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General Category => News & Events => Topic started by: Gryzor on 20:44, 18 September 11

Title: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Gryzor on 20:44, 18 September 11
(from Oldschool Gaming, minutes ago):
Paul Kooistra, developer of much shooty goodness for the Amstrad CPC, has just finished his version of Edge Grinder. The game, started as a collaborative competition at Oldschool Gaming's sister site Format War, is a caravan-style horizontally scrolling shoot 'em up where the challenge is to rack up the highest score possible.
Here! (http://formatwar.net/view_article.php?art=collabortition_1)
Now, where's that dsk?


(http://formatwar.net/content/articles/screens/collabortition_1/edge_grinder_cpc.png)
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: redbox on 21:10, 18 September 11
OMG.

It's awesome.

Wonder if the R3 scrolling will work with my modulator?



Now, where's that dsk?



Here:
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: norecess on 23:21, 18 September 11
Congratulations to everyone involved in this game. This is actually quite a good surprise to discover it !
Gameplay is really fun and addictive. It's also very hard to beat it !!!!  :D  Can't wait to get myself deeper in this game.

Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: TFM on 01:53, 19 September 11
Beautiful, fluid, great game. But way too hard, and just 3 lives is nothing.
I suggest an autofire joystick, without one, you're done :-)
 
Is there an emualtor, which is capable of autofire? Markus?
 
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: norecess on 01:59, 19 September 11
Quote
But way too hard, and just 3 lives is nothing.


Actually, I found difficulty was well balanced.


Cybernoid, Rick Dangerous... they are good examples of hard but good games.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: ervin on 02:25, 19 September 11
Technically STUNNING, and a great game too!
I guess the difficulty is kinda the point, considering that it is a simple score attack game (from what I can ascertain).
 
Who woulda thought - super smooth full-screen horizontal scrolling on a cpc!
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: TFM on 03:36, 19 September 11
Cybernoid, Rick Dangerous... they are good examples of hard but good games.
Well, Cybernoid was easy for me. And RD was easier than EG, because there is no time pressure. But maybe it's just due to changing times...
 
Who woulda thought - super smooth full-screen horizontal scrolling on a cpc!
It's not full-screen.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: ervin on 07:02, 19 September 11
It's not full-screen.

Indeed. Perhaps I should have said "full-ish" screen, or full-width screen.
(Of course it's not full-height).
 
Having said that, I've just taken a closer look, and the playing area seems to be 156 mode 0 pixels wide, instead of 160. Interesting...
 
Regardless, an amazing technical achievement.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: MacDeath on 08:39, 19 September 11
Quote
It's not full-screen.
Yeah but it looks like it is in almost "normal 320x200" which is far better than so many speccy ports or even spanish games in "256x192"... or even less...

Quote
and the playing area seems to be 156 mode 0 pixels wide, instead of 160. Interesting...
One character to get the scrolling erased properly ?


Anyway, I have too few pictures to compair but it clearly looks more coloured on CPC as usual.

C64 :
(http://formatwar.net/content/articles/screens/collabortition_1/edge_grinder_c64.png)


CPC (yet not the same part)
(http://formatwar.net/content/articles/screens/collabortition_1/edge_grinder_cpc.png)

Sadly the few visual are clearly ported from the C64...
I mean, to get a gradiant going from Dark Red (=brown) to Cyan or Green is clearly C64ish ports.

But I'm OK with this, still look saucy and juicy good.

While some tiles (= most) on C64 has only 3 colours+black, the CPC looks like being in 4 colours + black.

Every thing is +1 colour thx to the No Attribute limitation stuff... sadly the Palette on CPC can't always handle this so well, but hey, the 16 colours max limitation per rasterzone is also a brake.

And to redo graphics while respecting original design is such a paiu in the A$$ wen you port from C64 to CPC...
Still certainly a lot of job to add the Extra ink on every graphics... well done.

And I haven't found the Sprites and Tiles sheet on CPC version... which would be quite interesting.

Just a question : is there any Raster for the HUD ?

Probably as I can count 13 colours for ingame window and 13 colours for the HUD only but total 17 colour on the full screenshot (the CPC screenshot already posted here)...
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: SuTeKH/Epyteor on 09:08, 19 September 11
Stunning game... on both formats! Our graphics are a lot more colourful, though; the C64 sprites seem a little washed-out.
Also, the C64's collision detection is a lot more forgiving than the CPC version, which is why I can hardly get 40,000 on our version but easily get 70,000 on the C64.
 
