What about a new 'commercial' game for GX/Plus range ?

[keith56]

Speaking from a personal point of view, GameDev is a 'loss leader'...
The majority of my patreon backing comes from people following my Youtube tutorials, as does the majority of the positive feedback I get... youtube vids take a week where as gamedev takes 8 months ... so they also take less time and cause less stress.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, people in the retro community are more interested in youtuber video creators than game devs - last time I said It I was speculating, now I'm saying it first hand.

Heck, it is what it is, but I'm not stupid, I'm going to allocate my time and effort to what I get the most positive return for, I'm trying to shift things so future games will be based around the code created for the tutorials, and will be more multiplatform to attract a larger possible audience, but if I had to give something up, I'd ditch the gamedev, and keep up the youtube vids - that's just common sense.

The other problem is, supporting more platforms means less platform specific features, so things like CPC+ sprites and hardware scrolling are not likely.

[dthrone]

That really, really cripples what you can do though. If you look at perhaps the biggest example, Prehistorik 2, there is no way it would have had to have that jerky push scrolling if it wasn't for the need to be able to work on a standard CPC.

I totally agree with this.  It's what concerned me with the announcement that the new Toki would be on classic cpc and plus, there's no way the game is going to be anywhere near as good as it can be unless they are developed separately and just share a few graphics etc.

[Widukind]

Interesting inputs! Thank you.
Indeed any indie retro project for old hardware is made because it's "fun & fame" and because it's a satisfiying challenge to achieve with old hardware its maximum output. That's been the main reason already when we created indie CPC games and demos many years ago, isn't it?

However, when doing an indie retro game today, the prospect of it returning some pocket-money wouldn't do any harm.

Some points are still not entirely clear:


1) User base CPC vs CPC+

Do we know some numbers concerning how many CPC retro fans are out there interested in new CPC games, in contrast to CPC+/Gx4000 retro fans? The poll in this thread indicates the CPC+/Gx4000 retro fans knowing this website.

In case the CPC market is as tiny as the CPC+ market, I still can't see a reason to skip the CPC market just because it's as tiny as the CPC+ one? :-)


2) Game version for CPC and CPC+

Clearly the CPC+ extra features are very attractive (they are to me, who only used a standard CPC), but still I wouldn't ignore the standard CPCs when doing a little retro game project, when possible. After all, we also love the original CPC.

To create a game in two versions for both CPC and CPC+ is of course a challenge, like I said, but I think well worth the effort. On the PC we always had to do it this way, isn't it? Most of the code base (logic etc) is shared between both versions, but the graphics "driver" path is different.

For example like with the original Ghost'n Goblins 32 years ago, and now Xifos' excellent CPC+ version. Such two versions of the same game I could imagine for a new retro game using both the CPC and CPC+.


3) Retro market C64, CPC, consoles

So you, Captain Past, noted that the well selling C64 retro game Sam's Journey is the great exception. That's unfortunate to hear, but very important to know. (Do we have numbers, by the way?)

So this means that the 8 bit retro market isn't comparable to, for example, the retro Dreamcast market. There the German retro game Sturmwind (2013) for Segas Dreamcast did very well and still does well five years later.

[kawickboy]

C64 like Atari 8 bits, is a platform well sold in the USA and we are talking about a homebrew for the classic C64. 1250 units sold within Germany, UK, Italy, Scandinavia and USA isn't so far in fact. CPC orders are coming mostly from France, Spain & UK.

[/size]I don't think Orion Prime sold more than 200 units but it was a free download at the same time and some people don't want to pay anything in retro (that's another problem). But are we talking about a one batch release or "as long as it's sold" release ?
[/size]
[/size]Binaryzone didn't publish their charts. Not more than Polyplay. The 1st sold cheap game with a simple but useful package, the 2nd one more expensive games with a luxury content. As both are selling quality games charts would be interesting to know.
[/size]
[/size]CPC+/GX4000 carts is a specific "market", not  inside the CPC market. Some people do collect GX4000 carts and don't care about CPC. Most of the hardware were sold in France and UK. And even there, when i read Amstrad Action it seems that it was really hard to find carts in UK stores and the games were published monthes after the franch release.

