

I'll be doing more work this year on the game. There are some sprite construction lists that I need to create for arnoldemu, but I haven't managed to get round to doing it yet as I've been busy at work. *I wasn't able to work on it at ALL last year, but I'm definitely going to be making more progress on the graphics. I may need to change a few things to make less list for arnoldemu (things like having the walk cycles have the same coordinate positions for all the characters for example, even though they are different torso lengths for the female sprites).


Edited post: I meant I wasn't able to work on it all last year. I was out of the UK for a while finishing on another project, then went straight into work when I got back.

Thanks for the update, man! Looking forward!!

Do you have any updates, might we expect a Christmas preview or launch?  :P 

Quote from: ukmarkh on 11:59, 30 October 16
Do you have any updates, might we expect a Christmas preview or launch?  :P

Helloooo!

There wont be any launch yet:)

I managed to finish a project this year that had been almost the bane of my life for an incredible number of years (a comic book). This happened in July and then I got back to the UK in August, but then had to fly off again for work. When I got back, I had tackle all the mold in my house, strip the wallpaper and throw away all the furniture, where I am now currently sleeping on air bed:D

The plasterer is coming round next week to do a "proper" job of it, rather than my poor attempt which left my room looking more like the bat cave rather than the smooth finish it's supposed to have. I absolutely HATE DIY with a passion!

So although I haven't touched the beat em up, the wonderful thing, is that I no longer have that other project on my conscience.
This means I can focus my full attention on the game once the decorating is done.

Maybe consider decorating the walls with screenshots, gets two jobs done in one  :P

Thanks for the update, the CPC community keeps their fingers crossed for the arrival of what looks to be the best 'em up ever ;-)

...bump??

Sorry!


It's still alive:) Been looking at the animation gameplay example I sent to arnoldemu a while back and have been thinking about the new levels I need to make, but it's been a super busy start to the year. However - before creating the new backgrounds, I need to finish that damn female fighter template I've been planning to do for ages, even though the game is constantly on my mind. I'm also having to redo a bit of the comic book I thought I had finished, as someone gave me some critical feedback that needs to address.


After that - a schedule for the animation side things can be worked out:)

Oooh thanks for the update, looking forward to it as always!

Just recently found this topic. What a wonderful game this brawler can be!


Is it still alive though? Sigh, can you please share some new info about your game?

Just saw this on another thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP_2PNkCYu0

:o :D 8)

Hi.

The project is still alive. I haven't been active on my usual sites for a while due to leaky ceilings and having to buy a new bathroom because of it:( Also making preparations for a new contract job. From my last post in febuary I haven't worked on it yet as I was working at the time and also on the weekends too.
Sorry it's been so slow! I only just saw this post today before going to bed.

Also - it's not called Target Renegade 2. The current tile is "No Holds Barred". It's an old gif that doesn't even show the hud.  :)

Hi guys and gals:
(https://s1.gifyu.com/images/LEVEL_2A.gif)
The whole of Level 2 background has been finished (I'm just showing one section of it here) and I just finished designing the boss which is the large torso female. She is a sports type character, so all her minions will be wearing Rugby shirts of the same colour. Not to sure about her move list, but she'll probably have a rugby tackle as her super move and maybe a Volley ball serve as a grab attack.

Wow those trees look brilliant.
I wish I could pixel even 10% as well!

Quote from: ervin on 23:48, 26 June 18
Wow those trees look brilliant.
I wish I could pixel even 10% as well!

Thank you. Those trees were an absolute pain to pixel because  They took up so much tile space that I had to go back and forth as I didn't have enough space for the stadium (there is a sports stadium in the middle of the level and some high rise buildings at the end of the level) and had to limit the amount of grass tiles.
I didn't want to do "Tree tiling" like in Double Dragon(forest section) or in Target Renegade (Park section) as the repeating pattern can sometimes dilute the feeling of progression through a level.

Looks bloody amazing! I wish we could see a video of this running...

