Author Topic: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -  (Read 2601 times)

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Offline Rhino

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BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« on: 21:58, 17 December 18 »
http://www.joycogames.com/retro/comunicados/17_12_2018_en.html

BATMAN GROUP

OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT
12/17/2018

Batman Group (hereinafter BG) in order to report on issues of authorship linked to the relationship that has united us with the development team 4Mhz and especially with its programmer Javier García Navarro (hereinafter JGN), we communicate that:

1) BG has maintained a close relationship with JGN since the foundation of 4Mhz, providing selflessly original Rhino's routines for 4Mhz games.

2) All the routines that BG has contributed to 4Mhz were developed by Rhino by express request and tailored to the needs of JGN, among which are included:
    * Split Screen used in the games Adiós a la Casta 1 and 2, Cuauhtémoc and Profanation 2.
    * Vertical hardware scroll.
    * Horizontal hardware scroll,  including the engine and the complete source code of our Mario demo that is currently used as basis in the development of the next 4Mhz game, Lady Phoenix.

3) BG has not asked JGN for any kind of compensation for these codes, being completely disinterested contributions and trusting fully in the good use and honesty of JGN.

4) As a result of our full trust in JGN, BG had not tracked how our contributions were mentioned on his game credits, authorship files and statements in the media.

5) We recently discovered the following facts:

5.1) In the special videos of CPCRetroDev 2017 and 2018 of the Youtube channel "Juanje Juega" a false information was spread. The authorship of the Rhino's Split Screen routine is attributed to JGN in the following way:

    * Special CPCRetroDev 2017 (1:18:30) – To Fran Gallego's comment "it would be good for students if you tell them how you did the Split Screen", JGN responds as if he had done it, without mentioning at any time that the author is Rhino, attributing it to himself by omission.
    * Special CPCRetroDev 2018 (3:45:30) - To Fran Gallego's comment that Jarlac has a part of JGN in reference to Rhino's Split Screen routine, JGN is again attributed authorship without ever mentioning the real author and also attributing to itself the "good practice" and "generosity" of providing "his" code as the basis for Jarlac's Split Screen.

5.2) In the Profanation 2 authorship file presented by 4Mhz at CPCRetroDev 2017, Rhino's authorship of the Split Screen code used in the game does not appear anywhere. It is also not mentioned in the game credits or in any other 4Mhz game, except Adiós a la Casta 1.

5.3) In Jarlac's authorship file presented by Retrobytes at CPCRetroDev 2018, as a result of JGN's repeated appropriation of our code, Retrobytes attributes to JGN the authorship of the code that served as the basis for Jarlac's Split Screen.

6) After verifying that the Split Screen code used in the 4Mhz games mentioned above is the one originally provided by Rhino, without having any kind of modification or change that could justify the statements that JGN makes by action or omission about his authorship, BG decides to contact JGN to fix the issue.

7) On December 14th there is a first call from Rhino to JGN, where it is proposed and JGN agrees to settle the matter amicably by publishing a announcement with the sole purpose of clarifying that the author of the Split Screen routine used in the 4Mhz games is Rhino and not JGN as had been manifested in the aforementioned media.

8 ) As a consequence of this agreement, 4Mhz publishes a tweet in which it thanks the "help in the Split Screen routine". BG understands that this tweet does not serve the purpose of making Rhino's authorship clear, since helping to do something does not imply the authorship and this would continue to be attributed to JGN and, in any case, the tweet is not true, since Rhino has not helped to do the routine, but is the author of the routine in its totality. Tweet

9) There is a second call from Rhino to JGN to say that the tweet does not comply with what was agreed and both parties agree to make a joint announcement to definitively settle the matter of authorship in the coming days.

10) On 12/16/2018 JGN informs us that 4Mhz is not going to publish any joint announcement as we had agreed, without making any proposal regarding its content.

11) From BG we regret the impossibility of reaching a friendly solution with JGN despite all our efforts, definitely seeing the trust we had placed in him shattered, so we are forced to take the following action:

From today, we break our relationship with 4Mhz and we disauthorize all use of our code in their games, including any part that could be used in their project currently in development, Lady Phoenix.

12) In spite of the enormous sadness and disappointment that these facts produce to us, we are conscious that it is an isolated case and that in the scene prevails the spirit of collaboration and respect to the authorship, reason why our disposition to collaborate with anyone who asks for our help remains intact, as we have always done since BG.
BG

Offline jesusdelmas

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #1 on: 22:07, 17 December 18 »
I Think that 4mhz should say in a clear way that some rutines have been done by Batman Group, other way is not fear. If its not your job and someone else has done it, you have to recognise it otherwise you are a liar.


