Tron 3X

[TFM]

I posted this in the FutureOS ML, join if you are interrested or let's start an altenate discussion here...

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Hi all!

I'm thinking (for a while now) about a new game for CPC & FutureOS. This game starts where the movie Tron Legacy ends. It will be a long term (some years) project, because I want to ultimatively use all the power of the CPC.

The following technical requirements are needed:

- CPC6128 and CPC Plus (or only the CPC-Plus?)
- 3.5" (or 5.25") B-drive or hard-disc
- 512 KB expansion RAM
- Digiblaster

The game shall have a real good story, everyone of you can contribute. If here is enought interrest, then we can start up in creating the story and plot of the game.

It shall have RPG and action elements and a lot more. So a kind of everything doable on CPC.
Video sequences will be used to provide additional informations. This needs a hard-disc. For example at SF2 or the Dobbertin one. With drive only, the video sequences must be shorter.

Also (digitized) Sounds shall be uses. Complete tracks in best quality. Therefore we can use a Digiblaste and/or an MP3 card.

The game will be sold including needed hardware add-one. It shall be cheaper or free for all the developpers. We also can produce Plus cartridges (since I bought 100 ACIDs).
Now, if you users and programs out there like this ideas, then you can contribute, f.e.:

- Story
- Sound
- Graphics
- also coding
- whatever you like

This game shall reach the borders of the CPC with expansions. It's not inteded to be a 128 KB game. We want to get the maximum out of our trusty machine to show the rest of the world what a CPC can do!

What do you thing? Feel free to give any kinds of comments.

Greetings programs,
TFM

[mr_lou]

I can see the coolness in a game that uses all kinds of expansions. Of course, since I'm using a CPC464 I think it should run on that too - if expanded.

Currently my CPC464 has 128k ram, Digiblaster, 3.5" drive.
I think if a CPC464 has 512k ram, then the game should also run on a CPC464.

Anyway, plot idea: Tron is back now, Clu is dead, how about this simple idea: You control Tron and fights against the remaining of Clu's soldiers in various different ways we know from Tron and Tron Legacy.

[Gryzor]

very interesting and very, very ambitious. Haven't seen TL yet, but I'd pay for a game like that in a second!

But, I think that what you say, "The game will be sold including needed hardware add-ons", is maybe more ambitious than the programming itself... what would be the cost and where would you source all the add-ons?

[arnoldemu]

What do you thing? Feel free to give any kinds of comments.

I think it will be the first to use this much ram and this kind of storage for a game.

I think it would take a long time to develop - and I really hope the authors will not get demotivated and stop.

I can help with some code examples or some functions if needed, but I can't give any more than this to it.

I wish you success and I hope it succeeds. I will watch with interest.

[Targhan]

I don't want to sound negative, but do you understand that it will take you years to make this game, that only a few people can play, because of the RAM extension, the hard drive ?
We barely made Orion Prime possible, and we *simply* made it run on a *simple* CPC with 128k. It took us years. And we're really good at what we were doing.
My advice would be : don't get too ambitious... But I wish you luck.

[sigh]

It's interesting to see an RPG on a CPC. I used to play a lot of RPG's on my PS1 and PS2 which were usually imported from the US as a lot of them didn't get a UK release. How many hours is the game going to be? I haven't seen Tron and cant really remember much about the first one. Would you make it "Monkey Island" point and click style, or would you make it more "JPRPG" style? I would of thought with such a big game that a PLUS machine would probably be the way to go....

[Gryzor]

I'd buy it, but I doubt I'd ever get it to run on a real machine although I do have some of the prerequisites. I'd buy it just for its collectability.

On the other had, if hardware is included... which makes me wonder: what if someone (like me) does own some of the hardware but not all? Will there be custom orders? It seems highly complex to me...

Re: Orion Prime: I bought it on both 3" and 3.5". I only opened the 3" package, loaded it once to satisfy myself and check out the box, rip the CD and look at the feelies, but after that I just played it from the HxC. I love you guys for pushing the ordinary CPC to its limits and for such a great game, though I'd really like to see what could be done with a Plus machine. Which is why I would be rooting for such an ambitious project as the one we're discussing here!

