Author Topic: Brexit. UK Politics.  (Read 15444 times)

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Offline Munchausen

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Brexit. UK Politics.
« on: 21:46, 23 February 16 »
They're wielding their standard scarecrow of "We'll leave the EU, unless: postages go down, or Euro against the pound, or any other pet peeve du jour (and then have to beg France on our knees to allow us back in)"  ::) , again, simple as that.
So, French's gotta wait (so does German) on this forum too until they've held their referendum (and stay, if ve & vous want them to). ;D

While I can see where the logic is here, this is harsh on the many, many British people who do not want to leave the EU. You are tarring us all with the same brush when many of us share your opinions, and are just as horrified by the current government and general political atmosphere here as our friends in Europe are. At least until the referendum, you aren't speaking about a majority of UK citizens, and I hope not even then. WRT some of your other comments, you also forget that many of the people of voting age in the UK now were not even born when the UK entered the EU.

What is going on is the same as in any country when there are harsh economic difficulties. Some ignorant members of society will always blame all the problems on someone else, often bringing nationality into it as the popular flag of stupidity. After that, hard left or right politics rise in popularity because they claim they can offer a solution that somehow justifies ignorant people's belief that all their problems are caused by someone else. In this case the long toted, legendary "fact" known for 40 years by all "blokes down the pub" is "we should never have joined the EU", and it's a really easy target for politicians and tabloid newspapers to use that simultaneously finds someone to blame and provides a "solution" - leaving the EU.

I can't believe that so much time and effort is being wasted even considering leaving. It scares me, because (1) it will be very bad for the economy, (2) I actually believe in a unified Europe, and (3) I loathe nationalism. I also can't believe that the catastrophic impact on the economy has not been presented to us (it isn't complicated, who do people think we do most of our trading with?) Or the fact that, even if it was a bad idea to join the EU, it is a worse one to leave now.

I just hope that many of those who voted for our current government are regretting their decision now that they see the underhand tactics at play, where they wish to silence all opposition while making changes to and destroying things that we desperately need (like the national health service).

Anyway, I must concede that if the UK leaves, which is very possible, it will probably end up wanting to join again in 5 or 10 years time. I hope that it will be welcomed back when we get rid of the current idiots in charge (and I really hope we can do that).

Offline Fessor

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #1 on: 22:44, 23 February 16 »
Two things i have learned about discussions in Forums: Don't talk about Politics and don't talk about Religion.

Offline seanb

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #2 on: 00:11, 24 February 16 »
I don't want to leave and most people I know that do want to do simply because Cameron wants us to stay  :D

Besides most of the talk on here is from people that don't live in the uk and therfore don't know what they are talking about.

Sorry to be blunt but unless you are British or at least living here now you're only repeating what your media tells you and don't understand where we are coming from.


This thread could implode  :o
Let's get popcorn but not salted. How anyone can eat that crap is beyond me.
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Offline SRS

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #3 on: 00:34, 24 February 16 »
Uh, what happened? A three/two post thread ?

About Brexit: if the majority (and not the majority of people that go for voting) of britains want to leave, so they shall do.
Free people they are !

I am Pro-European since I grew up, if only to keep us europeans from another war against each other ... but EU and Europe are very different things.

Let's stay a band of cpc-brothers, whatever the politicians want us to be

Offline endangermice

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #4 on: 00:40, 24 February 16 »
For what it's worth I definitely do not want to leave. I love you guys and the UK is far better off in Europe than it would ever be out. Leaving Europe is a step backwards, and a step that would allow our insane government to destroy the country unhindered!
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Offline ||C|-|E||

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #5 on: 00:56, 24 February 16 »
I am not much into politics (if at all) and being Spanish, although living in London, I do not feel that I have any right to tell the people from UK what to do  :) . However, if UK was leaving that would probably put me, my gf and many other "adopted" biological researchers in a struggle. Even my boss is German! Well, let´s see what happens  :)

Offline seanb

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #6 on: 01:03, 24 February 16 »
We won't leave ||C|-|E|| (did I do that right?) so wouldn't worry about it.
Its all hot air from what we call the daily mail demographic
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Offline MacDeath

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #7 on: 01:16, 24 February 16 »
Basically it is easy to get advantages from European union system : just threat that you may ask population something via referendum.

There is nothing that european union/innstitutions fear most than direct popular consultation.

Not that it would mater anyway, but at least it cracks the paint and just show a bit more that "Democracy" is not what we have.
Yet we love to critisize China, Russia or anything against the World order/USA/Banks/whatever... and tell them how not democracy they are.
Still good to go lick some Saoudian balls and rape our people's convictions because petrodollars can be more sacred.


