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General Category => Other retro => Topic started by: SuTeKH/Epyteor on 17:24, 13 February 16

Title: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: SuTeKH/Epyteor on 17:24, 13 February 16
A couple of "not-really" random examples of C64 graphics converted to the CPC palette (recoloured, as the popular expression goes).
Proof that the dull, washed-out, saturated-brown/grey colours of the Commodore machine are far superior to the bright, lively, comic-esque colours of the Amstrad CPC range of machines.

( apologies, as always, to the original authors. All images downloaded from Commodore 64 Pixel Art Gallery (http://c64pixels.com/main.php) )

- SET 1 of 6
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: SuTeKH/Epyteor on 17:25, 13 February 16
SET 2 of 6

Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: SuTeKH/Epyteor on 17:27, 13 February 16
SET 3 of 6

Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: SuTeKH/Epyteor on 17:28, 13 February 16
SET 4 of 6


Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: SuTeKH/Epyteor on 17:30, 13 February 16
SET 5 of 6


Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: SuTeKH/Epyteor on 17:32, 13 February 16
SET 6 of 6


Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: reidrac on 17:45, 13 February 16
Some of those screens are really good, thanks for the post.

I don't know much about the C64, but I suspect some of the comments about its palette are undeserved; like some comments about the CPC are total rubbish (I guess it happens with all systems).

I read somewhere that the C64 is good for organic shapes (I can see it in some of the pictures, where the CPC looks perhaps a little too saturated), but I wouldn't go that far as to say is "superior".

The C64 is not currently in may list, but you never know ;)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: HAL 6128 on 18:28, 13 February 16
Those pictures are great. I like them (independent from which computer it came from).

The C64 has advantages when images shows a true environment. I can see more (smoother) gradients (e.g. grey). But superior, no! Just different tastes.

The CPC has definitly a higher saturation or color brightness. It's clearly visible in the comparison (thanks for it). But the more fantastic or imaginary the picture is the more I like the CPC colors.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ukmarkh on 18:39, 13 February 16
Yep, I think the C64 suffered when compared to the CPC in the colour department. We had both as kids growing up, and would always buy the same game to compare, crazy I know, but more often than not, the C64 had the better game or conversion, but when the Amstrad was programmed properly, using Mode0 and to its full strength, we were all in agreement that the CPC was just as capable as any other 8bit, including the C64. 
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: 1024MAK on 04:47, 14 February 16
This is so, so much a matter of taste and what the viewer prefers.

Some look better on the C64. Some look better on the CPC.

WITH BOTH machines, an improved colour palette would have been nice. But we are where we are.

Note that machines designed to output only composite video (and S-Video) will nearly always have a lower saturated colour range compared to machines that output RGB. This is due to the restrictions and limitations of the way the video signal is generated and processed. Also, note that composite and S-Video signals can be (and are) subject to the colour, brightness and contrast settings on the TV / VDU.

Mark
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Morri on 08:44, 14 February 16
First of all, these pictures are amazing and a real credit to the original artists and to your conversion skills.

Second, it really is horses for courses with these pictures. I judged each picture while trying to be as unbiased as possible. In all honesty it was an even split right down the middle at 25-25. I chose the C64 when the picture was gritty, moody or featured people. I chose the CPC when the pictures were cartoony, during the day or just required that extra shot of colour.

Overall I still prefer the CPC's palette because I have always loved cartoons and imaginary settings and that suits the CPC perfectly.

EDIT: Oops, I missed the last set and after having a quick look, the C64 took it out 33-27 because the pictures suited it's palette a bit more. But what I said originally still stands about the horses thing, each machine had it's strengths depending on what was required.

Lastly, any chance these pictures could be put onto dsk as a slideshow?
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Executioner on 12:00, 14 February 16
I'd prefer my F40 in the red over the brown any day!
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ivarf on 12:18, 14 February 16
How can you prove anything by converting screens from the C64. Are you proving that the CPC palette his so good that the screens still look good? Some of the faces/flesh tones looks better on the C64 as well as the money
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ivarf on 12:19, 14 February 16
I'd prefer my F40 in the red over the brown any day!
Why didn't the artist choose a red Ferrari on the C64? Something to do with shading?
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Zoe Robinson on 14:35, 14 February 16
I like the 2000AD images, that bit was cool. As for which colour scheme is "superior", the truth is neither are. A good artist will make good art regardless of the colours available, and a bad artist will make bad art. It's that simple. If you want to see this in action, visit drunkduck and see what people are crapping out when they have all the colours in the universe available.


Colours don't matter, talent does.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ||C|-|E|| on 14:52, 14 February 16
I think that all the pictures, CPC or C64, look just great. About the color palette in general, I like the cartoony and cheery colors of the CPC more but this is probably because I had the computer when I still was a little kid and, back in time, I was loving everything that popped out in terms of colors. Looking at the CPC screen makes me travel on time, however, the others do not have the same charm for me. This is, obviously, because I grew with the CPC :-).

P.D: I was showing the pictures to my GF, that was never in contact with 8 bit computers, and in fact she does not like the images on the right (except in a few cases) because she thinks that the colors are just too bright  :) .
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: andycadley on 16:28, 14 February 16
Why didn't the artist choose a red Ferrari on the C64? Something to do with shading?
He did. That's what "red" on the C64 look like.

In general I'd say it's a split which is better, certainly some of the C64 colours fit better (particularly flesh tones) but in a lot of cases really do look quite washed out. If anything it shows that the very limited colour selections of 8-bit machines didn't always give an ideal range of colours. It wasn't until the 16-bits (and late generation 8-bits like the CPC+ and SAM Coupe) that artists had a more ideal selection of colours to work with that gave them choices to better suit different situations.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ZbyniuR on 17:21, 14 February 16
All of these images are beautiful. You made great job. Most of them I like the same in both palettes. But games I prefer in candy CPC palette, and pictures of naked ladies in C64. Whatever saying beige is beige. But I think that as you convert to C64 images originally made on CPC, is also going to have feeling that lost some charm.

Try in free time some pictures from Atari XE. There will be more difficult because many of them have 30 colors on screen at once, with a range of 256 and overscan.
G2F (http://g2f.atari8.info/gallery/index.html)

I tried with some using fast blinking palette of 125 colors. I mean normal minimum light is 0, maximum 2 so 3x3x3=27, but instead this combining two colors gave minimum 0, maximum 4 so 5x5x5=125. And the same method can display images from CPC+, or from C64 with colors closer to C64.

Here you are DSK with few blinking pictures, first  run"0
DICE-OFF, MONSTERS and NEPTUNKA are from Atari scene convert into PLUS palete and show as 125 palette blinking colors (16 at once normal MODE 0)

GRANMA and SIDILUST from C64 as 125 palette
CHRONOS and MIRA2 (I don't remember from where) 125 blinking
and FRED, LISKI and SIC! from ATARI in normal CPC palette.
And DOM.BAS overscan from ATARI in normal palette or DOM2.BAS the same with blinking.

Please let me know what you think about this method showing pictures from other platform. :)

Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: dodogildo on 20:24, 14 February 16
I love C64 palette. It has a very strong and unique personality. As a graphic artist for more than 20 years, I never understood why our community praised CPC's oversaturated palette that much (but I have a theory) . Bright colors have nothing to do with good (or bad) graphics. They're just colors. They have to get combined in a certain way in order to be meaningful.

IMHO what make computer graphics unique are the animation and the interaction. To tell the truth, C64, sadly, dominated those areas and we CPC owners got bullied a lot back in those days.

May be that's why we are still trying to hit them back with that nonsense palette issue.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 20:28, 14 February 16
Quote
Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
I don't know, I have a PLUS...
 :laugh:

Also you cannot simply put a palette swap and simply compare... if palettes are different and le lightings and gradiants, so the pixels have to be done differently.

You would not get to the same exact composition if you have different colours or limitations to work with.
You wouldn't treat the surfaces, shadows and lightings, or even shapes the same way either.

C64 is based on Grey and Brown... CPC is not... at all.

And while C64 has some limitations of 4 inks in each charcaters (in big pixels 160x200) the CPC can put more inks into those small squares...


exemples :

Spock and kirk :
the C64 lighter hues for the skin is a light grey, while on CPC it is White... you wouldn't apply the same quantity of this and on CPC you would use more black to underline and shadow.

Also remember that on a real CRT you clearly don't have such a clean thing as on those done for PC mockups/theoric display.


Also all the cartoonish ones are clearly better on CPC...

number 13 : CPC version could get better hue shifts and colour ramps... you went for the most straightforward colour ramps while many others could have been choosen.

(http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/82781-axe-of-rage-commodore-64-screenshot-title-screen.png)
(http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/games/barbarian-2-oddities/?action=dlattach;attach=13450;image)
on this one, while the flesh is a bit less realistic on CPC (not too bad anyway) you can put more difference in the jewelry or golden bikini while the C64 ones are melted to the brown of the flesh.
can also put more details on the sword's hilt... I added a bright red gem, such fine detail can catch the eyes (or the boobs do already) so you may not notice other lest detailed parts.
Same with birght red lips....



[attachimg=1]
This one has to be different on both systems... here I tried some slight hue shift... the red goes a bit magenta, the green goes a bit cyan (not the ebst one to be honest, was jsut trying) and the blue goes slightly purple/magenta as well.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: andycadley on 20:54, 14 February 16
I think a lot of artists like the C64 palette because the colours blend better, making it easier to add highlights/lowlights to things and give them a more "real" feel. The downside of that is that the colours blend better, making it more difficult get sharp, distinct graphics. So whilst it's great for static images, it all feels a bit smeary when you're playing a game - the low resolution and colour bleed really don't help there either.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 21:11, 14 February 16
Also as all the "colours" are mixed with some sort of grey... you get the proper light and shade, but not always the proper hues.



Also some spaces can be filled up with ditherings on CPC.

[attachimg=1]
some details would need to be redone a bit. I redesigned a bit the lips in order to respect the original artwork.
https://ullizee.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/alan-moore-halo-jones.jpg (https://ullizee.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/alan-moore-halo-jones.jpg)
she is suposed to have big red lips, the c64 version somewhate screwed those .
removed the medium RED (saturated) from the skin... she is not suppsoed to be sunburnt...