Here is the Boss special move. As she is a sporty type character. she has some football(ish) looking moves:

(https://s1.gifyu.com/images/Football_Kick_Super_Final.gif)

She also has a grab move that ends in an overhead kick:

(https://s1.gifyu.com/images/Grab_Attack_Final.gif)

She will have 2 more types of sporty moves which will be a slide tackle (which replaces the barge) and maybe her ground attack could be football "kick ups/keep ups" but I fear that it may look too comical as I still want the game to have a gritty feel.
Tomorrow I will work on the sliding tackle and the "back heel" (behind attack).

That looks brilliant!
How long does it take to pixel and animate a character like that?

Quote from: ervin on 08:21, 25 July 18
That looks brilliant!
How long does it take to pixel and animate a character like that?

It takes a good while. There are limited frames on the sprite sheet in regards to legs so you end up doing more "thinking" than actual animating. You end up going through many iterations before you get something plausible.

Gorgeous; thanks for keeping us in the loop!

Update:

I have finished animating the second level boss and have also finished the template sprite set for the generic female enemy. What this means is that all male, female body templates have been completed. All I have to do now to create a new enemy sprite, is to trace over them with a different outfit, do a head swap and create 1 or 2 unique moves for them (which may add 3 - 5 additional torso sprites) and that's pretty much it.

For the bosses - they will need a bit more work, but I no longer have to spend so much time with generic moves "being hit"/"being KO'ed"/"Walking"etc as now they just need to be traced. This means that I can now concentrate on their unique abilities.

(https://s2.gifyu.com/images/Combat_Women2A.gif)             (https://s2.gifyu.com/images/Combat_Women2B.gif)   (updated with correct images)

Here are 2 designs for the female enemies. All torso animations have been completed for the green haired enemy who is being used as the base template.
Next week, I will be creating the level 2 enemy sprites. I'm going to have them all wearing the same outfit (tracksuit or sports top) as they are a "sports" gang.

give us a new gif please  :o

Happy new year!
Just a quick update:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nLJj3zQM/Layout-Enemy-lvl-2-A.gif)
I have almost finished animating the enemies for level 2. There is only 1 type of  enemy for this particular level as they have a lot more moves than the level 1 enemies, which meant that more torso animation frames were needed. They are all wearing the same gym/hoodie clothes as they are a sports type enemy.
After I have animated their grab attack and their special attack, i will be moving onto designing level 3, which will be a level that is a mixture of male and female enemies.

Quote from: sigh on 19:29, 07 January 19
Happy new year!
Just a quick update:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nLJj3zQM/Layout-Enemy-lvl-2-A.gif)
I have almost finished animating the enemies for level 2. There is only 1 type of  enemy for this particular level as they have a lot more moves than the level 1 enemies, which meant that more torso animation frames were needed. They are all wearing the same gym/hoodie clothes as they are a sports type enemy.
After I have animated their grab attack and their special attack, i will be moving onto designing level 3, which will be a level that is a mixture of male and female enemies.

Well done! nice to look and hear some fresh news about this project  :)
On which software you design your showed sprites ? Amsprite software or else ?
Do you design the entire game alone ? very enjoyed about your project , keep on ! cheers.

This project looks superb! Great graphics, animation and looks really fun to play!

I have read maybe 128 KiB will not be enough... that's reasonable judging by the big amount of animations and different characters. If you need more juice, just remember I have a cartridge design collecting dust. It has up to 8 MiB of ROM, a ROM to RAM DMA engine and 0% CPU overhead digital audio sample playing capabilities...

Hello,
Another apology from me for the slow updates!
I had started creating the backgrounds for level 3 - I have only have one screen done and will need to do another 7; this wont be happening till around sometime August. This level is more akin to Dragon Ninja/Shinobi where you have the ability to climb up onto another platfrom. You will still be able to move in the Z axis.

I haven't pixelled the boss for level 3 and need to go back and have a look at my design document for her.

