So, i've been dusting my shelf (once in years, mind you) and i found my old Schneider CPC464. I tried to repair it about 5 years ago, and i even made a topic on this forum (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/my-schneider-cpc-464-don%27t-work/), you should check it for details.
I dropped it because back then the repair surpassed my possibilities, and i was simply scared to turn it on when it was "running" so i couldn't really check if the RAM is broken or some other part is visibly smoldering. Now i done that, and courtesy of phone i now have, i was able to make a short video where i show how it exactly looks (and sounds).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsCUgSpV4SY& (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsCUgSpV4SY&)As you can hear, when i turn on the switch, a sound reminiscent of popcorn popping is clearly heard. As you may have know, the switch itself doesnt mechanically make that sound, so it is from inside of the computer. And as you can see, i checked all the parts for unusual heat and none of them were hot (do i need to keep it running for longer before checking?)
Nothing have changed it the almost 5 years it have dusted on my shelf. Before i turned it on today i rudimentarily cleaned it with pressurized butane.A short recap of remedies i tried 5 years ago -
- Cleaning with alcohol
- I gave it off to someone who patched the power supply (or so i thought)
- Resettling Z80
- Resettling of Gate Array
- Replacement of Gate Array
Now that i have much more possibilities in both expenses for new parts and in department of making better quality photos and videos for you guys to analyze, i think now it is the time to try fixing again. And in anticipation i already found a replacement Z80 that i can buy, but thats only gonna happen if you guys rule out that it is absolutely neccesary to at least try replacing it.I think i will try to make a complete batch of mainboard in methanol, because last time i only gently brushed it.Cheers and thanks in advance
Two things:
1 - The popping is from the monitor and is a sign that it will give up working in the near future. So when the CPC works again you'll need to get some other solution for a power supply and screen (SCART cable or whatever).
2 - The Z80 is fine, otherwise that square wouldn't have appeared on the screen. Most likely some RAM has failed and this will need to be replaced.
Bryce.
I saw something glimmering and slimey near the power supply on the underside, i unscrewed the board and it turns out the guy who was "fixing" it used a exceptionally sticky piece of tape to isolate the patch. Ofcourse the slimey wet side was facing the exposed patch, and most propably it was sizzling. I have taken the piece away and put it the other way around, so it is still isolated but the glue isnt contacting power supply. I cleaned the power supply with pressurized butane. The frequency of sizzling lowered significantly (back then it was everytime, now ~1/6 of time).I also left it running for a longer time (about 8 minutes) and none of the chips were exceptionally hot - albeit the sound chip was a little bit hotter than others. They all were still no hotter than 40C.I also pinpointed the sizzling sound to the tape assembly. I put my ear dangerously close to both the mainboard and to the electronics that are under the tape player, and the sizzling is definitely from the latter. I also noticed that about 2/3 times the electronics under the tape (please tell me how they are called ??? ) sizzle, something other than a rectangle appears, like a grainy *something*.I dont even know what are the purposes od this tape electronics thingy besides reading tapes and providing the switch, and IF there are. Please end my unawareness. Also, are there contraindications to just unscrewing this tape assembly and dumping it in alcohol to clean it? BTW, here are some (better than last time) photos of the patched power supplyhttps://imgur.com/a/veiHwAE (https://imgur.com/a/veiHwAE)Thanks
I also recorded a video that shows those weird unusual images.The image shown on screen seems to always correspond to sounds of the tape electronics thingy. When it emits those cracking sounds, the image on screen twitches and moves.Dont mind the thump at 1:02 :-X https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yxCEEcbkcc& (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yxCEEcbkcc&)
You can't be "dangerously close" to a PCB that only has a 5V 2A supply. At 10W you could lick the board and still wouldn't be in danger.
The sounds you are hearing are more likely to be the normal processing sounds, and all that switching on and off isn't going to change anything. You need to send the PCB to someone who can fix it for you.
Bryce.
I meant dangerously close for the PCB ;p Last time i checked my ears were conductors.Unfortunately i dont know anyone that could fix the PCB (shit i dont know many people in general). And once i did this and the guy sent me back a supposedly fixed PCB that was "working" exactly the same way that it was when i sent it.
Can faulty RAM be detected with a multimeter? Because none of them feels hot. I dont feel like swapping 8 of them with a primitive 45 years old solderer.
RAM doesn't always get hot when it has failed, but you also won't be able to test it with a multimeter. You could send the PCB to me (in Germany) if you like. I will definitely not send it back broken. Not sure what the postage back and forth will cost, but if you have no local repair options, I'm probably the closest.
Bryce.
P.s. Even "conductive ears" aren't conductive enough to cause a danger to the PCB :D
Hmm. From Poland to Germany i can post this as a registered priority mail for exactly 28PLN (~7$), in a plastic bag wrapped in bubble wrap. Expected delivery time 3 days. From Germany to Poland, i think something like this will be viable(https://i.imgur.com/zIxbUZd.png)I can send you money for postage and work directly in the mail. Please respond with how much you would want for it, and how long would it take. Cheers
Pm on its way to you....
Bryce.
