Looks as if it will be funded on day 1. Please not that this is a totally different project than the Vega+ by a totally different team. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1835143999/zx-spectrum-next
I kind of like these things but after things like Vega I wouldn't back a kickstarter myself. I wonder if a similar kickstarter for an Amstrad would be as successful?. As for this being FPGA, does this effectively mean it is really emulating the logic of a spectrum in a programmable chip?
I think 'emulating' isn't the right word for it.
You're really recreating the original circuits on a programmable chip, so what you have is real hardware, no emulation.
The CPC464 is supported on the ZX-Uno (http://zxuno.speccy.org/index_e.shtml), which was originally a ZX Spectrum FPGA implementation with some useful extra features, that supports many different machines now.
I think that an older FPGA board, the C-One also supported the CPC.
Huuum... I never know how to feel about these things. I mean, it is cool and all, but it is still a FPGA implementation, not something made with real discrete components. In my view, this is not a real Spectrum, not even remotely similar, although it will behave as such.
Then the original CPC is not real either as instead of a lot of discrete components, it has a Gate Array (the GA part in FPGA) which perform the same function...
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Real ZX or not!! It's a bit academic! ... I think the ZX Spectrum Next will keep the legacy of the original ZX alive....
I wonder how difficult/expensive (Based on the design of the current ZX Spectrum Next) it would be to make a CPC Next??
Regards,
Ygdrazil
Quote from: tjohnson on 22:14, 23 April 17
I wonder if a similar kickstarter for an Amstrad would be as successful?. As for this being FPGA, does this effectively mean it is really emulating the logic of a spectrum in a programmable chip?
I think that an available "oldscool" case would be important and decisive for success.
This looks really nice and should be the ultimate 8-bit machine. Unfortunately, I only have time for the CPC at the moment...
QuoteI think that an available "oldscool" case would be important and decisive for success.
That's the key.
The problem is not the FPGA implementation, it's that you'll be missing the real machine case and the real keyboard, but besides that, the machine will behave like the real one.
In fact, does the cost-down CPC feels like a real CPC? Because it has many components integrated into a Gate Array, which is the same as a FPGA but cannot be reprogrammed.
Is the Next board capable of being reprogrammed to be CPC compatible?
What would a next-gen CPC case look like? I'd love it to retain the coloured-keys from the 464, they're so iconic!
The case is certainly important, but is completely another problem.
The problem, of course, is that it's very expensive to produce cases.
I know that the ZX-Uno team is working on CPC6128 support, which is a good thing 8)
Quote from: Ygdrazil on 08:08, 24 April 17
Real ZX or not!! It's a bit academic! ... I think the ZX Spectrum Next will keep the legacy of the original ZX alive....
I wonder how difficult/expensive (Based on the design of the current ZX Spectrum Next) it would be to make a CPC Next??
The ZXSN supports other FPGA cores. I think it comes with ZX81, Jupiter Ace and Spectrum (standard/enhanced) cores. It should be possible to integrate one of the CPC cores, as everything system-specific should be within the FPGA. Whether the Spectrum expansion port would be adapted to the CPC pinout is an issue. And then there are the ROM hacks required.
The ZXSN sprite/scrolling support looks a bit like the Plus implementation, but they will look very odd next to the attributey Speccy graphics.
I wonder why they've only gone for a 7MHz turbo option on the Z80 core?
Quote from: robcfg on 06:23, 24 April 17
Then the original CPC is not real either as instead of a lot of discrete components, it has a Gate Array (the GA part in FPGA) which perform the same function...
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Still different from this machine, since it was designed like that in the beginning and lacks the very important FP :) . In any case, I am not saying that the computer is not cool or anything like that, just that I would much prefer to see a reborn 8 bit computer using discrete components and as close as the original as possible, not in a FPGA core :) .
Well, whatever...
I don't follow your logic, but fine.
The apollo-core team have the same CONVERSATION over the vampire accelerators for the amiga. The traditionalists hate them because of the fpga core but users love them lol.
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Quote from: robcfg on 06:23, 24 April 17
Then the original CPC is not real either as instead of a lot of discrete components, it has a Gate Array (the GA part in FPGA) which perform the same function...