[attachimg=2]
More contrast here, removed the "dark yellow" because it doesn't goes with a skin and give a greenish feeling.... the eyes could get better pixelisation and colours on CPC... I removed the dark Red from them...
Dark Cyan and Grey (medium white) are too close to get contrast, never use them together in the same gradiant because dark Cyan is not a darker grey... it is jsut a medium blueish grey... (same with dark yellow, it is just a medium golden/bronze grey)
You used dark Magenta (purple?) to highlight the Dark blue.
I used the more rounded and blueish Mauve (mix between Blue and Magenta/purple/violet)

[attachimg=3]
Same with the fish, the dark magenta is too saturated... should use Mauve instead.
used medium blue for the water around... basically such piece should actually use many more colours on CPC because CPC can...
But this means it would consume lots of time to redo the ditherings, especially on the water.

[attachimg=4]
DarkRed with green  ? nope... use dark blue with the green, really goes better in this case.
Also face skin is now brighter but also more realistic (somewhat) even if quite different from the c64 version.

Well, all those are matters of opinion of course.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Bryce on 22:54, 14 February 16
A couple of "not-really" random examples of C64 graphics converted to the CPC palette (recoloured, as the popular expression goes).
Proof that the dull, washed-out, saturated-brown/grey colours of the Commodore machine are far superior to the bright, lively, comic-esque colours of the Amstrad CPC range of machines.

( apologies, as always, to the original authors. All images downloaded from Commodore 64 Pixel Art Gallery (http://c64pixels.com/main.php) )

- SET 1 of 6

You've mis-spelt the word inferior, it doesn't start with an "s" :)

Bryce.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 23:03, 14 February 16
I don't think C64 would perform well to render some Pony action...

except for perhaps only AppleJack's hat...

(http://screenshots.fr.sftcdn.net/fr/scrn/69688000/69688240/my-little-pony-friendship-is-magic-pour-windows-8-08-700x393.jpg)

Clearly a machine unfit to render Pinkie Pie or Rainbow Dash may not be qualified as a serious graphic station.
And we all know Amstrad is a serious Cartoon rendering station.


[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]


BTW CPC was often critisezed because it simply couldn't use C64 graphics with a simple convenient palette swap.

You reallly had to redo so many way to put colours and it was basically not compatible.

(http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/192596-spherical-commodore-64-screenshot-puzzle-00.png)
(http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/192602-spherical-amstrad-cpc-screenshot-puzzle-00.png)

also the limitations were very different.

C64 would not use an additional blue because it couldn't, but would use a grey. So they wouldn't try to use more blues...

[attachimg=4]
look here, on the CPC the planet could have been done dto actually include far more blues, this would then get a totally different way to put the pixels... But C64 could only put 2 blues, +blackandWhite... and a limitation of 4 colours per characters, while CPC could do it with no such limitations.
But yeah, it is ported from C64.
the grey vessel : obviously not possible on CPC.
As I said, to mix Grey + DarkCyan or Dark yellow on CPC doesn't goes well...
Like Pink (pastel red) and Orange are too close colours...
Here I tried a shifted Cyan gradiant :
Dark Cyan - sea green (green+cyan) and Pastel Cyan.
the light hue shift from the sea green gets some slight extra contrast the plain medium cyan and pastel cyan won't have.
But yeah, it is not grey as in the original one and not as well contrasted. should also get some slight highlights of white.
same with the planet, should add perhaps 2-3 extra "layers" in the gradiant/hue. from darkBlue to white.

LEt's do it the other way :
(http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/139511-contra-amstrad-cpc-screenshot-destroy-the-base-to-proceed.png)
(http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/136286-contra-commodore-64-screenshot-boss.png)
 ;D
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 00:32, 15 February 16
[attachimg=1]

@SuTeKH/Epyteor (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=466)
ok I will soon go to bed but would like to do some comments on the way you ported some of those graphics.

First I like the way you come HERE to start such a topic with such a title.
(http://i.imgur.com/nTofzNE.png)

as many said, some of them are actually best looking on CPC, other not.

the use of green :
clearly CPC and c64 have a radically different way to use greens.
On CPC you mustn't use as many hues in green, and compensate with a slight hue shift (from green to pastel yellow, per example).
You can't just put dark red- dark green-flashy green and even more brightly flashy greens... lol
C64 : use some brown then go to green... not possible at all on CPC.
So on CPC you have to use one of the variant of "bright green" then swith to pastel yellow or cyan...

Same with Cyan and Yellow : medium and pastel are very close, the medium pure one being saturated, the pastel being more "neutral", but some hybrid hues like sea green or lime can be used as real medium hue/shade...

Ditherings :
Basically compaired to C64, somethimes you may have to replace C64 ditherings by a CPC colour and C64 colours by CPC dithering zone.
on CPC the more you have nice dithered zones, the more you remove colour saturation.

dithering is what get you from here :
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/AmstradCPC_palette.png)
to there :
(http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/8/80/R5G5B5_CPC_complete_ditherings.png)

Blue : you would too often use the simple Blue-sky blue-cyan... really there are many more variations on the matter.
And basically you may replace some dithering zones on C64 into new extra blues on CPC.

Primary colours :
in order to not get saturation : use mostly dark and pastel variants, the primary/secondary (medium ones) are to be used only if really needed, so for object that are supposed to have such hue (flowers, blood, and so on).
Skin is not red, so you don't put pure flashy primary red on skin please... basically "white" skin would be Black-darkred-pink/orange (never both)- pastel yellow.. the "main zone" being ideally dithered Pink (pastelRed) and pastel yellow...

So yeah, if you only swap inks, you cannot get good result unless cartoonish or specific cases.
You really have to re-do pixels and shade zones, swap pure colours and ditherings and sometimes get some elements into a different hue.


Many Many more things to say, I hope this thread is not finished yet...

[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: TFM on 04:08, 15 February 16
A couple of "not-really" random examples of C64 graphics converted to the CPC palette (recoloured, as the popular expression goes).
Proof that the dull, washed-out, saturated-brown/grey colours of the Commodore machine are far superior to the bright, lively, comic-esque colours of the Amstrad CPC range of machines.



Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Frank on 14:39, 15 February 16
Hehe, I learn two things from this comparison:
wow, C64 has great pixel artists!
And: you guys DO recall that you have a knob to set the color saturation on you TV/Monitor for the C64?
Anyone ever saw such grey images on his screen? This is hilarious and reveals WAY more than the initial poster probably intended, hehe.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Gryzor on 16:49, 15 February 16
I really don't think that any amount of saturation fixing would do the c64 palette much good (make it bleed, more like it).


That said, as others stated before me, some pictures do look better on the c64, of course. But this comparison is so one-sided it makes no sense. How about we take some CPC favorites and convert them to the c64 palette? That'd need to be part of the comparison, no?
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Bryce on 16:54, 15 February 16
As the C64 was originally "tuned" for NTSC, comparing the CPC to C64 PAL screens isn't really fair either.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MaV on 18:27, 15 February 16
Bryce, that is certainly true, but then again almost all current productions for the C64 are done with PAL in mind; the demoscene is mostly a European thing.


Most of the converted pictures look like they are lighted much stronger from one light source. Human bodies especially seems to be well-oiled and glistening in the light (not that there's anything wrong with that. ;) )

MacDeath is right from my POV.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ZbyniuR on 19:39, 15 February 16
I see 9 persons took my dsk from #17 post with pictures in blinking colors, but nobody said a word, is it good idea or not.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: SRS on 20:31, 15 February 16
I see 9 persons took my dsk from #17 post with pictures in blinking colors, but nobody said a word, is it good idea or not.

I took a look at 'em. Interesting work - but I did not see the effect on most of em - but DOM !

It is a incredible difference between normal and blinking - blinking looks way better !
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: SRS on 20:57, 15 February 16
Looky Looky :

http://www.indieretronews.com/search/label/AMSTRAD (http://www.indieretronews.com/2016/02/is-c64-palette-far-superior-to-amstrad.html)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Nich on 21:31, 15 February 16
I see 9 persons took my dsk from #17 post with pictures in blinking colors, but nobody said a word, is it good idea or not.

I downloaded it, but I don't like this technique of 'creating' additional colours by alternating between 2 colours very rapidly. Even on a real CPC monitor, I notice the flashing and I find it ugly and very distracting.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 22:01, 15 February 16
I see many persons took a like to my posts with pictures in CPC colors, but nobody said a word, is it good idea or not ?

 :laugh:

jokes appart :
(http://c64pixels.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4117&g2_serialNumber=10)

(http://www.lemon64.com/games/screenshots/full/r/rainbow_dragon_01.gif)

I fail to see any Rainbow...

[attachimg=1]

But yeah, really need to account for all the other colours that may be added this dragon could use like 2-3 extra shades/hues...
... I also corrected a lot of character artefacts.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: andycadley on 22:02, 15 February 16
I took a look at 'em. Interesting work - but I did not see the effect on most of em - but DOM !

It is a incredible difference between normal and blinking - blinking looks way better !
On an emulator, it looks terrible. I thought maybe it's one of those "real hardware" things, but having tried it on my 6128+/CM14 it's still pretty much epilepsy valley - it doesn't really give any feel of extra colours and the flickering is enormously apparent. Maybe on older CPC monitors it works better but I haven't gone one to try it on. That said I've seen lots of variations on this "technique" on different 8-bit systems and I've yet to see any of them that work convincingly.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: TFM on 22:03, 15 February 16
I see many persons took a like to my posts with pictures in CPC colors, but nobody said a word, is it good idea or not ?
 :laugh:


Well, you know nobody wants to get in an argument with this Sutek guy, but yes your idea is great!  :) :) :)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: SRS on 22:12, 15 February 16
On an emulator, it looks terrible. I thought maybe it's one of those "real hardware" things, but having tried it on my 6128+/CM14 it's still pretty much epilepsy valley - it doesn't really give any feel of extra colours and the flickering is enormously apparent. Maybe on older CPC monitors it works better but I haven't gone one to try it on. That said I've seen lots of variations on this "technique" on different 8-bit systems and I've yet to see any of them that work convincingly.