[TFM]

 
WoW!  A lot of comments here! I see interest does indeed exist. Great! Thank's to all of you for your comments.

I don't want to sound negative, but do you understand that it will take you years to make this game, that only a few people can play, because of the RAM extension, the hard drive ?

No question, it will take years. But it's already 2011, so who cares ;-) I know that from my Giana Sisters clone - which takes too much time anyway, but will be finished this year.

The game will sold in different variations, including needed hardware, so basicly everybody with a CPC6128 or CPC-Plus will be able to play it. I'm prepared to provide the needed hardware for a very low price (exactly what it costs myslef). Further I may can sell some stuff to get some money to fund the hardware to make the final product much cheaper.

Mr. Lou: Thanks for your ideas. Great!!! Thery will be part of the game. However we can't use the 464, because it misses some banking features, needed for overscan, RAM management etc. This game project shall cover the higher end of that what a mega-expanded-CPC can do. For 464 there will be other projects

It's interesting to see an RPG on a CPC. I used to play a lot of RPG's on my PS1 and PS2 which were usually imported from the US as a lot of them didn't get a UK release. How many hours is the game going to be? I haven't seen Tron and cant really remember much about the first one. Would you make it "Monkey Island" point and click style, or would you make it more "JPRPG" style? I would of thought with such a big game that a PLUS machine would probably be the way to go....

Yes, I'm thinking hard about a Plus only game. But finally we will have a CPC old generation and a Plus version I guess - and in this case the Plus version will be really advance.

While I did the concept of Giana Sisters for the CPC6128, it's Plus version will have some upgrades. In the case of our Tron game, we shall start up with the Plus version, and developp the CPC old generation version afterwards. So we'll going to use the Plus right.

Yes, I definitely want to have RPG elements / RPG levels in the game. Do you know Pier Solar? I'm thinking about that kind of technique, but it will surely look Tron like!

Further other kinds of game play will be there. The idea from Mr. Lou will cover an action part of the game.

Arnoldemu: Thank's for your offers of example code. Well, I'm quite experienced with Plus and CPC coding. This is all not the problem. But in case would like to contribute a Mini-Game or a part of it that would be amazing.

[steve]

If you put your game on a 512k cartridge, would it then be possible to run with "only" 128k ram?

And the plus version could offer the choice of digital or analogue joystick.

[TFM]

If you put your game on a 512k cartridge, would it then be possible to run with "only" 128k ram?

And the plus version could offer the choice of digital or analogue joystick.

Yes right the Digital Joystick provides a complete new game feeling. On the old CPCs it can be archieved in part by using a mouse (PS2 on SF2 f.e., or the ST-mouse) or an trackball.

Imagine, controling a light-cycle on the new grid needs analogue input. On the old grid the digital one was enough.

It's hard to tell now if a Plus with 128 KB will be enough at the end. If not, the game will be released with all needed expansions.

[steve]

But with the program and data on a cartridge, you would only use ram for screens and temporary data.

[HAL6128]

  I don't want to sound negative, but do you understand that it will take you years to make this game, that only a few people can play, because of the RAM extension, the hard drive ?
We barely made Orion Prime possible, and we *simply* made it run on a *simple* CPC with 128k. It took us years. And we're really good at what we were doing.
My advice would be : don't get too ambitious... But I wish you luck.     @Targhan  Sounds interesting... You had good experiences with Orion Prime. It's an remarkable game. Three or four people were working together on the game? So, what were the most time consuming part of programming or creating the game? Static grafix, sounds/music, sound effects , creating and adapting a plot for a computer game, find a good programming routine, just idle time? What do you think? Let me know.     @TFM  I'm also very intressted in new games which show how much a CPC can achieve, even with expansions. (The core Z80 and therefore the speed would always be the same. Am I right?). By the way... what about using an expansion (e.g. Symbiface or CPCBooster) for calculation use. The CPCBooster has 10kB? free space for programming ROM Routines. Is it possible that those expansions can act like a parallel processor for math routines?