So twox's 464 arrived last night and I had time to look at it tonight. As there is often talk about RAM failures and temperatures (ie: "none of the RAM ICs are hot, so they must be ok" etc), I thought I'd share some data with the Forum here.
Firstly the good news for twox: The issue is two failed RAM's, I'll fix it by the weekend and get it back to you as soon as possible.
Now to temperatures. I used the excellent RAM test from @gerald (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=250) to establish which RAM's had failed (it was D1 and D3). On the cost down 464 the order of RAMs is different to the standard 464's and 6128's, they are not in order, which can be quite confusing. From top to bottom the order is D3, D2, D1, D0, D4, D5, D6, D7. Looking at the thermal picture, the RAM's are obviously hotter than the other RAM's, however, the difference is tiny and not noticable by touching. Althought the top RAM and third RAM light up like a christmas tree in the thermal picture, the actual difference was only 1.2°C
This is not to say that failed RAM's don't get really hot, they do, they can burn your fingers, but it's not always the case. RAM's can fail and the difference is not or barely noticable.
Time to get the soldering iron fired up.
Bryce.
Hmm.. Is it completely unreasonable to think that the patched power supply caused the damage of those RAM chips? If so, replacement of those would be just sprinkling shit with sand (an old Polish saying).Cheers
No, the patch couldn't have caused this, however, the patch is a bit messy, so I will fix that up too while I have the iron on.
Bryce.
So. Just finished the repair and your computer is back up and running. I also cleaned up the old power socket repair as much as it could be.
Bryce.
:o My father will have a hell of a suprise! Lets hope that he wont spill Commie-Coca cola on it this time! Now lets hope that the tape deck and keyboard are functional..Cheers
I tested the AY for keyboard input and sound, so if there are keyboard issues it will be from the physical keyboard, not the electronics and that usually just means it needs to be cleaned (at least on the 464's). The tapedeck should also be fine is the belts are good and it has been cleaned.
Bryce.
So.. I dont know if am just delusional, but i remember that 5 years ago i tried the tape deck with some generic music tape and it played the music fine (as fine as the poor speaker could). Judging by the fact that CPCs make this sound when reading tapes, why wouldn't they play music tapes?
Because the CPC has some filters and comparators that are optimised for converting frequencies into digital bits. You would hear the music, but it would sound terrible.
Bryce.
IMHO it was still better than motivational song for polish Euro 2012 team.
So.. My 8-bit machine powered by Z80 arrived today and this happened:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtuJ8u-PKbs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtuJ8u-PKbs)
But seriously, there are still some faults.
Keyboard keys are mushy like squishing stress balls (but atleast they all work)
Sometimes right after startup computer emits a high pitched sound
Tape reader didn't read my 'car audio adaptor' tape, but it was rotating so i suspect just dirt or faulty audio adaptor
Cheers
:D You didn't have me fooled. I tested the shit out of it before sending it back!
Regarding the other issues:
Keys: That's how they always were, you're just to used to using modern keyboards.
High pitched sound: That's coming from the monitor and is a sign that the monitor may not live all that long, the HV coilis getting old.
Tape: Clean the heads.
Bryce.
We all know that your heart skipped a beat :laugh: Anyways, i fiddled around with the sound potentiometer and when i did it it also produced those pitches. Shit, i hope it is that the speaker is faulty not the monitor, because i heard those are nasty to repair and can kill you (and i've never ever repaired them).. I've had enought of CRT's producing those aggresive electronic cracks when i used them all the way to 2016. Fortunately i lived all the way trought (my power supply was another story..)I think that now i need to educate myself about tape head cleaning.Cheers
BTW.. Is overscan 100% physically safe for those GT65? I plan to play some overscan games and i dont want to make a BBQ in my room.. Especially that my GT65 definitely isn't in mint condition. Cheers
Overscan doesn't have any physical effect on the monitor, all it does is put more data onto the screen (ie: reduce the border). The monitor scans exactly the same as it normally would.
Bryce.
Weird.. I could place the cotton stick i used to clean the head back to its container and nobody would notice (Not that my family reuses cotton sticks...)No effect. Theres some rustling in the adaptor itself, i think it is broken. I will check it in my car, i was going to the garage anyways. And i will look for some of the "original" tapes when i am at it. Cheers
So it turns out that the player in my car is broken. i found some unlabeled tapes, i will try saving on them and then running. CheersEdit: as it turns out saving/reading from a regular tape worked fine. I will continue to tinker with the adaptor.
I got it to work!! "This side up" on the adaptor made a fool out of me!!! argh!! :doh:
After 1.5 days of playing and careful observations, my main (and only) concern is the whistle. It definitely comes from the speaker, and volume of the whistle corresponds to volume of other sounds. Yesterday, when i was playing games, only the loudest volume was hearable. Few hours into gaming, i could also locate a sweet spot somewhere at 40% volume (the rest was still unhearable). Today all volumes worked, but the whistling did not stop, and i wouldn't lie if i said that it got louder. So, the state of speaker isn't stable, the fact that it got better by time is just dumb luck. Also, i tried to plug in old headphones, but it did not stop playing on the speaker and the headphones were silent. I can record a video of this to diagnose it further if needed. Cheers
Inserting the headphones doesn't cut off the internal speakers, it plays both in parallel, so you have to turn down the speaker yourself. It's also not a headphone socket, it's an audio out, so non-amplified headphones would probably be very quiet if they are high impedance.
