Author Topic: Music/Rhythm Games: Viable on CPC?  (Read 2741 times)

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Offline sigh

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Music/Rhythm Games: Viable on CPC?
« on: 00:25, 15 September 12 »
I've just been playing the rhythm action game "Rhythm Tengoku" which is a simple music game. Is something like this possible on the CPC? There's hardly and animations in these games and I'm thinking that using something like mode2 graphics with out any double buffering and a fixed screen (no scrolling etc), with a few frames of animation in a screen size (say 192x136) would give a good bit of memory for sound and samples on a 64KB machine(?)

Rhythm Tengoku 1



Offline arnoldemu

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Re: Music/Rhythm Games: Viable on CPC?
« Reply #1 on: 12:09, 15 September 12 »
don't know about fitting all that in, but a Rhythm game is certainly doable.
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Offline sigh

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Re: Music/Rhythm Games: Viable on CPC?
« Reply #2 on: 15:13, 15 September 12 »
don't know about fitting all that in, but a Rhythm game is certainly doable.

So what would be the hurdles in creating a rhythm music game like Tengoku? Graphically speaking for the pixel artist, it would not be much of a headache with so few frames, but is there a lot going on behind the scenes in regards to the programming side of things? What would be the biggest problems?

Offline MacDeath

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Re: Music/Rhythm Games: Viable on CPC?
« Reply #3 on: 17:42, 15 September 12 »
Quote
would give a good bit of memory for sound and samples on a 64KB machine
OMG...


Seriously, just use Disks  !
According to the Batman Demo, it could perhaps be possible to load while playing... but Game with keyboard/Joystick scan may be a bit trickier than railroaded Demo with no Man-Machine interaction.

Also the PLUS with its audio DMA may be of some help...
But too much Samples are probably not viable because you know, it could need shittons of Extra RAM.

This said, AY sound is quite good enough (if well done) so it could just need to get good versions of various chiptunes and do the movements sequances.

Unanimated screenzone only use a few bits of RAM (as VRAM) and quite no CPU but I see you point in reducing the screen.
But Mode2 is not really a gain... less monitor space for what ? having colours is good to so you don't only rely on shapes to follow the game.

I see you aim at an exact port of the game you posted as video. Well perhaps less ambitious sounds (no fully sampled tunes) and less ambitious animation : not as large thing the side of the whole screen animated...

Many rythm games do exist and I also think this is quite a shame almost none exist on CPC.


Look at Klax... while not actually a Rythm game, it looks like Guitar Hero sort of stuff.




Ok the game you shown us had a lot of monocolour tiles... (due to the quite large ratio of the comic style graphics) so a correctly designed tile management may not us that much RAM.
To animate this, you "simply" swap tiles.
Tiles could even be compressed I guess.




Also perhaps the Mode0 technic as used for WonderBoy/Ghost and Goblin/ghouls and ghost ... the one with only 4 colours backgrounds and 3+transparency forground...
This method gives large gains in RAM and CPU but can look quite disapointing graphically...
But for this game it could be great actually.


another possible possibly fun possibility thing could be a ability from the CPC to have the Tape read mixed with the sound output.
Like you know, when you load stuff you can hear the bit flow through the Audio output.
Perhaps a way to get this synchronised ?
And to run other stuffs alongside ?

« Last Edit: 17:58, 15 September 12 by MacDeath »

Offline arnoldemu

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Re: Music/Rhythm Games: Viable on CPC?
« Reply #4 on: 17:58, 15 September 12 »
So what would be the hurdles in creating a rhythm music game like Tengoku? Graphically speaking for the pixel artist, it would not be much of a headache with so few frames, but is there a lot going on behind the scenes in regards to the programming side of things? What would be the biggest problems?
programming is fairly simple really...

think of something like guitar hero, where buttons to press are going up (or down) the screen at a fixed rate.

They pass a certain line on the screen.  You must press the correct buttons when they cross this line.

Well the code knows which buttons would be near this line. It can check the key press, and based on how far away the buttons are in relation to the line, it says "early", "late" or "perfect".