We live in a planet of ungreateful people. But the worst part is that some months ago, 4mhz was complaining about a similar situation wirh the company "luego luego sytudios"  so it would be really hypocrite if they dont solve is as soon as possible, i hope everything is just a missundestanding
« Last Edit: 22:14, 17 December 18 by jesusdelmas »

Offline GUNHED

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #2 on: 22:50, 17 December 18 »
Hola Rhino,

These things suck completely, I made similar experiences with some dudes before. Best thing is really just not to take it too hard. Even if somebody takes your routines their 'result' will never be as good as something you made by yourself.  ;) :)
Whenever you come to Munich, just check in the FutureSoft headquarters to verify the quality of some sorts of beer.  :)
Well, if you have no time, then please do not allow this situation to stall you in having fun with programming and making prods for the CPC.  ;) :) :)
« Last Edit: 22:53, 17 December 18 by GUNHED »
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Offline spybro

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #3 on: 22:53, 17 December 18 »
I really hope that the two parts will overcome any misunderstanding.
Rhino THANK YOU for all your fabulous work for the cpc community.
JGN / 4mhz if the code belongs to the Batman Group / Rhino than just do the right thing and give the credit he deserves.

Offline Ast

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #4 on: 23:48, 17 December 18 »

Simple Question : Who does really care ?
Is it really important to know that fact ? We could also thanks those people who learned us how to make splitscreen (Longshot first, of course!)


People know now, so stop propaganda !  ;D


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Offline jesusdelmas

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #5 on: 01:36, 18 December 18 »
Simple Question : Who does really care ?
Is it really important to know that fact ? We could also thanks those people who learned us how to make splitscreen (Longshot first, of course!)


People know now, so stop propaganda !  ;D


…...and, we wish you a Merry Christmas...


A lot of people care, if you dont care is your personal opinion, and if you help someone at least you spect a thanks for the help.


Stop dumb answers!! And merry christmast too!!

Offline Ast

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #6 on: 01:47, 18 December 18 »
@jesusdelmas : stay cool man !  :-*
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Offline pelrun

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #7 on: 03:36, 18 December 18 »
It's easy to say "who cares?" when it's not your hard work and generosity that's been abused.


It's such a simple thing to appropriately credit someone whose work you use. But I guess some people are just greedy and selfish (and iirc this is the second time I've heard of bad faith on the part of this developer, so I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt any longer.)


Makes you wonder what other stuff they've appropriated?

Offline keith56

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #8 on: 03:50, 18 December 18 »
Speaking personally, I've used lots of code fragments I've found online as the basis for my game when it came to writing joystick modules, disk routines and the like, and used 'ideas' for artistic and structural design from other games...

in some cases I've given direct credit (like the fact my game uses arkostracker), in others I've just given a vague 'Thanks to CPCWiki' type message... and in others I'm sure I can't even remember how I wrote modules - and if I used code I found online, where I found it.

I think it's fair to say, if someone has used code written by someone else - and the original author requests that their work is acknowledged, then I think that some kind of credit,if not in the program itself, in the readme, or the website would be appropriate.
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Offline mr_lou

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #9 on: 08:13, 18 December 18 »
Attribution is important when the author asks for it. And it's always good form to give attribution even if the author doesn't ask for it. And it's extremely bad form to deliberately take credit for something you didn't do.

There are many different scenarios though. If I found snippets of code here and there online, I don't think I've even notice who made it originally. And then I wouldn't give any attribution. I wouldn't even think about it. If the author later contacted me though, and asked me to, then I would of course - but then he really should have mentioned it in the comments of the code, e.g. by referring to a license type.

But if you're asking a person directly for help for a certain routine - and this person delivers you the whole routine - then of course you gotta put his name in the credits. That's no different from using someone's music or graphics. When/if someone asks you "So how did you create the amazing stunning music?", you of course don't give the impression that it was actually you who composed it.

And what's so bad about that?? I personally think, the more people who has contributed one way or another to your project, the more awesome it is. We should have more community based projects like that in my opinion.

I originally wanted 8-bit Memoirs to become a community project, where themes, music and videos were made by various members. But I never heard back from a whole lot of people I asked, so it didn't end up a community project. I still hope future issues will be community projects though.

Offline Ast

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #10 on: 09:49, 18 December 18 »
It's easy to say "who cares?" when it's not your hard work and generosity that's been abused.


Hey keep calm ! We are speaking about a splitscreen routine, aren’t we ?
So stop bullshit please !
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Offline mr_lou

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #11 on: 10:05, 18 December 18 »
We are speaking about a splitscreen routine, aren’t we ?

It doesn't matter what we're talking about. It's work - done by someone else. And what seems to have happened here, as far as I can see, is that the game developer decided to take credit for it, resulting in other people crediting him in their work - and this despite the original author requested to be credited. That's simple not alright.

It doesn't matter if it's a (small) routine, a single simple sound effect or even a single sprite among many. If the author wants credit, then he must have it.

