The threat of retrogaming streaming service to our hobby...

[SyX]

I would like to take your attention about projects like the recent "Antstream", because i think that it can be really dangerous for the future of our hobby:

Code Select Expand

https://www.antstream.com/ 
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/234135283/antstream-retro-gaming-reborn?ref=bkgayy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhz4wKcuM4A   
First, i don't think that a retrogaming streaming service is a bad idea per se, although i prefer infinitely more quality physical releases as SNK 40th Anniversary.

But this project "anststream", that they call the "netflix of retrograming", is based in a technology similar to the Google Stadia and other game streaming services, that means you are using a video player that answer a keyboard/joystick events and the games only live in the company servers.

For me the problem is not the latency problem or that a 64 KBs game now is going to use gigabytes of video streaming. The thing is worrying me is about what is going to happen with all the sites that are storing the work that this community has been making along those years in preservation, patching  and documentation of games and the rest of the CPC software...

And this is the most important part of the fun that this hobby brings to me, and because that i am getting very pessimistic about the future of retrogaming with the rising of services like this.

What do you think? What should we be doing for fighting against this?

[GUNHED]

Hi SyX! Great to read from you! Is there a recent update of the great ACME-DOS you can post? 

[SyX]

Hi SyX! Great to read from you! Is there a recent update of the great ACME-DOS you can post? 

Hi Stefan!

I continue with a busy life, because i decided to follow your steps as scientist and in a few months i will be finishing my postgraduation, hehehe.

But after that i will get some cpc time, i hope... if those streaming projects don't destroy the community 

[GUNHED]

Hi Mauri,


Well, don't follow my footsteps else you end up as highschool teacher. 

[Axelay]

For me the problem is not the latency problem or that a 64 KBs game now is going to use gigabytes of video streaming. The thing is worrying me is about what is going to happen with all the sites that are storing the work that this community has been making along those years in preservation, patching  and documentation of games and the rest of the CPC software...

Do you mean you're worried about lots of license holders deciding to shut down all the community stuff now they can monetise things again?  Or people in the community not bothering any more to go and stream stuff instead?  That second one doesn't look very likely for the CPC at least, as their full game list appears to be studiously ignoring the platform, even with Oliver Twins games.

[SyX]

First one, of course, I am scared from the ip holders closing our websites.

And there is games that I helped to preserve the only copy discovered of those games, and because that I think is impossible that they could use another tape/disk image that is not the one that I preserved... strange situation?!?!?!

And it doesn't help that you can see in the videos, all the zx games by Code Masters, that they were the first ones in being denied in wos, are available for this service... not a good thing, and it will make much difficult our task of preserving unpublished games as we have made with success along the last years....

[keith56]

It's certainly a concern, I've already heard of take-down cases because people have realized there is a chance to re-monitize their old IP via mobile phone games, and this is just a continuation of that.

There is a cynical side of me that thinks that it could help indie developers like myself, because most people will never play my game so long as they can get Robocop/Batman/whatever big name game for free.. I actually had some kind of web gaming site contact me about hosting ChibiAkumas on such a basis, but I just ignored it, I don't want my games distribution restricted and I don't trust people not to do an IP exclusivity grab.

on a related issue, I've noticed there's a lot of big 'rom packs' on archive.org for many retro game systems - I don't know if they have some kind of 'protected status' as a library, or 'Big N' hasn't noticed yet.

[SyX]

@keith56 , your words are a reflection of your work and how you have been sharing your knowledge through the communities in the last few years (i can tell you that Chibi Akuma can be seen always in one machine in practically every CPC event in Spain, hehehe).

The community is rich in opinions, that makes the community rich in freedom. A "video" streaming service like this, it will have one opinion, one "truth", that it will reduce our freedom in so many ways; maybe patches or remakes will be illegal, i don't know, but i don't want to wake up one day and discover that my projects are illegal.

[GUNHED]

... that means you are using a video player that answer a keyboard/joystick events and the games only live in the company servers.

Well, let's make a game with integrated OS, capable of overtaking the server. That's what I can call a real trojan! (Some CPC emus actually allow CPC progs to access the PC, all we need is to save some data and maybe(!) execute it).