Same is true of the other ones, where things appear on the screen, you must press at correct time.
Code knows when the correct time is and when you press the keys, and it goes from there.

The hard work, I think, is the sequencing of the animations so that it is fun. Or, in the case of the guitar hero, some great music, and some good patterns that go with the music. Defining fun patterns is hard work for a programmer.

So the code is almost like a "timeline" playback with some "Press now" commands and working out how close you did it to that command.

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Offline MacDeath

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Re: Music/Rhythm Games: Viable on CPC?
« Reply #5 on: 18:01, 15 September 12 »
Quote
Defining fun patterns is hard work for a programmer
:laugh:


Would need a clever "construction kit" and then let the "professionals" do the job.
I mean Artists and musicians of course.


Not sure it an AY chiptune could be processed (pre-processed) in order to give a suitable calculated pattern set from the tune.

Offline arnoldemu

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Re: Music/Rhythm Games: Viable on CPC?
« Reply #6 on: 18:01, 15 September 12 »
Also the PLUS with its DMA may be of some help...
But too much Samples are probably not viable because you know, it could need shittons of Extra RAM.
With DMA sound, i am sure music playback during loading is much easier to do and with lots of cpu available.

DMA samples is a bit harder, because they must play from main 64k ram. So you need to copy new data into the main ram to play more.


This said, AY sound is quite good enough (if well done) so it could just need to get good versions of various chiptunes and do the movements sequances.
true, ay sound would be fine.

Many rythm games do exist and I also think this is quite a shame almost none exist on CPC.
As I said, programming them is fairly easy, but designing them is much harder.


Look at Klax... while not actually a Rythm game, it looks like Guitar Hero sort of stuff.
this is different, tiles probably appear at random, you do not need to press key at a specific time.

Ok the game you shown us had a lot of monocolour tiles... (due to the quite large ratio of the comic style graphics) so a correctly designed tile management may not us that much RAM.
To animate this, you "simply" swap tiles.
Tiles could even be compressed I guess.
I think here, mode and colours are really not important. Much more important is how it plays, and if it feels good to play.
After that you can do what you want to give the look you want.

Mode 2 could be fine, depends on what look you want.
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Offline MacDeath

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Re: Music/Rhythm Games: Viable on CPC?
« Reply #7 on: 18:10, 15 September 12 »
Quote
With DMA sound, i am sure music playback during loading is much easier to do and with lots of cpu available.DMA samples is a bit harder, because they must play from main 64k ram. So you need to copy new data into the main ram to play more.
having the game engine and some stuffs in ROM cartridge can halp a little bit to gree some RAM for varied loadable Music Datas.


Also using a 128K machine and enable varied Massive RAM extensions.


Of course the Z80 handle only 64k at a time but Bankswitching is your friend.
We all know CPC/PLUS need more than 64K to run "properly"*.


*at optimal possibilities.


Quote
true, ay sound would be fine.
there is a massively huge library in AY sounds thx to the presence of such chip on so many popular machines :
Atari St, ZX Spectrum128/eastern clones, even MSX1...
AY riderz team  and Atari ST scene would certainly love to participate in such project.

Quote
this is different, tiles probably appear at random, you do not need to press key at a specific time.
I was refering to Klax because visually it "looks" like a Rythm game.
Gameplaywise it is not one at all of course.


But you need to somewhat catch the tiles just before they fall down the line... really a few similarities despite the "Random bricks" gameplay.

« Last Edit: 18:12, 15 September 12 by MacDeath »

Offline sigh

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Re: Music/Rhythm Games: Viable on CPC?
« Reply #8 on: 18:38, 15 September 12 »
Interesting details!

I wasn't looking to convert tengoku to the CPC, but rather look at creating a game with the same gameplay design. Space Channel 5 and Rhythm Tengoku, both have a nice design that focuses on timing simple animation rhythms rather than just hitting an arrow or pressing a button when a line passes, which in my opinion isn't as fun.
I thought that by using mode 2, you could have a lot more graphics as the sprite sheet is a lot bigger for less KB than using mode 0 or mode 1. Also - I should probably try creating graphics in one of these modes as a new venture.