Offline Ast

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #12 on: 10:23, 18 December 18 »
Arf, you made me laugh !  ;D
What a great work to make a splitscreen routine (2 screens, of course!)!
But, what about keyboard routines ? Who thanks who when uses the same routine ? Ah, it’s not the same thing. Many people use keyboard routines and don’t understand how it works.
Do they have to credit someone too ?

Ps : thanks to Roudoudou for using his ‘ld a,(hl)’ z80 instruction. I’m sorry because i forgot to credit you in my last iMPdraw’s dev.



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Offline keith56

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #13 on: 11:26, 18 December 18 »
But, what about keyboard routines ? Who thanks who when uses the same routine ? Ah, it’s not the same thing. Many people use keyboard routines and don’t understand how it works.
Do they have to credit someone too ?
If code is publicly on the internet on CpcWiki, or some other coding webiste, then I would assume it's OK to use it without giving credit,

but If the original author asks them to give credit, then yes they should... and they shoudn't say 'Here's the keyboard routine I wrote' and take the credit for someone else's work... especially if, as you say, they don't even understand it well enough to write it themselves.
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Offline Poliander

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #14 on: 11:56, 18 December 18 »
The said technique should have been made available to the general public instead of keeping it secret or sharing it underhand. We would all have profited from that and there would have been no way to "steal" anything from anyone. Instead, this forum is once again abused by offended souls to live out their injured ego. Again and again the same...
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Offline Carnivius

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #15 on: 11:58, 18 December 18 »
Sure we wish we could all just get along and make new CPC games the best they can be.  Ain't like the scene of our fave 8-bit is exactly large compared to the big two so it's rough to see notable groups having such conflicts with each other.  :(
Favorite CPC games: SwitchBlade, Stryker in the Crypts of Trogan, Turrican II, UN Squadron, Oh Mummy

Offline Ast

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #16 on: 12:27, 18 December 18 »
The said technique should have been made available to the general public instead of keeping it secret or sharing it underhand. We would all have profited from that and there would have been no way to "steal" anything from anyone. Instead, this forum is once again abused by offended souls to live out their injured ego. Again and again the same...


That ‘s why i made this post : —> http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/discussion-generale/*****programmez-vos-ruptures-facilement/

Of course, no credits needed. It was only made for educational purpose.
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Offline asertus

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #17 on: 13:23, 18 December 18 »
The said technique should have been made available to the general public instead of keeping it secret or sharing it underhand. We would all have profited from that and there would have been no way to "steal" anything from anyone. Instead, this forum is once again abused by offended souls to live out their injured ego. Again and again the same...


Anyway, sources of games in CPCRetrodev are publicly available, but of course, not all sources are well documented.., if any..

Offline roudoudou

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #18 on: 14:19, 18 December 18 »
Ps : thanks to Roudoudou for using his ‘ld a,(hl)’ z80 instruction. I’m sorry because i forgot to credit you in my last iMPdraw’s dev.


please do not add me to your troll  ;D
use RASM, the best assembler ever made :p

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Offline Rhino

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #19 on: 14:34, 18 December 18 »

A lot of people care, if you dont care is your personal opinion, and if you help someone at least you spect a thanks for the help.


Stop dumb answers!! And merry christmast too!!
I have to say that I have received public expressions of gratitude from JGN, but these have been general expressions that have not served to clarify my authorship.
I also understand that the split can be seen as something so small that it is not considered a reason to be included in the credits and I had never asked JGN to mention or thank me publicly anywhere. But when I see that it's not only the credits, but also my authorship is hidden when he is asked expressly about the routine in Juanje's videos, and even where it's obligatory to include it as in the authorship file presented to CPCRetroDev, and as a consequence of all this everyone attributes the authorship of my split to JGN, affecting third projects like Jarlac and that not even trying to fix it amicably with the recognition of a basic author right, it is when I begin to think that perhaps there may be a deliberate intention to hide my authorship and it is the only thing I do not understand and the reason for what happened.
Anyway, for my part, the only thing I ask to fix things is to have my authorship recognized in the specific routines that I have given JGN for his games.


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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #20 on: 14:54, 18 December 18 »
The said technique should have been made available to the general public instead of keeping it secret or sharing it underhand. We would all have profited from that and there would have been no way to "steal" anything from anyone. Instead, this forum is once again abused by offended souls to live out their injured ego. Again and again the same...
Nothing is secret or underhand... I'm really bored to read that. Just ask what you need and support if required, because the CPC developers are really open to share... but do not necessarily have time to devote to the publication and the documentation of code for the general public!
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Offline Rhino

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #21 on: 14:57, 18 December 18 »
Arf, you made me laugh !  ;D
What a great work to make a splitscreen routine (2 screens, of course!)!
But, what about keyboard routines ? Who thanks who when uses the same routine ? Ah, it’s not the same thing. Many people use keyboard routines and don’t understand how it works.
Do they have to credit someone too ?