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There's a massive difference between a GA and an FPGA. A GA is a matrix of gates that gets a fixed function during the manufacturing process and can never be changed. An FPGA is an array of gates that is (and needs to be) programmed each time you power it up.
To put it in very very basic terms, it's Playmobil vs. Lego :D
Bryce.
Quote from: robcfg on 13:39, 24 April 17
Well, whatever...
I don't follow your logic, but fine.
I stopped being logic the same moment I decided to keep using a 30 year old machine plugged to a CRT screen :)
£350,869 pledged of £250,000! Which means the NEXT will have a bigger FPGA now.
Maybe the Z80 will be at 24 Mhz ;D
TBH there shouldn't be much limiting the Z80 speed in a modern FPGA. I guess they don't want to overpromise, and maybe it's not the development priority.
The larger FPGA however should make other system cores more viable.
I couldn't find any recent posts about the Next and now that the second Kickstarter is soon closing, I decided to bump this one.
Second crowd funding seems to be even more succesfull than the first and still couple of more days to go:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/spectrumnext/zx-spectrum-next-issue-2?ref=discovery&term=Spectrum%20next
I decided to pledge too on this round and it seems to be a wonderful little computer with many possibilities. As an FPGA solution it already has CPC464 core available, too, albeit with still few limitations like the inbuilt keyboard doesn't work yet with it.
These well designed and polished fpga systems IMO are really exciting. There is of course MiSTer which can do pretty much anything, but somehow these more focused systems have something that MiSTer lacks and I'd call that something soul. Even that thick paper manual included with the Next just brings back that wholesomeness of the early home computing days.
There is also very similar MEGA65 project on the prototype stages, which seems to be very similar to ZX Spectrum Next, but with C64:
https://mega65.org/
If there would be a "CPC Next" some day, I'd get it without hesitation!
So, any other current or future Next users here and what are your thoughts?
Quote from: CFox on 11:26, 08 September 20There is also very similar MEGA65 project on the prototype stages, which seems to be very similar to ZX Spectrum Next, but with C64:
https://mega65.org/
Wow, that's ugly! Appreciate it's based on the Commodore 65 prototype but I'd always assume that Commodore would have cleaned that up for general release...
As for the Spectrum Next, it looks gorgeous and I'd love one if I could justify the cost (they seem to have gone up a bit since the original run...)
Quote from: Skunkfish on 11:31, 08 September 20Wow, that's ugly! Appreciate it's based on the Commodore 65 prototype but I'd always assume that Commodore would have cleaned that up for general release... As for the Spectrum Next, it looks gorgeous and I'd love one if I could justify the cost (they seem to have gone up a bit since the original run...)
I on the otherhand quite like the 65 design ;D It sure at least looks unique!
Yeah, what I've gathered the Next project team actually made the first Kickstarter at loss, because they apparently got wrong tax advice, so I think they remedied that with second run. This kind of items are naturally pretty expensive, because production runs are small compared to some typical modern electronics gadgets.
And compared to the second hand market currently, this kickstarter is like a bargain. They have been selling like 700-800£ a piece in Ebay. Currently there is one for sale on Ebay in Slovakia for 1099€. So, If you really want one, kickstarter will be most likely the cheapest option.
Looks that 1.5M£ allows to unlock the new Head Over Heels game (not updated on the page).
Quote from: TotO on 15:11, 08 September 20
Looks that 1.5M£ allows to unlock the new Head Over Heels game (not updated on the page).
It indeed does. It has been very succesful campaign, I believe thet originally didn't have that many stretch goals and added them when pledges continued to pour in.
This is exactly where crowd funding is awesome. Building this system for retail would be just insane business wise: this thing sitting next a shiny new PC in some electronics retail store wouldn't probably move many units and most people would be just confused what it is for. Production runs would be still quite low and retail price with the profits would probably 200£/equivalent higher and it would look even sillier with that shiny new 8 core laptop. But through crowdfunding, there are enough people in the world to make this thing happen and devs know exactly how many units they need to make for each batch.
I really wish we will see more systems like this. Like I posted earlier, MEGA65 looks really promising. I think these focused systems in general are the way to go, because it really gives devs the possibility to polish the system software and hardware wise. Not that Next couldn't do many things and emulate different cores (it does), but the basic functionality is IMO really important. Trying to achieve a true multisystem functionality out of the box ends up as just another MiSTer in a new box (not bashing MiSTer here, it is great system, but I believe it wouldn't be any different in the end).