The whistling is hard to judge without hearing it. There was always a slight buzz from the CPC speaker, but the aging capacitors on the amplifier board may have made this worse. You could also try cleaning the volume potentiometer and see if that helps.
Bryce.
The whistle is very simmilar to kettle whistling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQXvFOYhwss (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQXvFOYhwss)My phone introduced sharp cuts in the audio for some reason, in reality the volume is gradual, never stops and always corresponds to the value on potentiometer.Also, one of the capacitors on the board had a yellow gunk under it. It kind of looked like it was applied deliberately, but i thought it was worthwhile to mention it.
Oh, that's not the normal whistle, I suspect a capacitor or two need changing on the amplifier board. A picture of the "gunk" under the capacitor might also help to determine whether it's leakage or mastic.
Bryce.
It was very hard to make a good quality photo without removing the board completely, but i guess i will need to do so anyways.Here are two photos that i managed to snap, sorry for bad quality. The capacitor in question is the one in middle.
https://imgur.com/a/DhbFoFg (https://imgur.com/a/DhbFoFg)
EDIT:
Here are some more photos
https://imgur.com/a/lGjf8Qi (https://imgur.com/a/lGjf8Qi)
The thinnier one (part number c308) is 25v (althought service manual says its 10v), 22uf. The bulkier one (part number c322) is 10v, 470uf. Both are not swollen at all, or unnoticeably so.
Also, if i were to replace the bigger capacitor, i would need to completely remove the board. There are like 12 different cables fixed to the board, would i need to disassemble the whole tape assembly or is there a magic trick to do it better?
LATE NIGHT EDIT:
I found a photo of the board, and it also has this substance in the very same spots:
https://www.genesis8bit.fr/archives/index.php?news_id=907 (https://www.genesis8bit.fr/archives/index.php?news_id=907)
So i guess those capacitors are not faulty.. But, i just noticed that one of L302 (Relay) solders have a brown outline (kind of). From what i browsed on english, french, russian, devilish evil sites this relay's business is related to tapes, which work fine in my CPC so i am confused. All other parts look fine to me.
That gunk is mastic, not something that came out of the capacitor. The voltage of capacitors isn't that critical as long as it's higher than the voltage being applied to it, without being crazy high. ie: For a 5V system, anything above 5V, maybe up to 50V would be fine, but a 2000V capacitor would be too much. The capacitors probably could do with a swap anyway just due to age.
The relay is what starts/stops the motor. If the tape motor is turning on/off the relay is fine.
Bryce.
Hmm. So i am changing capacitors all the way from C301 to C314? Do you suggest changing from C301 to C314 or vice versa?BTW.. Isn't the whole ordeal grounded using the two screws that attach the board? When i dissasembled it i noticed that i have only one screw.
Change all electrolytics, ceramics don't need to be changed as they don't age. The circuit is grounded through the 6pin connector too. Without a ground it wouldn't work at all.
Bryce.
I'll go buy some of those tomorrow. For now i will play with a speaker system (it is amplified as far as im aware).Your IC desoldering tutorial on wiki says its unsafe to desolder ICs from bottom. Is it also the case with those caps (yes IK caps arent ICs)? All cap replacement tutorials i watched showed desoldering from bottom, so i am confused. Cheers
EDIT:
Just plugged in an amplified speaker. The default speaker is at zero, but now i hear the same whine from my auxiliary speakers. Is the audio-out connected in any way to the speaker/tape board or it goes straight out the AY?I also noticed, that when loading tapes this whine isn't occuring. If the AY output is supressed during loading, it is another thing that points to AY.
The reason I say that is because the pins are soldered on the top too. If you haven't removed all the solder from the top and pull the chip, you end up tearing the traces off the PCB. This is unlikely to happen on capacitors, and either way, the tape deck PCB is single sided, so there aren'T any traces to destroy on the top.
That's starting to look more like an AY issue, the Aux output doesn't go via the amplifier.
Bryce.
Now that is a problem.. I heard that getting this chip specifically means alot of trouble. Especially for a guy who doesn't have Paypal and doesnt want to pay a ridicolous price of 50$ to ship from china. There arent any of those locally (and by locally i meant whole Poland) to buy. For some reason arduino users have over-abundance of those, but i havent been able to discover how. They suspiciously die of internal hemorrhage when i try to ask them (and the AY's disappear). I guess i just need to keep on trying. Cheers
No, the AY is pretty easy to find on ebay and other sources. Make sure you socket the new one though.
Bryce.
Do you have some of those AY's laying around? I happen to have a spare 40010, confirmed working, and i thought about a little exchange... Those things go around for 4x as much as AY's so you definitely wont be lossy :P And you will have a better use for it than me, if it were to stay at my, in some distant future it could be the last available replacement GA in the whole world. And it would be forgotten. Yuck.