Ps : thanks to Roudoudou for using his ‘ld a,(hl)’ z80 instruction. I’m sorry because i forgot to credit you in my last iMPdraw’s dev.

I wouldn't have cared if it was just a split, but I also made available to JGN all the code from my Mario demo, which was just an example of the implementation of a full engine that I developed exclusively at the express request of JGN to be used in their games, in fact, although in the thread open here about Mario's demo I say that I will make the source code public for everyone, I was waiting for 4Mhz to use it first in some game.
After what happened with the split code, what can I expect about the horizontal scrolling engine that includes original techniques not implemented before in any game?
So far I've heard 2 interviews with JGN talking about their next game, Lady Phoenix, where, as far as I know, he's using my engine as a base and when asked about the scroll code, again he makes no mention about me, so I expect the worst.

Offline Ast

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #22 on: 17:44, 18 December 18 »
In this case, you’d just have to publish & Share your mario code.
You probably will have more enjoyment & congratulations.
After all, you ´re the only one to know what you have to do.
Cheers !

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Offline reidrac

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #23 on: 20:26, 18 December 18 »
In this case, you’d just have to publish & Share your mario code.
You probably will have more enjoyment & congratulations.
After all, you ´re the only one to know what you have to do.
Cheers !

If the code is freely available under some conditions, and those apply to everyone, that's one thing; it is a bit different if there was a private agreement that hasn't been honored (by mistake or otherwise). Specially when that's technology that is not publicly available and it was used in a contest without providing credit (as per the rules, isn't it?).

All this is a bit sad. Given the size of the CPC gamedev scene and the availability of good examples (CPCTelera and cpcrslib come to mind), I assumed it was all good between everybody.

I don't know if I have all the information here, but I suspect that we're all going to lose if the rock-stars stop sharing code that the average guys like me can use to learn. Please, don't!
« Last Edit: 21:18, 18 December 18 by reidrac »
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Offline Dabz

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Re: BATMAN GROUP - OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT -
« Reply #24 on: 22:25, 18 December 18 »
When I used a game programming language years ago called BlitzBasic, you got a thing called a BUID (Blitz User ID), and this was used for your online account so you could download main setup files, product updates, post on the forums etc etc


Blitz Research Limited produced many products, and you got a BUID with each one (Which you could link in your account for said files, or better still, create a new account with a BUID just in case you got the boot for whatever reasons), these BUID's were transferable, so you could request one of them on your account to be transferred to someone else's account (Anyone could create an account, but without a BUID, you couldnt download the goodies)


Anyway, the original BB demo was a really good demo, it appeared in PC format, was pretty much fully functional apart from you couldn't build .exe files with it, so some really good community websites sprung up around the language, as you can imagine, because for some, the demo was good enough.


After I bought a few products from BRL, my original BB BUID was pretty much obsolete, which was linked to a single account, an account which I posted a load of tutorials or code in the code archives as I was playing and discovering how to do stuff with the language.


One day, someone on a community forum (BlitzCoder) asked if anyone had a free BB BUID going, I thought I dont use mine, so, just as a gesture, I said they can have the account, none of the hassle of emailing the admin and all that, they seemed okay online, never anything malicious, so, handed the details over (There was no payment details ever held on there, you had to buy it through Share-It).


And off it went, got all the thank yous and then just forgot all about it...

One day I got an email from another user with a question saying "Didnt you write that?", with a link to a tutorial on the official site, I looked, and yep, there was a tutorial on a new feature of BlitzBasic called "Userlibs" which I wrote


But there was a few slight edits in the tutorial which made me raise my eyebrows... It was wrote on the account I had passed on, which the person changed his forum nickname, which I was expecting... But if you know my online posts, I always write "Dabz" at the end, terrible habit, but, its stuck with me, so there we are... Anyway, this person not only had changed my old nickname at bottom, he'd also put his bloody full name as the tutorials author at the top!!! I was like "Eh? You cheeky [beep]!!!", and not only that, every single code archive I'd put up, he bloody changed, even down to asking permission to use the code!!!


I pm'd him on one of the unofficial community forums saying that was a bit cheeky and could he return them to normal, which was ignored, in the end, I emailed the admin, and luckily, they knew they were mine, so, they fixed it, and everything was back to normal.


Moral of the story, dont do strangers favours, even if it seems like a nice gesture, you'll get bitch slapped across the front room, into the kitchen, through the back door, across the back yard right out into the street for your troubles, and if you do do a nice thing, just expect to be kicked in the stots anyway.

People are weird, we are all faceless online, just words on a screen, so, people tend to care less because of it.

Just thought I'd share that! :D


Dabz
« Last Edit: 22:40, 18 December 18 by Dabz »