I just saw it on winape and only DOM showed me a "wow"-effect.  I'm more into "dithering" on CPC to get more colours.

Maybe I am just blind for more than 16 colours on one screen, Schneider Imprinting / Wdrukowanie, you know
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: SRS on 22:14, 15 February 16
I see many persons took a like to my posts with pictures in CPC colors, but nobody said a word, is it good idea or not ?

Not my cup ot tea  :P
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: andycadley on 22:15, 15 February 16
I just saw it on winape and only DOM showed me a "wow"-effect.  I'm more into "dithering" on CPC to get more colours.

Maybe I am just blind for more than 16 colours on one screen, Schneider Imprinting / Wdrukowanie, you know

The DOM one will load a standard CPC+ palette on WinAPE by default, which certainly does look nice but that's the benefit of 4095 colours!
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: SRS on 22:18, 15 February 16
Ah, okay ! Now I'd like to pimp my 6128 to 6128+
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: HAL 6128 on 22:43, 15 February 16
Proof that the dull, washed-out, saturated-brown/grey colours of the Commodore machine are far superior to the bright, lively, comic-esque colours of the Amstrad CPC range of machines.
Aehmm,... no ;)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 22:57, 15 February 16
Quote
Maybe I am just blind for more than 16 colours on one screen, Schneider Imprinting / Wdrukowanie, you know
Lol, then those 27 colours may hurt you :
(http://mag.mo5.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/mammouth-reset20.png)

Also because I like being a pathetic show of :
(http://img110.xooimage.com/files/2/c/a/bubbles-of-the-mind-final-4bd3e29.png)

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcplus&fiche=7392&slot=1&part=A&type=.png)
yeah, not every Amstrads are pathetic in grey&browns...

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=12034&slot=2&part=A&type=.png)

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=12030&slot=2&part=A&type=.png)

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=11539&slot=2&part=A&type=.png)

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=9935&slot=1&part=A&type=.png)

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=9934&slot=4&part=A&type=.png)

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=10375&slot=4&part=A&type=.png)

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=12534&slot=2&part=A&type=.png)

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=plan&fiche=12458&slot=4&part=A&type=.png)
this one would scroll of course...

sometimes Mode1 is enough...
(http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/2/22/Jill_lawson-2-tutmask.png)
(http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/b/b6/Jill_lawson-bridge.png)
(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=diaporama&fiche=10373&slot=15&part=A&type=.png)
(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=diaporama&fiche=10373&slot=5&part=A&type=.png)
(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=diaporama&fiche=10373&slot=12&part=A&type=.png)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: SRS on 23:02, 15 February 16
Lol, then those 27 colours may hurt you :

I see only green and black - so what ?


 :P :P :P

EDIT: Nice work. As stated before, art is not my gift. Keep it comin' !
 
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodore 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 01:18, 16 February 16
Porting C64 graphics to the CPC - pretty damn easy, with some manual fixing of character artifacts to improve it further. Moody dark miserable grey/brown scenes might not port well.


Porting CPC graphics to the C64 - HARD.


C64 display compromises for fast gaming performance, sprites and hardware scrolling - yeah, give us our palette win at least, eh!
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 01:34, 16 February 16
Also while you may have to turn the colour saturation setting to the max on your TV to get the C64 actually display a "as if" feeling of pseudo colours... you can also set the colour saturation into medium when plugging a CPC and guess what... it works even better as 27 is clearly better than 16..

C64 has only one Yellow that serves mostly as brown highlight or to make believe there are some greens, one cyan that serves as Blue substitute, and one Mauve/magenta that serves as pseduo Blue/purple.

Basically all the grey patches in a "colour ramp" are like a "missing colour" zone.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM1BSm3Bsho (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM1BSm3Bsho)

Now please convert those on C64 :
(http://cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=diaporama&fiche=4025&slot=6&part=A&type=.png)
(http://cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=diaporama&fiche=4025&slot=10&part=A&type=.png)
(http://cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=diaporama&fiche=4025&slot=15&part=A&type=.png)
(http://cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=diaporama&fiche=4025&slot=2&part=A&type=.png)

Another fun one :
(http://cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=143&slot=1&part=A&type=.png)
(http://cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=portage&fiche=143&slot=1&part=V_143_spectrum01.png)
(http://www.gb64.com/Screenshots/H/Die_Heilige_Ruestung_des_Antiriad_1.png)
(http://www.gb64.com/Screenshots/S/The_Sacred_Armour_of_Antiriad_1.png)

(http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/62347-r-type-commodore-64-screenshot-an-end-of-level-boss.gif)
(http://cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=7174&slot=2&part=A&type=.png)
(http://cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=7174&slot=1&part=A&type=.png)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: dodogildo on 02:07, 16 February 16
Palette is insignificant. Animation/interaction is what counts in terms of computer art presentation.

These are computers for God's sake. Not just plain canvases. On these grounds C64 already won the war some 30 years ago. While our CPC won the best all around 8bit machine Oscar maybe.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ZbyniuR on 04:27, 16 February 16
Take graphics from C64 is ease, so next challenge C+4
Carrion's Gfx - Software Details - Plus/4 World (http://plus4world.powweb.com/software/Carrions_Gfx)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Gryzor on 09:51, 16 February 16
A bit off-topic, but BoingBoing (http://boingboing.net/2016/02/15/which-8-bit-computer-had-the-b.html) is crediting IndieRetroNews for the image collection...*sigh*
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Bryce on 10:26, 16 February 16
Bryce, that is certainly true, but then again almost all current productions for the C64 are done with PAL in mind; the demoscene is mostly a European thing.

Most of the converted pictures look like they are lighted much stronger from one light source. Human bodies especially seems to be well-oiled and glistening in the light (not that there's anything wrong with that. ;) )

MacDeath is right from my POV.

Yes, but the HARDWARE was made for NTSC and then bodged to work on PAL. So the colour values are wrong. The coding can't change that.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MaV on 11:52, 16 February 16
Yes, but the HARDWARE was made for NTSC and then bodged to work on PAL. So the colour values are wrong. The coding can't change that.
Can't argue with that. :D
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Oliver Lindau on 13:59, 16 February 16
This is one picture by Robin Levy from the comparison collection here. I used an early VIC 6569R1 color scheme, because the pic was obviously pixelled with those lumas.

Up right is still CPC and down right is the default VICE emulator screenshot. Up left is showing the emulator adjusted to my CRT monitor settings, and down left is based on the same settings with CRT emulation to represent the colour bleed effect between black and dark colours and the correct pixel aspect ratio.

(http://vetodrom.com/media/common/c64pixels/c64nexttocpc.png)


I adjusted my Commodore 1084s monitor with an Amiga and - whoops - switching to C64 and colours are way more saturated than a default emulator screenshot. How can that be while emulator screenshots look so different? Well, that is what happens if you force the visuals of a machine never been manufactured for RGB specifications and its video output even surpassing the RGB colour range. You have to lower brightness to get a 1:1 expression including white and yellow and so the result is dark and washed out. The advantage is that pics represent proper luminance value between those colors, but it does not look like similar to the real machine.

Everybody knows that CYMK and RGB are not the same thing, it is similar between the C64 and CPC (which colours are based on RGB). What I did for adopting the colours was using one C64 picture on both machines at the monitor, messing around with the color palette in Deluxe Paint until both match and adjusted the result with VICE settings... result was a saturation value about 1.9 - which is still not the same level as a CPC.


And because there is no standard hardware for C64 there is no single common palette here. It depends on the artist preferences. Joe and Carrion for example prefer low saturated PEPTO - those are a good basis for realistic skin tones. Others - like STE'86, Robin Levy and me prefer those bright oldschool settings.

Some time ago I did a comparison between different palettes here.


"Reflected" was created by Joe who confirmed that he prefers PEPTO (down right picture)
(http://vetodrom.com/media/ctest/reflected.png)

"Wizball" was created by STE'86. His palette is based on early VIC color scheme (up right)
(http://vetodrom.com/media/ctest/wizball.png)

"25 years of yie ar kung-fu" was created by me with my own setup (up left)
(http://vetodrom.com/media/ctest/yiearkungfu.png)


btw IMO both systems have great palettes. Both have excellent potential for a wide range of graphic styles and motifs. 'nuff said.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Neil79 on 14:46, 16 February 16
A bit off-topic, but BoingBoing (http://boingboing.net/2016/02/15/which-8-bit-computer-had-the-b.html) is crediting IndieRetroNews for the image collection...*sigh*


So you needed to post that here, on our site and on BoingBoing too... Bit low  :picard:


It's not our fault and we did collect the images, it was just from here even mentioned as such. Not sure what else I could've  done
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MaV on 17:08, 16 February 16
Some time ago I did a comparison between different palettes here.
Welcome Oliver!

Good post, and, hopefully, you'll be inclined to join discussion here in the future too!
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Neil79 on 17:12, 16 February 16
Welcome Oliver!

Good post, and, hopefully, you'll be inclined to join discussion here in the future too!


Oliver is the same dev behind this little beauty :)


Caren and the Tangled Tentacles
Indie Retro News: Caren and the Tangled Tentacles (v1.1) - Winner of the Forum64 (http://www.indieretronews.com/2015/10/caren-and-tangled-tentacles-v11-winner.html)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: beschizza on 17:16, 16 February 16
Sorry about the misattribution at Boing Boing. Gryzor got in touch with me and I just fixed it.


Rob

Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Gryzor on 17:27, 16 February 16
@Neil79 (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1097) : low? Er... where did I accuse you of anything? Chill, man :D  I even said, in my comment, that *you* did proper attribution (here, I can use facepalms too:  :picard2:  )


Thanks to Rob for fixing it, although we did miss out on the initial inbound traffic. Oh well!
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ukmarkh on 17:34, 16 February 16
Anyone who thinks the C64 has a better colour palette than the CPC, is living in fanboy fantasy land!


Better capabilities and graphics in-game, yes, but at the cost of looking washed out for 90% of games.