[Loki]

Yeah, I definitely share the concerns people have about this but, being honest, if there's a threat to our enjoyment of retro gaming I don't think that's going to come from Antstream specifically, with the growing rise in the popularity of retro gaming that threat is there regardless unfortunately. People will see there's money to be made and will be looking at ways to get a slice of that, and I suspect there's a fair few people who either made games back in the day or who currently own the rights to them looking at what they can do to get that slice. I really hope we don't start seeing more lawsuits and takedown requests, but sadly it's something that could be a risk even without Antstream right now and I think the threat will come from elsewhere. Antstream from my understanding don't own the IP rights, it's just licensed from the people who do, and I expect it'll be the rights holders who are the ones who initiate anything like that anyway. That's if they do, they might not (and tbh they've never been prevented from doing that anytime they wanted anyway), but it's something we could be faced with anyway unfortunately with the retro gaming revival at the moment. Wish that wasn't the case, but it's where we're at I guess


I'll be honest though, aside from that, I do like the look of some of the features Antstream offers, such as the challenges and the prospect eventually of online multiplayer which would be a good thing, if I can play retro games online with a friend that would actually be pretty cool. I think that's the way they need to be pushing this really, offer things beyond what we already have at the moment and make it something we'd actually want. There's a lot they need to do (and CPC games have unfortunately been overlooked but I hope they're included at some point) but it could be interesting to see what they do with it, and they look to have some good ideas at the moment so I think if they opt to be creative, and give us something more rather than taking away what we already have, I'd be up for it. Perhaps wishful thinking, but we'll see how it goes I guess.

[Gryzor]

Right up until @Loki 's post my fingers were itching to type the very same thing he opened with: It's not Antstream or any single service. Something becoming popular is bound to be monetised (or at least someone will try to). C'est la vie, I'm afraid, not much you can do about it, and pretty much normal. So we plough ahead because, after all, it's very doubtful it will have any meaningful impact on our daily (retro) lives.


Antstream does appeal to me because of its ease; I've set up a number of emulation stations (been wanting to do RetroArch on my Switch for some time now - if anyone knows an idiot-proof way to do it, please get in touch!) and they always fail at some point - ease of use, some corrupted cfg, whatever. So something that could take care of it all and just work on my Shield TV would be nice.


Of course I couldn't care less about the challenges etc, and they currently don't have the CPC on their lists, but it'll be nice and convenient.


Also: gigabytes? Is that how much it takes to stream a 320x240x16 video?

[SkulleateR]

Hi there,


I´ve been reading here on the forum for some time now but this one got my attention and I had to register myself to give my 2 cents about this


First of all, I´m a collector myself, I got many old consoles and computer, but my first one in my life was a CPC 464 (which I still own btw) 


So about Antstream : Personally I don´t need such service, same goes with Stadia, PS Now and so on. I tested GeForce Now, PS Now and other streaming services allready, personally I prefer the local thing. And I also don´t think the antstream service will kill all old websites with roms for download, since we allready have the situation with copyrights and old games.


Just think of NES Mini, C64 Mini, PSX Classic Mini and so on. Just think of the recent released Mario Bros on C64 and how Nintendo forced them to take it down ! Is it gone ? No, The Internet doesn´t forget.


Speaking of Nintendo, they are the ones that would like to kill all ROM Sites on this planet, even if it gets to preserving instead of piracy. But hey ... there are millions of websites where you still can download EVERY Nintendo game, so why should antstream make a difference to the situation ?


Personaly I think it´s  a nice addition to bring Retro Games to people who got no knowledge (or time) to set up a Retro Station at home. Maybe it´s even a way to bring those classic gems to todays youth ?

[Gryzor]

Well said and welcome

[TotO]

Don't be confused. Nintendo protect his games and licences rights against copy and piraty because they are still alive and continue to market them.

[SkulleateR]

Don't be confused. Nintendo protect his games and licences rights against copy and piraty because they are still alive and continue to market them.

Yes but this will be the exact same point with antstream, they license old games and will (try to) make money out of it, so that will be the same situation (mostly)

[TotO]

Sure... Nintendo don't try, "they sold a million" each month.
The main difference is antShit are not selling their own franchises.

[LambdaMikel]

Not concerned at all.


The DSK images of games and such are probably in the PD "by default" after all these years, and the people that do not want to see their DSKs images hosted on these sites can probably enforce it somehow. There also was a time when all the DSK images were stored on FTP servers, before these CPC and retro computing boards existed.

People that care about retro computing would want to get the real hardware IMHO, no an emulator or a streaming service.

The most important thing about retro computing is the old hardware IMHO; no emulator or streaming service can address the physical aspect of retro computing. And I am skeptical that such a service would be used by younger people. Even projects like the C64 Mini fail. I sold my C64 Mini after 2 weeks.


I don't see a big market for that idea I must say. Just my 2 cents.

[zhulien]

I just contacted codemasters to see what they think of publishing their games on an SD Card or Dandenator.  I wonder if they will reply.


UBI Soft replied but they had never even heard of Asphalt and kept saying it was Gameloft who owned the rights - poor them.

[Gryzor]

I really don't remember seeing the Gameloft logo on my 6128 screen...

[TotO]

They probably confuse old licences with new one using the same name... 
By the way, nice to have an answer. (but it is dangerous to wake-up giants)

[GUNHED]

I really don't remember seeing the Gameloft logo on my 6128 screen...

By accident I stumbled over this...