[Targhan]

>sounds interesting... You had good experiences with Orion Prime. It's an remarkable game. Three or four people were working together on the game? So, what were the most time consuming part of programming or creating the game? Static grafix, sounds/music, sound effects , creating and adapting a plot for a computer game, find a good programming routine, just idle time? What do you think? Let me know.   


I did all the code, screenplay and original texts. All this took a crazy amount of time. Even if you don't always see it, there are a lot of technical and artistic innovations in this game. And it's just a game on a machine we knew VERY well... So now let's think about what you can possibly imagine with 512kb RAM, cpc PLUS, hard drive and so on, which gives a machine that you don't know in the end. Even with generated gfxs with Orion Prime, it took us a lot of time. Now what are you going to fill all your 512kb memory with, how are you going to create all this ? To me it's simply crazyness. Especially with a team of people all over the world you don't know. Sylvestre was "only" 100 miles from my home (now we're almost neighbours . It wouldn't have worked in other conditions. Grim was kind of fired because he wouldn't work fast enough on gfxs. But I'm sure he wouldn't have been fired if he had lived nearby.
To me you're too ambitious, and you have too many unknown variables in your equation. If you want to make a Tron RPG, you'd better make a 3D engine with a cool line rendering / surface filling. Faster to code and it will work on a plain CPC .

[Targhan]

Oh, maybe you've heard of Aventury, a RPG that the guys from Futur's wanted to code. They are very very good coders. Well, they didn't make it, but it took them 10 years to admit it.  And they knew their CPC Plus better than anyone else on earth (and it's still true to this day).

[steve]

@Targhan, you may think it is an impossible task, but that is no reason not to try.

I expect most of the 512k will be filled with graphics and sound.

[Targhan]

>I expect most of the 512k will be filled with graphics and sound.


Yes. But the point is : WHAT graphics and WHAT sound. I'm a musician, know both world of soundchip and lengthly samples played at the fastest rate. You need people to compose the songs, create the sounds, modify the sounds for them to fit the CPC. It's a hell of a work. And the graphics. Everyone was in awe in front of the tiny (Yes ! Tiny !) graphics of Color Lines. How long to get the creations of all the graphists, who only had to draw a, what, 17k page of little sprites ?
I only talk for my experience, but I actually don't know anyone on CPC who worked on bigger project than I did, and *actually* released them.

[Xyphoe]

Interesting topic, and then discussion.
I'll just give my snap judgement and quick thoughts without over-analysing -

   
• Basing it on Tron is a bad idea, firstly for licensing and copyright issues. I've seen projects that have been worked on for years and completed, having to be ditched completely due to the copyright holder sending cease and desist letters etc - I remember there was a big Spectrum game project, unfortunately I can't remember for what game but it was based on a famous Spectrum game (big release at the time) that looked and played amazing, but had to be completely ditched due to copyright infringement and the fact that it would take far too long for the programmer to take out all the parts that did infringe so the project was canned and never released. Very sad, and what a waste of time and effort.
• Also secondly cause not everyone likes or is that excited by Tron. I remember it as a fun kitchy movie from my childhood, but I don't think I'm going to bother seeing Tron 2.0 at the cinema ... just not that exciting or enticing. But hey maybe that's me.
• The idea of writing a game to take advantage of new CPC hardware is definitely an intriguing idea ... it could kickstart more people into getting this hardware and therefore more games being produced on it.....
• ....but it should have reasonable limits. The only 'add-ons' I have for my CPC is a Multiface 2 (lol), a 3.5" disk on its way shortly and I'm contemplating the SD card reader. Unless the game was absoultely 'amazing' I have no need to buy extra ram, CPC booster, hard disk, etc - it could be a big failure, unless you're happy with people playing via emulator  - but then you wouldn't make any money. Don't stretch yourself too thinly making it only work several pieces of hardware that only very few will buy or have
• The hardware must be readily and easily available, from trustworthy suppliers. Some new hardware I looked at getting, I didn't like the poorly designed website and other factors made me uncomfortable parting with cash for some unknown person 100s of miles away. Plus it would work if you could do a package deal for the game and the hardware.
• Why not look to do and collaborate on a sequel to Orion Prime instead? You have such a good base there....