I've also noticed over the years that the C64 has less sprites on screen, when compared to Amstrad games, by in large.   
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Neil79 on 18:16, 16 February 16
@Neil79 (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1097) : low? Er... where did I accuse you of anything? Chill, man :D  I even said, in my comment, that *you* did proper attribution (here, I can use facepalms too:  :picard2:  )



Sorry Gryzor, just had to deal with a few commentors giving me backlash lately over SuTeKH/Epyteor's post!


 >:(
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 19:02, 16 February 16
Quote
Palette is insignificant. Animation/interaction is what counts in terms of computer art presentation.

These are computers for God's sake. Not just plain canvases. On these grounds C64 already won the war some 30 years ago. While our CPC won the best all around 8bit machine Oscar maybe.
The topic is indeed oriented on pure graphics... so big full screen static pictures with art in them is where it's at.

And it is one of the rare aspect where CPC can actually pass for a powerhouse compaired to most pre-1985-8biters...


So yeah, let's battle for this !!!




also I'm still waiting for some awesome display of what C64 can do in software only sprites...
 ;D


Quote
Caren and the Tangled Tentacles
Nice one, I too love those tentacle rape fetishes from Japan...
 :D

(Also would be great to have a proper CPC/PLUS port of this one... pleeee-ze)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: andycadley on 20:36, 16 February 16
Yeah, Caren and the Tangled Tentacles looks like a lovely game and something that would be great to see on other systems. Would be fascinating to read about how it works from a technical standpoint too.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ||C|-|E|| on 20:51, 16 February 16
I would definitely try to develop something like Karen with if I had the proper framework available for the CPC, something like SCUMM for our machines  :) . Sadly, creating one of these frameworks is way beyond my skills and coding the engine from scratch as well  :-X .
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 21:27, 16 February 16
yeah, Carmen and the hairy tentacle... should be a spanish game...
 :laugh:
 :picard:


and yeah, some proper library for some SCUMM*-like engine on CPC is definitaly somethings that has to be done one day... at last.
But I guess it is get slidy on the topic.

Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: andycadley on 21:30, 16 February 16
I would definitely try to develop something like Karen with if I had the proper framework available for the CPC, something like SCUMM for our machines  :) . Sadly, creating one of these frameworks is way beyond my skills and coding the engine from scratch as well  :-X .

One of the reasons it would be really nice if technical information was available is because we could move towards something that could viably be ported between 8-bit platforms without needing "developer" effort. A kind of P.A.W. for point and click.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: SRS on 22:18, 16 February 16
I would definitely try to develop something like Karen with if I had the proper framework available for the CPC, something like SCUMM for our machines  :) . Sadly, creating one of these frameworks is way beyond my skills and coding the engine from scratch as well  :-X .

SCUMM for CPC, not sure. Z-machine - that should be doable without fancy new hardware-expansion or new OS - just good old CPC with lets say 128k RAM.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ||C|-|E|| on 22:55, 16 February 16
Z-Machine is cool indeed, but yes, a kind of PAWS for point and click would be just wonderful  :D . Then, we could talk about hairy tentacles  :-*
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: TFM on 23:13, 16 February 16
IMHO it would be better to do a clean rewrite supporting new hardware and using and OS which provides enough freedom and power to the application.  :)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ivarf on 00:20, 17 February 16
The comparison in the article is not very fair. The graphics is made for the C64 and its palette and because of this often plays to its strengths colour wise. Another thing is that pictures made for the Amstrad CPC can have bigger variation in the placement of colours, you can place any colour where you want. On the C64 this is not the case, not many colours can be placed close to another. The C64 has a fixed palette of 16 colours. The Amstrad CPC can show 16 colours from a palette of 27 colours. With tricks like palette switching it can show 27 colours on screen. It's easy to convert screens from the C64 to the Amstrad CPC. If you try to convert the other way you certainly do not get nearly as good results. The C64 graphics is definetly inferior to the Amstrad CPC
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Oliver Lindau on 01:41, 17 February 16
Even with the concept of the opportunity having more colors on the cpc it is also no 1:1 port from C64 to the CPC. There is only one grey, so it is necessary to alienate the colours to get a balanced look. Some of the pictures that are used for comparison got individual colourschemes in parts of the picture.

What seems a bit off to me in this thread is the argument that those C64 pictures only look better on that machine because they have been pixelled with the palette in mind. This is no quality statement, this is natural. If you are working with a specific palette you create shadows depending the luminance levels, creating an atmosphere with transitions that are a good match. Same with all kinds of pixelart, whatever machine has been used. And the selection represents this. Some of the pictures work really well, some look definitely better with CPC colours, some are kinda equal, some of them look worse.

I am missing some examples taken from artists like Mirage, Joe or Mermaid like these:

(http://artcity.bitfellas.org/gallery/m/mirage/mrspacman_sn.png)  (http://artcity.bitfellas.org/gallery/m/mirage/recollection2intro_sn.png)

(http://artcity.bitfellas.org/gallery/m/mermaid/11444_weeee_s.png)  (http://artcity.bitfellas.org/gallery/m/mermaid/73874.png)

(http://artcity.bitfellas.org/gallery/j/joe/27336_102354.png)  (http://artcity.bitfellas.org/gallery/j/joe/36634_disconnect.png)

or probably these two from my collection:

(http://artcity.bitfellas.org/gallery/v/veto/25092_roomwithaview_s_fb.png)  (http://artcity.bitfellas.org/gallery/v/veto/28888_eye_of_the_storm.png)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ivarf on 01:58, 17 February 16
What seems a bit off to me in this thread is the argument that those C64 pictures only look better on that machine because they have been pixelled with the palette in mind. This is no quality statement, this is natural. If you are working with a specific palette you create shadows depending the luminance levels, creating an atmosphere with transitions that are a good match. Same with all kinds of pixelart, whatever machine has been used. And the selection represents this. Some of the pictures work really well, some look definitely better with CPC colours, some are kinda equal, some of them look worse.

This is so true, but working from the start with another palette would very likely given a different picture to suit that palette.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Gryzor on 09:51, 17 February 16
What seems a bit off to me in this thread is the argument that those C64 pictures only look better on that machine because they have been pixelled with the palette in mind.


I don't think it was an argument as much as just a fact; the reasoning is, you can't really compare the conversions because the original was tailored to the strengths of the original platform. Not that tailoring them to the original platform is bad!
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ivarf on 10:01, 17 February 16
Take graphics from C64 is ease, so next challenge C+4
Carrion's Gfx - Software Details - Plus/4 World (http://plus4world.powweb.com/software/Carrions_Gfx)
Would that be hard to do on an Amstrad CPC? A real challenge would be to take graphics from the Amstrad + to the C64
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: 1024MAK on 13:24, 17 February 16

I don't think it was an argument as much as just a fact; the reasoning is, you can't really compare the conversions because the original was tailored to the strengths of the original platform. Not that tailoring them to the original platform is bad!
Yes, the best artists always use the medium that they have available for the best effect. Same with computer graphic art on limited systems like the 8 bit computers. Because each 8 bit computer has different colours and pixel resolutions available, comparing them is a bit like comparing different fruits. If an artist starts work on a high resolution display, which has a limited number of colours, they are likely to use dithering and other effects. But if they start work on a system that can display lots of colours and shades, but which does not have such a high pixel resolution, then they will use carefully selected colours to blend the colours to reduce the ragged lines caused by the lower resolution.

The selection of available colours also will have a bearing on what type of image or picture works best.

Mark
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Oliver Lindau on 13:40, 17 February 16
Would that be hard to do on an Amstrad CPC? A real challenge would be to take graphics from the Amstrad + to the C64
C16 colors are more like CPC+. c16 has 121 different colors that can be displayed simultaniously even in standard graphics modes (heavily restricted though)... not really on par with a CPC.

I don't think it was an argument as much as just a fact; the reasoning is, you can't really compare the conversions because the original was tailored to the strengths of the original platform. Not that tailoring them to the original platform is bad!
Agree.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: enthusi on 17:01, 17 February 16
Hi,

I am a coder, not an artist but I am well aware of the restrictions and palettes and color spaces involved.
In the end (and it seems the discussion has reached some sort of dead end?) you can only compare the system's bests against each other, not convert from one to the other and then judge.
May be I am missing something but is there some CPC pixel-art gallery that could be used? Then you can compare (different!) pictures and get a feeling (it will always be subjective anyway) which palette you like most.
This is under the assumption that artists on each system master their palette. My current impression is, that (pixel)art on C64 has evolved much farther than for CPC (yet).
But coming from the C64 and not the CPC, this might be biased.
There is amazing art with any palette (even 1bit, as (mostly) ZX Spectrum people demonstrate repeatedly) - it boils down to: who is producing art?
To me, the shades of C64 feel more natural and the Pepto-Palette that was used in the initial posting is simply the ONE realisation of C64-color-settings that is at least somewhat compatible with RGB color space.
It is too dim/weak by design. C64 was never built for RGB monitors.

I would love to see more original pixel-art for the CPC! It sure has potential. Same with code. The Point-and-click adventure was shortly mentioned. Do not wait for an engine to pop up and do not compare to C64 and evaluate possibly advantages, just go there and code one! Surely, the CPC community would highly appreciate it and so would I, actually.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ZbyniuR on 20:12, 17 February 16
@ivarf (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=47) - You wish, you should read more. True is C+4 can't display overscan bigger than 320x256 hires or 160x256 in multicolor or FLI. But in FLI mode can display normal MODE 0 from CPC without problem, with 121 colors, including all 27 colors from CPC.

Even old Atari XL can display MODE 0 from CPC quite good. Overscan 192x240 with 32 colors from 256, but this time some of them are not equal juicy like in CPC. (I remind CPC in mode 0 have overscan 192x272)

Both computers have bigger problems with MODE 1. 

