Shadow of the beast......

[cpc4eva]

ive been watching the youtube vids of shadow of the beast and when i look at it and compare it to switchblade which was also a gremlin game i really wonder why shadow of the beast deserved an AA Rave.




after playing cpc+ games navy seals and robocop 2 I cant help but wonder what shadow of the beast might have turned out to be on a cpc +




mode 1 four colours just doesnt do shadow of the beast any justice.


prehistorik as one example in mode 0 looks lovely as a result u lose some speed but its really frustrating to see so many games on cpc in four colour mode 1.

[MacDeath]

Please don't get me started again with Speccy porcs...err... ports.


And join my crusade for the complete eradication and destruction of every Spectrum computers in the world !

[cpc4eva]

Please don't get me started again with Speccy porcs...err... ports.


And join my crusade for the complete eradication and destruction of every Spectrum computers in the world !

where were u in 1984 ? we could have completely eradicated and destroyed every spectrum in the world together :0)

[GFXOR]

The Spectrum is not responsible of the shitability of the adaptation made on CPC ! The games are good on the Spectrum !

[fano]

right cpceva ! but mode 0 would not change the speed of SOB on CPC and i am pretty it is possible to optimize it a bit 

[cpc4eva]

right cpceva ! but mode 0 would not change the speed of SOB on CPC and i am pretty it is possible to optimize it a bit 

was skweek mode 0 ? that seemed to run at a decent speed with all those colours.  the scrolling would probably be not so good but then gryzor was pretty damn good without the smooth scrolling.


if it were cpc+ perhaps it would be different  and not be so slow ?

[Gryzor]

I think that the hype around SotB was so great people reeeally wanted it to be good. Still, as an effort it was quite admirable...

Skweek ruled! I didn't know there existed a CPC version till a couple of years ago; when it was released I was playing on the ST and it was fantastic, but when I played the CPC version I found it brilliant as well...

[MacDeath]

The problem with Shadow of the beast : it was designed around Amiga's capabilities.

Also it wasn't actually a good game gameplaywise...

Skweek and Gryzor are excellent in playability, but lack the scrollings as you said.

SotB is a typical retrocomputer topic, always exhumed in AMIGA/ATARI ST war...
But also in CPC/Speccy ports matters.

A decent mode0 version wouldn't need that much parralax indeed to get a decent effect.
Only 3 different scrollings would be enough actually in the exterior levels : the fence/edge at the bottom, the sky with the moon, and the main layer...
Just as the actual version does.
Other interior parts may even be sweet with a 2 layered background as can be seen on AMC per exemple, but AMC use "character attribute matrix" like sprite management (like game as R-Type or Satan...) while a proper SotB would need a smooth moving sprite management.

IMO, a game like SotB would actually need 2 engines : one for the exterior and one for the Interior.
Because exteriors are straight line designed (linear) with fancy effect while interior are more multiscrolling platformer with a labyrinth design.

Perhaps an extra sequence like the big ladder (vertical scroll only).

The Amstrad PLUS would be great in that it's extended palette would enable sweeter graphixs.
Also the few Hardfeatures such as scrollings or HardSprites may be a bit of extra awesomness, but such a game would need obviously a 128K version only, and would take quite a long time to load... but not that much too as we know the Amstrad diskdrive is quite fast.

The Amiga version does feature a lot of sweet big sprites, but not a lot of them at the same time because Amiga capabilities are stretched to the max. As a result, the sprites are not that well animated, so yep, the 16 HardSprites from Amstrad PLUS may be great.

Also we have to accept that an Amiga perfect version is simply impossible, just getting the basic concept and level design is enough to get the SotB feeling.
But nobodys would like to work on this, Would they ?

As I often repeat concerning the Amstrad version : the worst aspect is not only that it was designed for Speccy.
The graphics have been redone for the Amstrad (in 2 bit, real mode1...) so it was reworked and as such is not a real lasy Speccyporc but more of a CrossDev.

No, the problem is the HUD : the 2 ridiculous serpents/snakes on the left and right borders.
They simply make the screen smaller, they take a lot of tiles that may actually  have been used betterly...
And look stupid and retarded, comical while SotB is originally supposed to be serious and awesome, grim and dark.

Also those serpents do not allows raster colour changes.
The exteriors parts could have used a bit of rasters colour changes, for the bottom fence and the upper sky (the moon).
but it is denied, Speccy ports/crossdev never used well this technique, because, well, the very concept of a raster colour change is simply alien to a Speccy developper.

perhaps only Deflektor or Thundercat use them a bit well.