[tjohnson]

I can a attest to the fact it was hard finding games for the gx4000 when it was released.  I bought pro tennis at the time not because i really wanted it but because it was pretty much all i could find and just wanted some games for my new console.  There was department store, long gone, in Kingston on Thames that stocked a few where i bought 3 games from but i don't recall anywhere else stocking games.   No wonder it was a failure really when there was no software available for it and much was direct dump of existing games.

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[andycadley]

In case the CPC market is as tiny as the CPC+ market, I still can't see a reason to skip the CPC market just because it's as tiny as the CPC+ one? :-)

To be clear, it's not about skipping the CPC market - if you have a game that works well on the old hardware that's great and you should totally go for it. And it's a "nice to have" if it "lights up" a bit on the Plus hardware in the way that, for example, Chibi Akumas does.

To create a game in two versions for both CPC and CPC+ is of course a challenge, like I said, but I think well worth the effort. On the PC we always had to do it this way, isn't it? Most of the code base (logic etc) is shared between both versions, but the graphics "driver" path is different.

It just doesn't work like that in reality though. If you construct a scroll engine around the Plus pixel scrolling, for example, you can't then just "swap in" a slightly different routine to do the same on an old school CPC. You have to re-write everything that even vaguely goes anywhere near the display logic (and that's most of the code). You may have to redesign levels to cope with less fluid movement, redesign all of the graphics to cope with the lesser choice of palette and flat out remove or replace some functionality that the old school CPCs just can't do. The alternative is a "lowest common denominator" approach where you're really just targeting the original hardware and not really taking advantage of what the Plus has to offer.


PC games waste a lot of CPU time making those kind of scaling decisions because they have a lot of it to spare, every cycle on a CPC or Plus game is likely to be very precious.

So you, Captain Past, noted that the well selling C64 retro game Sam's Journey is the great exception. That's unfortunate to hear, but very important to know. (Do we have numbers, by the way?)

The C64 was a vastly more successful system than the entire CPC range combined and still has more of a global reach, so it's frankly just a better target if you want a financially viable retro platform. Even the Speccy is more likely to be able to support the cost of development than the CPC and I honestly doubt you'd make any real return on sales there either.

[Widukind]

PC games waste a lot of CPU time making those kind of scaling decisions because they have a lot of it to spare, every cycle on a CPC or Plus game is likely to be very precious.

Yes, but still the best optimisation in order to reduce cycles is the proper selection of algorithms and models.
Also, since a game needs a separate binary for the CPC (.dsk) and for the Plus (.cpr), the scale decisions – in contrast to PC games – would be done at compile-/assembling-time and not at run-time.

The C64 was a vastly more successful system than the entire CPC range combined and still has more of a global reach, so it's frankly just a better target if you want a financially viable retro platform.

That's true.

However, I always prefered and still prefer the European home-computers (ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPC, Acorn Archimedes) because they were better for us to learn how to program with their excellent OS, BASIC and Assembler.

[fano]

However, when doing an indie retro game today, the prospect of it returning some pocket-money wouldn't do any harm.

I would not present like this but i totaly agree the idea.

Do we know some numbers concerning how many CPC retro fans are out there interested in new CPC games, in contrast to CPC+/Gx4000 retro fans? The poll in this thread indicates the CPC+/Gx4000 retro fans knowing this website.

In case the CPC market is as tiny as the CPC+ market, I still can't see a reason to skip the CPC market just because it's as tiny as the CPC+ one? :-)

My point was not to skip the CPC market as main effect but it is a side effect.My goals when doing a Plus/GX game is to use their features, the game design itself would relies on the Plus features (mainly soft scroll, hardware sprites, DMA channels and ROM storage), it's not possible to transpose this on classical CPC without losing original design.

Now for example there's a nice C64 retro game "Sam's Journey", and its authors wrote on their website in March 2018 :
1,250 units in the starting three months, well that's not bad, isn't it? (Digital download version for 20 €, and boxed edition for 45 €.)

Impressive, i think it's close to a just good NES/MD game.

Don't underestimate the retrogaming general scene. Yes, the inquiry in this website didn't get many answers but remember r-type128, orion prime for exemple and recently the ghost'n'goblins remake. Thoses games are now famous in thoses communities. Many retrogaming webstes and boards mentioned them. You and Toto were invited to retrogaming meetings to show your work. In the french community Atlantis is now well-known for his Athanor saga.