Some FLI on C64:
Keyword Album: F/ FLI (http://c64pixels.com/main.php?g2_view=keyalbum.KeywordAlbum&g2_keyword=F/%20FLI)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: andycadley on 21:12, 17 February 16
@ivarf (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=47) - You wish, you should read more. True is C+4 can't display overscan bigger than 320x256 hires or 160x256 in multicolor or FLI. But in FLI mode can display normal MODE 0 from CPC without problem, with 121 colors, including all 27 colors from CPC.
My understanding is that's not quite true. The Plus/4 uses an attribute system which limits you to at most 4 colours within a character cell (4*8 low res "Mode 0" style pixels) where two of those colours are shared background colours (as opposed to just one shared colour on the C64). Also it's not quite as capable at doing FLI as the C64 was, you're limiting to reloading the colour map every two lines rather than every line.

So while it has the pixel resolution and the available colours, it isn't quite flexible enough that you could definitely display any CPC Mode 0 image without modification.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 21:29, 17 February 16
Basically C+4 and Atari8bit are better than CPC but inferior (somewhat) to Amstrad PLUS or even perhaps Thomson MO6/TO8...
 :)

So let's compare what can be (don't get me started on MSX2+ or TurboR...)

CPC and C64 are quite different, that's a fact.
But C64 is not "farely superior" concerning pure graphic capabilities...

of course you can use some Hardsprites to patch extra colours where they shouldn't be.
But really, CPC had 11 extra colours, so some hues are really better with it, picture can't really look Half grey, half too bleached...

the 3x3x3 RGB cube is the simplest yet "complete" RGB cube possible.
Also the multimode or overscan possibilities are nice, the Mode1 can actually be very well exploited as welll and really when limited to 4 colours on screen (without tricks), the full 4096 palette doesn't really matter that much.


C64 actually profits from having a very larger scene of talented peoples...
CPC scene has lazyasses like me.
 ;D

funnily, some japanese machines achieved some sort of 320x200x27 video mode with their 640x200x8
check NEC8008 machines, or paseopia7...

the 27 CPC palette was achieved through software management of the ditherings with the simple RGB2x2x2 basic palette in an hight rezolution mode... sort of.

(http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b418/trickless101/JESUSc.png)

basically it was the perfect palette for manga styled graphics.


to me perfect 8bit palette would be a 5x5x5 RGB cube (values, not bits).

(http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/8/80/R5G5B5_CPC_complete_ditherings.png)
oh course many colours would be a waste when in the bright side... but this still let a lot of possibility : the interior 3x3x3 cube is composed of Greyish things, the exterior are RGB things good on the dark, redundant on the bright, well it is an RGB cube anyway...
But you get the proper amount of whatever you need with simple 8bit video modes like CPC's ones.

or the Atari ST 512 colours palette tooo.

4096 is really the max that an 8bit computer should get anyway, its main advantage being that the 16 colours mode can get nice full 16 inks monocolours gradiants..

Would almost be achievable (sort of) with a CPC and a 16 colour Mode1... or even an 8 colour Mode1, or an 8 colour Mode2...

Because let's be honnest... 8bit machines are not supposed to be 16/32/64 bit powerhouses...
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Oliver Lindau on 22:46, 17 February 16
CPC and C64 are quite different, that's a fact.
But C64 is not "farely superior" concerning pure graphic capabilities...
They are totally different in a pixellers point of view.

The graphic capabilities of the CPC feel like a 16bit system to me - with lower resolution. No special restrictions, straight forward gfx mode specifications, flexible palettes with clearly defined colours. Overall super easy to learn.

C64 is more a system for explorers and Sudoku-lovers. Many differently graphics modes, each with its own restriction rules. Except standard MultiColor mode not really easy for beginners, but the system rewards precision and modesty. And thanks to pixel-shifting, underlay-sprites and a very lively demoscene there is constant evolution going on here.


Actually I do not understand why there are not more fullscreen graphics releases nowadays for the CPC. I am running a column in the German papermag 'Return' called "Pixelkunst" (pixel art) which presents 8bit fullscreen pictures (usually homebrew) with changing subjects. Each time when I am searching for adequate CPC artworks it feels like browsing a steppe compared to C64, Atari 8bit or ZX Spectrum.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 23:51, 17 February 16
There are few fullscreen production on CPC because theree are few production on CPC/PLUS...

Also what do you call fullscreen ?

= a one screen picture/artwork ?
= the fact you draw where there is a border supposed to be on a real device with a real monitor ?

on CPC : "fullscreen" (also called overscan) refers to the use of the border as display zone. It is a trick typical to CPC and not always easily possible on other 8bit or even 16bit systems (unless you have a monitor that can modify/magnify the picture)

last year's Reset Party produced a few fulll screens or somewhat fullscreens in full screen.

I'll repost them then :

(http://mag.mo5.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/mammouth-reset20.png)

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=12034&slot=2&part=A&type=.png)
the black column on the right must be some emulation issue... it covers the full screen on real machine.

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=12030&slot=2&part=A&type=.png)
this one is vertical full-screen... no need to always cover all the screen.

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=11539&slot=2&part=A&type=.png)
cartoonish and french, but full screen.

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=12534&slot=2&part=A&type=.png)
fullscreen again, a good fun exemple of the power of Mode1 and ditherings.


(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcplus&fiche=7392&slot=1&part=A&type=.png)
this one is mine and for Amstrad PLUS. and it is fullscreen.

(http://img110.xooimage.com/files/2/c/a/bubbles-of-the-mind-final-4bd3e29.png)
modest prod from me, not really fullscreen but clearly bigger than the 320x200 "normal" setting... more like approximate 360x256

And so on I guess.

Full screen is not always used for game's intro page because it would use 2x16K banks and many game makers still aim at 464 specs aka the 64k or doom with tape...

Also when you port graphics from other systems, you cannot easily turn 320x200 sized things (or even 256x192 size) into 384x272 unless you redo almost everything.

Some composition are great with a border too.
(http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/2/22/Jill_lawson-2-tutmask.png)
The trick is to not get the square/rectangle border actially visible so composition must have a finish, an object floating in darkness...
(Also see Antiriad loading screen for CPC)
This is quite often used for C64 and others too...

(http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11634.0;attach=17961;image)
(http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11634.0;attach=17963;image)

Titus would put fullscreen intro pages on some of their GX4000 games as well...

There are many slideshows in overscan... not always great original pixel arts (often Photo slideshows, digitalised pictures and so on).

And Demoscene would quite often pulls on overscan somewhat (check the Batman Demo... you would very rarely get the border displayed)

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=12062&slot=2&part=A&type=.png)

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcplus&fiche=12461&slot=2&part=A&type=.png)

Those can also be somewhat optimised for greenscreens sometimes...
(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=8845&slot=2&part=A&type=.png&green=1)

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=7826&slot=3&part=A&type=.png)
(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=7826&slot=3&part=A&type=.png&green=1)

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=8406&slot=6&part=A&type=.png)
(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=8406&slot=6&part=A&type=.png&green=1)


(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=8582&slot=3&part=A&type=.png)

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=8305&slot=3&part=A&type=.png)

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=12535&slot=2&part=A&type=.png)

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=12528&slot=2&part=A&type=.png)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ukmarkh on 23:54, 17 February 16
Nobody seriously believes that the C64 had better colours or graphics than the CPC. This topic is stupid, every example i've seen just solidifies this even more.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 00:06, 18 February 16
Basically C64 just has more talented artists, some of them being very talented... that's all a matter of quantity.
 :picard:


but really... real life world is not only greys and browns...

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6224/6311853600_7bb5195272_b.jpg)
(http://photographyheat.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Colorful-Landscapes-.jpg)

(ok these may have been a bit shopped... still...)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 00:41, 18 February 16
come on, no need to talk like that...  ::)

(http://i.imgur.com/WkZ3I.png)

the thing is that all "long" ramps would often need some patches of Grey.
it is a trick of "screw colours I go for theoric long ramps and compose my picture as if I had a VGA"... basically it would look better in real monochrome on a CPC with green monitor...

(http://cpc.sylvestre.org/projets/prod/ghernandez_nicolas3.png)

here courtesy of Supersly's marvellous website "les sucres en morceau" (sugars in bits).
[attachimg=1]
Amstrad CPC - Couleurs (1 - Les couleurs du CPC) (http://cpc.sylvestre.org/technique/technique_coul1.html)
(in french, sorry...)

On CPC we have to do the exact contrary and would use the hybrid colours : lime, seagreen, orange, Mauve, Purple, sky blue... in order to get some ramps with hue shift.

otherwise you have the straight monocolour ramps that can have 3 values :
=dark
= bright (actually medium)
= pastel (pastel red is called pink)

because CPC palette is a minimalistic yet "complete" RGB cube, the "inner cubes" are only one grey.

(http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/e/ee/Cubic_palette1.png)

so you don't have greyed colours as on bigger RGB cubes.

EGA (4x4x4) has an inner cube of 2x2x2 including 2 greys and 6 greyed colours.

a 5x5x5 RGB cube would have a inner 3x3x3cube of 3 greys and 24 greyed colours... and so on.


(http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/5/51/Mire_CPC.png)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ukmarkh on 00:46, 18 February 16
come on, no need to talk like that...  ::)

(http://i.imgur.com/WkZ3I.png)


That colour palette has just made me vomit! Sure, the SID is superior (although some CPC users disagree), it has amazing hardware scrolling, but I'm not convinced about the sprite capabilities. That's the C64 in nutshell, I should know, we owned both C64 and amstrad growing up. 
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Shaun M. Neary on 00:54, 18 February 16
While I know nothing about the hardware end of things... but the C64 palette just made it's graphics look so drab.
If it was around today, it would be the bad instagram filter of the 8bit machines.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MaV on 01:17, 18 February 16
but really... real life world is not only greys and browns...
It certainly is now where I live!

Also:
(https://nylonliving.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/normandie.jpg)
(http://a398.idata.over-blog.com/1/71/26/12/postcard-3/467---Meme-pas-froid--.jpg)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/97/4c/f0/974cf036a0cdc4156caaab5eabdea911.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/12/29/article-0-0C99EB5E000005DC-264_634x423.jpg)



Here's grey and brown for you:
(http://www.schwarzkopf.at/content/dam/sk/de/home/styling/fuer_maenner/maennerfrisuren-salz-und-pfeffer/neu_maennerfrisuren_1_420x540.jpg)


 You southeners with 50 weeks of sun per year! Tsk, tsk, tsk! :P


Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 01:34, 18 February 16
Well, we had 2 days of cold, wind and some rain... but it is getting better. Still not below 0°



lets think.