Do you have new screens to share ?

(https://i.postimg.cc/8cVJWGGY/Level-3-Screen-A.gif)
Here is the first screen for the third level. It's an underground pharmacy where you can either walk on the top or below. There are six levels so we are currently half way through with the level design. The carpet on the top is a little problematic to work out the tiling because of the pattern, but it is still being worked.The lower part of the level will be flooded with water so there wont be any texture, though there will be a 2 frame animated ripple around the characters feet.

Still beautiful :)

Quote from: sigh on 09:45, 07 July 19
(https://i.postimg.cc/8cVJWGGY/Level-3-Screen-A.gif)
Here is the first screen for the third level. It's an underground pharmacy where you can either walk on the top or below. There are six levels so we are currently half way through with the level design. The carpet on the top is a little problematic to work out the tiling because of the pattern, but it is still being worked.The lower part of the level will be flooded with water so there wont be any texture, though there will be a 2 frame animated ripple around the characters feet.

woh, very nice screen, still on the project?

This looks great, love the animation!
Hope this is still being worked on and maybe will be GX compatible?
Can't beat a good scrolling brawler

The graphics and aminations look fantastic! An as a great fan of Renegade, Target Renegade an others I am really looking forward to the final game. Kudos

Hello! Thank you for the comments:)
The Xmas holiday has already started for me; I had a rather long seven month contract and hadn't taken any days off for that duration. I had opened the level I was creating only 2 days ago to see were I was at. I will be travelling tomorrow which should leave me sometime to sketch out the rest of the level.

Hello,
I'm back on this after taking a break as it's quite easy to get burn out when working on this game ;) .I'm still designing this third level, which is rather complicated due to the split level design. This makes the tiles for this particular level very tricky to optimize so they can be used elsewhere.
Will hopefully have it finished by the end of this month.

Well - I have 3 of the sections done for this level (there are 8 256x192 sections that make up a level when stitched together) and I have 20 empty tile spaces left. This has been the most tricky level so far to optimize due to it being a split level.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4x3XTgHx/Level3.gif)

I thought it would be interesting to have a wall to separate the rooms, as it would feel too much like a hallway.
I will need to create a window, staircase and maybe a radiator with those 20 tiles spaces. Will start on that next week.

The game will be 128ko only ?

I like the original title of this thread 😄

Quote from: kawickboy on 10:28, 07 March 20
The game will be 128ko only ?

Yes - it's very animation heavy.

Quote from: Gryzor on 12:17, 07 March 20
I like the original title of this thread 😄

I know! :D

Hello - an update!
I have nearly finished all the background levels for the game. I have one screen from the final level that is almost complete, then I need to create two single screen levels; a single level with a moon in the background over water and another single screen level with a sunrise/sunset in the background over water.
That will be it for all the levels! I will most likely be starting this week as I had been away for three months and now have to quarantine for two weeks.After these three single screens are done, I can now start creating the enemy sprite sheets and start designing the rest of the bosses.
I am really looking forward to finally finishing these background and level designs.

So... yay for quarantine I suppose? :D

Not the showing whole background level as it is rather long, but it splits into two paths. The main thing with this level,  is that I thought it would be nice have a bit of diagonal scrolling like in
Dynamite Dux. I really enjoy the different directions you can take in that game that leads to the same exit.

(https://i.imgur.com/ZYT9Fd4.gif)

This does introduce some nice variety indeed! And the way it transitions is very nice too.

Quote from: Gryzor on 08:53, 22 June 20
This does introduce some nice variety indeed! And the way it transitions is very nice too.

Thank you.
Now working on the last screen for this level:
(https://i.imgur.com/MZ0htvV.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/OCqJdHz.gif)

Great screen, screaming of BOSS!

