Author Topic: PCW10 boot disk  (Read 913 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 19rsn007

  • CPC464
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: nl
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
PCW10 boot disk
« on: 19:38, 21 October 18 »
Hello people.

I got hold of an amstrad pcw 10 in a fairly bad condition.
It wasn't doing anything when I got it and it collected a huge amount of dust and dirt.

I am working on restoring it to a fully working state and I got the machine to at least show signs of life.
When I turn it on the screen shows white and after a while it beeps a few times (I think because it can't find a bootable disk)
I have searched the internet like crazy but I can't find a disk image for this thing anywhere.

I've tried booting stuff on an emulator (CP/M Box) and found a lot of images (even for PCW games) but none of them boot in the PCW10 configuration.
Does anyone here have a working PCW-10 boot disk and is willing to provide me with an image?
Thanks in advance

Offline 19rsn007

  • CPC464
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: nl
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #1 on: 19:57, 21 October 18 »
I found this:
http://www.habisoft.com/pcwwiki/doku.php?id=en:sistema:indice

But the links are dead..... bummer

Offline GeoffB17

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 531
  • Country: gb
  • PCW since '85
  • Liked: 112
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #2 on: 20:43, 21 October 18 »
Hello,

I've not got a boot disk for a PcW 10, but if need be, maybe I could make you one?

I've looked up about this machine, and the info seems to be a little confused.   For example, the Dutch Joyce Club site says some things about the PcW 10 which I think are WRONG, and may well correctly refer to the PcW 16.

John Elliott's information appears to be different, and should be more reliable.   His Joyce emulator includes the PcW 10, and does NOT include the PcW 16.

Therefore, I'd expect that the PcW 10 uses 720k format 3.5" disks, which may well be similar to PCW 9256 or 9512.

I take it from your message that you do not have any disks.

Given what you say about the state of the machine, I think you need to see if the disk drive is working first.   The 'usual problem' with the PCWs, the rubber drive band going to goo, will not apply, but the 3.5" drive can still be upset with dust etc, but usually this can be cleared with a good blow!   There are two led sensors regarding disk in, and disk moving, that can get dusted up to they don't register, also the stepper mechanism can not work correctly, but this latter can often be overcome after many retries.  PCs can have the same troubles, I've often got a machine to work with a good blow!

John Elliot's pages include a chart of system versions, and there are some listed as being appropriate for the PcW 10.   I don't know if a FID extension is needed for the 3.5" boot, but this system may be capable of getting started on the basis of the data in the first sector of the disk.

Anyway, you've noted what happens if you try to start the machine with no disk in the drive.   What happens if you try with a 3.5" disk in (any disk).   Does it try to do more.   I could easily send you a possible boot disk and see what happens with that (correct format, boot code, .EMS and/or .EMT file.

Some info on the web suggests that the PcW 10 should be VERY similar to the PCW 9256, just using a 3.5" disk instead of the 3" disk (although there are some other differences, but not relevant to the boot).   So, if a disk image for the 9??? series can be found (I might have one of them ?) then it may be just a matter of copying files to a 3.5" disk?

Geoff

Offline 19rsn007

  • CPC464
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: nl
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #3 on: 20:54, 21 October 18 »
I've tried putting in a random disk, the drive makes some noise (motor spinning I think) and that is all it does.I think the drive (belt) is busted but I still have to check that.
I have no idea about the boot sequence or stuff like that..... I just got the machine ;)
I've also send john an e-mail and I am waiting for a reply (hope he still uses the e-mail on his web page)
now I am wondering if the games from other pcw system would work on this machine (I'd love to play some head over heels or maybe some of the newer releases)

Offline GeoffB17

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 531
  • Country: gb
  • PCW since '85
  • Liked: 112
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #4 on: 21:25, 21 October 18 »
If this machine uses the 3.5" disks, then there should be no drive belt.   You're saved that problem.   But dust could still be a problem.

The system may well be trying to read the disk you present, seeing that it is NOT a valid boot disk, and going no further?

The PcW 10 should be able to run the PCW games OK, assuming you can get them on a 3.5" disk   Your main problem could well be copy protection systems.

I've got a copy of Head over Heels, copied, which works fine on my PCW.   Also various Infocom games.   I was never that much into games, mind you.

Looking at some other references, I see that the PCW 9512 used 3" disks, later this machine was replaced by newer models, the 9256 and the 9512+, and these used 3.5" disks with the same format/capacity as the 9512 (i.e. 720k).   The PcW 10 is supposed to be similar to the later machines noted above, so SHOULD have a 3.5" disk.   I have at least one of the system versions that are supposed to work with the PcW 10.

Geoff

Offline 19rsn007

  • CPC464
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: nl
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #5 on: 21:31, 21 October 18 »
Yep it has a 3,5" diskdrive.
My main problem is that I can't seem to find an image which works in the emulator when it is set on PCW10

Offline GeoffB17

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 531
  • Country: gb
  • PCW since '85
  • Liked: 112
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #6 on: 21:41, 21 October 18 »
One thing to try - the Habi site, where the disks are shown, needs a Log-In.   Maybe it doesn't work/cannot see the items as you're not logged in.   Try to register so you can log in, and see if that helps.