 
Oooh, and we get a cool loading screen, too!
 
(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g385/tastefulmrship/th_EdgeGrinder.jpg) (http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g385/tastefulmrship/EdgeGrinder.jpg)
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: TomEtJerry on 09:39, 19 September 11
Hello,

Beautiful, fluid, great game. But way too hard, and just 3 lives is nothing.
I suggest an autofire joystick, without one, you're done :-)
 
Is there an emualtor, which is capable of autofire? Markus?

The game is not too hard, you just have to play a little bit with.  I am not an ace with shooters and I manage to
finish it. That's just a question of memory in fact :-).

Hope there will not be like on C64 a ridiculous hack with infinite lives as the game doesn't need it at all...

T&J/GPA
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: MacDeath on 09:43, 19 September 11
Quote
Oooh, and we get a cool loading screen, too!
sorry guy but nope.jpg...

Please : Never put any JPG for pixelart or you only get a mix of a screwed up picture...

pic reposted, I took it from Winape and corrected the colours into theoric CPC colours.


And yeah It rules, good intro page, colourfull, well done, completely CPCish in a good way.


And yeah as always with Paul Kooistra, impecable fluid Shooter with apparently impossible level but just a few time on it and it become a bit of a slight of a little easier (but not that much)



From what I understood, you must be grinding the background's edges to get a properly powerfull weapon powerup or else you must dodge the waves ?
I agrre that a good autofire is quite needed, my joysticks are old and won't handle this, I hate to change microswitchs too... ;D


And now : where is the Speccy version ???
 
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: SuTeKH/Epyteor on 10:08, 19 September 11
Hope there will not be like on C64 a ridiculous hack with infinite lives as the game doesn't need it at all...
The location of the 'lives' (03) and the DEC (HL) are not very well hidden. If I can find them, then everyone in this forum can do the same... just infinitely faster.
However, after a bit of practice, it's not too difficult to finish.
 
sorry guy but nope.jpg...

Please : Never put any JPG for pixelart or you only get a mix of a screwed up picture...

Don't shoot the messenger... that's how it comes out in PHOTOBUCKET.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: HAL 6128 on 10:15, 19 September 11
Hello,

The game is not too hard, you just have to play a little bit with.  I am not an ace with shooters and I manage to
finish it. That's just a question of memory in fact :-).

Hope there will not be like on C64 a ridiculous hack with infinite lives as the game doesn't need it at all...

T&J/GPA

Not to forget... the music is also rather good!
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: MacDeath on 10:21, 19 September 11
Quote
Don't shoot the messenger...
I wouldn't shoot at a guy with a brick...
 ;D

Sorry I wasn't meant to be rude.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: McKlain on 10:30, 19 September 11
The game looks great, my problem is that I'm not able to shoot fast enough to destroy all enemies on a wave  ???
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: SuTeKH/Epyteor on 11:10, 19 September 11
I was testing my 'infinite lives' theory and noticed that you get points for flying through the scenery!
(Just thought someone might be interested in that)
 
 

EDIT: I also have ONE SHOT KILL if anyone else is interested! ^_^
(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g385/tastefulmrship/th_CheatingHero.jpg) (http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g385/tastefulmrship/CheatingHero.jpg)
(... how sad am I?)
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: TotO on 13:04, 19 September 11
Great C64 port. Perfect work.  8)
May be, the choice of colors stay disputable.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Axelay on 13:20, 19 September 11
Thanks to all for the feedback!  :)


Sorry I wasn't able to clarify earlier, but:



Now, where's that dsk?


The disk and tape version is found under the 'object code' link.  The tape version is 128k only just like the disk version.  I have included it only because I want to provide as many options as possible for people to try it out on their real CPCs, and I know there are a few people out there who have no way of transferring disk images to their 6128s.


I would also love to hear from anyone who happens to try it out on the real thing, how it looks (does it work), and what their setup was.  Edge Grinder is using the 'CRTC register 3' method to get the fine scrolling, as was used in a handful of commercial games.  The issues this can create are well known, but I'd really like to know how common screens that produce acceptable results are.  I already have two slightly different acceptable results on my two CTMs, and two different kinds of failure on modulators.