[MacDeath]

I agree...
Tron is too big a license and franchise for us...

we'll have to call.

Captain Ersatz...where are You ?
=That's a job for ErsatzMan!!!

Perhaps reviving the Loriciel's DISC franchise then ?

The Grid ? too obvious...(well, not really actually...) Grid Fighterz ?
The Matrix ? already used too... what else ?

[Xyphoe]

I wouldn't look at other existing licences either, just in case.

Even the R-Type and Great Giani sisters remakes could potentially have trouble, although I don't think any of the licence holders will really care.

Why not create your own world, characters and setting?

[TFM]

But with the program and data on a cartridge, you would only use ram for screens and temporary data.

Right and:
- Changing variables in the matix of a map (16 KB more...)
- Changing f.e. Sprite-Gfx in certatin conditions.

Ok, let's see, it could work out with 128 K RAM and everything else in 512 KB Cartridge-ROM.

However, movie scenes (and I want them ;-)) must be on hard-disc.

  I don't want to sound negative, but do you understand that it will take you years to make this game, that only a few people can play, because of the RAM extension, the hard drive ?

Right, it will take years. But everybody will be able to play, because all needed hardware will be supplied with the game.

We barely made Orion Prime possible, and we *simply* made it run on a *simple* CPC with 128k. It took us years. And we're really good at what we were doing.

Right, to make it running on a 128 KB machine can be a pain. But with more RAM it will be a bit more easy and more comprehensive.

@TFM  I'm also very intressted in new games which show how much a CPC can achieve, even with expansions. (The core Z80 and therefore the speed would always be the same. Am I right?). By the way... what about using an expansion (e.g. Symbiface or CPCBooster) for calculation use. The CPCBooster has 10kB? free space for programming ROM Routines. Is it possible that those expansions can act like a parallel processor for math routines?

The Booster+ is indeed a hot candidate. Right, 4 MHz, cpu will not be change. It shall stay a real CPC.

But up to now nobody ever tried to make a game for a fully expanded CPC. So let's give it a try. Well, I got some experiences in long-time projects. I will not abandon it, as soon as there are some problem. We'll solve them :-)

[TFM]

I did all the code, screenplay and original texts. All this took a crazy amount of time. Even if you don't always see it, there are a lot of technical and artistic innovations in this game. And it's just a game on a machine we knew VERY well... So now let's think about what you can possibly imagine with 512kb RAM, cpc PLUS, hard drive and so on, which gives a machine that you don't know in the end. Even with generated gfxs with Orion Prime, it took us a lot of time. Now what are you going to fill all your 512kb memory with, how are you going to create all this ? To me it's simply crazyness. Especially with a team of people all over the world you don't know. Sylvestre was "only" 100 miles from my home (now we're almost neighbours . It wouldn't have worked in other conditions. Grim was kind of fired because he wouldn't work fast enough on gfxs. But I'm sure he wouldn't have been fired if he had lived nearby.
To me you're too ambitious, and you have too many unknown variables in your equation. If you want to make a Tron RPG, you'd better make a 3D engine with a cool line rendering / surface filling. Faster to code and it will work on a plain CPC .

Right it may be crazy ... and maybe there will be never a bigger game than OP (I wouldn't wonder). On the other hand ... I like the idea to use a fully equipped CPC.
Well, with all my experiences creating FutureOS a fully expanded CPC is a machine, that I know very well... and with help from the scene we can make it all reality.

I'm already working on a 3D engine, that runs well, but it's a version for 128 KB, that must be (the best) completly redone.

If we all do a very well defined part of the game, then it will work out. And it's not too much work for the single person.

So.... I guess... after creating the story of the game, we need to define clear standarts first. If we start up the right we, it's all doable.