If you're not getting anywhere, I'll happily create you a disk to try, that will do at least something.   Hopefully.

Geoff

Offline 19rsn007

  • CPC464
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: nl
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #7 on: 21:58, 21 October 18 »
Ok, so there is no register option there but I have send them an e-mail.
Fingers crossed!

I will let you know if this turns out with nothing

Offline GeoffB17

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 531
  • Country: gb
  • PCW since '85
  • Liked: 112
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #8 on: 23:27, 21 October 18 »
No, there is no register option.   That I can see.

Tried various things, no luck.   Maybe the files were there, but now are not, possibly removed due to legal concerns.

Like I said, if need be, I can make a disk for CP/M from files I have.   May need to take a few attempts to get ALL the right files.   Not so easy regarding LocoScript, if you want that too.   I have 3" disks for PCW 9512, and files all extracted (I do not have a DSDD drive 3", just the single sided original one, but I do have a 3.5" drive, and plenty of 3.5" DSDD disks) and can use 22DISK to copy files to CP/M format as required.   May be necessary to change the system file to one known to be appropriate for PcW 10.   May need some other tweaks??

Geoff

Offline 19rsn007

  • CPC464
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: nl
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #9 on: 19:13, 22 October 18 »
Hello again!
Yesterday I managed to get hold of the disk images for my PCW10 :)
Gonna write them back to a disk and test it on my real PCW-10
To be continued..... :)
« Last Edit: 12:10, 27 October 18 by 19rsn007 »

Offline 19rsn007

  • CPC464
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: nl
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #10 on: 22:52, 24 October 18 »
Okay more work to be done.
The floppy drive isn't working.
I am thinking about building a pinout adapter and just putting a pc 3,5" drive in there since I have some spares.

Gonna look and see what pins go where so I can build that adapter and get this baby on the road again.

Offline GeoffB17

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 531
  • Country: gb
  • PCW since '85
  • Liked: 112
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #11 on: 23:11, 24 October 18 »
How come you've decided that the floppy isn't working.   The drives are pretty robust, could just be dust.   What happened when you tried it?

I'll assume you've created the disk from the image OK?  What process did you use to do that

Do you have a program for the PC to allow you to inspect the disk, to make sure the right things are in the right places?

Geoff

Offline 19rsn007

  • CPC464
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: nl
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #12 on: 11:27, 26 October 18 »
I've created the disk with "CPCDiskXP v2.5.1".After creating the disk, I read it back to an image and that booted up fine in an emulator so the disk if fine :)
But the floppydrive in my PCW just makes a noise (like the motor spinning), but it doesn't start reading.
I was looking for info (pinout) of the floppydrive so I could maybe make an adapter for a "normal" pc 3,5" drive.

Offline GeoffB17

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 531
  • Country: gb
  • PCW since '85
  • Liked: 112
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #13 on: 17:09, 26 October 18 »
Hrllo,

I'm not certain about this, but I'm pretty sure the PcW will use a standard 3.5" drive, just like you'd get in any PC.  I'd guess that's the whole point of them swapping from the 3" drive (which was NOT standard) to the 3.5" drive.   

There are a number of manufacturers, and the drives, and the details, are different, so you need to get at the drive and note which manufacturer, and which type it is.  There should be a label on the actual drive.   It's possible that different PcW 10s might use different models of drive, but as not that many were made, they MIGHT be all the same or similar.

If need be, a repl standard 3.5" drive might cost you £5 or so from your corner computer shop, if salvaged from a traded in PC.  My local shop here certainly has such, at such a price, and they've worked fine.

Yes, there are various problems with fitting a 3.5" drive in place of a 3" drive in normal PCWs, but the PcW 10 was designed to take the 3.5" drive from the start.

Geoff

Offline 19rsn007

  • CPC464
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: nl
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #14 on: 20:19, 26 October 18 »
My pcw's 3,5" drive is the 26 pins with the power lines on that cable, so I do need to build an adapter cable and pull the 5v and 12v from somewhere.

Well......it wil be more satisfying when it is finished and working ;)

Offline GeoffB17

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 531
  • Country: gb
  • PCW since '85
  • Liked: 112
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #15 on: 22:27, 26 October 18 »
Aaargh - that's a surprise.   I'd thought that the whole point of changing to the 3.5" drive (apart from the availability of the 3" drives) was to use a standard component, they must have needed to get them specially made/converted to use the same interface/connections as the 3" disk.

If it IS in fact just the same as the 3" disk, connection-wise, then yes, to use a properly standard 3.5" drive you'll need a similar (but you'd best check up on this) cable conversion.   Oh, most 3.5" drives use 5v power ONLY, no 12v, but again, if this is a 'special drive', it may be non-standard in other regards.

The drive you have should still have some sort of label on it, stating manufacturer, etc.   Prob also a part/model ##.   This would be useful for checking up on the details.