Having said that, I've just taken a closer look, and the playing area seems to be 156 mode 0 pixels wide, instead of 160. Interesting...
 



Using register 3 in this way means the screen moves to the right by half a character width, so you lose a half character on the left.  To maintain a 'centred' screen, I opted to lose an additional half character on the right.  You can try the game in Winape with interrupt highlighting turned on to see it.



And I haven't found the Sprites and Tiles sheet on CPC version... which would be quite interesting.

Just a question : is there any Raster for the HUD ?

Probably as I can count 13 colours for ingame window and 13 colours for the HUD only but total 17 colour on the full screenshot (the CPC screenshot already posted here)...



The graphics aren't stored in a linear manner.  There are some AAS screens in the source download that have the background characters & sprite frames in them.  As to your question, from memory it is 2 or 3 colours changed between the two screens.


The location of the 'lives' (03) and the DEC (HL) are not very well hidden. If I can find them, then everyone in this forum can do the same... just infinitely faster.
 
Hidden?  Well, the source code is available...  ;)


I was testing my 'infinite lives' theory and noticed that you get points for flying through the scenery!
 


Yep, apart from surviving to the end, you can "Grind" your ship against the background for bonus points.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: redbox on 13:48, 19 September 11
Hi Axelay,


Thanks for the great game, am really enjoying playing it.  Can't wait to show my mate who's C64 mad the different versions  :) :) :)


The scrolling works fine on my 6128 Plus with CM14 colour monitor and the screen is nicely centered and the CRTC offset not noticeable unless you really look for it.


Haven't had a chance to try it with my S-Video modulator as I'm at work and it's at home...

Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: TotO on 16:43, 19 September 11
(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g385/tastefulmrship/th_CheatingHero.jpg) (http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g385/tastefulmrship/CheatingHero.jpg)


MEGA NERD ?  ;D
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: SuTeKH/Epyteor on 17:00, 19 September 11

MEGA NERD ?  ;D
Not quite... I hit 100K about an hour ago, I can post that screen up if you want! ^_^
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: TotO on 17:04, 19 September 11
I trust you... It's just what I read first !  :-\
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Devilmarkus on 17:16, 19 September 11
Really nice and fast shooter!
Congrats to the people who made this piece of code & gfx & sound!
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Devilmarkus on 17:32, 19 September 11
I really love the C64 loader! Why don't a few coders do the same for the CPC version?
http://cpc-live.com/edge_grinder_c64_loader (http://cpc-live.com/edge_grinder_c64_loader)

Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (DSK inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: redbox on 17:39, 19 September 11
I really love the C64 loader!


It is nice...



Why don't a few coders do the same for the CPC version?


Probably because it doesn't take 20 years to load a game from a CPC disc...  8)
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Devilmarkus on 17:45, 19 September 11
Well it also loaded quite fast enough on the C64 ;)
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: SyX on 18:17, 19 September 11
I love the shoot'em'ups and this game feel even better than Star Sabre, Great Work Axelay!!!  :D :D :D
 
I would also love to hear from anyone who happens to try it out on the real thing, how it looks (does it work), and what their setup was.  Edge Grinder is using the 'CRTC register 3' method to get the fine scrolling, as was used in a handful of commercial games.  The issues this can create are well known, but I'd really like to know how common screens that produce acceptable results are.  I already have two slightly different acceptable results on my two CTMs, and two different kinds of failure on modulators.
I have been able to test with more calm in my two 6128 (CRTC 2 and 4) attached to a CRT TV by scart and the scroll WOW, the scroll is super smooth :D and the scoreboard stays fixed... i remember that the first examples of this technique that you put a few time ago, had a little shake in the scoreboard, but the scoreboard in Edge Grinder is rock solid  ;)

Axelay could you make a postmortem in the line of Gamasutra (what went right and wrong, technical difficulties, ...) for all the people interested in the technical side :)

I don't want to forget the wonderful work of the Tom & Jerry, Smila and STE. Great Work people!!! :D

Sorry for the bad photographer, me  :P
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: TMR on 18:59, 19 September 11
Probably because it doesn't take 20 years to load a game from a CPC disc...  8)
 

 That video was a stock C64 and 1541 loading the music, picture and then game in under one minute... that's a bit less than twenty years. =-)
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Ygdrazil on 19:30, 19 September 11

 That video was a stock C64 and 1541 loading the music, picture and then game in under one minute... that's a bit less than twenty years. =-)

Well, but it took 20+ years for the CPC to foster a decent smooth scrolling horizontal shooter  :)

Just kidding, congratulations for a great job done with Edge Grinder!!!