If you accept, my private message box is open as it ever was.
Cheers
I'll check tonight and send you a PM later.
Bryce.
Quote from: twox on 19:07, 12 February 19
Do you have some of those AY's laying around? I happen to have a spare 40010, confirmed working, and i thought about a little exchange...
Oh, if Bryce doesnt have one, I'll sure trade you! That's a VERY BAD DEAL (for you!) I should say. But I think you know that...
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 19:37, 13 February 19
Oh, if Bryce doesnt have one, I'll sure trade you! That's a VERY BAD DEAL (for you!) I should say. But I think you know that...
Not to worry, i'll make sure that he at least includes a DIP28 socket!I am very well aware that its not the best deal for me, but even if i wanted to sell the damned thing most propably i couldn't. I dont even really have a bank account of my own, let alone a Paypal or Ebay account. Moreover, if you peek(the right places) you still can source GA's for a fair price. I think i bought my one from CentPourCent, for under 10$. If i were to buy AY from Ebay, id pay just about the same amout of money.And, i dont want this GA to lay around in the dirts of my desk, when it could be the difference between one CPC working and not.
Also, with the availability of 40010 schematics, it can be reproduced on FPGA's. Then, it is a case of making a board to connect the different pinouts. Stuff like this isn't very expensive (in retail), and BOOM. We have a supply of replacement GA's. BTW, i just recently learned about all this FPGA stuff and it completely blew my mind. What if we were to allow a neural network to work on a shitload of FPGA's? And allow it to change the logic gates? And allow it to overwrite it's own program memory?
Quote from: twox on 19:48, 13 February 19
Also, with the availability of 40010 schematics, it can be reproduced on FPGA's. Then, it is a case of making a board to connect the different pinouts.
I'm afraid it is a bit more complicated than that ;) For starters, the schematics don't help that much - it would be good to a least have a netlist... unless you want to place a couple thousand gates by hand. See, the guy that created the Monster 6502 CPU at least hat the netlist from the Javascript 6502 Simulator, for example.
But it is a good question - do FPGA Amstrad cores (MIST FPGA) actually implement the GA on a Register-Transfer Level at least?
However, it is of course also possible to specify the GA logic by means of logic equations (functional specification), and then let the Verilog / VHDL compiler figure it out... not sure that's good enough though. Curious to learn how MIST FPGA Amstrad Core does that!
Quote from: twox on 19:48, 13 February 19What if we were to allow a neural network to work on a shitload of FPGA's?
Google for it and you will find a lot of FPGA-based implementations of neural networks... not sure they are using a s***l*** though, I was thinking more like Silicon :laugh:
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 20:17, 13 February 19
I'm afraid it is a bit more complicated like that ;) For starters, the schematics don't help that much - it would be good to a least have a netlist... unless you want to place a couple thousand gates by hand. See, the guy that created the Monster 6502 CPU at least hat the netlist from the Javascript 6502 Simulator, for example.
But it is a good question - doe FPQA Amstrad's cores (MIST FPGA) actually implement the GA on a Register-Transfer Level at least?
However, it is of course also possible to specify the GA logic by means of logic equations (functional specification), and then let the Verilog / VHDL compiler figure it out... not sure that's good enough though. Curious to learn how MIST FPGA Amstrad Core does that!
Well, from my message it is not hard to deduct that i am not an expert on the topic ::)
I just found this (in Polish):
https://www.speccy.pl/forum/index.php?topic=3663.0
Basically, they were talking about the exact same thing that came to my mind - a FPGA GA replacement. Apparently some guy was prototyping a FPGA GA. I wouldn't be suprised if the guy was registered here. The post was linking to some facebook page but
unfortunately i dont have a facebook account so i cant investigate it myself. Im sure you will have a nice research thought (if you have a facebook account, that is).
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 20:17, 13 February 19
But it is a good question - do FPGA Amstrad cores (MIST FPGA) actually implement the GA on a Register-Transfer Level at least?
However, it is of course also possible to specify the GA logic by means of logic equations (functional specification), and then let the Verilog / VHDL compiler figure it out... not sure that's good enough though. Curious to learn how MIST FPGA Amstrad Core does that!
Seem that this effor is already on the way... but probably still a long way to go:
http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/gate-array-decapped!/200/
Id give it a year or two.I already seen a AY-8912A FPGA replacement for original Speccy's, based on Atmega8 (a very small 5v chip). 100% working, without weird cables sticking out of chassy, althought admitedly the sound quality isn't the best.
The experimental FPGA GA that i found had those weird cables sticking all around, and that was what vexed me.
Quote from: twox on 18:49, 14 February 19
Id give it a year or two.I already seen a AY-8912A FPGA replacement for original Speccy's, based on Atmega8 (a very small 5v chip). 100% working, without weird cables sticking out of chassy, althought admitedly the sound quality isn't the best.
The experimental FPGA GA that i found had those weird cables sticking all around, and that was what vexed me.
Probably still under development / cables for the programmer etc.
You usually use a development board for FPGA before you "go live" with your chip.