Oh, maybe you've heard of Aventury, a RPG that the guys from Futur's wanted to code. They are very very good coders. Well, they didn't make it, but it took them 10 years to admit it.  And they knew their CPC Plus better than anyone else on earth (and it's still true to this day).

Right, this is indeed a very good point! Time is the critical thing at all! But we got time ;-) As long as people don't loose the interrest after 70% of the way...

@Targhan, you may think it is an impossible task, but that is no reason not to try.

I expect most of the 512k will be filled with graphics and sound.

Right, let's try it!!! About the RAM... we can put gfx and corresponding routines in the same 16 KB expansion RAM block, so the main memory must not be used for it. For example: Player sprites and their routine are in the same RAM. Or.. sound and player are in the same RAM.

Banking is a task that must be considered from the beginning.

And about the main memory. If we work with overscan (beautifull!) then only 32 KB are left ;-)

[TFM]

Yes. But the point is : WHAT graphics and WHAT sound. I'm a musician, know both world of soundchip and lengthly samples played at the fastest rate. You need people to compose the songs, create the sounds, modify the sounds for them to fit the CPC. It's a hell of a work. And the graphics. Everyone was in awe in front of the tiny (Yes ! Tiny !) graphics of Color Lines. How long to get the creations of all the graphists, who only had to draw a, what, 17k page of little sprites ?
I only talk for my experience, but I actually don't know anyone on CPC who worked on bigger project than I did, and *actually* released them.

We have a lot of potential in the CPC scene, everybody can contribute what he/she can do the best. So if enought people have interrest, the single person can do his/her favorite thing on CPC and it's not too much work.

Good organisation is needed, but step by step

I agree...
Tron is too big a license and franchise for us...

we'll have to call.

Captain Ersatz...where are You ?
=That's a job for ErsatzMan!!!

Perhaps reviving the Loriciel's DISC franchise then ?

The Grid ? too obvious...(well, not really actually...) Grid Fighterz ?
The Matrix ? already used too... what else ?

Right, but to find a good name for the game will be a smaller task ;-) And we can wait some time with it... Release name must not be the same as the working title.. :-)

I wouldn't look at other existing licences either, just in case.

Even the R-Type and Great Giani sisters remakes could potentially have trouble, although I don't think any of the licence holders will really care.

Why not create your own world, characters and setting?

Well, our Giana clone will be called "Return of the Sisters" or better "Tribute to the Sisters". Tolkin can decide at the end. Whatever. But a "fan project" for some 8 bit computers will hopefully not create too much trouble. And Gravenreuth is &DEAD.

About the new world... IMHO Tron is absolutely fascinating and you can get so much out of this idea about a digital world. Further we are open to create own world etc... what ever we want.

[jbaudrand]

Targhan: +1
  I must admit your project catch my attention, but great graphics, great   cinematic doesn't mean the game will be good, orion prime was a great   game because the story and the "interface" were top notch. Of course the   graphics are top too, but just imagine the same graphics with a syntax   analyzer and I will never spend 5 minutes in it.
 
  And for 3d cinematic, I wish you good luck. making a good picture in   16Million colors that look great  requires a lot of work,trust me)  and   it doesn't mean it will be good converted in CPC format (you'll have to   rework it each frame...).

And why taking a copyrighted licence?
 

[HAL6128]

@Targhan
Respect for doing most stuff alone. Really! Even I couldn't comprehend it, caus' I'm not a coder.

@TFM
Yes, a good defined and coordinated project would maybe help to perform work in a bearable time.

I've never participate to such work. (I'm not a coder). But it's sound interesting. I would like to contribute to it. And it would be the first time to me to support a CPC project. Maybe I could do drawing work or stuff like that even it's defining a line, new fonts oder thousand of symbols as Targhan mentioned (sounds like standard work ...boring but necessary to complete )
...
Just have idealistic fun in a long term project

[HAL6128]

@Xyphoe

Short question: does licence copyrights impact something even it's not commercial (apart from violating patented names)?