/Ygdrazil
 
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Xifos on 20:23, 19 September 11
Well...
That's really impressive, an horizontal shooter with such frame rate, with music, on cpc (and too hard for me).
 :)

I know i must not think only of technical side of games, but i have just a little question for Axelay.
The scroll is one pixel mode 0 at 25 hz, right ?
Sprites are faster than the scroll, do they move at byte steps ?
(i know i should read the source code  ;D )
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Gryzor on 22:20, 19 September 11
That's a good idea, a postmortem on its development. It would be a really interesting read...
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: fgbrain on 00:15, 20 September 11
Really enjoyable and impressive game. Too bad we didnt have enough of these kind back in the 80s.

My only complaints:
Lack of sound effects and secondly, it is terribly hard for me at least..

Well done Axelay !!
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: TMR on 00:23, 20 September 11
Just kidding, congratulations for a great job done with Edge Grinder!!!

Thanks very much on behalf of everyone involved and it's good to know that the game i helped design is well received over here. =-)

i'd like to think this "collabortition" is working out really well (in the present tense because there are still versions in various stages of development for other machines) so now someone needs to step forward to start the next one...
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: TFM on 00:24, 20 September 11
Hello,

The game is not too hard, you just have to play a little bit with.  I am not an ace with shooters and I manage to
finish it. That's just a question of memory in fact :-).

Hope there will not be like on C64 a ridiculous hack with infinite lives as the game doesn't need it at all...

T&J/GPA
Ok, YOU can do that! I can't. And there are some scenes, when you have too much enemies and you are forced to loose a life. And three lives are used up very, very, quick. Sorry, I got no joystick here. And this doesn't make it more easy. But if somebody need me as a beta tester for a stupid player, give me a call!  8)
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: MacDeath on 13:13, 20 September 11
So, who is gonna put an online Video review of the game, featuring longplay sort of a and so on, in high quality cinemascope ?

Please with edited sound so the music is enjoyable...
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Axelay on 13:29, 20 September 11

Axelay could you make a postmortem in the line of Gamasutra (what went right and wrong, technical difficulties, ...) for all the people interested in the technical side :)


Hmm, I'll consider it, but having just spent the last month commenting the source I'd really like to get back to the coding on some other projects.  I'm also not much of a story teller, that's partly why I stick with coding shooters!  ;D


The scroll is one pixel mode 0 at 25 hz, right ?
Sprites are faster than the scroll, do they move at byte steps ?
(i know i should read the source code  ;D )




Yes on all counts.  ;)
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Axelay on 13:38, 20 September 11
So, who is gonna put an online Video review of the game, featuring longplay sort of a and so on, in high quality cinemascope ?

Please with edited sound so the music is enjoyable...


I think Metr will be uploading a video soon.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: SyX on 14:11, 20 September 11
Hmm, I'll consider it, but having just spent the last month commenting the source I'd really like to get back to the coding on some other projects.  I'm also not much of a story teller, that's partly why I stick with coding shooters!  ;D
Je je je, in that case ...More Shooters Axelay!!! XDDD

... although i was thinking more in the line of a few sentences telling the "magic" behind your wonderful work, not a big article because if i need more info, i always can take a look at the sources, and thanks for your  kindness at making them available.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Metr on 17:21, 20 September 11

I think Metr will be uploading a video soon.


Here it is !


Edge Grinder Amstrad cpc HD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcZ7-E7Mx-Y#ws)
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Gryzor on 17:22, 20 September 11
Whoa. Didn't have the time to play it yet, but it looks awesome... The tune really sounds like an ST - those drums are the same as in Wings of Death! :D
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Executioner on 04:21, 21 September 11
Wow, that scroll looks great, even in the video (playing on a 60Hz laptop screen). I'll have to get my real CPC out so I can see it on the real thing. Great work again, Paul.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Axelay on 16:55, 21 September 11
I forgot to add last time, thanks Syx & Redbox for checking it out on your real CPCs!