[fano]

No, the problem is the HUD : the 2 ridiculous serpents/snakes on the left and right borders.
They simply make the screen smaller, they take a lot of tiles that may actually  have been used betterly...

The problem is programmers had to deal with machine limitation.A so small area allows to have a correct game speed too.

For me , the problem of SOB does not need any port because it was a game especially designed for the Amiga.No port (from speccy to PC-engine) is able to beat the original (not the SNES too) because it owns something magic that can not be transposed to another machine.None of its port was able to provide me the sensations of the Amiga version.
Except that , it is more a technical demo about Amiga power with an awfull gameplay (please don't hurt me!) than something else.

Else about CPC version is acceptable , maybe it needs more colorfull graphics and some other visual stuff.I bought it (110 francs!)  and found it fun to play when it was published.

but it is denied, Speccy ports/crossdev never used well this technique, because, well, the very concept of a raster colour change is simply alien to a Speccy developper.

perhaps only Deflektor or Thundercat use them a bit well.

Beware about raster because you need to have stable interrupts to use them.Fast technics using stack do not allow to have stable interrupts.

was skweek mode 0 ? that seemed to run at a decent speed with all those colours.

In terms of graphics, there are no differences between modes for program speed.You can have the same speed for the same covered surface.

[Axelay]

Also those serpents do not allows raster colour changes.
The exteriors parts could have used a bit of rasters colour changes, for the bottom fence and the upper sky (the moon).
but it is denied, Speccy ports/crossdev never used well this technique, because, well, the very concept of a raster colour change is simply alien to a Speccy developper.

perhaps only Deflektor or Thundercat use them a bit well.

Always thought The Living Daylights was the best example I'd seen of a mode 1 game with colour splits.  Sadly not so great an example of a fun game.

[MacDeath]

http://www.cpc-power.com/images/ecran_jeu3/1307.png


That's right, I forgot about this one as I didn't played it at the time, I should give it a try.

What else..?


This one seems impressive, graphically at least.

Thundercat (talked about this one)

Yet it was a poor game IMO, graphix were not properly coloured and are poorly dithered.
But not the worst Speccy port.


This one seems to actually use a lot of rasters even only for the HUD/scores...
On this picture I can see 3 raster zones only for the playing field.


The original Engine as used in switchblade used Rasters only for the scores/HUD
And the GX4000 version of switchblade may have used even more.

The red sky seems to be in mode1 (look at the moon in mode1) so may actually use a lot of rasters, Hardwired sprites providing a good amount of colour patches too.
Yet the HUD also features less rasters too.


Also the classic way to recolour a bit more the Speccy ports : using a raster only for the HUD.
Not that impressive, yet often more than enought to add a bit when well done as in Deflektor.


Or poorly done as in Black Tiger or even PacMania...

I don't know if the 007 game do have Scrollings, but it seems that Rasters inside the gaming artea while scrolling wasn't really used a lot (was is actually used ?), perhap's it is harder to achieve...
Or should need a proper CPC/PLUS specific complete programm instead of a speccy port/crossdev..?


What else ? oh yep, I made you some mockups just to see what it may look like with shitton of rasters.
I know it may not fit that well when you add some sprites crossing the rasters, but hey...
Also the ditherings and layerings are still too pixelised in black as often with speccy graphics, so a better work would be to be done with the sky perhaps...

[Gryzor]

I had forgotten how nice The Living Daylights looked... gotta play it again! I ha dnever heard of Le Fugitif though, from the screenies it looks typically french and advanced... gotta try it!

[MacDeath]

Juste having 7 colours in Mode0 is more than enough to get a really colourfull feeling.

[cpc4eva]

switchblade was indeed impressive.......

fugitif looks very impressive with colour management and colours chosen.


i dreaded loading up Thundercats cpc as i was expecting a trashy speccy port but i was rather surprised by the way it played and how it looked on cpc. 


it was a decent speed but had no scrolling as a result.  some of the colours in later levels made it look yuk.  on that screen you posted there is approx 9 to 10 colours and the screen has been split into 4 or is it ?  (1) main game screen (2) hud at bottom for scores / level (3) right border for sword and cat symbol (4) background trees at top of main screen.




Looking at the thundercats screen u posted macdeath I wonder if the same engine could have been used for shadow of the beast.




Those Shadow of The Beast screens you did as mock ups look really really good

[ukmarkh]

First off...

Thundercats HOOO!!!

Thundercats are on the move,
Thundercats are loose,
Feel the magic, hear the Roar,
Thundercats are loose...

