Distanzierung

[Devilmarkus]

Hiermit distanziere ich mich Öffentlich von der Bannung von Kangaroo Musique.
Der Bann ist absolut nicht mit meiner Meinung kompatibel und zeigt, dass private Angelegenheiten im Forum ausgelassen werden.

Somit habe ich Gryzor auch darum gebeten, mir meinen Admin-Status zu entziehen.
Natürlich bleibe ich dem Forum erhalten, werde mich aber aus allen Regeltechnischen Angelegenheiten ab sofort komplett heraushalten.

Gruss,
Markus

[Gryzor]

Well, since it was so important to you, the ban was lifted. But it's really funny that you would NOT consider Kangaroo's (or others'...) attacks personal, yet you consider my *reaction* to them as such. So sure, let him insult me again, and try to falsify truth again, because of course that's not personal. Great.

[Gryzor]

Sure.  Because, time and again,  you insist on attacking me here. It's not enough for you to try to attack and ridicule me constantly in your blog like you have no better things to do, you insist on bringing it here. I couldn't care less about elsewhere, but this community will stay clean of personal issues. This goes for everyone, not just you.

And I don't think you'll find many communities where you're allowed to be a member even when you publicly attack an admin. Why would anyone tolerate that?

[Gryzor]

Erm... Of course not.  I ignore you,  as long as you don't attack me (or anyone else for that matter). that's the definition of moderating. *you* bring the personal stuff here,  not me. As a matter of fact,  half your posts are about me, and I don't care reading about your obsessions. And, of course, this doesn't say much about the level of your contributions.

To cut it short: wanna play nice, you can stay. Wanna use this community (you or anyone else)  as your personal issue playground, the reaction will be moderation. Like with your signature, for instance-you really do like to provoke,  don't you?

Oh,  also,  you can't order anyone,  much as you'd like.

[Gryzor]

Pfft... Petty political philosophy. I'm afraid you have no idea about how an on-line community works or is managed. A forum is not a democracy. A forum is a self-contained community. As such, it has a subset of societal rules that are inherently restrictive.

No, it's not your (or anyone's) right to come in here and start mouthing off their opinion. Please do feel free to express your opinion about why QuickCMD is awesome or why SymbOS sucks big, but opinions on personal matters stay out of here. You have your personal site to address these issues. This community here is not a rostrum for people to say what they feel like. Simple as that. And, of course, I'm not going to allow advertising to sites attacking me or this effort. The mind boggles...

PS Also, please do change your avatar pic, I've received complaints about it.

[Devilmarkus]

Well, I think it's time for a little experiment now.
No-one has admin rights for at least 1 week.
So, a few people should find the time to TALK and not to make WAR.

Then, let's see, what happens...

[Gryzor]

What. On. Earth. Do you think you're doing? Not only is this a direct action against me (when you said you don't want to admin the forum any more...), but it's also dangerous and childish. Seriously, wtf?

[Devilmarkus]

What. On. Earth. Do you think you're doing? Not only is this a direct action against me (when you said you don't want to admin the forum any more...), but it's also dangerous and childish. Seriously, wtf?

Well look, it's just an experiment!
 I find, you should try to find another way first to keep the forum calm.
 But we can always change all back, so thats nothing dangerous...
 This has nothing to do with that I cooperate with someone or whatever.
 If this would be only my forum, I also would do the same.
 Come on man, lets do this experiment...

[Gryzor]

I really like how you talk about cooperation only when I perform admin duties and never when some member starts behaving like it's their kindergarten - and you call this neutrality. And not only that, you're being patronizing as hell.

Your idea about "keeping the forum calm" is to allow very few, very specific persons, come in here and insult, offend, attack  and troll - or be just plain crazy. Well, this is not it. And I'm really surprised how you see it as a good idea for an experiment - you'd have thought other people would have considered this all those years that forums exist; yet you see none with no admins.

Once again: please reinstate admin status immediately.

[Devilmarkus]

No worries, here's your status back...
I'm out...

[Gryzor]

Dear god...