Je je je, in that case ...More Shooters Axelay!!! XDDD

... although i was thinking more in the line of a few sentences telling the "magic" behind your wonderful work, not a big article because if i need more info, i always can take a look at the sources, and thanks for your  kindness at making them available.


In that case, I guess I can try to put together a couple of paragraphs in the next few days and post them here.  Probably just on the sprite code & tile writer, which are the more "unique" parts of the project compared to my previous games, as well as the most CPU consuming.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: SyX on 17:16, 21 September 11
Thanks Axelay :)
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: mr_lou on 18:00, 21 September 11
The video looks great.
Sadly, the scroll isn't like that at all on my CPC464, nor with Arnold emulator. So I can't enjoy the game.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Gryzor on 18:23, 21 September 11
I forgot to add last time, thanks Syx & Redbox for checking it out on your real CPCs!

Played it myself on my 6128 this morning, soooo nice! The only gripe I have is that fire is not fast enough. Can't explain it well enough, but it feels like it misses some of the SPACE presses...
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: ukmarkh on 13:50, 22 September 11
This new game is really good, and very smooth. There are enough examples out there now that prove the CPC really can do smooth side scrolling in games.
 
I'd like Paul to come up with something different for his next game, a Super Star dust clone for the CPC would be nice or a Space Invaders Xtreme style game. It'd be nice to see some of those ideas converted to the iPhone played out on a CPC... Angry Birds anyone? 
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Axelay on 16:07, 22 September 11
The video looks great.
Sadly, the scroll isn't like that at all on my CPC464, nor with Arnold emulator. So I can't enjoy the game.


Thanks for trying it out, sorry to hear the result wasn't good.  Could you give some more detail?  What are you seeing?  Are you using an Amstrad monitor or something else?  Have you ever played other R3 scrolling games on your 464 (Killer Cobra, Ghosts'n'Goblins, Prehistorik 2, Out of this World)


I dont think the last version of Arnold I tried supported R3 scrolling either.


Played it myself on my 6128 this morning, soooo nice! The only gripe I have is that fire is not fast enough. Can't explain it well enough, but it feels like it misses some of the SPACE presses...



Thanks for trying it.  With the firing, when you feel it's missing the space press, is it the case that you are a fair way back from what you are shooting at and there's already a shot on screen?  The game is based on the 8 C64 sprite limit with no multiplexing, so there's only one player shot at a time, and as fast as the bullet moves, it's still pretty easy to fire faster than you can shoot if you are some way back from the enemies.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: mr_lou on 16:44, 22 September 11
Thanks for trying it out, sorry to hear the result wasn't good.  Could you give some more detail?  What are you seeing?  Are you using an Amstrad monitor or something else?  Have you ever played other R3 scrolling games on your 464 (Killer Cobra, Ghosts'n'Goblins, Prehistorik 2, Out of this World)

It's moving rather chunky. Probably easiest to just show a video.
http://dewfall.dk/MOV_0023.mp4 (http://dewfall.dk/MOV_0023.mp4)

Yes, I've tried Killer Cobra which moves smoothly (but insanely fast).
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Gryzor on 17:18, 22 September 11
@mr_lou: ouch, this is not smooth indeed...

@Axelay: yeah, that's the issue, silly of me not to notice it myself.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Devilmarkus on 17:25, 22 September 11
It's moving rather chunky. Probably easiest to just show a video.
http://dewfall.dk/MOV_0023.mp4 (http://dewfall.dk/MOV_0023.mp4)

Are you using an original CTM monitor?
It looks weird, also the HUD @ bottom is shaking!!!
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (not really) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: mr_lou on 17:34, 22 September 11
Are you using an original CTM monitor?
It looks weird, also the HUD @ bottom is shaking!!!

