Author Topic: Brexit. UK Politics.  (Read 15452 times)

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Offline 1024MAK

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #50 on: 12:37, 25 February 16 »
Please define what an "average bri" is. There is no such thing. An "average" height is just a number derived from the actual heights of a number of people added together, then divided by the total number of people. But the resulting figure does not mean that any significant number of those people are actually that "average" height.

People are rather complex. Most issues are complex. Life is complex. And so real politics is complex (as opposed to the "sound bites" and headlines).

Different generations have different views. People from different areas of life have different views. And of course people from different parts of the country have different views.

Further, as larger numbers of people travel more, including travel around the world, our views change over time.

Typically in UK wide general (national) elections, the pollsters (option poll companies) often get different result to what people actually vote for. Even though large numbers of people always vote for the same party every time. The outcome of which party has the largest number of MPs is mostly decided by a smaller number of so called "floating" voters.

Mark
Looking forward to summer in Somerset :-)

Offline 1024MAK

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #51 on: 12:52, 25 February 16 »
On immigration, I don't think there is any need for any limits whatsoever. Further, I think the UK should send as many ships as possible to pick up as many of the people fleeing the war in Syria as we can. Why on earth should ordinary people suffer war in our so called modern world.

We need to stop blaming everyone and everything else, and instead actually invest in the people (training), in the infrastructure, in our own homes and in expanding public transport.

Mark
Looking forward to summer in Somerset :-)

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #52 on: 13:16, 25 February 16 »
Well, this comment of mine may offend some so I'll delete it if need be, but @1024MAK touched on something real with his last sentence. I would however, take it a step further: stop blaming everyone and everything else and realise that when you bomb, directly, indirectly or through coalitions, entire countries into smithereens you got no right to cry about the outcome.

Offline seanb

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #53 on: 13:23, 25 February 16 »
You know exactly what he means, it's exactly what I touched on earlier, but apparently it's all in my head.

Anyway, this just in:

UK Net Migration Up By 31,000: ONS Figures


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I have no idea what invaders from 1000 years ago has to do with politics of today.

Maybe I missed that conversation
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Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #54 on: 13:36, 25 February 16 »

On immigration, I don't think there is any need for any limits whatsoever. Further, I think the UK should send as many ships as possible to pick up as many of the people fleeing the war in Syria as we can. Why on earth should ordinary people suffer war in our so called modern world.

We need to stop blaming everyone and everything else, and instead actually invest in the people (training), in the infrastructure, in our own homes and in expanding public transport.

Mark

Sorry, you never mentioned where you're gonna get all the money to do this? Have you tried to book an appointment at the doctors recently...


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Offline Dr Tiger Ninestein

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #55 on: 13:42, 25 February 16 »
On immigration, I don't think there is any need for any limits whatsoever.
Mark





What a ridiculous comment. This is a small island, of course there needs to be limit.


I'm by no means against immigration but the country can only take so much.


Have you tried booking a doctors appointment recently? 4 week wait for an appointment at my surgery, green belt land is being built on left right and centre, the traffic on the roads is chaotic. This is all because of mass immigration.



Offline Bryce

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #56 on: 13:44, 25 February 16 »
Please define what an "average bri" is. There is no such thing. An "average" height is just a number derived from the actual heights of a number of people added together, then divided by the total number of people. But the resulting figure does not mean that any significant number of those people are actually that "average" height.

That reminds me of a certain Minister for Education, who claimed that "The majority of students in the country were above average" :D Maths obviously wasn't his strongest point.

@Dr Tiger Ninestein: Waiting lists for doctors aren't necessarily due to immigration, just a sign of an innefficient medical system. Ireland has the same issues and they have barely taken any immigrants, whereas Germany has taken massive amounts of immigrants and the waiting times in Germany haven't noticably changed.

Bryce.
« Last Edit: 13:49, 25 February 16 by Bryce »

Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #57 on: 13:53, 25 February 16 »

Well, this comment of mine may offend some so I'll delete it if need be, but @1024MAK touched on something real with his last sentence. I would however, take it a step further: stop blaming everyone and everything else and realise that when you bomb, directly, indirectly or through coalitions, entire countries into smithereens you got no right to cry about the outcome.

Everyone has blood on their hands, even fellow Muslim countries, they've all got their fingers in the pie. The difference is, these rich Arab countries have all shut their doors on their own people. Why are they heading for Germany, Britain and Sweden, it's because the majority are economic migrants. Do you have any idea how many thousands of healthy young men, between 18 and 40, are getting on boats? How many war fleeing families can afford to pay extortionate rates of 10,000 Euros ahead, unfortunately, some do, but this is a massive minority, of which we sometimes see the unfortunate results.