For some reason it also reminded me of Lucasarts' Loom :D

(https://i.imgur.com/LsRjo9R.gif)
I have one more background to animate which is a sunset that will have a tide coming in and out along with some white lines on the water, to show movement.
Then it will only be the single screen boardroom level. After this is done - I will need to create some simple tiles that are need for when one level transitions to another. The levels follow on like the way it does in Double Dragon, with the only breaks being the final boss level and the player vs player level.

Lightning in cpc games... I remember Legend of Kage, Turrican & A.M.C.

Quote from: kawickboy on 16:13, 25 June 20
Lightning in cpc games... I remember Legend of Kage, Turrican & A.M.C.

And Myth

(https://i.imgur.com/lUQhjDp.gif)
Another of the player vs player level.

I have one more background level left to do. :)

All background levels have now been completed.
I am now working on the enemies for the rest of the levels. The boss enemy designs; most of them have a background story which makes creating their look, easier.
Their unique moves and special moves still need to be decided.

Enemies for level 3 "Illegal pharmaceutical" gang.
(https://i.imgur.com/5iGr83k.gif)

This enemy has a super that speeds up their movement for a few seconds by injecting themselves with a drug.

(https://i.imgur.com/o9BA141.gif)

This enemy throws a chemical that reverse player controls for a few seconds.

I am now working on the boss enemy for this level. I am thinking that it could be interesting to fight the boss at the beginning of the level instead of the end.

Heheh nice ideas :D And of course looking great as always...

Quote from: Gryzor on 08:43, 03 August 20
Heheh nice ideas :D And of course looking great as always...

Cheers.

These are the gang types I had in mind many years ago:

1) Mohawks Gang (Electric cabling thievery)
2) Sports Gang (Illegal sports match fixing)
3) Builder Gang (Land grabbing or illegal logging?)
4) Mining gang (Illegal mining) has dogs in level
5) Mask wearing gang (Illegal pharmaceutical)
6) Sunglasses Gang        (Racketeering)
7) Suited gang         (Cult) (Final Boss)
I wanted to give each gang an operation in what they deal in, rather than just being "a gang" and not much more.

You forgot the Sopranos :D

Hello everyone,
Just a quick update on the progress of this game. I have finished the boss for level 3.
(https://i.imgur.com/PJeoiac.gif)
Grab attack - elbow to flying knee finisher.

(https://i.imgur.com/WZYUUr4.gif)
With her super move, she injects the player with a serum which causes a random status effect: Reverse controls, Poison and Coughing.The coughing one is shown, which interrupts the players moves.

Lastly, these are her throw and ground attacks
(https://i.imgur.com/ifS3twk.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/imOjMX6.gif)

Tomorrow, I will be starting on the designs for the level 4 enemies.

Stunning work!
That is one brutal boss!

Long time no see, but this is just great!!!! If it was a KS project I'd back it in a split second...

well it seems somebody is going for free vacation in Greece  in Summer 2022!I would like to offer a week for the developers behind this project considering it will be finished.Summer of 2021 is already sold out to the people behind the ghosts and goblins Golem project and wonderboy!Mr Sigh contact me for the details.

Too late to contribute to the project? :D

This could be the best Amstrad game of all time, especially if new CPC hardware is used to overcome memory limitations.


Will it still be called Target Renegade 2? Or Streets of Renegade...


Amazing work, please take your time and I don't mind paying for this unbelievable effort you've put in.


Thx

Quote from: amijim on 10:10, 10 February 21
well it seems somebody is going for free vacation in Greece  in Summer 2022!I would like to offer a week for the developers behind this project considering it will be finished.Summer of 2021 is already sold out to the people behind the ghosts and goblins Golem project and wonderboy!Mr Sigh contact me for the details.

Thank you! PM sent.

I have been designing the enemies for level 4 and also the level 4 boss. I'm hoping to have the designs finished this week.

Quote from: amijim on 10:10, 10 February 21
well it seems somebody is going for free vacation in Greece  in Summer 2022!I would like to offer a week for the developers behind this project considering it will be finished.Summer of 2021 is already sold out to the people behind the ghosts and goblins Golem project and wonderboy!Mr Sigh contact me for the details.

