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Author Topic: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)  (Read 7446 times)

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Offline Prodatron

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #25 on: 10:42, 10 November 14 »
The App is not dump, in contrast, it knows exactly in which environment it is running and it has full interface power / control over the hardware. Anything else makes it slower.
This is, what I said before: If a program is written for a special platform and wants to be as fast as possible, squeezing out the last CPU cycle, it will not use an OS at all.

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Offline Trebmint

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #26 on: 11:37, 10 November 14 »

I don't refuse GUIs in general. But I think that a combination between GUI and text section is the best solution. Sadly people don't know it, and so it scares them off. Eventually... The command line may be the best and efficient way of UI anyway because people know it.
A WIMP looks nice, but that's about it. Efficient work with mousing around? No, the keyboard will be always more quick. What I don't like are windows, they either cut down the usable screen area or can not be displayed in full. Further the bring chaos to the surface, look at recent published GUI pictures with windows. That's for my poor eyesight just chaos, I don't see whats going on. Why not using a status line which allows to switch between different full screens, that would be nice.
Hmmm, perhaps you are playing devils advocate, but I'm one of the 99.99% of the world that uses Windows, OS10, Android, IOS, etc. I don't remember the public uproar when the last release of the Samsung CP/M 3.2 phone was released. Is a keyboard quicker? Well not if you don't know what the commands for an app are. The benefits of a GUI are a consistancy of use that I know I can click on an icon and the layout is mostly the same, and I can drag and drop file around. 99.9% of the world agrees, and if that makes me superficial then that's good as I'm not one of the techie paranoid luddites who think Microsoft, Google and Apple are compiling negative documents about them.
I also said a 100% command line, and you changed that to say that I was knocking anything with a command line. Virtually every modern OS has a command line still, they are useful, but people rarely use them. My issue with Fuzix is that it might be the most capable system, but its worthless as its not user friendly... So fine i'm superficial just like every other sane person

Offline Ygdrazil

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #27 on: 13:57, 10 November 14 »


I don't get it TFM!!!


You can always perform better (faster) by writing code that controls the hardware directly...   you don't even need an OS for that!!! So following your arguments the best OS is the most slim OS.. The slimmer the better - so the best OS must be no OS at all(!???), because every OS puts some sort of overhead between the programmer and the hardware! Where does FutureOS fit in? (Is it just 4 x 16Kb of nothing ( and yes I aknowledge that FutureOS has some very fast routines for printing letters and writing/reading disk) )?

IMO you reduce the complexity of an OS to a question of merely execution speed...

Speed of execution is not the only success criterion for an operating system!

Eg.

Abstration level
Size
Portablility
Versatility

So there will always be a tradeof between eg. portability vs size or size and execution speed etc., and this is much more complex than just a speedtest of writing disks!

Regards,
Ygdrazil
« Last Edit: 14:09, 10 November 14 by Ygdrazil »

Offline Jckf

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #28 on: 17:14, 10 November 14 »
It sounds to me like this boils down to what the definition of "best" is. One might argue that an operating system is better if it's more user friendly, even if it's marginally slower than the competition.

Offline TFM

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #29 on: 21:50, 10 November 14 »

This is, what I said before: If a program is written for a special platform and wants to be as fast as possible, squeezing out the last CPU cycle, it will not use an OS at all.


That's a philosophic question. But if you call it an program it will need an OS at least to get loaded and started, also for data-storage I/O (floppy disc) and probably keyboard scanning and usage of UI or at least printing characters on the screen. It's not just black or white.  ;)


I don't get it TFM!!!

That's right. An OS shall be as close as possible to the App. - not as small a possible.
« Last Edit: 21:59, 10 November 14 by TFM »
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Offline TFM

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #30 on: 21:56, 10 November 14 »
Oh, an ugly command line OS... that's something from the 80's that IMHO should stay there. I must be missing something since everyone seems excited?