No, using a Samsung LCD at the moment.
Just checked out Killer Cobra, and it's not running smoothly either, although not chunky. Just not smooth. So that's probably it.
With my limited knowledge, I didn't realize it came down to the monitor.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Bryce on 17:45, 22 September 11
It all depends on how you have connected it to the monitor. If he is constantly changing the Sync (CRTC R3), then only a real monitor will give you the correct result on a real CPC. Modulators such as the S-Video Modulator won't be able to display this properly. An MP1/2 might however.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: mr_lou on 17:55, 22 September 11
I have been using a Phillips CRT TV for quite some time, until recently where I switched to a Samsung LCD TV. As far as I remember, the Phillips TV always gave smooth movement e.g. in Killer Cobra.
It's not smooth on this Samsung LCD.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Bryce on 18:01, 22 September 11
If you are connected with RGB through the SCART, then this is to be expected. The "analogue" SCART in older CRT TV's will swap frequencies back and forth all you like, but modern LCD TV's sample the incoming frequency at a set frequency and don't adjust according to the source signal.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: mr_lou on 18:03, 22 September 11
Ok, so that must be why.
I hope to return to my Phillips CRT TV some day. But currently I have to use this LCD in order to save space.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: TFM on 03:03, 23 September 11
So do we have a poked version of Edge Grinder now? Or do I have to do it by myself (and I have so few spare time). Eternal life would be enough ;-)
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Gryzor on 08:56, 23 September 11
Played it some more last night. Really frenetic... and addictive!! Really, well done!
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: SuTeKH/Epyteor on 09:15, 23 September 11
So do we have a poked version of Edge Grinder now? Or do I have to do it by myself (and I have so few spare time). Eternal life would be enough ;-)
Two loader programs before I got bored...
 
ONE SHOT KILL
INFINITE LIVES
 
Copy to your .dsk and run it.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Gryzor on 09:44, 23 September 11
Two loader programs before I got bored...
 
ONE SHOT KILL
INFINITE LIVES
 
Copy to your .dsk and run it.

Tsk, tsk, you guys...

(grabs files and runs)

Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: SuTeKH/Epyteor on 10:59, 23 September 11
Tsk, tsk, you guys...

(grabs files and runs)
I was going to do a whole load of stuff, but I got bored with cheating as the game is perfectly possible to complete without them (with a little practice).
If T&J hadn't mentioned the C64 cheats, I'd have never even looked into it for our version! (Though don't blame him, it's all my fault!)
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Metr on 11:14, 23 September 11
Eternal life would be enough ;-)


Tons of people wasting time looking for the Holy Grail in the past, and they only had to look for the Sacred Poke..  ;)
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: TFM on 19:17, 23 September 11
Two loader programs before I got bored...
 
ONE SHOT KILL
INFINITE LIVES
 
Copy to your .dsk and run it.

Appreciate! I owe your one! You will be the first person who get's the nude patch for my Giana Sisters Clone, if there ever will be one ;-)
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Axelay on 17:56, 24 September 11
As requested, I've tried to write a bit of an explanation to the code for two of the main sets of routines in Edge Grinder, plus add some 'references' and things that didn't turn out quite as well as I'd have liked. No idea if it's going to be remotely interesting, but those who would rather gnaw off their own legs than read about coding might wish to stop now.  ;)


For the tile writing, I wanted to use the C64 tile and level data without modification as much as possible.  That meant approaching things a little differently to how I had handled backgrounds before, as I have previously used less versatile but faster "blocks" rather than "characters" and tiles.


The scrolling relies on two screens byte scrolled every other frame, at a 1 pixel offset from each other, so I needed to write two pixels, a byte column, to the right of the screen each frame.  As a side note, the mechanics of handling the Register 3 scrolling under interrupt are heavily based on Executioner's 2007 source example.  This meant after modifying it to suit 25fps and a different screen layout, I already had screen addresses being generated for the clear and write columns, the column clearing being handled under interrupt to utilise some unused CPU time, and I just needed to handle the column writing, essentially.


The play area is 20 characters high, so at 8 bytes high per character a buffer 160 bytes long is used.  Each frame, the bytes in the buffer have the right hand pixel shifted to the left hand position, and the new right pixel is masked in.  For the character data itself there were 256 characters, amounting to 4kb at 16 bytes each.  As there are also 256 bytes to a full page of memory, I thought it would be beneficial to try and store the character data such that the low byte was the "character id", and the high byte was the "byte pointer" within each character.  That way I could avoid any kind of multiplication to get a 16bit pointer to the character.  For example, with the character data starting at &6000, grabbing tile 1 would initially point to &6001, and the next byte would be at &6101, then &6201 and so on, meaning no multiplication and still an 8 bit inc to get the next byte.  I then used the same approach for the tile data, as there were over 200 of those and they were also 16 bytes each.