Please don't misunderstand me, i think you know i have an idea about CPC/Plus scene.R-Type has been and is still a great success, i'm very happy how community received it, i see it on social medias at least every week, reviews, speak about it with a lot of people, btw i officially released the source with assets lately to allow a Plus cartrige port.My question was a bit different, i know a good game would be greatly received by community, the question was more about attractivity of the Plus 'market' for some homebrew devs.

#Super Mario Bros
I think there's been two attempts and work in progress already, not sure how far these are. But maybe you could turn yours into Super ROLAND Bros, using the various Roland sprites for different power-up states - and go off and make your own game design with a homage to the original Super Mario? I'd like to see this on the Plus/GX4000 though with the available hardware sprites / scrolling for a smooth fast experience.

Remember seeing some messages about this, i think that could be a great idea.People who would make it must take the time to do a great job, that could be a future reference in terms of quality.

[Shining]

Due to the lack of existing hardware, I don't think a plus-game will get more "customers" than a classic-cpc-one.


Defence was a game not for any kind of players and I "sold" about 25 copies for classic 128k CPC. Since I gave Polyplay Pentomino for free, I cannot give any numbers here.


Like keith, I'm always sad about the lack of feedback, nevertheless a plus-exclusive, cartridge-exclusive game is definitely in my pipeline for a long time now and I researched about cartridge-cases for over 4 years. Now, that I have a solution here, I can move on...


I don't care about the market and I don't care about multi-platform, I care about CPC and nothing else...

[GUNHED]

Not completely off-topic I hope: How much would one Cartridge-Shell cost?


What would be the best way to get them?

[keith56]

Since I gave Polyplay Pentomino for free, I cannot give any numbers here.

I have ordered it, so you have at least one sale!

I'm sure that people on here will hate it, but the patreon model works well for me, people who make a $1 a month donation get weekly updates with behind-the-scenes info, early access to the game etc, and it helps me keep going through the times my motivation is drying up.

I don't know if there's any other ways for fans of game developers to make small contributions to the ongoing development to in exchange for behind the scenes info or input into the games final content,via a platform like Patreon, Twitch or Youtube livestreams?

Essentially boxed copies of retro games are selling for the same price today as they did in the 80's, despite 30 years of inflation,  the lack of mass production and big publisher backing and 3 inch disks being rare as hens teeth..., if you wanted to encourage more (or better) development through financial reward it would seem to me some kind of 'alternate revenue stream' is needed.

[Shining]

Not completely off-topic I hope: How much would one Cartridge-Shell cost?




What would be the best way to get them?

As I said to you in the past, I'm not very interested in selling them but to produce a game on cartridge. If there is an interest, I can collaborate with bryce to give a complete solution: catridge with eprom  + case. Now that I have a shell-solution which satisfies me, I need a pcb-solution. But paying the initial-costs alone keeps me away from it at the moment.  I discussed that with Bryce already. To get a price, I can live with, there is a need to produce a minimum of 100 pcb (costs about 16-18€ without EPROM but with all other stuff including acid-emulator). And I cannot pay that amout of money. I do not know, if there is a general interest by others to get something on cartridge, now that the c4cpc exists. But for me, I sometimes want cartridges with my own stuff on it (like a special system cartridge or something like that). Perhaps it is worth to do a poll about cartridge-solution.

[Maniac]

I’d be pretty interested if it was the right product for my tastes. But I guess there lays the issue; you can’t please everyone! A take on a popular genre such as a platform game would likely fulfil that. Something along the lines of Mayhem in Monster Land or similar seems a good fit for a Plus game to me.

[GUNHED]

If we could get Cart-Shells I would take about 100. 

[ukmarkh]

That's an interesting thread. I really enjoyed reading it. Whilst I never owned a CPC+/GX4000, just a normal CPC, I recently discovered the CPC+ features and really love them.

Do we have some numbers concerning the CPC+ user base? For example on Wikipedia we read that Amstrad sold only 15,000 GX4000 units. But what about the CPC+ (464+ and 6128+) ?

Lots of GX4000’s were sold off cheap in the U.K. hundreds of thousands, there must be at least 500,000 that were sold off in the end. I remember one warehouse in Sparkbrook, Birmingham selling ‘em for £25 each, another shop selling ‘em for £50. These warehouses literally had thousands.