[attachimg=1]
(http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11634.0;attach=17957;image)
(http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/other-retro/proof-that-the-commodre-64-palette-is-far-superior-to-the-amstrad-cpc/?action=dlattach;attach=17935;image)

Really the C64 is not the most close version either to the original... the one I re-coloured seems a bit more close, well it would need some extra job but it shows a different strategy than the straight conversion with palette swap only.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Oliver Lindau on 01:35, 18 February 16
@MacDeath (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=221) Thanks for the screenshots. The main issue I have usually that there is a special subject (like 'Designer's Stuff', 'Year 1984' or whatever) and mostly it is like one or two CPC artworks and dozens on other machines. I refuse any pictures that are converts or could be specified as straight copies (it is not about copyright issues, but copied references are not representing creativity imo. depends on the subject though).


There have been shown some really awesome artworks already, i.e. works by Rexbeng, Jill Lawson, Marc K Jones, Stickman or Paulbrk.


But please. Stop this grey/brown-bashing and the saturation. Check out the graphics from the top CSDb artists and you will see that they do not put all of their work in brown-ish tones. It is a very dominant combination in the C64 world because yellow/red/brown cover all luma levels in the palette, but it is similar to the blue or purple on the CPC to compensate the lack of grey. And it is not the only working combination of colours.


And that low saturation level is a digital myth thanks to the RGB color range that does not cover the C64 video output (every person that is manufacturing svideo-cables can tell). It is still less saturated than CPC but way more vivid and bright like the usual VICE screenshots.

I met Made two years ago at the Revision demoparty while he was fighting with the todays common PEPTO palette (that is this RGB-basis version of C64-colours). And it was beyond his imagination why this palette is so popular. I showed him graphics on my C128D which monitor was adjusted by using an Amiga and he could not believe the difference. This is also what every oldschool pixel artist say that were used to work in the 80ies in the games industry. What you are watching on an emulator are not the same thing what you will see on a well adjusted commodore monitor. Quoting Robin Levy (who was the pixel artist in many games like Armalyte, Last Ninja 3, Hawkeye) when he saw PEPTO screenshots from his own work: "WTF is that??? my c64 never looked like that!"... I could not find better words for this.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 01:50, 18 February 16
yeah, basically "pixel art" was just called computer graphics and the "pixels" were never squares with sharp angles, well limited sides and regularly coloured flat surface.

nowadays, the youth would think we were looking at regular small floor tiles mosaics that could somewhat change colours...
 :doh:


I totally agree with the thing on "original artworks" and not jsut convertions or tracing.
But this is where CPC doesn't have the upper hand.
Many many many more sceners on c64.
So basically more are supposed to provide original artworks.

Hence the gape in the mass of content.

Would be interesting if some C64 artist actually tried to perform on CPC.
Not quite sure they would all manage to succeed with it.
To be too specialised can be tricky when you try to break the habits.

yeah this greyish thing.

Well, the mood of the topic is "8bitwar with every lowblows" so that's it.
(http://s.kaskus.id/r480x480/images/fjb/2015/09/20/koleksi_game_dos_jadul_untuk_nostalgia_5_dvd_isi_3000_judul_collectors_edition_333076_1442760370.jpg)
What would you expect with such a title of topic at CPCwiki's forum...  ;)

CPC palette or graphics wouldn't always look oversaturated if the screen was a bit adjusted and if the graphic artist would really work his palette.
Many games were ports from other systems with cheap work for both pixels or palette.

But when it was good it was good.

Should also remember that perhaps most users in some countries would have a basic TV set, not the high tech Commodore monitor that may have more settings options than a VGA screen...
Commodore monitors (http://gona.mactar.hu/Commodore/monitor/Commodore_monitors_by_model_number.html)

Here in France the Atari 2600 could only display 8 colours... yeah really...
List of video game console palettes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_game_console_palettes#Atari_2600)
SECAM... USA faield at it...



BTW... it could be great to put this topic into another level...
by getting 2 machines beside, trying to display the same artworks.

But of course not just lazy palette swaps with big red skin...
perhaps with different screen settings as well so we could compare at last.
Could be a great Web article (with photos) or video... could even be organized at some demoparty perhaps with enough preparation.

Quote
which monitor was adjusted by using an Amiga
how do you do that , what is this magic ?
any link ?

Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ukmarkh on 01:51, 18 February 16
I don't buy any of what you've just said. Forget the C128, you said C64?


I grew up with a C64 and monitor, as well as an amstrad CPC, with colour monitor, there's a difference, everyone I knew could see it, but you can't.


The CPC is superior in this department, and no amount of words or images will change that opinion, as I've looked at thousands of images and compared both, including demo's.


That's not to suggest the C64 is bad, far from it, it ruled supreme in practically every other area, especially gaming. 


 
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Oliver Lindau on 03:20, 18 February 16

@ukmarkh (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=34)
Well, actually I worked in the games industry for some years. Common job was doing 8bit ports those days. So in my office I got an Amiga and a 1084s monitor which was capable of RGB and the C64 chroma/luma signal. And right after adjusting it for the Amiga - switching to C64 (the 1084s has a button for that) the colours look bright and colourful - as if VICE emulator is set to 1.9 saturation. On a monitor that was manufactured by Commodore. Still got such a setup here and that is what I am referring to.


Btw C128 has the same colours as the C64 revisions built from about 1985. Previous series had 4 instead of 5 luma levels in the palette. C128 has RGB support, but only by using the VDC chip but not the VIC. The video output from the C64/128 did not even match standard PAL specifications (a friend of mine who is into this things specified them as PAL-Pro), so the the colours yellow and white are not covered by the RGB colour range. That's what the guy who generated the PEPTO palette did: Colour reduction till they match RGB. Kinda similar to processing graphics between RGB and CMYK.


And actually those were times where everybody was messing with front knobs on their TV and those low settings are also super-awesome for creating skin tones or Boris-Vallejo-Covers. But that was definitely not common sense, which came up in a massive diversity of palettes.

IMO neither C64 or CPC palettes are superior. Each has advantages and disadvantages, both have clearly recognizable colourschemes and none of them is suitably for every kind of graphics.


@MacDeath (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=221)
Ehm... screenshots. Like those? I do not own a professional camera (tends a bit to blue undertone), but guess this is enough to see the difference.

(http://vetodrom.com/media/ctest/eye.png)

(http://vetodrom.com/media/ctest/tenderized.png)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: andycadley on 10:24, 18 February 16
The Vice palette is, I think, a more realistic representation of what the C64 output looks like when you plugged it into the family telly, which was probably the most common setup. Sure you could tweak the colour settings to make it look better, but then you'd get a clip round the ear from your mum when she wanted to watch Coronation Street and everyone looked like they'd been in some horrible tanning salon accident.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: enthusi on 12:06, 18 February 16
The Vice palette is, I think, a more realistic representation of what the C64 output looks like when you plugged it into the family telly, which was probably the most common setup.

No ;-)
Vice used to be based on pepto because in RGB space, those are at least correct (technically).
Vice has dedicated controls to set saturation-levels. Back then, I prefered rather darkish colors, but most friends had them similar to what veto posted.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Oliver Lindau on 13:55, 18 February 16
@andycadley (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=327): VICE is also a compromise and is based on PEPTO too btw. And speaking of C64pixels which is the source for the initial comparison screenshots here is based on it is the same thing with slightly more saturated colours than VICE. When Enthusi and I started the c64pixels-project we needed something in between this vast range of colour settings. As far as you are living in that microverse on a single website this works but still does not represent the outside world and is no solid basis for 1:1 comparisons with machines that are based on different video standards.

You assume that VICE represents most common setup. Relied on what basis? There was no existing reference. It was not unlikely that people were adjusting the visuals by using a FuBK test pattern without knowing how Commodore specified them (try this with CPC colours - this method is just absurd). Each monitor came up with their own factory settings and every person was messing up with them on top.

My own approach using the Amiga for calibrating is also just one way to go. It is special in a way, because it was the first Commodore computer that came up with the whole RGB spectrum in 4bit colourdepth. So you get an idea about the manufacturers video settings. But this does not replace history how kids and artists dealed with that.

What we have now is a system, where you need a resistor on video cables luma when you like to watch the original colours on todays common video hardware. And there is PEPTO, whose approach to give a physical comprohensible translation here. That combination already means that you have to adjust the video settings afterwards.



PS - referring to Enthusi: veto is my scene handle.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ukmarkh on 14:14, 18 February 16
@ukmarkh (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=34)

IMO neither C64 or CPC palettes are superior. Each has advantages and disadvantages, both have clearly recognizable colourschemes and none of them is suitably for every kind of graphics.



If you'd have said the above, instead of "Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC" You might not have lost your audience.


Whoever started this thread, can't even spell Commodore, so forgive me for not taking it seriously from the start. 
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: invent on 14:24, 18 February 16
I'm enjoying this thread a lot and appreciate everyone's thoughts and experience.


I while possibly more biased on the Amstrads more saturated colours, do enjoy working with the C64 palette and have discovered that's it's quite a nice palette to work with, of course my experimentation with the ZX Spectrum is more challenging.


The Last UFO (Amstrad game)
Mig n Ziggy (Amiga concept using C64 palette)


P.S. Yes The Last UFO has progressed more :)




Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ivarf on 14:26, 18 February 16
come on, no need to talk like that...  ::)

(http://i.imgur.com/WkZ3I.png)

MacDeath, will you stop trolling. There is no way a colour palette can look so bad. There must have been a design fault or a circuit that needs repair.