The character data is also not sequential top to bottom, but stored in a sequence that makes each pixel line a single set or reset after the next, the same way I described here (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?topic=1711.msg16896#msg16896).  I initially toyed with the idea of storing character data at a pixel per byte so no shifting or masking would be required for the data being read, but this would make the character data take 8kb in total, and only save about 10 scan lines of CPU, so I did not implement this.  With storing two pixels to a byte, there was the small issue whereby one frame would require the right pixel of the source byte, and another frame would require the left pixel and an initial shift right, meaning one frame would be a little slower (160 nops) if left as it was.  I remembered someone mentioning that Gryzor used alternately flipped bytes for it's sprites, so the left and right facing frames were stored as one with half the pixel pairs being flipped, and either facing taking the same CPU time to print. I used this same idea to 'even out' the CPU load of the tile writer.  In all, the tile writer takes around 70 scan lines to fill the buffer and then copy it to the screen.


The sprites were a more complicated prospect than the tile writer of course, and take the vast majority of the CPU time (almost 75%) with not only printing, but save and restore of background for all sprites required.  And this all needs to occur on a screen being horizontally scrolled in hardware, so with the length of the level I faced the dreaded screen address reset problem!  Something I avoided in Star Sabre by putting breaks in the background and resetting the screen base address before sprites crossing the reset point would be a problem.


In my last couple of projects, I have been using screen address list lookup tables that only store every other address (so sprite y does not need to be doubled and the lookup table fits on a single page of memory), and then using a sprite print routine that does two lines at once.  This seemed like it would be helpful in approaching the address reset, as it looked like it would be a lot easier handling address reset only when incrementing the screen  address pointer when the pixel line was 1,3,5 & 7 so the "overflow" was always bit 3 of the high byte becoming set.  ie, going from &c7ff to &c800, or &d7ff to &d800 have a much simpler fix than going from &cfff to &d000 or &dfff to &e000.  Of course, one inconvenience to handling sprites in line pairs was that the C64 sprites are 21 lines high but that really just meant extra code to handle the last line.


Also like my previous projects, the sprite printing is partially 'unrolled' (repeating some code X times rather than putting one instance of the code in loop that repeats X times, trading memory for a bit more speed) In Edge Grinder two pixel rows of sprite printing, 12 bytes, are handled inside a loop that repeats only 10 times.  There are also separate printing routines to handle all possible cases of sprites being partially on screen at the left and right edges.


My first approach had been to have two sprite print routines for fully visible sprites.  One 'fast print', which would start at the bottom left of the pixel line pair, then move up, then right, then down then right and so on, as in a square wave with the minimum of changes to the screen pointer.  Then there would be a routine for determining whether sprites were crossing the reset point, where I would use a 'safe print' routine (the screen edge routines would always be handled this 'safe' way).  This followed the same path, but it detoured through the top line of the pixel pair so that a single set or reset would ensure it was pointing where it was supposed to be afterwards.  I tried an alternative way where spare registers were used to 'save' the high byte of the pointer for the second pixel line's increment, but after all the masking required it was no faster.


However, by ordering the bytes differently, I found I could have a faster 'safe' version that started from the bottom left, moved to the byte above, then moved to the byte below and right to that one and continued in a kind of saw tooth path.  The speed difference between this and the original fast routine was sufficiently small after allowing for up to 2 of the slower 'safe prints', that I thought it would be preferable to use this second approach from the perspective of keeping the code simpler, and at a reasonably small cost in scan lines.


Saying that, I still maintained a screen address reset point as I found the speed improvement for using 'fast' and 'safe' versions of the background save & restore were quite a bit more significant (around 30 scan lines) because the fast versions could simply use ldi lists.


Something else I implemented and then took out was checking for background for all the sprites and then doing a save & restore only if background was covered by the sprite, or else a simple clear of the sprite otherwise.  This 'saved' around 120 scan lines when no sprites crossed background, but then I realised that when the player collided with background and all the other sprites were commandeered for the explosion, all sprites would be over background and so if I used any of this 'saved' CPU time at all there would be guaranteed slow down when the player died in a background collision!  An idea for another time perhaps.


The final change I made to the sprites was to convert the player and player bullet sprites to compiled sprites, as well as make a special routine for the player bullet that was a smaller sprite and only saving background that could be covered - the centre of the sprite collides with background so will never obscure it.  This saved an additional 25-30 scan lines all up, and basically meant the difference between being able to have the 50hz music it has instead of 25hz music.