[Devilmarkus]

Well i really don't understand you, Themis:
Leonie, who really posted really offensive material, has been moved to "Hall of shame" (Ok, I agree here, I would do the same just to see how the opponent reacts)
Kangaroo, who really did not write something personally against you (At least not in this forum) but "attacked" you slightly with ironic material, has been banned?

Sorry, but that does not match together, in any way.

[Gryzor]

Given your (plenty of) ironic and offending remarks and comments against Greeks in the past, I'd say it's insensitive and quite hypocritical to pretend it's sincere. Sorry, not everyone has such a short memory.

@Markus: who said that the Hall of Shame is a replacement for banning?

Plus, Kangaroo has been unbanned.

Plus, let me remind you that you thought that Leonie's posts were innocent and funny, and you even replied to him and continued the disaster.

[Gryzor]

Fortunately my memory is stronger than that, and I do remember your references to me and Greeks ever since 2009. So, once mor, I'll ask you: please change your avatar.

As for Leonie - PM him, or email him.

[Devilmarkus]

@Markus: who said that the Hall of Shame is a replacement for banning?

Well, as I said:

Ok, I agree here, I would do the same just to see how the opponent reacts

When Leonie posted, "kanga should put something into his......" this is REALLY offensive material...
This has nothing todo with ironic or sarcasm.
This is normally a reason to ban a person. (Yes, I told you to wait for the reactions, because you should give the members the possibility to react on things like this)

I of course also followed the postings from Kanga, but was really not able to find personal attacks.
Yes, he writes in a very sarcastic and ironic style, but thats nothing bad I find...
What do you prefer?
A person, who says "yeah gryzor is great, he's the best, you are right, you are perfect"?
Or a person, who also can critizise you? (Ok, the critics really came in an offensive way I also told to Kanga)

You really should tolerate people better...
I know myself and I know I also do hard with this, but really, you 2, Kanga & you, should discuss a few things (Outside this forum!!!)
Well I for myself can say, I called him by phone and we talked a looooong time.
We also talked about you, Themis, but Kanga did not talk any time bad about you!
He only can't understand your handling...
So why not sit together (in a virtual way) and talk?

About his Avatar: Sure he provocates YOU a bit, and?
Who cares? I also like Greek...
Just you feel provocated because the previous things what happened.
But you really should (at least!) try to forget all this bullshit, what happened.
We are living in NOW and what happens tomorrow, and not in, what happened ages ago...

Nun auch mal ein paar Worte an das Kanga:
Also meine Meinung ist:
Sicherlich kann ich absolut nachvollziehen, dass Du eventuell wütend bist, nicht verstehst was hier passiert usw usw usw.
Allerdings ist Deine Art und Weise, wie Du das dem Gryzor mitteilst, schon recht heftig, vor allem, weil ihr 2 unterschiedlichen Nationalitäten angehört.
Da ist ganz einfach die Kultur viel zu unterschiedlich, als dass der Eine oder Andere auch wirkliche "Ironie" versteht.

At least:
IF you 2 find a way to communicate in a peaceful way, I am also happy to re willing to be an administrator here.

[Gryzor]

Long post there. Let's see.

So... we're going to distinguish btween REALLY offensive material and less offensive material? Who decides that, and where are the lines drawn? Additionally, different people get offended by different things; and lastly, ten subtle, ironic comments may be worse than a single, gross one.

This is where principles come in -as a matter of principle, no offensive posts are allowed...

And, of course, I don't care for sucking up, and I have always welcomed decent critique - like Kangaroo's latest comments that are civil and true.

About tolerance: you forget that, although there is a tiny percentage of members who have caused problems before, these very few people have caused BIG trouble. And, do you remember blocking entire IP ranges from the wiki and forum yourself?
   
About Kangaroo's avatar: I've actually received complaints about it. I was always annoyed, but I let it be - but with the complaints I decided to do something.
   