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[keith56]

To get a price, I can live with, there is a need to produce a minimum of 100 pcb (costs about 16-18€ without EPROM but with all other stuff including acid-emulator). And I cannot pay that amout of money.

Could something like this be funded in a Kickstarter fashion?

If someone such as yourself has freely contributed software/demos/etc to the community before, I'd happily donate some money to help them with a project like this, even if there was no 'reward' to me on completion... I mean, I can't give money to every newcomer with an idea... but if someone with a solid reputation and reasonable chance of success has a good idea that could help the CPC community, but needs funding to help attempt it, that's the kind of thing I'd say people should be supporting if they can to help the CPC platform flourish.

[Captain Past]

I do not know, if there is a general interest by others to get something on cartridge, now that the c4cpc exists.

I have exactly one donor cart which I'm using for Ghost'n'Goblins. In good faith that there will be more games worth putting on cart I would be interested in having a few of them (ready to add an eprom, complete pcb/shell/acid solutions) here just in case. I definitely prefer real carts over handling naked eproms to play games.
And I agree that some kind of crowdfunding to get the initial funds (and hopefully even the price down a little more) is a good idea.

[amijim]

Hello there,it seems it is getting pretty hard to estimate the numbers.I suppose there are thousands of active amstrad users.It needs the pluses advanced technics to tease our eyes in 2018 yet i agree there is the retro old cpc market that may be needed to fund such an effort.First thing would be to lower the price or maybe a kickstarter would help more so as to gain publicity or the project to be funded by amstrad lovers who no longer have any active interest in a new game but would help donating  a couple of thousand euros only for the cause and because they can.Since i see some more motivation is needed,i will offer  a week of free vacation in my small hotel in Greece for any member putting his time in a game for amstrad.I may end up with no money but this means i will have more time loading games on amstrad.

[ukmarkh]

I’d pay a small fortune for a decent Outrun effort on the CPC or Plus, in fact a racing game for 2018/19 is definitely needed.


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[ivarf]

Lots of GX4000’s were sold off cheap in the U.K. hundreds of thousands, there must be at least 500,000 that were sold off in the end. I remember one warehouse in Sparkbrook, Birmingham selling ‘em for £25 each, another shop selling ‘em for £50. These warehouses literally had thousands.

Who says that there was 15 000 GX 4000 sold? Cliff Lawson at Amstrad?

[Widukind]

Who says that there was 15 000 GX 4000 sold? Cliff Lawson at Amstrad?

No, it would be nice to have such an accurate source.

I only quoted a vague source on Wikipedia , which could be untrue of course:

The GX4000 was both Amstrad's first and only attempt at entering the console market. Although offering enhanced graphics capabilities, it failed to gain popularity in the market, and was quickly discontinued, selling 15,000 units in total.^[3]
...
[3] "Retroinspection: GX4000". Retrogamer Magazine Issue 52 Pg64.

[roudoudou]

No, it would be nice to have such an accurate source.
I only quoted a vague source on Wikipedia , which could be untrue of course:

or maybe we can contact them (but i did not see any contact form/mail on their website)

[kawickboy]

A great game should attract customers originally not amstrad-compliant. A platform game like psycho fox/parasol stars, an action rpg like zelda/golden axe warrior or wonderboy 2/3, a racing game, a bomberman-like etc... Du to pier solar, beggar prince etc... some rpg fans came (back) to megadrive. Some people bought a lynx only for playing zaku (heir of pc denjin/air zonk).

[Widukind]

A friend told me that the publisher Protovision of the C64 retro game  Sam's Journey wrote in their recent newsletter that they now sold 2000 copies (since Christmas 2017).

I know that there's been a lot of factors which helped the propagation for this game already before it's been published (including hyping), so it's not 1:1 comparable to other retro games. Nevertheless it shows that there can be a huge interest in retro games.
Well, let's see. Interesting times for sure.

[amijim]

I just found out who Fano really is.I didnt know you are behind Easter egg and the brilliant r-type.You are already welcomed for free vacation in Sept in Greece for your hard work back in 2012.I will send you now a PM.Together will all team of Easter EGG.Kudos to Easter EGG team.