Below is a palette my 2 year old created, maybe not up to pepto standard, but he is quite happy with it:
(http://i.imgur.com/Y7Dzywb.jpg)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ukmarkh on 14:32, 18 February 16

P.S. Yes The Last UFO has progressed more :)


Good lad, this looks like a candidate for amstrad game of the year! It looks like the sort of game that would benefit from a bit of screen shaking, as seen in Savage, when you take a hit or something big enters the screen.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: andycadley on 23:30, 18 February 16
You assume that VICE represents most common setup. Relied on what basis? There was no existing reference. It was not unlikely that people were adjusting the visuals by using a FuBK test pattern without knowing how Commodore specified them (try this with CPC colours - this method is just absurd). Each monitor came up with their own factory settings and every person was messing up with them on top.
Based on nothing more than it looks roughly like what most C64 machines looked like when I saw them back in the day. Most users didn't have colour calibrated monitors or even dedicated displays, they'd just get plugged directly into the family telly and wouldn't mess with the brightness/colour settings because they mostly needed the TV to look right when the family went back to watching their shows without excessive fiddling again.

Obviously none of them can be entirely "correct" as there was no one calibrated setting, but I seriously doubt more than a few C64 users ever went to anything like the lengths you're suggesting.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ukmarkh on 23:45, 18 February 16
Every person I know, who owned a C64, ran it through either a shitty black and white portable, colour portable or through the family T.V. It was and still is, widely acceptable, that the C64 colour palette was a bit shit! Those pictures presented in a few posts earlier, looked good, but slightly washed out.   
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Oliver Lindau on 00:13, 19 February 16
@andycadley (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=327)
You can be sure that there was a wide, wide range of colour settings out there. One rather controversial project that is going on in the C64 world is is the community colours project by P1x3l.net. Controversial because of its approach creating a palette by collecting subjective user palettes and building an avarage value. Personally I am also mixed about the current status there because the colours are even more saturated than my approach (guess that people with unique settings are more motivated in partitipating than those who don't touch anything). I believe more in my own experiences and talks with people that were active in the 80ies and 90ies, which were mostly in the games industry and hardware nerds. And the usual conclusion is that there is no universal palette that does justice to all c64 setups and its graphics artists.



@ukmarkh (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=34)
yes. The TV out is a league of its own including extreme black bleed and a desaturation effect by using big white areas. Fun fact is that I used two different screens in the early 90ies (no joke) one low saturated TV and the more saturated monitor. Still do using PEPTO instead of a telly nowadays.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ||C|-|E|| on 00:46, 19 February 16
I am quite impressed with this image.

[attachimg=1]

Could anyone enlighten me about how it was done? If there was a semi-automatic way to do this some games in Mode 1, like our adventure, could have truly amazing graphics in the future.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: 1024MAK on 01:12, 19 February 16
This thread appears to be going in circles now...


The debate about what the correct colours for the C64 are, is about much use as debating how pink or not, "white" people's skin should be on a 1980's colour TVs (what your preferred settings were for contrast, brightness and colour on the TV controls). I remember one nan liked the skin to be pinkish, while my Mum and Dad, and my other nan preferred a whiter colour.

So to be clear, IMHO any domestic composite TV system (including S-Video) does not have calibrated colours, saturation levels, or properly configured grey scales.

And also, for the record, analogue RGB also is not a fully calibrated system.

Mark
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Oliver Lindau on 01:18, 19 February 16
@||C|-|E|| (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1447)
Not sure what tools Rexbeng uses. In Grafx2 there is a effect called 'Sieve' that can draw with dithered patterns. Choose 'FX' and 'Sieve' - right click on Sieve and open the dither-design dialog. All tools work with the chosen foreground and background colour.

@1024MAK (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1522)
Of course RGB is no fully calibrated standard. Still 16bit systems were definitely more practical for adjusting video systems than a more or less random 16 colour palette. But what you are saying is exactly what I mean. Those were analogue times. Everyone did what he thought was right with their screen. And from that point pictures also look different on each screen and leads to many individual palettes...
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Fessor on 11:39, 19 February 16
A true NTSC-System...
Even in PAL-Region it has Never The Same Color...
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: invent on 14:15, 19 February 16
I am quite impressed with this image.

(Attachment Link)

Could anyone enlighten me about how it was done? If there was a semi-automatic way to do this some games in Mode 1, like our adventure, could have truly amazing graphics in the future.


Hi ||C|-|E||, zooming into the image gives some clues, custom dithering and particular colours next to each other. While I can't think of an automatic way, if I was going to recreate this effect I would create custom patterns in Photoshop for example and fill in solid areas with the pattern (colour shade). Would need to create a set of patterns ranging in tone or spectrum of colours.  Look like an interesting challenge.  Very interesting technique which works best using primary colours for greatest range in colour spectrum if that's your intention (Red, Green , Blue and Black)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0oxA8iO67xM/VscFxciAWxI/AAAAAAAAC3A/AyglY0nvhF0/s640/Dither_01.png)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: 1024MAK on 14:19, 19 February 16
A true NTSC-System...
Even in PAL-Region it has Never The Same Color...
Never Twice Same Color...
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: 1024MAK on 14:24, 19 February 16
Also, keep in mind that the 625 line system can use either PAL or NTSC colour encoding.
And the U.S. 525 line system can also use either PAL or NTSC colour encoding.
See Broadcast television systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_television_systems)

Mark
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ||C|-|E|| on 16:18, 19 February 16

Hi ||C|-|E||, zooming into the image gives some clues, custom dithering and particular colours next to each other. While I can't think of an automatic way, if I was going to recreate this effect I would create custom patterns in Photoshop for example and fill in solid areas with the pattern (colour shade). Would need to create a set of patterns ranging in tone or spectrum of colours.  Look like an interesting challenge.  Very interesting technique which works best using primary colours for greatest range in colour spectrum if that's your intention (Red, Green , Blue and Black)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0oxA8iO67xM/VscFxciAWxI/AAAAAAAAC3A/AyglY0nvhF0/s640/Dither_01.png)

I was thinking a little bit about that and I think that it should be possible to implement an automatic or semi-automatic conversion with a little bit of effort. It would be necessary to create a database with all the virtual colors you can get using dithering and then create a palette from it. Later, you would use that palette to draw your images using tiles of 2x2 pixels. Finally, the application would convert those patches to the dithered version and some manual adjustment would be required to remove the blocky aspect. The program could actually be more sophisticate and try to remove the blockiness by itself. In this case, you would draw the image in a normal way using the custom palette, then it would be converted to a blocky image made of tiles of 2x2 pixels, this image would be dithered automatically and, finally, we could refine it trying something like a Monte Carlo approach until we find the best correlation with the original thing you drew. Huum... I am probably saying just a bunch of stupid things  :picard:
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ZbyniuR on 22:31, 19 February 16
Do you remember OverPixel ?  What is possible in 4 colors only.
JavaCPC Paint Overpixel effect (MODE 1, 4 colours) (http://cpc-live.com/overpixel/)
Compress makes more colors but in reality there are only 4 CMYK colors mixed like pixels in printer.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 23:52, 19 February 16
But you can't do that on speccy or C64 because it needs to have more than 2 colours around themselves in small pixels...
 :D

dithering is really important.


Also : NSFW
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: invent on 01:03, 20 February 16
Further experimenting with the 4 colour palette.
The 8 colour one below the original is only for reference (trying to use the full range of colour from the Amstrad palette, then reducing it down)



(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-eju46Q1s9QA/VsecsoQF3gI/AAAAAAAAC3U/wIWUHMRVr0s/s1600/AMSTRAD_4colour_Test.png)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Oliver Lindau on 08:25, 20 February 16
@MacDeath (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=221)
Except using underlay sprite graphics modes on the C64... those are based on HiRes bitmap.
... but those are not appropiate for games. They need way too much ram and rastertime for this.
(http://artcity.bitfellas.org/gallery/j/joe/15869_(2009-06-30-07-10)-machine-d-v12-final.png) (http://artcity.bitfellas.org/gallery/e/electric/11157_self_portrait.gif)
(http://c64pixels.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=11428) (http://c64pixels.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=12157)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: arnoldemu on 12:25, 20 February 16
I'm enjoying reading this thread :)

In the same way that some c64 pictures use sprites and heavy cpu use for display, we can also do the same on CPC :)

Sylvestre does a good job of investigating CPC possibilites:

Amstrad CPC - Les Sucres en Morceaux (http://cpc.sylvestre.org/)

nice pictures here:
Les Sucres en Morceaux - Demos en Sucre sur Amstrad CPC (http://cpc.sylvestre.org/projets/projets_demo-sm.html)

Mode 5 can be used on cpc and that uses lots of cpu time. (it's mode 1, but with palette changes many times per line)

Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Oliver Lindau on 14:34, 20 February 16
Mode 5 can be used on cpc and that uses lots of cpu time. (it's mode 1, but with palette changes many times per line)
That sounds similar to C64 NUFLI. Atari 8Bit has something like that too called Graph2Font, though normally the gfx artists use low resolution for that mode.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 01:30, 21 February 16
Quote
Except using underlay sprite graphics modes on the C64... those are based on HiRes bitmap.
... but those are not appropiate for games. They need way too much ram and rastertime for this.
yes, you can "patch" the graphics with the hardsprites to add extra colours* where attributes wouldn't allow it.

But while CPC has far less colours on screen in Mode1, you cannnot apply Hardsprites on the whole screen I guess... especially in 384x256... (but Sprites can add graphic surface on the border, can't they ?)
otherwise, c64 sprites can be multiplexed so you can apply them on the whole screen height... this would get the whole pictures (+ the code for it) being far more heavy than the common 320x200+attributes.


anyway we are talking about pure graphic screens, not games...


The "mammouth" picture uses a lot of er... interuptions ? in order to manage some sort of colour change on the same line.
very CPU intense and need clever timing but can quite work for pure graphics.
Easier on PLUS and can be Sprite patched as well..

But still usable on simple CPC too actually.



yes, Supersly is one of Amstrad's graphical scientist and expermimental wizard.



* I meant extra brown and grey, of course...  :P


Anyway this thread needs more pictures...
Pic or it doesn't exist...