There is also a plug-in replacement for various Commodore chips, for example SID:
https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/SwinSID (https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/SwinSID)
Similar hardware exists for the BBC Micro (eg, the Speech Chip).
Quote from: twox on 18:49, 14 February 19
Id give it a year or two.I already seen a AY-8912A FPGA replacement for original Speccy's, based on Atmega8 (a very small 5v chip). 100% working, without weird cables sticking out of chassy, althought admitedly the sound quality isn't the best.
The experimental FPGA GA that i found had those weird cables sticking all around, and that was what vexed me.
Well it's not an FPGA replacement if it uses an ATmega8. It's an ATmega replacement :D . The AY would also be much easier to implement than a GA, just like the SID, the SPO256 and other chips have been made.
Bryce.
My AY arrived today. I'll be replacing tomorrow, because in my fucking village, which looks and feels like it just switched from thatching to tiles, there are no shops to buy desoldering wick.
You should have told me and I could have included some in the package.
Bryce.
Well, i look forward to replacing the AY the same way a convict waits for trial (and sound isn't that vital for playing around with MAXAM).. It will definitely clear some things out but may also fuck up everything. I already had a nightmare where i press a key andddddd ttttttttthhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiissss *coughs* happens. Good thing that the AY chip is not as small as those pesky RAM. Cheers
If you haven't read this before, then read it before you start your "conviction trial": http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/IC_Repair
DON'T try to remove the old IC in one piece, you will definitely damage the PCB, and that's not a good idea.
Bryce.
Youre not the only one that heard horror stories about people removing IC's by placing them above gas stoves..
Dont worry, i have read your guide more times than i have fingers. And, i still have 20 of them, despite that the fact that the rest for hot soldering iron i just bought tried to dec that amount.
(https://i.imgur.com/PyIf24L.jpg)
Is it normal to fuck up the first time?Now, when i turn the computer on i get all kinds of weird situations.. Weird characters appearing on screen, a loud hum from speakers (and the whistle did not change at all), keyboard not working, keyboard partially working or not at all, the sound is working or not. At least one time it worked as good as before, and that wouldn't be the case if i fucked up something else. I think that one of my solders is bad, the pin 14 doesn't have almost any solder on it.
I also noticed that my mainboard is sticky and has a white residue on it, i suspect that the "ethanol" i used to clean it has some additives. I will buy some proper isopropyl for cleaning electronics, and correct my solders. If this wont fix the issue, i am at risk of devoloping alcoholism.
Are the solders supposed to be big and pear-shaped? Because all of mine are small and flat, and in like 4-5 pins i still can see the inside of board. Truth to be told my hands were shaking like crazy and i wanted to finish the job ASAP, so applied very little solder.
Quote from: twox on 20:33, 21 February 19
I also noticed that my mainboard is sticky and has a white residue on it, i suspect that the "ethanol" i used to clean it has some additives. I will buy some proper isopropyl for cleaning electronics, and correct my solders. If this wont fix the issue, i am at risk of devoloping alcoholism.
If this is your first time using a soldering iron, then I'd suggest to start with something more simple first, or let somebody else do the the job.
For the cleaning, take out the whole board, turn on the shower with WARM WATER, a clean soft brush, some liquid soap, and shrub it down. When clean, shake of as much water as you can, put it on a towel, and then use the hair dryer. This procedure works best for thorough cleaning of a f****** motherboard.
The only thing that can get negatively effected by that are some old electrolytic capacitors, which need replacement anyways.
Sounds like your solder joints aren't good. You should not be able to see into the hole if it's done properly.
Here's a one page guide...
Bryce.
There should also be a YouTube video somehwere....
I really hate to bring news this bad...
The repair was botched completely, but at least it was not completely my fault. Initially i mistakenly made like 3-4 bridges (nothing you couldn't save), but then the person who i asked to help almost dragged me out of the chair and tried to proceed with the repair. Results - at least 1 track pulled out of PCB like a thread from fabric, at least 4 scratched, God knows how many burned, and like 1/2 of the copper sleeves inside of PCB (i dont know how they are called) missing. The only hope of repair is to wire the thing together, good thing that there are schematics. The AY's original place in the board is broken beyond any sensible repair (at least for me). I fell like a let down, i managed to make a problem even worse than it was (and injured myself in the process of doing so)... At least there is one good news - the AY isn't the culprit of whining.
Will wiring it together do any good?
Seems your CPC is ripe now to receive the miracles of Bryceification (if he accepts it) :D
Quote from: LambdaMikel on 18:14, 22 February 19
Seems your CPC is ripe now to receive the miracles of Bryceification (if he accepts it) :D
This definitely would be one of the messiest jobs..
I fell like shit for having to do it 2nd time... Especially that what he would see upon opening the packet would be the effect of EXACTLY what he have just told NOT to do (aka unsoldering from the bottom). I told the person that tried to help me that the tracks are going to be raped, but by that point i was iterchangeably hyperwentilating and panicking, and couldn't do anything to stop it (because the helper had much more experience in soldering, and i had none - therefore my voice didn't count). To recap the whole botched job;
- I cut all the pins of old AY
- I remove the old solder and clean the sockets with desoldering pump
- I solder in the socket and put in the AY, by that point the fault was some bad joints
- I tried to correct it once, but without any effect
- I tried to correct it once again, but this time i accidentally created some bridges between the board and body of the socket (solder leaked thru the hole when i was soldering)
- My helper took the job, and decided to remove the socket completely
- He tried to unsolder it from the bottom to no avail, burning all solders and possibly the traces leading to them
- He ripped it out with pliers, destroying from 3/4 to all holes and severing 3-6 traces.