I wish my presumedly leftist president had balls and would make such ultimatums as organizing referendums. But the guy is such a tool.

Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #8 on: 01:28, 24 February 16 »
I love Europe, I hate the EU, everyone should!!!

Offline MacDeath

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #9 on: 01:40, 24 February 16 »
"they" try hard to get some semantic shift so "Europe" and "EU" become the same... but really...

Offline EgoTrip

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #10 on: 01:51, 24 February 16 »
In or out, the rich will benefit and the poor will pay. Just how it always works out with the parasites in control of this planet.

I don't think that Britain will leave. Just as with the Scotland referendum where it was in the best interests of the powers that be for it to remain a part of the UK, so the UK will remain a part of Europe. The result will be rigged. Because as with Scotland leaving the UK would have set a precedent and potentially triggered a domino effect of nations splitting up, the same will likely happen with the EU. And the unelected bureaucrats will lose their cash cow without an EU to dictate.

EVERYTHING in this world revolves around money. Its sad and depressing.
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Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #11 on: 01:57, 24 February 16 »
In or out, the rich will benefit and the poor will pay. Just how it always works out with the parasites in control of this planet.

I don't think that Britain will leave. Just as with the Scotland referendum where it was in the best interests of the powers that be for it to remain a part of the UK, so the UK will remain a part of Europe. The result will be rigged. Because as with Scotland leaving the UK would have set a precedent and potentially triggered a domino effect of nations splitting up, the same will likely happen with the EU. And the unelected bureaucrats will lose their cash cow without an EU to dictate.

EVERYTHING in this world revolves around money. Its sad and depressing.


Exactly, most of my family are from Italy, Germany, Ireland and Spain... In the end, we're the same, all screwed!

Offline OCT

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #12 on: 02:00, 24 February 16 »
While I can see where the logic is here, this is harsh on the many, many British people who do not want to leave the EU. You are tarring us all with the same brush
No offence intended, the (reasoned) bluntness was in reply to IMHO misplaced eurosceptic allusions (and trying to keep that thread from veering off-topic while conceding that the EU deserves criticism for so much else):
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Quote
many of the people of voting age in the UK now were not even born when the UK entered the EU
Yes, but then shouldn't the UK parliament have considered before accession (when "ever closer" was already "acquis") whether it wanted to (and constitutionally even could) perpetually bind its (successors') hands, or put it up for yet another vote once every generation? The latter being dangerous as well because it puts international obligations at populist mercy:
Quote
the long toted, legendary "fact" known for 40 years by all "blokes down the pub" is "we should never have joined the EU", and it's a really easy target for politicians and tabloid newspapers to use that simultaneously finds someone to blame and provides a "solution" - leaving the EU.

Quote
it isn't complicated, who do people think we do most of our trading with?) Or the fact that, even if it was a bad idea to join the EU, it is a worse one to leave now.
Actually some of your trading partners joined the EU mainly because the UK did.
Quote
Anyway, I must concede that if the UK leaves, which is very possible, it will probably end up wanting to join again in 5 or 10 years time. I hope that it will be welcomed back
...which wasn't that easy last time around (and there's nothing "hateful" :o about mentioning historical fact, nor does one have to be a druggie ??? to disagree with the "blokes down the pub").

Offline 1024MAK

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #13 on: 03:20, 24 February 16 »
IMHO, I think the UK should stay in the EU. And that is the way that I intend to vote. I believe the benefits far outweigh the small number of so called disadvantages and problems.

Right wing conservatives are the group that want the UK to exit. They were never in favour of joining in the first place. They spout rubbish about immigration and ignore the facts that the UK has always had people from other countries moving here (long before WW2).

In any event, a lot of UK employers actually want young people from abroad to come here and work.

Mark

Looking forward to summer in Somerset :-)

Online reidrac

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #14 on: 08:59, 24 February 16 »
MY point of view as Spaniard living in UK is that there's a lot of misinformation and yes... some people are misinformed and this is going to be a scaremongering campaign on both sides, which I think it is a shame. Politics I think is called the game.

Will my situation change in the event the UK leaves the EU? I don't think so, given the amount of British people living in Spain, but you never know...

As far as I'm concerned I'm too busy paying taxes and helping the economy with my hard work to waste my time in politics when I don't have a say ;)
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Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #15 on: 12:34, 24 February 16 »
The point is, the U.K. Would still trade and continue to work with other countries, but not through or as part of the EU, the same way the rest of the world deals with other countries including the US. People who already work and live here won't be affected, but we would no longer be subjected to EU law, or their immigration policies. I don't trust the UK government, left to their own devices, they could prove dangerous for the UK and Europe, the best thing for everyone is to stay in, and together change Europe for the better, become a super power of countries, the envy of the world. But we won't ever get their if other European states continue to hate the Brits and look down their noses at us. That will just push us away, and is currently all we see in the media.