Hmmm, perhaps you are playing devils advocate, but I'm one of the 99.99% of the world that uses Windows, OS10, Android, IOS, etc. I don't remember the public uproar when the last release of the Samsung CP/M 3.2 phone was released. Is a keyboard quicker? Well not if you don't know what the commands for an app are. The benefits of a GUI are a consistancy of use that I know I can click on an icon and the layout is mostly the same, and I can drag and drop file around. 99.9% of the world agrees, and if that makes me superficial then that's good as I'm not one of the techie paranoid luddites who think Microsoft, Google and Apple are compiling negative documents about them.
I also said a 100% command line, and you changed that to say that I was knocking anything with a command line. Virtually every modern OS has a command line still, they are useful, but people rarely use them. My issue with Fuzix is that it might be the most capable system, but its worthless as its not user friendly... So fine i'm superficial just like every other sane person


Come on! First you give Fuzix shit and then you act like people misunderstand you. That's getting a bit like comedy here.
However, different people will always have different POV's of what's important.


What I want it that everybody respects the production of somebody else. Few know how much work it is to write an complete OS from scratch. So please everybody do appreciate any work done - especially when done for the CPC.  :) :) :)
« Last Edit: 22:47, 10 November 14 by TFM »
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Offline Bryce

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #31 on: 22:15, 10 November 14 »
Not really my subject, but I don't think you can say "best OS", because it depends entirely on what system and use the OS was optomised for. I use SuSE Linux with KDE on my main PC, it's "the best" for what I want. Fast, user-friendly and feature loaded with good multitasking. My Laptop has Windows 7, because most of my hardware / firmware programs are Windows only. I also have a 486 laptop with floppy drive and Win98 installed. It's "the best" for doing transfers to 8-bit disks, although it's neither the fastest, prettiest or feature filled compared to the others.

Bryce.

Offline CraigsBar

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #32 on: 22:37, 10 November 14 »
Not really my subject, but I don't think you can say "best OS", because it depends entirely on what system and use the OS was optomised for. I use SuSE Linux with KDE on my main PC, it's "the best" for what I want. Fast, user-friendly and feature loaded with good multitasking. My Laptop has Windows 7, because most of my hardware / firmware programs are Windows only. I also have a 486 laptop with floppy drive and Win98 installed. It's "the best" for doing transfers to 8-bit disks, although it's neither the fastest, prettiest or feature filled compared to the others.

Bryce.


Well these days I have Mac OSX on everything except my Raspberry Pi(s) and one Windows XP machine for floppy transfers.


Oh, and I will soon have a Mac Mini G4 1.5ghz which will run Morphos.


Craig


Offline Edoz(MSX)

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #33 on: 22:58, 10 November 14 »
I like the idea of the new UNIX like OS for the z80.. On the MSX there is already a unix/linux clone created in the past. Called Uzix http://uzix.sourceforge.net/uzix2.0/index.php?page=scrsht&lang=us

Would be cool to have a concurrent for SymbOS.. like windows/linux ;) for now I stay with SymbOS :) as I always have chosen windows :)

Offline Sykobee (Briggsy)

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #34 on: 23:35, 10 November 14 »
I didn't mean for this to get a bit flamey.


I think the fact that his OS is supposedly very Unix-like is a very neat thing to be running on a Z80, even if it's CLI only. I believe this is an advancement of Uzix actually.


Also, anyone actually USING a CPC today is hardly going to be someone that needs pointing in the right direction, and can cope with a CLI - as long as it is documented.


But Symbos, FutureOS, CP/M, etc - all great software too. Let's embrace the choice we have.




Offline Trebmint

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #35 on: 23:59, 10 November 14 »
*deleted*
« Last Edit: 10:45, 11 November 14 by Trebmint »

Offline Prodatron

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #36 on: 00:51, 11 November 14 »
That's a philosophic question. But if you call it an program it will need an OS at least to get loaded and started, also for data-storage I/O (floppy disc) and probably keyboard scanning and usage of UI or at least printing characters on the screen. It's not just black or white.

So that means we need program launchers only :D
If I would do a program, which should be as optimized as possible and specific to a special hardware, I wouldn't use an OS at all. In this case I and most others can do it much better and faster. E.g. printing text to the screen can be done about 70% faster (speaking about your always beloved strange speed comparisons -> a typical "black and white" notion, as you say...) compared to your OS. If I don't want any hardware abstractions, which would make my applications much more flexible, I won't use OS stuff at all, as there is no sense for this, like Ygdrazil already mentioned.
« Last Edit: 02:00, 11 November 14 by Prodatron »

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Offline Munchausen

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #37 on: 01:45, 11 November 14 »
Its not even written in Z80, doesnt run on the CPC, but is running on a machine without any users. The NC has no facebook group, No live websites, No forums. Why are people even wanting this?