Try not to get "help" from that person any more, I think he is overstating his electronics skills. I have no problem with you sending me the PCB again if that's what you choose to do.
Bryce.
Oh. :picard:
Your PCB just arrived. For anyone who didn't get my message: Never unsolder an entire chip from the bottom unless it's a single sided PCB. And this is why.
Bryce.
Not that the bottom of the board looks any better. Not a single via survived. Work ahead, iron fired up...
Bryce.
Well, now my only option is to beg pardon..But in exchange (that also counts as part of VERY GOOD DEAL), you can use those images in your IC desoldering tutorial as an example of what happens if you try some counterintuitive (and counterproductive) means of repair. :P
True. I've started fixing it up tonight, but it's a long job, so I won't be finished for a few days. Then I'll post a picture of the repaired board. All repairable by the way.
Bryce.
Well it's back to a working state again. From the top it looks like new. From the bottom less so. ::)
I'll try to hook up some sort of amplifier and see if I can find the whining noises now.
Bryce.
@Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225)
Ahhhh Al Dente.
Well done. Youch.
Very neatly laid out
Well done
Ray
It doesnt have to look good, it is a veteran now!I think it deserves a DDI disk drive now - i'll have to spend some more money.Thanks and Cheers
Have you identified the whine? I was using a old cheap speakers and it was hearable so you needn't test beyond that. With external speakers it wasn't that bad tbh - there was a volume where the correct sound were hearable and well although quite quiet, and the whine wasn't hearable at all.
I'll hopefully get around to it this wekend.
Bryce.
WAW! Kudos @Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225) that is a hell of a repair.A good case of Verschlimmbesserung!
How is the chip now held in? was there anything there to solder back on to hold it in place?
This is a good lesson for me seeing this. I started tinkering with some broken amiga 500's that need work. So, if I make them worse it's not the end of the world.
I didn't know about de-soldering from the back, although, i'm not sure how i'd get the capacitors out without doing so as there is no access from the top. Also, the negative soaks up all the heat when trying to de-solder that side.
ANYWAY i'm off on a tangent again, as I always do.Would love to see the end result!
Quote from: geebus on 14:20, 09 March 19
WAW! Kudos @Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225) that is a hell of a repair.A good case of Verschlimmbesserung!
How is the chip now held in? was there anything there to solder back on to hold it in place?
This is a good lesson for me seeing this. I started tinkering with some broken amiga 500's that need work. So, if I make them worse it's not the end of the world.
I didn't know about de-soldering from the back, although, i'm not sure how i'd get the capacitors out without doing so as there is no access from the top. Also, the negative soaks up all the heat when trying to de-solder that side.
ANYWAY i'm off on a tangent again, as I always do.Would love to see the end result!
Soldering from the back is only important when you're talking about components with many pins. With capacitors, you usually pull one pin at a time and there is no issue. The socket in this case has no solderable holes that could hold it in place, so the socket was held in place with superglue plus the fact that I bent all the pins. Otherwise it's technically floating.
Bryce.
I really like the layout of the blue cables, it looks really neat and cool! :D
So twox... I proded your board with some pointy things and even waved a nearfield probe over the surface. Whatever whining you can hear isn't coming from this PCB. I suspect that the issue is on the tapedeck PCB. Probing the outputs of channels A/B/C gives the normal random mid-frequency hum that all CPC's (all AY's to be exact) give off, but not louder than expected (around 40mV at highest peak) and they are all random, no pattern that could cause a tone. The second test was to see if anything else was transmitting a whine that could be picked up by other components, but the spectrum shows just the two expected peaks at 2Mhz and 4Mhz which are harmonics of the main clock.
As a very last test, I'll see if I can find my signal tracer and prode around the board for audible tones. (assuming I can find it)
Bryce.
If you couldn't detect anything abnormal with devices i wouldn't even know how to turn on, id say its fair to call the job done. I will try to fullfill my part of the deal within next 2 days. Cheers
Quote from: Bryce on 09:20, 11 March 19
So twox... I proded your board with some pointy things and even waved a nearfield probe over the surface. Whatever whining you can hear isn't coming from this PCB. I suspect that the issue is on the tapedeck PCB. Probing the outputs of channels A/B/C gives the normal random mid-frequency hum that all CPC's (all AY's to be exact) give off, but not louder than expected (around 40mV at highest peak) and they are all random, no pattern that could cause a tone. The second test was to see if anything else was transmitting a whine that could be picked up by other components, but the spectrum shows just the two expected peaks at 2Mhz and 4Mhz which are harmonics of the main clock.
As a very last test, I'll see if I can find my signal tracer and prode around the board for audible tones. (assuming I can find it)
Bryce.