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Offline Bryce

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #16 on: 13:32, 24 February 16 »
I'm not going to get into the politics of it all (I don't discuss politics or religion), but I'd like to know where you get this "European states hate the Brits" idea? Is this something that the British press propagate? It definitely doesn't exist in reality. The only time anything negative is ever said about the Brits is when the football hooligans arrive, but the same negativity is expressed about hooligans from any country.

Regarding trade, yes, trade would of course continue, but the EU trade agreements would no longer stand, so the cost of anything coming from outside the UK would most likely go up. The UK would need to renegotiate every trade agreement that the EU had and the chances of the UK getting as good a deal is very low.

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Offline Trebmint

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #17 on: 13:59, 24 February 16 »
As a Brit I thought I'd just have a say... personally I just want to go and hide away from the news until this all goes away. In or out I don't really care, as its a debatable point if it matters whether its a UK government or the EU government who is making our lives worse. Yeah okay I can name a lot of the UK government that only 25% of people voted for, and I can't name any of the EU ones.


Intrinsically I'm all for open borders, free trade, but I don't see why it has to go any further. Why are we giving money to the EU and then arguing over what they give back???? Most EU countries have nothing in common. What does Italy have in common with Germany, or France Greece? Nothing. So the Euro currency without political integration is madness.


The bottom line is, and why most Brits feel aggrieved is that people from poorer countries are coming and claiming benefits. Isn't it just easy to say "Hey come, but you still get the benefits you'd get in your country of birth!". Plus also its tricky, as wanting out of Europe seems grubby and hateful, but it will always come down to what's in it for me.


How will I vote - I'm going to vote Out. And the main reason is the UK will have to sign up for bank bail-ins and TTP if we stay in. Democracy is a fake and empty concept but bail-ins (especially with the rush to a cashless society) and TTP where we hand control over to the corporations. Its already started here where a small yorkshire village that refused to allow a Starbucks to open on the high street, and with TTP that would be illegal. The world isn't all about money, its about living a life as best you can.

Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #18 on: 14:11, 24 February 16 »
I'm not going to get into the politics of it all (I don't discuss politics or religion), but I'd like to know where you get this "European states hate the Brits" idea? Is this something that the British press propagate? It definitely doesn't exist in reality. The only time anything negative is ever said about the Brits is when the football hooligans arrive, but the same negativity is expressed about hooligans from any country.

Regarding trade, yes, trade would of course continue, but the EU trade agreements would no longer stand, so the cost of anything coming from outside the UK would most likely go up. The UK would need to renegotiate every trade agreement that the EU had and the chances of the UK getting as good a deal is very low.

Bryce.


Yep, comes from the media, and if you watch the debates on TV, live EU debates, the French and other nations on several occasions have blatantly tried to get a laugh out of belittling the UK, especially in regards to our defence capabilities, watch it on Youtube, it just makes everyone I know feel angry. It's a complete different picture in Germany and Romania, they love us, and we love them, but for some reason, the others can't stand us. In fact, I was in Amsterdam on a Stag doo, and this women in the restaurant said "You'll never be one of us, you're all a island race". I was shocked, and wasn't the only person who heard it. 


The other thing, if we did leave the EU, it wouldn't happen over night, there's talks of five years, enough time to negotiate, but Britain have more weight than lots of other countries, so shouldn't be an issue, well, that's what all the think tanks believe. Plus, it cost Britain 55 Million a day to be a member of the EU, and we sell arms to most countries around the world and Europe, in fact, I heard that Britain was the biggest supplier of arms, in the world.


If Britain goes, and I hope people don't see this as arrogance, but it'll be the equivalent of a Domino effect, the rest will slowly leave. That's why it's important that we sort any of this shit out together, stay and make the union stronger for everyone. But we can't have non-elected officials telling us what to do, that's not a democracy.


Unfortunately people are ignorant of what's going on in the EU, people are quick to judge, can be so cruel to others, the strength is needing others, not a weakness.


As things stand, we have no control of our borders, 75% of our law is made by the EU, our Supreme Court can be overruled, we're being told that we have to cut links with the common Wealth, and we have to pay a £55 million a day membership fee. 
 
« Last Edit: 14:16, 24 February 16 by ukmarkh »

Offline seanb

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #19 on: 14:25, 24 February 16 »
I worry that without the eu just how spineless will our governments become.