Space Channel 5 is pretty much a graphic version of "Simple Simon" and is very awesome!

Space Channel 5 Part 2 - Report 1-2 Extra Mode - Ulala Back in Action [ENG][PS2]

Offline arnoldemu

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Re: Music/Rhythm Games: Viable on CPC?
« Reply #9 on: 12:37, 16 September 12 »
Yes Space Channel 5 is awesome, but the code remains similar.
it is still pressing keys, the code determines how close you are to when you need to press them and gives you a rating, this then determines how the animation plays and how well you do.
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Offline sigh

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Re: Music/Rhythm Games: Viable on CPC?
« Reply #10 on: 13:02, 16 September 12 »
Yes Space Channel 5 is awesome, but the code remains similar.
it is still pressing keys, the code determines how close you are to when you need to press them and gives you a rating, this then determines how the animation plays and how well you do.


Okay cool. Using the AY is good, but what about using actual samples? It would be okay with this sort of game as the animation pose would freeze at the same time the sample is being played?

If leaving around 32KB for AY and samples, would this be fine for a 64KB machine? Or would folks rather see a Space Channel 5/Tengoku on a Plus cartridge instead? Or even more importantly, are there any music programmers who would be interested in such a project?

Offline MacDeath

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Re: Music/Rhythm Games: Viable on CPC?
« Reply #11 on: 03:08, 17 September 12 »
those rythm games have shittons of variations...
This one is quite fun and nice looking :
Audiosurf - At the Gala Remix (Dash is Dreaming) - BlackGryph0n


could need some fast race game engine... could even look great in Mode1.
Some sort of Chase HQ.

« Last Edit: 03:14, 17 September 12 by MacDeath »

Offline arnoldemu

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Re: Music/Rhythm Games: Viable on CPC?
« Reply #12 on: 11:09, 17 September 12 »
Okay cool. Using the AY is good, but what about using actual samples? It would be okay with this sort of game as the animation pose would freeze at the same time the sample is being played?

If leaving around 32KB for AY and samples, would this be fine for a 64KB machine? Or would folks rather see a Space Channel 5/Tengoku on a Plus cartridge instead? Or even more importantly, are there any music programmers who would be interested in such a project?
pausing and playing samples is much easier than playing samples while it continues.
The easiest samples are 4-bit (16 volume levels), 1 channel. The storage space depends on the frequency, e.g. 8Khz.  Each sound sample packs into 1 byte.
You'd probably run out of space fast if you wanted many.

I can't commit to such a project yet, I have many more that take priority at this time.
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Offline sigh

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Re: Music/Rhythm Games: Viable on CPC?
« Reply #13 on: 12:11, 17 September 12 »
I can't commit to such a project yet, I have many more that take priority at this time.

Your already helping me out with the beat em up which I very much appreciate (when I finally give you the sprites!). I wouldn't dare take the liberty to ask you to help on this one too :) .

pausing and playing samples is much easier than playing samples while it continues.
The easiest samples are 4-bit (16 volume levels), 1 channel. The storage space depends on the frequency, e.g. 8Khz.  Each sound sample packs into 1 byte.
You'd probably run out of space fast if you wanted many.


Hmmm. Does anyone know how much kb was used for the sampled speech on robocop and Chase HQ?

I have a few idea's for a simple rhythm/RPG game involving a guitarist, basist and a drummer with the gamepplay situated around the "Simple Simon" mechanics. as well as some Tengoku style mechanics. It would be using mode 1 graphics with only a 16kb sheet used for everything, from animated sprites to backgrounds.
 
 More info will follow.

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Re: Music/Rhythm Games: Viable on CPC?
« Reply #14 on: 06:13, 25 September 12 »
could need some fast race game engine... could even look great in Mode1.
Some sort of Chase HQ.

The Trailblazer engine (or a variation from my River scroll demo) would be ideal for this type of game (GH clone).