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=429&slot=1&part=A&type=.png)

(http://cpc.sylvestre.org/musee/mode1m_jeuxecrans/dragon_ninja.png)

(http://cpc.sylvestre.org/musee/mode1m_jeuxecrans/rambo3.png)

(http://www.demoscene.nl/pouet/cga1.png)
oops lol this is CGA graphics...  ;D

Seriously CGA graphics when done well could be quite nice.
Basically a shame CPC had more Spectrum graphics than real CGA graphics... and in 320x200x4... CPC is quite a superior CGA.
 ::)

slight mockup with some added rasters...
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Oliver Lindau on 02:50, 21 February 16
@MacDeath (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=221)
NUFLI uses multiplexed x-stretched hardware sprites to cover the whole screen. Almost - because is uses FLI and on C64 the first 24 pixels cause something called FLI-bug, which means that colours cannot freely defined here and two sprites are used to cover this area. By definition this means that the last 8 pixels each line are bitmap-only. To make things more complicated - colours are split for the bitmap each regular line and for the sprites each irregular line.
Up and low border sprites are still possible in theory but haven't been seen in real life yet.

Border sprites is a similar concept, but esp side borders are tricky codewise. It is possible to get a similar effect like overscan pictures on the CPC, but actually it is playing with reduction. The demo Deus Ex Machina starts with a picture that is an interlaced fullscreen ifli covering the whole border, here it was the flicker that compensates stretched sprites. In others details are reduced to the 8-sprite-limitation per line. Some pictures implement rasterbar-effects to fill the gaps.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodore 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: SuTeKH/Epyteor on 11:27, 21 February 16
(http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11634.0;attach=18032;image)

... in a .dsk!


Title: Re: Proof that the Commodore 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: arnoldemu on 12:10, 21 February 16
It is true that for both machines the "default modes" are expanded with various techniques (rasters, sprites, overscan, interlace) to achieve much better images.

I think what is sad is there are much less people making graphics on CPC compared to C64.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: arnoldemu on 12:13, 21 February 16
Border sprites is a similar concept, but esp side borders are tricky codewise. It is possible to get a similar effect like overscan pictures on the CPC, but actually it is playing with reduction. The demo Deus Ex Machina starts with a picture that is an interlaced fullscreen ifli covering the whole border, here it was the flicker that compensates stretched sprites. In others details are reduced to the 8-sprite-limitation per line. Some pictures implement rasterbar-effects to fill the gaps.
@Oliver Lindau (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1671):

Is it true that on c64 to "open the borders" you must do something every line (just like on Atari ST with it's 50/60hz switch to open borders)?

I think in this respect the cpc is easier, because overscan be done with no cpu time, but at the expense of 22KB of RAM used for the display.


Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 23:57, 21 February 16
Quote
... in a .dsk!
thx for the attention but I guess it could be done a bit betterly, I mean the OCEAN logo could be more well done...
Can someone post it photographied from a real Hardware ?
or post the two versions ? would be great to compare...

the dude at ocean did quite an impressive job on this one and "(enter the) DragonNinja feat. Bruce almighty...

But as often, those intro pages wee limited, could really include some rasters of even bigger screen... damn 64k Tape configs...

Quote
I think in this respect the cpc is easier, because overscan be done with no cpu time, but at the expense of 22KB of RAM used for the display.
overscan/full screen on CPC is basically a hidden feature that manufacturer wasn't even aware of...
And yeah it can use quite a huge lot of RAM then...
22k ? may be something like 24k actually, if you consider 192x256x16...  that's 4x time what a monocolour screen on speccy would weight if you don't use attributes...
funnily many CPC games were in 256x192... but in Mode1.  :'(
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 02:19, 22 February 16
I'm loving the pictures and mockups and tweaks.


Big differences between loading screens and demo art, in my opinion. The latter can abuse everything because it can.


The former, well, it's a loading screen, so you can't rewrite the loading screen memory with game data without glitches or that final loading section blanking the screen. In addition, you don't have the freedom of CPU time, as CPU is used for loading and processing tape/disc data.


Which is why I think a loading screen using a few rasters is a decent achievement, even if it's not that insane MODE 5.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Apollo on 07:02, 22 February 16
While I have no quarrel with C64 but I think CPC is superior if used to the same extend as the C64. On the C64 it is much more common to use all kind of tricks to enhance it graphic capabilities while on the CPC it is very common to use the standard modes as they are.
So in the end most images on CPC are not as good as on the C64 because of lack of coding tricks used while there are plenty available and there are MUCH more GFX creators with much higher competition pressure in the C64 scene then it is on the CPC.

As example of an image with some code trickery on the CPC I want to show just this one from Kvety/LesSucresEnMorceaux :
[attach=1]
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 20:39, 22 February 16
Quote
The former, well, it's a loading screen, so you can't rewrite the loading screen memory with game data without glitches or that final loading section blanking the screen. In addition, you don't have the freedom of CPU time, as CPU is used for loading and processing tape/disc data.
Most of this issue came from having games loading via Tapes... seriously with a disk, it doesn't quite matter to use  30-45 more seconds to load while displaying some rater effects.

also a game who will use 128K and Double buffering can quite use one bank or a bit more for a really fancy loading screen during... loading.


but some Amstrad loading screens were really well well done when they weren't just cheap ports from other systems.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Grim on 21:45, 22 February 16
seriously with a disk, it doesn't quite matter to use  30-45 more seconds to load while displaying some rater effects.
It's not really like the FDC/FDD will magically slow-down to accommodate some spare CPU cycles for "some raster effects". It's a little bit more complicated than that and a lot of work just for showing off once for a few seconds.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: GOB on 00:01, 23 February 16
(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcplus&fiche=7408&slot=3&part=A&type=.png)

And some colours :) Only cpc+ make it possible !!! :)

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcplus&fiche=7408&slot=4&part=A&type=.png)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 00:45, 03 March 16
So I guess the thread is dead ?

Fanboyz are still camping their positions (me first) but it was a good fight once again...


And yep c64 has a shitton of awesome pixelartists to begin with...


Wish they would try more often at Pixel joint...

(http://pixeljoint.com/files/icons/full/cpcmockup.png)

Amstrad CPC mockup @ PixelJoint.com (http://pixeljoint.com/pixelart/101719.htm)


I guess they tried once, long time ago...
Pixel Joint Forum: CHALLENGE 3/3/2008: Wide Pixels (http://pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6132)
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: HAL 6128 on 09:45, 03 March 16
Very nice Image. Almost a 3D effect from back to foreground, somekind of depth!! :o
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Bytebreaker on 13:01, 03 March 16
I wonder if somebody has a collection of bin files with ripped beautiful Amstrad pictures (including the ones shown in this thread)?
Ofcourse we can watch them on our Windows PC in the html view of the forum. But wouldn't it be nice to see them on original hardware, too?


Edit:


It should be no problem to make a slideshow of the best pictures with a little basic program and cram a dsk full with pics.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Kris on 14:38, 03 March 16
Actually, one of the best picture on CPC old remains the "mammouth" by Barjack for drawing & Grim for the split raster coding:


reset 20 - mammouth &copy _public_domain_ (2015) (http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=12035)

Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 19:49, 03 March 16
good question, is there even an application to product some diaporama disks ? with possible inclusion of things with tricks or browser options ?
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 01:51, 04 March 16

Wish they would try more often at Pixel joint...

(http://pixeljoint.com/files/icons/full/cpcmockup.png)

Amstrad CPC mockup @ PixelJoint.com (http://pixeljoint.com/pixelart/101719.htm)


Amazing use of colours here, good separation of different aspects (blue background and leafy decoration (1 shared colour, dark on leaves, highlight on background, works very well)), and the red/greenred/orange/yellow colour ramp. Probably the foreground grass-on-rocks shouldn't be there as it confuses the leafy decoration you can walk in front of with the solid rock, but it's definitely not a big issue. Also the best plum gfx on the CPC so far.
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: MacDeath on 02:05, 04 March 16
love the use of the "cold green" gradiant, with dark cyan and sea green... this reflects the blue of the background onto the foliage. That's how you use the hybrid colours...
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: invent on 08:00, 09 April 16
Hello Everyone :)


I thought I would share another technique that might be useful in generating dither automatically with fixed colour palettes in Mode 0 (16) or Mode 1 (4).


Rediscovered a very interesting Photoshop file that has different effects layers that basically converted any greyscale image into 4 or 16 colours depending on the mode your using.


Firstly go visit Dan Fesslers blog (http://danfessler.com/blog/hd-index-painting-in-photoshop) on HD Index Patterns it will better explain the concept.


(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-eTA97lYP2dM/VwiKUSwQsQI/AAAAAAAAC7k/1JdVEGNbNr8qFe0y77YIz685WCXy_pEKA/s640/Screen%2BShot%2B2016-04-09%2Bat%2B2.46.33%2Bpm.png)


The example Gradient Maps for Mode 0 (16 colours) and Mode 1 (4 colours)


(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-y0l6g6IEybU/VwiMGkKan5I/AAAAAAAAC7w/h1zRugsiwEEYStsOez3mW7FIJXl0rG8DQ/s1600/GradientMaps.png)



Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: invent on 07:26, 11 April 16

One last test.


Mode 1, (4 colours)  This photoshop file is based off Dan's Photoshop file but I have edited the gradient ramp. 
If you use Photoshop use the greyscale gradient at the top of the page to draw/shade with and it will automatically create the dithered pattern in realtime.


I haven't found (yet) a better dither layer than what Dan has come up with, but if you do you would have potentially more dither patterns.


(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2wCvOOUK6Eo/Vwsj3Yds_aI/AAAAAAAAC8Q/4AKxzdcWn5gPgdNmiZOv3m9_6NGQs6vlA/s640/RGB_Amstrad_invent.png)

For anyone who would like to try this, here is the Photoshop (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7ztLbj56N25MHhnZjJjbDlLV0E) file.



Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: ||C|-|E|| on 22:37, 11 April 16
This is extremely interesting! I will shortly have a look a it, thank you!!  :D :D
Title: Re: Proof that the Commodre 64 palette is far superior to the Amstrad CPC.
Post by: Gryzor on 17:07, 12 April 16
I'm not trained enough to see the differences, but I love the result :)