There was a charity organisation 'The Human Relief Foundation' providing support in the Calais jungle camp to help migrants, aid was pulled, withdrawn after discovering the majority of people were economic migrants. The Human relief deputy found perfectly good clothing and food being dumped or burned, where 97% Percent were found to be adult men.


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Offline Gryzor

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #58 on: 13:57, 25 February 16 »
Oh, I don't disagree with what you're saying; it's still not, however, an answer to my point.


(as for boats... yeah, mate, I live in Greece :D I have a pretty good understanding ;) )

Offline seanb

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #59 on: 13:58, 25 February 16 »
The average brit on the street can't be summed up by what you read in papers or hear about on news reports.

The average brit has their own thoughts that may or may not be lumped in to whatever group the press, especially from abroad, use to talk about them and as such cannot be grouped so easily or are as cut and dry as people are told.

Its an expression not maths and people know that so pedantry doesn't help anyone.
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Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #60 on: 13:59, 25 February 16 »

That reminds me of a certain Minister for Education, who claimed that "The majority of students in the country were above average" :D Maths obviously wasn't his strongest point.

@Dr Tiger Ninestein: Waiting lists for doctors aren't necessarily due to immigration, just a sign of an innefficient medical system. Ireland has the same issues and they have barely taken any immigrants, whereas Germany has taken massive amounts of immigrants and the waiting times in Germany haven't noticably changed.

Bryce.
There's a massive shortage of nurses and doctors in the UK, pushed to breaking point, it takes time to train new doctors, in fact most student doctors don't become fully qualified until late into their thirties, and they make up a large percentage of staff.


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« Last Edit: 14:10, 25 February 16 by Gryzor »

Offline 1024MAK

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #61 on: 13:59, 25 February 16 »
Sorry, you never mentioned where you're gonna get all the money to do this? Have you tried to book an appointment at the doctors recently...
Yes, and look at the real cause - our government. Currently they are p!ss!ng off the very doctors that we need. And the government keep messing the NHS about. Go and complain to your local MP, or write a letter to him/her.
At our local doctors, its 99% native Brits in the waiting room from what I can see.

If people come here and there is work, and they get a job. They earn money and pay tax on that money. Some of that tax then pays for the NHS. More people working means MORE money to pay for MORE improvements to the NHS. But only if the government increase the funding to the NHS. And at the moment, unemployment figures keep going down. And employment figures keep going up. So whats the problem?

A bigger problem is, as people live longer, the number of pensioners is increasing. The state pension is paid from money from current taxation. So we NEED young working people, otherwise there will be a lack of money in the future for YOUR state pension.

Mark 
Looking forward to summer in Somerset :-)

Offline ukmarkh

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Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #62 on: 14:06, 25 February 16 »
Yes, and look at the real cause - our government. Currently they are p!ss!ng off the very doctors that we need. And the government keep messing the NHS about. Go and complain to your local MP, or write a letter to him/her.
At our local doctors, its 99% native Brits in the waiting room from what I can see.

If people come here and there is work, and they get a job. They earn money and pay tax on that money. Some of that tax then pays for the NHS. More people working means MORE money to pay for MORE improvements to the NHS. But only if the government increase the funding to the NHS. And at the moment, unemployment figures keep going down. And employment figures keep going up. So whats the problem?

A bigger problem is, as people live longer, the number of pensioners is increasing. The state pension is paid from money from current taxation. So we NEED young working people, otherwise there will be a lack of money in the future for YOUR state pension.

Mark

There's only a finite amount of jobs, and the infrastructure isn't ready for what's being suggested.Forget any of that, there certainly aren't enough houses, the government is having to pay a fortune to house people in bed and breakfast and guest houses for British families let alone people from abroad.


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« Last Edit: 14:11, 25 February 16 by Gryzor »

Offline Bryce

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #63 on: 14:11, 25 February 16 »
Whatever Brice! There's a massive shortage of nurses and doctors in the UK, pushed to breaking point, it takes time to train new doctors, in fact most student doctors don't become fully qualified until late into their thirties, and they make up a large percentage of staff.


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Yes, I am well aware of that, but that isn't a new problem. I remember when I was living in the UK in the 80's and early 90's that the health system was messed up back then too, well before the immigrants were arriving. Blaiming the NHS problems on the immigrants is just scape-goating. There was a lack of doctors and nurses back then, what have the many "elected by the people governments" done to solve this problem (which is fully in their control, not influenced by EU decisions)?

Bryce.