I think the majority of people probably share your opinion. However there are a lot of people who still use command line for most of their work. I do almost all my work aside from web browsing and pdf viewing using a text interface. I'd quite appreciate a machine like the NC100 for doing programming in vim and checking emails without the distractions of the web etc. With a wireless serial connection to my PC and/or a serial GSM modem it would be awesome! I only wish that you could tilt the screen and that it had three times as many lines. I think you'll find there are a surprising number of people who feel the same... and I also know that similar devices are still favoured by some writers for being lightweight and having good keyboards, long battery lives, and being distraction free.

Offline TFM

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #38 on: 06:06, 11 November 14 »
Back to topic please.... and that is Fuzix.
« Last Edit: 19:44, 11 November 14 by TFM »
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Offline Prodatron

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Offline TFM

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #40 on: 19:35, 11 November 14 »
Has the Speccy 128 a 32 KB banking? Someone an idea how banking works with it?
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Offline MaV

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #41 on: 10:29, 12 November 14 »
Has the Speccy 128 a 32 KB banking? Someone an idea how banking works with it?
AFAIK, it has 16k pages which it switches into the upper 16k (&C000 - &FFFF).
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Offline Prodatron

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #42 on: 11:56, 12 November 14 »

GRAPHICAL Z80 MULTITASKING OPERATING SYSTEM

Offline TFM

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #43 on: 18:42, 12 November 14 »
Ok, so a port to the Speccy makes even more problems than a port to the CPC.


If I would port it, I would put the Fuzix in ROM and swap full 64 KB page. 4x better  ;)


EDIT: Like CP/M Plus does it.
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #44 on: 19:14, 12 November 14 »
Depending the project's use/futility: you people don't get it! If someone compiles Apache and PHP for it (or maybe nginx), we'll have the Wiki running from a NC200! (well, if we solve the storage issue)

Offline TFM

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #45 on: 19:42, 12 November 14 »
There is a hard disc for the NC200.  8)
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #46 on: 19:47, 12 November 14 »
No shit. Really???

Offline Munchausen

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #47 on: 20:21, 12 November 14 »
Yeah, really?! Do you mean HxC?!

Offline TFM

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #48 on: 22:07, 12 November 14 »
Yes, really. It gets connected to the printer port which can do I/O in both directions 8 bit. However, they are scarce. Would be nice to clone on though.


EDIT: Remember they called it something like Ranger Disc or so.

« Last Edit: 00:13, 14 November 14 by TFM »
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: FUZIX "Unix" for NC100 (and other Z80 systems soon)
« Reply #49 on: 19:31, 14 November 14 »
Here's a snippet I found here:

Quote
Can a hard disk drive be connected to the NC?

No! The Ranger disk service is only for the NC200 which is the one with a floppy drive. I hadn't spoken to Ranger when the NC100 was designed so there's definitely none of their code in that machine. However, the first time I spoke to Ranger was not for the NC200 but for the NC150 (that was only sold in French and Italian versions). I thought that the serial terminal in the NC100 was a bit naff and I'd heard of Ranger because they specialised in software for the Sinclair Z88 machine so I asked them to do a "tarted up" terminal program for the NC150. At that time they "hid" some extra code in the terminal which then let the machine be connected to their Z88 external floppy drive. Later on, when I came to do the NC200 I naturally asked them to do the disk software because they already had MS-DOS routines in Z80 code that they had done for their own Ranger disk. So the bottom line is that if you have an NC200 you already have a disk and built in Ranger disk routines, if you have an NC150 then the only bit of Ranger code is the terminal but it contains a hidden "hook" which allows the Ranger external disk to be connected to the machine and if you have an NC100 there is no Ranger code in it at all.

Cliff Lawson (Amstrad NC project manager) cliffl@amstrad.com