Take the Google debacle.

The eu brings in rules and regulations that I doubt the uk govt would or be as strict as.
Any rules brought in would be in favour of the Eton old boys and business's but not poor slobs like me.
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Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #20 on: 14:33, 24 February 16 »
I worry that without the eu just how spineless will our governments become.

Take the Google debacle.

The eu brings in rules and regulations that I doubt the uk govt would or be as strict as.
Any rules brought in would be in favour of the Eton old boys and business's but not poor slobs like me.


The truth is, the country is old, the infrastructure isn't capable, the NHS is crumbling because of numbers of people using it, try calling your doctors for an appointment the same day, it's unheard of now, people notice this shit, and by bringing in even more people, we're screwing over the services and people that are already trying to prop up our services. My sister is a nurse, and she said it's ridiculous, people waiting in beds in the hallways, sitting on the floor, it's crazy.


We're only a small island, why the fcuk do we think it would be a good idea to populate it with over 100 Million people, I mean c'mon, the maths don't lie, these are the sorts of statistics we're facing. Since 2009 the UK population has gone from 60 Million, up to 64,973,711 million, I mean c'mon, FFS! enough is enough.   

Offline Bryce

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #21 on: 14:33, 24 February 16 »
Actually the UK is the sixth biggest supplier of arms in the world. Third biggest in the EU.

The time to leave the EU is set at 2 years (Lisbon Treaty, Article 50 Rule 3) unless the other members agree to extend it, so all new trade agreements would have to be agreed within that time.

Not sure about the domino effect you speak of, I've seen no sign of any other country questioning their membership and I think most of the newer or smaller states would have bigger problems to leave than the UK.

Have you a link to that EU debate video? I suspect (as so common in these types of things), they may have handpicked the guests that make the biggest waves.

Bryce.

Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #22 on: 14:38, 24 February 16 »

Not sure about the domino effect you speak of, I've seen no sign of any other country questioning their membership and I think most of the newer or smaller states would have bigger problems to leave than the UK.

Bryce.


So you and the other EU countries are happy to have non-elected officials telling you what to do? Is that even a democracy any more?

On the arms question, I think I might have meant, Britains biggest export in the world i.e. our number 1

I'll try and find the vids, but you can search for them, there's loads on the UK.

Offline Bryce

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #23 on: 15:00, 24 February 16 »

So you and the other EU countries are happy to have non-elected officials telling you what to do? Is that even a democracy any more?

On the arms question, I think I might have meant, Britains biggest export in the world i.e. our number 1

I'll try and find the vids, but you can search for them, there's loads on the UK.

As I said, I'm not going to get into the politics of it, only the economics, but yes, many see more advantages to being part of it than being outside of it.

Economically it would be a big disadvantage to be outside the EU for many including the UK. Take the automotive industry for example. Nissan has a plant in Sunderland that produces cars for the EU region and employs probably close to 7000 people directly and indirectly. A huge percentage of these vehicles are destined for sale outside the UK. If the UK left the EU, Nissan would have to pay import duty on the cars destined for mainland Europe, which they are unlikely to do. Their most likely solution would be to shrink the factory over time and move their production to their plant in Spain. Good for Spain, bad for England. And that's just one example, how much UK based production is destined for EU countries outside the UK? Even is only a small percentage of them shift production it would have a major effect on the employment situation in the UK.

Bryce.

Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #24 on: 15:14, 24 February 16 »
As I said, I'm not going to get into the politics of it, only the economics, but yes, many see more advantages to being part of it than being outside of it.

Economically it would be a big disadvantage to be outside the EU for many including the UK. Take the automotive industry for example. Nissan has a plant in Sunderland that produces cars for the EU region and employs probably close to 7000 people directly and indirectly. A huge percentage of these vehicles are destined for sale outside the UK. If the UK left the EU, Nissan would have to pay import duty on the cars destined for mainland Europe, which they are unlikely to do. Their most likely solution would be to shrink the factory over time and move their production to their plant in Spain. Good for Spain, bad for England. And that's just one example, how much UK based production is destined for EU countries outside the UK? Even is only a small percentage of them shift production it would have a major effect on the employment situation in the UK.

Bryce.


There's no evidence to support that Nissan would do that, but I agree, it would seem like the common sense approach. But you didn't answer my question?


I don't believe Britain is this week nation that would suffer, in fact we would work direct with china and Japan, in fact all countries. It wouldn't be in any countries interest to severe relations with Britain.
« Last Edit: 15:16, 24 February 16 by ukmarkh »