I quite liked Thundercats, especially flying through the air on those er' dufur loofer style ships. Secondly, all games in any other mode than '0' look crap, but can sometimes play really well.

If every game looked like Renegade, Chase HQ and Gryzor the CPC would have been even more a thing of beauty. I always loved Wec-le-mans, but wished it used mode '0'. In fact I wish every game on the CPC had been programmed with mode '0' in mind. Still, that doesn't stop Wec-le mans being my favourite racer on the CPC.

[MacDeath]

Thundercat actually has 7 colours at best.


Ideally to me, an horizontal game should get 2 HUD (one top and one bottom) juste as for Black Tiger per exemple, then the gaming area should also get its 3 rasterzones, totalling in 5 zones, but this must actually be difficult to achieve.

I wonder if the PLUS range enable this more easily ?

But I wouldn't say games in mode1 are always graphical craps.

Head over Heels is quite good actually, also Deflector.

The bad rap on mode1 is mainly because of unmodified graphics from speccy and poor use of ditherings then.

But some sweet adventure games are well using the Mode1 too.


Back to the golden age and Fer & Flammes (obvious on this on, lol) (Iron and Flames)

l'anneau de Zengara (Fer&Flammes 2 = Zengara's Ring) and Le Maitre des Ames (= the master of the souls)

Holocauste  and L'Ile (the Island)

Le Maraudeur (obviously...Marauder) and Zombi (the very first UBI soft game, released first on Amstrad CPC !) which settled the UBI soft speciality in RPG and adventure games in mode1...
Also other zombi versions were actually Amstrad's ports ! Yet because they were released after, they were upgraded (better interface) as can be seen with the speccy or 16bit version with a slightly better interface...).


IronLord (obvious, a typical Atari ST port) and Night Hunter (was done by the same people than Back to the Golden Age, as can be seen by the same colours choices and perhaps the same engine..)

Most of those games were not really animated and I think it's a shame   they didn't feature a pair of rasters...nor a 256x240 resolution for   example...

But I bet some setting like this yet with a more Might   and Magic 3 system (really RPG...) and an improuved interface wouldn't   hurt...

As you can see, French used to do Mode1 better because it was Atari ST ported instead of being Speccyported.
Night hunter and Back to the golden age were more action oriented, yet had a bit of RPG mechanics...
And many of those games did had some sort of sequels...
I didn't put you all of those but just go to CPCpower and look at games per editors = UBI soft...

-Fer & Flammes + l'Anneau de Zengara
-Zombi + Hurlement
-Le Maitre des Ames and Le maitre Absolu (Absolut Master, a futuristic setting yet with the same engine)...


Also UBI soft did a few action games in Mode1 Atari ports :
-Skate Ball and Twinworld...

[cpc4eva]

First off...

Thundercats HOOO!!!

Thundercats are on the move,
Thundercats are loose,
Feel the magic, hear the Roar,
Thundercats are loose...

I quite liked Thundercats, especially flying through the air on those er' dufur loofer style ships. Secondly, all games in any other mode than '0' look crap, but can sometimes play really well.

If every game looked like Renegade, Chase HQ and Gryzor the CPC would have been even more a thing of beauty. I always loved Wec-le-mans, but wished it used mode '0'. In fact I wish every game on the CPC had been programmed with mode '0' in mind. Still, that doesn't stop Wec-le mans being my favourite racer on the CPC.

thundercats was oe of those exceptions quite enjoyable and the little shuttle ship was quite fast


the loading screen of wec le mans is in gorgeous cpc colour and then looks terrible in game but as you say plays very well.


thats a game that could use a colour patch how easy / difficult would it be to do to change the in game colour scheme ?


with mode 0 alot of colourful games did look great and play well as you mentioned renegade etc but alot also tendered to be slow and jerky and a real let down.


some mode 1 games did look and play great without the full colour but then again like nigel mansels gp using only 4 colours and most of it blue it didnt look that great or play that well. 

[Gryzor]

Man, your choice of screenshots is fantastic... but you should put the game's name underneath each one just for us who are not that familiar with the French market...

[MacDeath]

Sorry...
you can leftclick on them and choose "display screen" to get to the CPC powers page, where you may see the name of the game on the address.
er...oops, it doesn't work...

OK I edit the post then.

Perhaps if I can find the time to edit in the wiki again, I would do some page concerning the French Games companies...

The typical Amstrad games companies were UBI soft and Loriciel(s).
Of course Infogram (now ATARI...) did some, Titus was good but a bit late and many games are not that fantastic (were better on 16 bits).
ERE informatique did a lot of adventure games too (Captain Blood...)