Geoff

Offline 19rsn007

  • CPC464
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: nl
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #16 on: 22:53, 26 October 18 »
Yeah I just saw the +12v isn't needed :)

Have taken the motherboard and diskdrive out of the case and I am gonna hook it up to an lcd for testing (so I don't have to deal with discharging the CRT all the time) and work on the floppydrive.
again, to be continued :)

Offline GeoffB17

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 531
  • Country: gb
  • PCW since '85
  • Liked: 112
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #17 on: 23:06, 26 October 18 »
Hello,

Just been reading the article on the PcW 10 on the Dutch Joyce Fan site.   I think there were other ?? statements there, but I notice now that this 'review' says that the 3.5" drive on this machine will also read the 730k 3" disks.   Is that so?   If this is correct, then it's certainly nothing like a 'standard' 3.5" drive.

Much more worth trying to repair if at all possible.

BUT, it would be even better if it will even JUST read 3" CF2 (single sided) disks.   I'm not sure there are many CF2D disks about these days.   All the 3" 2D drives would read the CF2 disks, although you were advised NOT to write to the disks as the 80t head would cause problems.   The other 'BUT' is that if the 3.5" drive is dual function as referred to, then it could be more complex than a normal drive, and hence more of a risk of problems.   As you've got??

Please keep us advised.

Geoff

Offline 19rsn007

  • CPC464
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: nl
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #18 on: 12:13, 27 October 18 »
I doubt it will read other disks.
The drive is a Roctec RF-332C, which if I recall correct only reads 3,5" DD disks.Anyway, I have opened up the thing to see the drive belt being loose as....you know ;) so I started google-ing this thing and I see multiple hits concerning the drive belt.
Then I saw a video of the drive belt being replaced so I am gonna try to get a new belt and put it in there.

Offline 19rsn007

  • CPC464
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: nl
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #19 on: 21:13, 03 November 18 »
Now this is starting to get a bit annoying.The disk image I got earlier seems weird... 82 tracks and every time I try writing it back to (DD) disk it won't boot.

If I try as much as altering 1 file in the emulator, the file gets corrupted somehow.
CPMTools has a hard time opening the image, let alone extracting the files in there so I can create a propper new image.
Does anyone here have another image which will boot on a PCW-10 containing the CPM file system?

Offline ComSoft6128

  • ..................................
  • Supporter
  • 6128 Plus
  • *
  • Posts: 1.047
  • Country: scotland
  • CPC THEN CPC NOW
    • index.php?action=treasury
  • Liked: 1151
  • Likes Given: 2202

Offline GeoffB17

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 531
  • Country: gb
  • PCW since '85
  • Liked: 112
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #21 on: 21:54, 03 November 18 »
Sorry, but..

82 tracks is actually normal, not unusual.   As I understand things, the disks CAN take 82 tracks, some drives (most) can, but not all.   Software packages may well make use of the 'extra' (or hidden) tracks to play tricks regarding copy protection.   Of course, this is a problem if you just happen to have a drive that will not take the extra tracks.   Within the bounds of normal PCWs, they all use the same drive, so this would not be a problem, but there are so many different manufacturers of 3.5" drives that you may get a drive that will NOT play ball!

When the software to write the image to the disk comes to write the image, if it has trouble with the extra tracks, it may get upset, and end up damaging the disk (as in messing up the format/data) and this MIGHT explain the problems you're having.

What is the image of, as in what software is on the image?

Geoff

Offline GeoffB17

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 531
  • Country: gb
  • PCW since '85
  • Liked: 112
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #22 on: 23:21, 03 November 18 »
If you attach the problem image, I could have a look at it, and get some hint as to what the problem is.   Prob cannot 'fix' anything mind you!

I'd repeat that I think this is to do with copy protection.

I'd guess that if you wrote the image back on a PCW with a 3" B: then the disk may create OK, and this disk would work OK.

Does the image work OK on the emulator.   As in, the prog loads and runs correctly.   If so, this will be because the 'tricks' with the extra two tracks are able to do their sneaky little thing.

Maybe for this you'll need one of the Gotek drives?

Geoff



Offline robcfg

  • Supporter
  • 6128 Plus
  • *
  • Posts: 2.135
  • Country: se
  • 8-Bit Technomancer
    • index.php?action=treasury
  • Liked: 947
  • Likes Given: 2108
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #23 on: 00:32, 04 November 18 »
Now this is starting to get a bit annoying.The disk image I got earlier seems weird... 82 tracks and every time I try writing it back to (DD) disk it won't boot.

If I try as much as altering 1 file in the emulator, the file gets corrupted somehow.
CPMTools has a hard time opening the image, let alone extracting the files in there so I can create a propper new image.
Does anyone here have another image which will boot on a PCW-10 containing the CPM file system?


Did you try Habi's dsk file I sent you?

That one has 80 tracks.
« Last Edit: 00:35, 04 November 18 by robcfg »

Offline 19rsn007

  • CPC464
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: nl
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: PCW10 boot disk
« Reply #24 on: 14:50, 04 November 18 »
Okay then I am gonna try writing it back to floppy another time....I might have done something wrong.
Also wondering if someone managed to get batman and pacmania working on a PCW-10 (3,5" DD disk)