Offline 1024MAK

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #64 on: 14:11, 25 February 16 »
What a ridiculous comment. This is a small island, of course there needs to be limit.
So small, that I can walk or drive in the countryside for miles without seeing a house or another person. So small, that if you go looking hard enough, there are remains of long ago abandoned villages.
I'm by no means against immigration but the country can only take so much.
Of course, but we are nowhere near any kind of practical problem at the moment. There may be some local difficulties in some areas (like lack of school places). But with a bit of effort, that can be sorted out.
Have you tried booking a doctors appointment recently? 4 week wait for an appointment at my surgery
See my earlier post.
green belt land is being built on left right and centre, the traffic on the roads is chaotic. This is all because of mass immigration.
What mass immigration? There has been no mass immigration. The problems you talk about have happened  / would have happened without any immigration anyway. The housing problems are partly down to very little local government house building since Thatcher gave people the right to buy. People travel more, but there has been a lack of investment in public transport - hence the roads fill up, as the cost of owning a car falls.

Mark
Looking forward to summer in Somerset :-)

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #65 on: 14:11, 25 February 16 »
Posts being edited. Keep up like that and I'll be just deleting them.

Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #66 on: 14:27, 25 February 16 »

Yes, I am well aware of that, but that isn't a new problem. I remember when I was living in the UK in the 80's and early 90's that the health system was messed up back then too, well before the immigrants were arriving. Blaiming the NHS problems on the immigrants is just scape-goating. There was a lack of doctors and nurses back then, what have the many "elected by the people governments" done to solve this problem (which is fully in their control, not influenced by EU decisions)?

Bryce.

I tell you what, let's just keep upping the population shall we, put more pressure on the NHS, roads and god knows what other services. The NHS currently has a massive problem with Obesity, and the illnesses that are a byproduct of it, it's not as black and white as you see it. There's many problems, a topic for another debate. Living in Britain in the 1980's is completely different to 2016!


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Offline Gryzor

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Offline Bryce

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #68 on: 14:35, 25 February 16 »
I tell you what, let's just keep upping the population shall we, put more pressure on the NHS, roads and god knows what other services. The NHS currently has a massive problem with Obesity, and the illnesses that are a byproduct of it, it's not as black and white as you see it. There's many problems, a topic for another debate. Living in Britain in the 1980's is completely different to 2016!


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I'm not arguing that it's not a problem or that the NHS hasn't many other fires to put out. I was just pointing out that there are many problems (NHS is just one example), where the EU / immigration or whatever is being blaimed as the cause, rather than admitting and trying to fix the real problem. It seems like every time the UK government is faced with another problem that they have been ignoring for far too long, the answer is "the EU made us do it" or "it would all work fine if we weren't in the EU".

Bryce.

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #69 on: 14:37, 25 February 16 »
Well, according to Wikipedia, foreign-born persons were 12% back in 2011. I guess there's been an increase, let's say 15%. For me that's undoubtedly too high. On the other hand does anyone really suggest that this 15% (or 17.6% on top of the UK-born population) is enough to strain the NHS (or any other system) to the point it is now? From what I've been reading for years (I lived there in 2002-2003, and they were saying the exact same things), definitely not.

Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #70 on: 14:41, 25 February 16 »
There's no point me taking part in this debate anymore due to the over sensitive nature of moderation, several of my posts have been deleted or watered down. These unnecessary actions have taken away my appetite to continue the debate.


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Offline 1024MAK

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #71 on: 14:43, 25 February 16 »
Looking forward to summer in Somerset :-)

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #72 on: 14:43, 25 February 16 »
Deleted - no. If by "watered down" you mean editing out pearls of wisdom like "I call 99% of your arguments bullshit" then yeah, guilty as charged.


You may find this "unnecessary" but as a moderator I see it as indispensable to have a calm, civilised and productive discussion. Your choice.

Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #73 on: 14:59, 25 February 16 »

Deleted - no. If by "watered down" you mean editing out pearls of wisdom like "I call 99% of your arguments bullshit" then yeah, guilty as charged.


You may find this "unnecessary" but as a moderator I see it as indispensable to have a calm, civilised and productive discussion. Your choice.

You're a liar, I didn't say that!


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Offline Munchausen

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #74 on: 15:15, 25 February 16 »
There's a massive shortage of nurses and doctors in the UK, pushed to breaking point, it takes time to train new doctors, in fact most student doctors don't become fully qualified until late into their thirties, and they make up a large percentage of staff.

My brother is a GP, and for him it was more like 20's early 30's, but it depends exactly what kind of doctor you want to be and on luck, so it could be that long.

NHS staff are treated badly, there is no doubt there. It's an individual case, but my brother works 5 days a week and is on call for 3 evenings in the week and 1 day on the weekend. At times he has also been doing call out work for other surgeries/hospitals at the same time. The GP surgery partnership is losing money but as a newly qualified GP he has to invest in the partnership to keep his job, but it's like throwing money away. And he earns less than you think. And now they want to make him work weekends as normal days in the surgery too.