Now having gone a tad over a 'couple of paragraphs', I shall end it there!  However, if anyone reading the source code has questions about it, please feel free to ask or PM me here or at Format War.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: SyX on 18:33, 24 September 11
Thank you very much Axelay, you are the best!!! :D :D :D
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: khisanth on 21:40, 02 October 11
Fantastic game! looks gorgeous and has a great sound track! Such smooth scrolling too  :)

Only thing I don't like is the multiple shots required for all enemies. makes certain situations impossible to avoid losing a life.

Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: TMR on 23:51, 02 October 11
Only thing I don't like is the multiple shots required for all enemies. makes certain situations impossible to avoid losing a life.

There should be nowhere in Edge Grinder where it's impossible to get through without dying...
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: ervin on 14:34, 03 October 11
Fantastic post Axelay! Thanks very much for all that info.
I reckon I can learn a lot from all of that... once I've had time to study and understand it!
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: khisanth on 18:49, 03 October 11
There should be nowhere in Edge Grinder where it's impossible to get through without dying...

 ;D
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: TMR on 21:46, 04 October 11
;D

Sorry, i should probably explain a bit better... i'm not telling people off and saying there shouldn't be places which are guaranteed to kill the player, i'm saying there aren't any places like that in Edge Grinder. i do have a certain degree of weight to put behind that statement since t'was me who originally designed the attack waves and selected the number of hits needed to kill each enemy.

The game is designed to be tough but possible to complete for a reasonable player because the primary challenge is racking up as high a score as possible rather than just surviving and, although i'm a little rusty right now (i'm told it may be osteoarthritis but really must get a second opinion) i've just finished the CPC version with no lives lost, a final score of 109,705 and no autofire.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: TFM on 22:39, 04 October 11
I mean - honestly - in this game it all depends on autofire and joystick quality. I don't say that's a bad thing, just a fact ;-)
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: khisanth on 22:51, 04 October 11
Okay fair enough, i guess I am so used to EVERY enemy in every shoot em up being one shot kills!  but it's something different

i will return with vigour and see how far i get
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: TMR on 23:31, 04 October 11
I mean - honestly - in this game it all depends on autofire and joystick quality. I don't say that's a bad thing, just a fact ;-)

If that were true i wouldn't be completing it with a battered and slightly dodgy official Playstation DualShock pad[1] that doesn't have an autofire... in fact, if that were true it wouldn't be possible to play to just past the fourth group of those green spinners that come through the middle of the play area like their bums are on fire to here...

(http://cosine.org.uk/temp/eg_cpc_no_firing.png)

...without having fired a single shot!

[1] i have to play in an emulator, i've only got a CPC464 at the moment...
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: khisanth on 00:39, 05 October 11
no wonder you completed it , you designed part of it!
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: TMR on 10:41, 05 October 11
no wonder you completed it , you designed part of it!

That doesn't really make a difference in this situation (in part because i didn't design the background layouts) because other players have been and indeed are clearing Edge Grinder on a single life as well; they're doing so by putting time into learning the patterns and knowing when to stand or hide. Those not as well versed with shoot 'em ups might prefer to use autofire but most of the beta testers for the C64 version (most of who aren't hardcore shoot 'em up fans) felt that to be "cheating" and didn't.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Metr on 11:16, 05 October 11
The game is not so long and just by getting used to the patterns/anticipating (get close to the enemies so you can fire faster and maybe falling back while shooting) should be enough to complete it. There are a couple spots where you should be quick and get a good position (like that final tunnel with 7-8 enemies) but I'm more used to platform games and with a little practice it can be done.
Anyways playing it with the keyboard makes it easier for me at least! I would avoid joysticks or pads!
Good luck!
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Gryzor on 14:09, 09 October 11
Yes, it is quite hard but not impossible. I do wish we had more shots on screen, but it's bloody good. A good challenge.
Title: Re: Edge Grinder released (really - DKS inside) - NEW GAME! WHAAAAAA!
Post by: Carnivius on 11:40, 04 June 12
Just wanted to say great conversion of this game.   The C64 one is alright but once again it's bland palette and colour limitations make it somewhat unappealing to me.  The CPC version on the other hand has some quite lovely and interesting colour schemes going on there.   Really nice work.