Quote from: CFox on 17:08, 08 September 20It indeed does. It has been very succesful campaign, I believe thet originally didn't have that many stretch goals and added them when pledges continued to pour in.
The first campaign has the same pledges and the Spectrum Next prise was 50£ cheaper. So, that not explain the success, except the product already exist.
Quote from: CFox on 17:08, 08 September 20Production runs would be still quite low and retail price with the profits would probably 200£/equivalent higher and it would look even sillier with that shiny new 8 core laptop. But through crowdfunding, there are enough people in the world to make this thing happen and devs know exactly how many units they need to make for each batch.
The plastic cases/keys mold and the PCB design was already profitable by the first campaign. So this second batch is pure profit (PCB and parts are cheap) and a great business opportunity with not really valuable pledge rewards.
Quote from: TotO on 17:27, 08 September 20
The first campaign has the same pledges and the Spectrum Next prise was 50£ cheaper. So, that not explain the success, except the product already exist.
The plastic cases/keys mold and the PCB design was already profitable by the first campaign. So this second batch is pure profit (PCB and parts are cheap) and a great business opportunity with not really valuable pledge rewards.
You're not suggesting this is about putting £1m into someones pocket are you?
Quote from: tjohnson on 18:43, 08 September 20
You're not suggesting this is about putting £1m into someones pocket are you?
What I'm sure it is that second batch is more expensive for the final user.
I can't said if profits are 500K, 1M ... as I'm not into the project team.
I would've probably backed it if it was somewhere in the 250-270 range but when I saw the 300+ quid price (plus a big chunk fro delivery) I've decided to pass. I've got too much gear as it is already, nmy other micros are on rotation (no space on th desk), and also got MiSTer recently so for once I managed to restrain myself :)
Admittedly the one year waiting period is also bit of a bummer.
I wish them all the best though and I'm happy it was such a success. Hopefully it will result in more quality soft for this fun machine. Of course, I'm also looking forward to the Next core on MiSTer :P
Mega65 looks interesting but I'm pretty sure it will be even more expensive than Next, and as such will probably have very limited user base.
Quote from: TotO on 18:49, 08 September 20I can't said if profits are 500K, 1M ... as I'm not into the project team.
That is just silly.
You literally think that they get everything there for pretty much free: FPGA, components, motherboard, keyboard, thick color manual, box, manufacturing and logistics.
I think I am not that far off the mark if I say that FPGA and motherboard alone is 3-5 the price of the RPi, which has far cheaper processing unit and MB and which is known to be sold in next to nothing margins and manufactured in astronomical numbers compared to Next, which brings the unit cost to manufacture considerably down compared to the Next. A lot.
Keyboard cheap? Well, you can try to order a small batch of custom keycaps and see what it is, but it isn't cheap even if molding is standard for mechanical keyboards, for example. $50-$100 for set is totally normal. While I think they can get keycaps cheaper for Next, the case, custom keycaps and such are easily dozens of dollars. I'd say that the whole deal including components, manufacturing of electronics, plastics, printing of box, colour manual and logistics can't be much, if any, below £200 for few thousand unit batch. Then reduce taxes, count the work including continued support of the product and divide that money between several people, I don't think it is such a money making scheme you want to see it.
And the first kickstarter was at loss. They threw their own money into it to pull it through and it was apparently because they had some bad tax advice which caused some unpleasant surprise for their economics. They have also stated that the price is higher, because some component prices have gone a bit up.
Is Next pricey? IMO not, that's why I pledged it and I know I'm having tons of fun with it for years. But it isn't definitely for everyone and it is not worth just for retrogaming. Incidentally it costs pretty close the same as original ZX Spectrum back in the day (inflation adjusted price).
Quote from: CFox on 20:28, 08 September 20
You literally think that they get everything there for pretty much free
You think that, not me. The second batch has a cost, but it is less than the first one.
Quote from: CFox on 20:28, 08 September 20I think I am not that far off the mark if I say that FPGA and motherboard alone is 3-5 the price of the RPi
You are free to think what you want to be comforted with your pledge.