Adventure games were quite easy to do actually because they had almost no animation.
Most of them were text based, otherwise, they would be exactly as some LucasArt point and click game.

A fun part was because you entered text, you could write dirty worlds and slurs, and thegame could punish you because you were not polite.

Exemple : game like "Qin"


If you entered word like "Merde" (shit) or "connard" (Cuntard) in the console, you had an image of a man being whipped... and you had to apologize...
Also those games despite in Mode1 often changed the palette so you had a coloufull impression during the game...a bit as in Head over Heels whit a lot of different palettes settings (4, perhaps more ?).

And as those game weren't tile based graphics, of course you had to load each picture but those were well worked graphically and artistically.

Also those games had a lot of humor.

See les passagers du temps :

You can see the Amstrad's Crocodile doing a "featuring", but also the cat from Gaston Lagaffe, a famous Belgic comics...

Also, I think those game can show that having 4 colours "only" but with no character attribute enable a far more deep graphic representation.

Just try to port those graphics on a speccy...
Having not to follow the square broders of the characters and the ability to really mix the few colours can give a coloured feeling.


So back to topic, Shadow of the Beast suffers from its Speccy origin.

Look at Night Hunter or Back to the Golden Age to see what a mode1 sprite on CPC would actually be like.

Most sprites on Speccy ports were almost square, large, and had some sort of Halo around their Edge.
It was done because otherwise you couldn't see the sprites on Speccy.

You can see this on Midnight Resistance per example...

But on CPC a clever choice of the colours of the dithering (as you may dither in 3 colours or even 4...) enable to get rid of such technics.
And you have a lot more textures in CPC's mode1 than you have on Speccy.

The SotB mock up I did are basically untoucher, I yust recoloured the "White"... mostly.
But it's still a Black and white conception (Yellow and white actually...lol...)


I'm working on this for the R-Type remake.

[ukmarkh]

Did Titus actually make any games, thought they were just an outsourcing company.

[Devilmarkus]

Don't forget the German game "Fres Fighter II turbo"
   

[MacDeath]

Yep, Titus made their own games in the late 80's/early 90's on CPC.

http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=staff&lenom=Titus

Notable ones ?

--The Crazy Car series (Crazy Car 2 being shitty on GX4000 obscures the fact it was quite good on CPC at its time)
--Fire and Forget 1 & 2 (not that bad on GX4000...)
--Prehistorik 1 & 2 (good platformer yet a bit sluggish, especially the rushed 2nd opus)
--Moktar/Titus the Fox (one of the greatest computer platformer of its era... On PC I played it a lot)

some movie franchises adaptations :
--Arachnophobia
--Blues Brother (too bad the CPC version was in mode1 IMO... but hey, it's Blue...)
--Dick Tracy (good graphics actually but awfull game...)

The problem ? many of their games were awesome graphically, yet quite bad Gameplaywise.

KnightForce :


Or Galactic Conqueror...


But their Intro pages are often amongst the best the CPC can offer...

Don't forget the German game "Fres Fighter II turbo"

Of course, but hey...

Fres/Bollaware games were great Mode1 too, and la Abbadia del Crimen was awesome too.

Black LAnd also has an awesome cinematic intro...


And la Abadia del Crimen seems quite good too.

[villain]

ERE informatique did a lot of adventure games too (Captain Blood...)

I just remember that ERE Informatique also released Macadam Bumper. No impressive gfx but I spent probably weeks with this game. :-)

[ukmarkh]

I quite liked Fire & Forget on the CPC... took me a while to complete it, but a worthy challenge all the same. Titus the Fox as it was known in the UK was good graphically, but oh so crap in practice. The bloody thing slowed to a snails pace the second anything happened on screen and the controls were bloody sluggish. I also liked Crazy Cars II on the console, had the map inbuilt making the game a little more playable than the stock CPC version. Fres Fighter II looked good and played half decent, but that one button limitation reared its ugly head yet again and ruined what could have been a classic.

Titus seemed to me to be all graphics and little gameplay back when I was a kid... but recently I played the below and thought they were great:

Crazy Cars 3 - Amiga / CPC
Lamborghini - Amiga
Fire & Forget II - Master System (Shite on CPC).
Robocop for the Gamecube / PS2 and XBOX versions are rubbish.

[Gryzor]

This is getting more like a Best Of thread, with an emphasis on little-known (outside La France, that is) gems MacDeath, thanks for all the pointers!!!