Maybe you will organize a CPC meeting (obviously with participation)  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/MmGVYOZ.gif)
Here are the designs for the soldiers and the boss. It was tricky trying to make sure that they all look like they are from the same gang, for this particular level. Yellow and orange are the main tribe colours for this one. This is one the things I really liked about the second level enemies on Renegade, as they felt like a family which gave them a personality.

This gang is in the business of land grabbing. They force tenants out and then sell off the properties.


The others are currently:

Level 1 - Cable theft (the level is dark and has no lights)
Level 2- Match fixing (level is on the sports field/stadium)
Level 3 - illegal pharmacy (the level enemies have the face masks, but the boss is second in command, but she doesn't fit in and her soldiers dislike her).
Level 5 - illegal mining
Level 6 - Snow beach - a beach that has pot holes and slippery ice. Illegal tourism is exercised here by the gang.
Level 7 - Church tower. A gang that turned into a cult that deals in illegal logging.

 I can really offer some kW of electricity  cost in my small hotel during the low season period as a kind gesture for the time spend programming on an old home computer. It is not a big deal and does good to the programmers and the karma.

Quote from: ukmarkh on 03:00, 12 February 21
This could be the best Amstrad game of all time, especially if new CPC hardware is used to overcome memory limitations.


Will it still be called Target Renegade 2? Or Streets of Renegade...


Amazing work, please take your time and I don't mind paying for this unbelievable effort you've put in.


Thx

Maybe Renegade Legacy

Quote from: ukmarkh on 03:00, 12 February 21
This could be the best Amstrad game of all time, especially if new CPC hardware is used to overcome memory limitations.

you mean, this won't run with a single tape loading on my 464?  :o
;)

The current name of the game (subject to change) is "No Holds Barred". It will be using a stock 6128 CPC.

Quote from: sigh on 12:41, 17 March 21
The current name of the game (subject to change) is "No Holds Barred". It will be using a stock 6128 CPC.

the coder approved?  :P

Arnoldemu is doing the coding. It was always 128kb game and if we can't fit something in, then we just drop it. There are a lot of animations, but we will discard the ones that can't fit into memory.

(https://i.ibb.co/8DF2N45/Boss-Grab-Attack.gif) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/XWVrhsG/Boss-Super-Attack.gif) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/WpJ4GzY/Boss-Throw-Attack.gif) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/72x2Pp7/Boss-Kick-Attack.gif) (https://imgbb.com/)

Hello; hope everyone is doing well.Just a quick update on the project; There has been some progression on the programming side of things which is looking great so far.I have finished animating the enemies and the boss (shown) for level 4. I am now designing the enemies for level 5

Those are SO nice! :)

And what about the tunes ? On the 1st Renegade they sound perfect.

Quote from: kawickboy on 08:45, 14 June 21
And what about the tunes ? On the 1st Renegade they sound perfect.

For the music, I like the way Target Renegade does it with it's darker theme and that it plays a whole complete song through the whole level, rather than a looping tune like the first. I really like "Scorpio's Theme" from Dirty Harry as the music changes alot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFMHZdcQ1p4

Missy Elliot - Hit Em Wit Da Hee, also has a drastic change around 3:10 and transforms into something else:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5ein59FLQ4

Attack On Titan - Counterattack Mankind has a lovely transformation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PuP7IkpRLU

I think it would be great to have this sort of music shifting in the game.

Here are the Level 5 soldiers. They are workmen/women who deal in illegal mining.



(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/Level_5_Soldiers.gif)

Quote from: sigh on 17:04, 13 June 21There has been some progression on the programming side of things which is looking great so far.

So what is done on the code side? Is Kevin alright?

Quote from: roudoudou on 06:58, 16 June 21
So what is done on the code side? Is Kevin alright?

Arnoldemu has been doing work on the scrolling, screen transitioning, collision, energy bars, character movement amongst other things.