Just in example, the FPGA used is XC6SLX9-2FTG256C, the more common and cheapest XILINX version, cost 3USD each for 1000pcs. They will need close to 5000. The memory used is the cheapest 512K SRAM AS7C34096A-10JCN IC, cost 2.5USD each for 1000pcs. They will need close to 20000. (so, they will probably have extra discount on the quantity)
Quote from: TotO on 20:35, 08 September 20
The FPGA used is XC6SLX9-2FTG256C
No it isn't.
And if I may ask where you can get even that particular FPGA for $3 for 1000 units, because that sounds like a terrific deal. I didn't find any sellers pricing them by 1000 units online (which isn't unusual), but using single unit price as a starting point and usual ball parks reductions I really can't get to that $3 price for that FPGA unless it is a long term contract, that is annually few thousand units for several years. Single batch purchase $3 a pop: hard to believe.
But what do I know. I can very well just admit that the Next is your typical $20 china box. Hopefully someone else produces them and similar systems for the community more cheaply in the future! At least it looks like then lucrative business, so it is strange that kickstarter isn't full of similar projects if production costs can be as low as 10-20% of the pledge and it still sells like hot cake.
Quote from: CFox on 21:43, 08 September 20
No it isn't.
Playing on words... Is-it a XILINX Spartan 6 LX9 FTG256 BGA FPGA ... Yes or yes?
Quote from: TotO on 22:06, 08 September 20
Playing on words... Is-it a XILINX Spartan 6 LX9 FTG256 BGA FPGA ... Yes or yes?
I'm not playing anything, it isn't that FPGA. You also by the way claimed LX9 is cheapest Spartan FPGA model, which isn't true (You said Xilinx version, which is the manufacturer but I take you mean the Spartan series, because I'm not playing with words). Nevertheless, Next doesn't have LX9.
But hey, could you tell me where I can get that LX9 for $3 a piece for thousand unit?
Quote from: TotO on 18:49, 08 September 20
What I'm sure it is that second batch is more expensive for the final user.
I can't said if profits are 500K, 1M ... as I'm not into the project team.
QuoteThe Kickstarter Issue 2's prices are higher than the original for a few (very reasonable) reasons:
Taxes. While we didn't charge taxes on the first campaign following advice that crowdfunding was exempt, the taxman said we owed them. The team footed the bill themselves at huge personal cost. This time around we've added tax to the price, which is the lion's share of the price difference.
Components. Some of the parts employed on the Next have gone up in price in the past three years, in particular the FPGA and the RAM chips. This is the second factor composing the price.
Yup, lots of profit for the taxman!
Quote from: CFox on 05:04, 09 September 20
I'm not playing anything, it isn't that FPGA
Hey guy, this is the official picture of the ZX Spectrum NEXT CPU took from the Kick Starter page! ;D
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/spectrumnext/zx-spectrum-next (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/spectrumnext/zx-spectrum-next)
May be it was upgraded for the second campaign? So, let us know was is the new one? LX16?
In any case, the extra 50£ will cover more than twice its cost and VAT...
Quote from: CFox on 05:04, 09 September 20But hey, could you tell me where I can get that LX9 for $3 a piece for thousand unit?
Don't care if you think that is not the good CPU... Peoples from the ZX Spectrum Next Team know well how to do, else they can stop the campaign now! :-\
Quote from: pelrun on 07:23, 09 September 20Yup, lots of profit for the taxman!
Yes, I have read that... Funny to expect that you can do something serious and thinking that you don't have to pay tax... Worst, thinking that you can use this argument (and the fpga/ram price) to increase the price for the second batch, while all the fixed costs was already payed.
Quote from: TotO on 07:28, 09 September 20
Hey guy, this is the official picture of the ZX Spectrum NEXT CPU took from the Kick Starter page! ;D
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/spectrumnext/zx-spectrum-next (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/spectrumnext/zx-spectrum-next)
May be it was upgraded for the second campaign?
It was upgraded already during the first campaign.
Quote
So, let us know was is the new one? LX16?
It isn't a new one. Every production Next has been with LX16, it was a stretch goal in the original kickstarter. You linked the old kickstarter page, where there is a photo of preproduction MB and if you would've done even a bit research on the subject, you would've known what is in the machine. This all can be found on the internet with simple google search which takes about 3 seconds.
QuoteIn any case, the extra 50£ will cover more than twice its cost and VAT...