So whats going on about with the board?
Nothing. All tests that I've done came up negative for sources of whining, the problem must be on the tapedeck PCB. I'll send you a PM regarding the return.
Bryce.
THOSE FUCKING DHL WHORESONS BREAKED IT IN HALF! THOSE SATAN SPAWNS REPACKED IT, AND GUESS WHAT, I NOW HAVE A ANTIQUE COMPUTER BOARD BREAKED IN HALF... I NEED THE PACKAGE NUMBER LIKE RIGHT NOW...
IT IS GOOD ONLY FOR SPARES.. UNLESS YOU WANT TO MAKE A BOARD WITH 3 TIMES AS MORE CABLES THAN BOARD IN THICKNESS....
AND THE WORST THING, IT WAS NOT ME WHO RECEIVED THE PACKAGE.. IT WAS ACCEPTED WITHOUT CHECKING... NOW I DONT KNOW IF I CAN DO ANYTHING.
I am so fucking tired of it.. after all what happened, this is what happened to my family heirloom. What a fucking climax.https://imgur.com/a/jXvXyIs
SHIT! How the hell did they manage that. It was in a 5cm thick box with padding! That looks like it was done deliberately!
We need to find you a new board.
Bryce.
Ok Bryce.. I know you will have to look for the papers all around your quarters.. But please, i need every single detail i can get.It arrived repackaged.. the padding was gone and they half wittedly applied some bubble wrap.. how fucking generous. I will lay claim for the fuckers and demand as much as the most expensive CPC costs on ebay.
Is the barcode still on the parcel, that should be enough (with photos) to make a claim. I will check if I have the docket still.
If anyone here has an old 464 board they could donate, I will restore and send it to you to replace this mess. That board definitely isn't fixable.
Bryce.
Should i lay claim for DHL parcel or Deutsche post international?
Crazy stuff. I wonder how they managed to do that, seriously. You could definitely salvage some chips, though. At least the CPU, the RAM, etc. Sorry for that.
I'm not sure which it was sent with as they are merged into one company here in Germany. It says Deutschepost on the tape they added (that's not from me) so I assume it was handled by Deutschepost and they should be paying up. Your biggest issue will be convincing them of what it's worth. I had an Amiga A1200 board sent to me that never arrived and the Post ended up paying him just €20 despite him sending them links to ebay auctions showing the going rate.
Bryce.
I will show them the bank transfers i have done for your repairs. That will be at least something. On top of that, i will try my absolute hardest to have them give me as much as i can.
I can't believe they managed to snap a PCB clean in half. It would take a massive amount of force to break a PCB of that size. No amount of packaging would have saved it, they must have slammed a door on it or stood on it.
Bryce.
I talked to the person who received the package.. No receipt whatsoever was given.
Bryce, i need the waybill, whatever that is. I dont even know what it is but it appears to me that you should have that filled out somewhere.
The only thing I get is a small printed docket when I send things. A waybill is the document attached to the parcel when it arrives and is usually manually filled out. I didn't have to fill anything out.
Bryce.
Well, then it was fucking mistreated, because apparently nothing whatsoever arrived with the package.And, to make matters worse, i cant seem to find a complaint form for deutsche post in english...
I can't even find one in German!
Bryce.
Well, i think i have to ask you for one last favor - to file a complaint against those fuckers. I called my local post and they told that the sender needs to file the complaint. I think that if you go to the local post that you have sent from, they will guide you. Moreover, with the un-ability to file complaints online for deutsche post i think its the only option (and i dont know German, so my options are severely limited).I can provide to you all photos i have taken of the package. It looks like some motherfucker stomped on it with his dirty boots (dirt mark is clearly visible to be shoe-shaped).All details of the package are visible, including the stamps with those QR codes.
I think that they should give me at least 350Euro in return, because if that wont buy me a original replacement, i think it would be enought for Piotr to design and make me a replacement (with an internal DDI ::) )
I agree that looks deliberate. I never heard of a case like this before, and I think it is extremeley unlikely that DHL is responsible for that... and you would have seen damage on the outside of the parcel...
Do you have a good relationship with the mail man and/ or the person who received the parcel for you?
Good luck with the DHL complaint... let us know if you succeed with that, I think that's unlikely.
Personally, I would spend 350 EUR for a real CPC ;)
I must say this case is getting extremely weird... almost to weird to be believable.
I also think that these post should be banned for offensive language
@Gryzor (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1)
Actually, i believe that the damage was done in Germany. The deutsche post have applied an additional "protection" layer in form of a plastic bag. (the original box was ripped open) The bag had a printed something like "Unfortunately this package was damaged. Plastic bag was provided by deutsche post". How fucking generous. Give me a bank number so i will pay for that really expensive plastic bag, that far exceeds a 30 year old computer in value.Both the postman and the person who received it are on very good terms with both themselves and me.