As for trying to forget: for the umpteenth time, it is never me who brings this shit about. It's others (...) that just won't let things stay in the past and continue with comments, both in here and in their personal blogs. And this also goes to your comment about Kangaroo not saying anything bad about me on the phone. As I said, I don't care what people write or say in their spare time - just don't bring it here. Couldn't get more neutral about it. That's why, I think, after all TFM and me get along pretty well despite the ups and downs that have been. Heck, have you seen me posting ironic comments in Greek and then claim that they were not understood? Just a little common sense goes a long way...

[Gryzor]

The off-topic subforum is an extra, a concession to the facts that you covered - feel free to use it. Still - no personal attacks, innuendos, offenses or comments.

[Gryzor]

You're missing two points:

a. time and again (I've lost count) I've said that the offended person may not want or cannot retort. I'm trying to keep a civil atmosphere here and part of that is *preventing* retorts that will lead to situations out of hand. That's what moderation is about.
b. *I* was offended by Leonie's posting. You don't have to be the target of an offense to be offended; that is, if you're a sensitive, sensible human being.

So here's an idea I just had: let's open a different subforum for people to come and curse and offend others, not necessarily members of this community. So you could throw up your vile and bile about your wife, your boss, your neighbor... nice, eh? Just expanding on the idea...

[Gryzor]

Besides, who told you I haven't actually received reports about many of the offensive material posted here before I acted? And, in other occasions, I chose to ignore the reports because they were over the top or tried to calm people down. And, of course, let me remind you the reports about your avatar.

[Gryzor]

I didn't delete anything.

[MaV]

Besides, who told you I haven't actually received reports about many of the offensive material posted here before I acted?

Hm, I can see where this thread is going.

Gryzor, I do not want to burden you with too much work here, but why not publicly post the reason to the deletion, ban or similar? Particularly if it was reported by other users, this might lead to better understanding why it happened.

Personally, I like the idea of Ostrakismos to ban people, though I guess that's too much for a forum where most just look for a few minutes for games or hardware and the like. And the system itself can be abused if not exerted with care.

[Devilmarkus]

Well, posting as guest seem to be impossible now, so I just reactivated my user account (For this reply!)

To you both: Gryzor and Kanga:
- Gryzor: I can understand you because what had happened long time ago and also because Kanga's "behaviour". (fact)
- Kanga: Your behaviour here is really no good way to find a solution between you 2. You really should calm a bit down, too...
- As long you 2 don't find an appropiate solution for this, my account will be erased.

I will explain you, why:
I cannot agree with Gryzor, because his behaviour is very "pissed-off-because-i-personally-don't-like-kangaroo".
But I also can't agree with Kangaroo, because his behaviour is very rude and offensive against Gryzor.

This is like a Kindergarden, where one child has stolen the shovel from another!

You 2 are not dumb! You both are intelligent enough to find an acceptable solution for that!
Don't forget: we all share the same hobby here and nobody cares about Kanga loves Greeks or not... (I myself find it a bit funny, ok it is also a bit offensive but not too much)

About Leonie also a few words:
Bye Leonie!

Thats all guys,
come on now, don't be stupid and find a way out of this....

[Gryzor]

@Kangaroo: I didn't delete it. Either it was a freak accident by me or by yourself, or by the system, however it was not on purpose. However, since you keep ignoring my warning and requests I've deleted both your avatar and your signature - again. As I said, I will not tolerate promotion of offensive material.

@Mav: I'm not sure what you refer to exactly, there have been so many instances...?

@Markus: you keep ignoring what I have said, over and over again - namely, that I never start this; that Kangaroo keeps bringing it up. And yet you  keep telling me to back off... well, not taking sides sometimes *is* taking sides, you know...

[MaV]

@Mav: I'm not sure what you refer to exactly, there have been so many instances...?

I thought that the point about the reports of users when something offensive is posted, was where the thread is going. I was mistaken.

I don't think that this thread is going anywhere. Please, people, chill out and let's return to other topics!

@Kangaroo: Gryzor has not banned you. Can we call an end to this debate and leave things be?

[Gryzor]

I thought that the point about the reports of users when something offensive is posted, was where the thread is going. I was mistaken.

I don't think that this thread is going anywhere. Please, people, chill out and let's return to other topics!

Ah, ok I see what you mean.