Don't care if you think that is not the good CPU... Peoples from the ZX Spectrum Next Team know well how to do, else they can stop the campaign now! :-\
I don't understand this sentence (really I'm not trying to be mean, I'm not also native english speaker and really don't understand what you are saying.
But, I've said it before. They made loss with the first campaign because of some tax issue they didn't take into account and they needed to shell their own money to fulfill the campaign. Search it yourself if you don't believe. It wasn't a commercial success, but they made loss with it. They remedied that with this campaign and also stated that some prices of components have gone up. These are the reasons for higher price.
And I guess no LX9 for $3 then? Just FYI, that I've never seen a fixed price batch pricing for any FPGA. They are usually negotiated contracts and you can get prices considerably down from the single unit price when dealing with a multi year contract for thousands of units annually and relative price drops are bigger in more expensive units. This was the situation at least a year or two ago, but you may have better knowledge about the situation currently.
I don't bother with this thread anymore as this argument brings nothing to the table. Peace and all the best to you, brother.
You have to also pay for the time invested in the design, software and manuals, even if the people are doing it mostly out of love and taking a risk themselves. Whilst a lot of it was done for the first KS this second KS was likely anticipated and the cost is spread across both campaigns. I expect it is a significant chunk of the final price considering there are under 10k units in the end.
The cost was lower for the first campaign - not a lot cheaper once you factor in the tax issues (they should have got a second opinion there, HMRC are not a cuddly nice government organisation) - but that had higher risk for the participants.
Released in 2015, LX9/16/25 are the same based FPGA and cost in 2020 only 3$, 4$, 8$ per 1000 units respectively.
Sure, the prices are open and, in example, you can found them in other places at 4$, 6$, 10$ per 1000 units respectively.
In 2020, expensive FPGA are LX75/100/150. They cost 10 times the LX9/16/25 prices respectively!
They are probably useless for the ZX next usage, but answer to a simple question "what are cheap and expensive FPGA today?".
There are good arguments around the first campaign price (r&d, molds, prints, ...), but not for the second one.
The extra 50£ is a joke, while the goal of any second projects is to make investments profitable, not to ask to pay "forgotten TAX" for the first campaign. :-\
By the way, this is a great project creating a new community of around 8000 peoples. There is not price for that! :) :-*
Interesting views, but everyone, definitely some rose tints on by some people who have backed the thing. I don't knew why people get so excited by the spectrum myself, I never thought much of it but then I had a cpc which was better so why would I.
£1.7m and the rush at the end might make it hit £1.8m - so a good success for them.
TBH the hardware in the Next is kinda-Plus inspired (and all the other systems as well), but just more of it. Hardware Sprites on-chip, but 64-128 of them, same size, 16/256 colours. Rasters/copper, tilemode option, hi-res, etc. And it can run other cores, which may end up being the use I put mine to.
But the Plus has 4096 colours, and therefore still wins (using the same logic that meant the A1200 beat the Atari Falcon). It also didn't have a stupid keyboard layout with no punctuation and two columns of special function keys. What is with that, and why did they retain it for the Next?
TBH I'd base a FPGA CPC Plus on the Next's base board design (with CPC alterations for expansion port), integrated Flashfloppy, 4MB, CPC styled keyboard, and so on.
Quote from: TotO on 04:25, 10 September 20
By the way, this is a great project creating a new community of around 8000 peoples. There is not price for that! :) :-*
Cheap shot. Feels like we're getting into sour grapes territory (if in fact it wasn't the reason to start this argument in the first place). It's also incorrect, because you can also use Next as an emulator or FPGA core, thus the "community" is much bigger. And 8000 is > 0, in any case.
Personally I'm also not happy with the price, which is why I did not back it, but I don't claim to know 100% what is the reason for the hike or assume some shenanigans on the maker's part. It definitely isn't as simple as claiming that the main chip costs 3USD, because if it was true we would have a flood of similar DIY boards already, but as it is even ZX UNO costs ~100USD.
The taxman excuse is a bit daft. Maybe there are some additional covid-induced costs, who knows. The bottom line is that making these small-batch niche products is just expensive, that's all.
And overall, I don't mind them making some profit on it - why shouldn't they? I very much doubt it is a 6 figure thou and they're all building mansions in Bahamas.