Quote from: twox on 18:18, 27 March 19
Actually, i believe that the damage was done in Germany. The deutsche post have applied an additional "protection" layer in form of a plastic bag. (the original box was ripped open) The bag had a printed something like "Unfortunately this package was damaged. Plastic bag was provided by deutsche post". How fucking generous. Give me a bank number so i will pay for that really expensive plastic bag, that far exceeds a 30 year old computer in value.Both the postman and the person who received it are on very good terms with both themselves and me.
Why the heck would they do that...
I must say I feel sorry for Bryce that he did all that work...
Anyhow, not my can of worm. Good luck!
I also couldn't believe that. But the facts are that the package was repacked in Germany and had a plastic bag applied.
The dirt mark is 99% from stomping on it, and when i unpacked it it was literally bent 180 degress over the crack. I genuinely cant think of any accident that could cause this - some idiot needed to break it in half, insert it bent, then additionally stomp on it.. id split his head in two with an axe if id met him.
I dont intend to commit insurance fraud, i dont intend to give anyone a business of 350Euro just for the sake of it. My family heirloom was destroyed, my words and feels are genuine, and i dont deserve to be accused of any of this. I have no reason whatsoever to destroy it myself, neither had the postman or the person who received it for me (and that i am sure of), and neither did Bryce, i think he'd cringe even thinking about damaging it in any way possible. I also dont want to just buy a new CPC with the money, when i still have an option to fix my one. That why i am on lookout for new boards. If an original comes up for cheaper, i'd buy that. But i am aware that finding one wont be easy, thats why i am trying to secure myself funds for an new replacement. And the only person i can think of who could get me one was Piotr.. so theres that. If you have other suggestions you are welcome
You must have a personal enemy @DHL.
Well, if the supplied bag already states that it was broken, then reimbursement should be a no brainer, right?
Quote from: twox on 18:30, 27 March 19
I also couldn't believe that. But the facts are that the package was repacked in Germany and had a plastic bag applied.
The dirt mark is 99% from stomping on it, and when i unpacked it it was literally bent 180 degress over the crack. I genuinely cant think of any accident that could cause this - some idiot needed to break it in half, insert it bent, then additionally stomp on it.. id split his head in two with an axe if id met him.
I dont intend to commit insurance fraud, i dont intend to give anyone a business of 350Euro just for the sake of it. My family heirloom was destroyed, my words and feels are genuine, and i dont deserve to be accused of any of this. I have no reason whatsoever to destroy it myself, neither had the postman or the person who received it for me (and that i am sure of), and neither did Bryce, i think he'd cringe even thinking about damaging it in any way possible. I also dont want to just buy a new CPC with the money, when i still have an option to fix my one. That why i am on lookout for new boards. If an original comes up for cheaper, i'd buy that. But i am aware that finding one wont be easy, thats why i am trying to secure myself funds for an new replacement. And the only person i can think of who could get me one was Piotr.. so theres that. If you have other suggestions you are welcome
I should not have said this... apologies for this, but the case is so weird that it made me a bit suspicious I must say.
I can sell you a new 464 board if you like. PM me.
PM sent.
Quote from: Bryce on 15:02, 27 March 19
I can't even find one in German!
Bryce.
On the German Webpage its here: https://www.dhl.de/de/privatkunden/hilfe-kundenservice/sendungsverfolgung/probleme-loesungen.html# (https://www.dhl.de/de/privatkunden/hilfe-kundenservice/sendungsverfolgung/probleme-loesungen.html#)
And googling around with google translate it seems to be here for dhl poland https://www.dhlparcel.pl/pl/dla-ciebie/obsluga/kontakt/reklamacje.html (https://www.dhlparcel.pl/pl/dla-ciebie/obsluga/kontakt/reklamacje.html)
Twox, can you send me all the photos to my e-mail address (I'll send you the address via PM). I'll go to the post office tomorrow and open a claim.
Bryce.
Two things I must add to this thread:
-wow
-please watch your language.
Thank you.
I now have no doubt that the damage was done deliberately. The board was broken in half and half of it rotated 180 degrees over the crack - this would be impossible if just damaged by accident. Then it was injected, bent 180deg, back into the destroyed box. I know it is hard to believe, but all i state are just facts. I have photos of how it looked (i will send them along bank details). This makes the case a criminal offence.
Quote from: twox on 20:34, 28 March 19
I now have no doubt that the damage was done deliberately. The board was broken in half and half of it rotated 180 degrees over the crack - this would be impossible if just damaged by accident. Then it was injected, bent 180deg, back into the destroyed box. I know it is hard to believe, but all i state are just facts. I have photos of how it looked (i will send them along bank details). This makes the case a criminal offence.
Shame the picture is not visible anymore, probably not worth even thinking about criminal offence type stuff just get the claim done and keep and eye out for a replacement, buying a whole machine and swapping the board if you are hung up on the case. Things get broken in the post although not that often, maybe it got run over, maybe it got jammed in a machine who knows you will probably never find out and not worth getting yourself worked up too much about, it's only an object and its happened.
When it arrived it was packed in such a way, that post workers COULDN'T not notice that it was completely destroyed. Even if it was an accident, which is HIGHLY unlikely, they still forwarded me a completely destroyed package.
Well, as my board is good for nothing, i think its a good time to learn unsoldering chips. This time, without cutting pins.