"3.5 inch USB SSD Floppy Drive Emulator 1.44MB": Could this be a Poor Man's HxC?

[TFM]

You have absolutely no respect for the amount of work and dedication that ...

Well, I do agree with that. It's true for all hardware made with passion. Sadly the software side get's forgotten too often. Also the software side does deserve respect. An this is also true for everybody dedicating his / her spare time to the CPC f.e.

[Bryce]

Well, I do agree with that. It's true for all hardware made with passion. Sadly the software side get's forgotten too often. Also the software side does deserve respect. An this is also true for everybody dedicating his / her spare time to the CPC f.e.

Yes, in fact it's much worse for the software guys. The hardware guy has at least something physical to sell, which people then put an imaginary value on (usually and wrongly based on the price of a Chinese device that gets churned out of a factory in their thousands). For software then expect it to be free for some reason, despite the work that went into it.

This is also one of the reasons I release all my schematics. If you don't like the price, build it yourself. As many have done, but usually because they want to build something and not because of the price.

Bryce.

[redbox]

For software then expect it to be free for some reason, despite the work that went into it.

That's cos all software should be free 

[Jeff_HxC2001]

That's cos all software should be free 

And why exactly ? Please argument.

Today the software represent more than 80% of the work of such project...

Connecting stuffs on an MCU is quite easy... Make the whole thing working by software reliably is another story and can take an huge load of time...

How you will pay your developers ?
By donation ?  (reminder about the donations : OpenSSL, a library used by everyone today, got 2000$ per years...  )

How do you expect to motivate any developer to do something interesting with such reasoning? (on any plateform...)

[ralferoo]

I've got to agree here. Consider the work that's gone into my CPC FPGA project that's been variously known as CPC2012, CPC2013, etc as it's been an ongoing project for several years now...

Despite never having done any electronics since I was about 10 (and that was pretty basic stuff), I've built 2 revisions of my FPGA board and apart from a few very minor things, each revision has worked pretty much perfectly. The first board took about 3 days to make the schematic and about 7 weeks to layout (!) although that was mostly because it was my first ever board layout. The second board took about 2 weeks to layout, and no doubt a future revision will be quicker still.

Despite that, the actual software to run on the chip took about 6 months for everything but the disk emulation, and I've been programming professionally for 2 decades, so I know my stuff. And what's more, the disk emulation was a real sod. I had something that was almost right, but it wasn't good enough, so I've started again a number of times. All told, I've spent about a year just on the disk emulation alone (and I'm about to start again as I'm still not happy with what's there). Even though I don't own one, I don't at all begrudge Jeff and Lotharek for charging for HxC because I know how much work that thing represents.

Already there have been a number of people asking if I can "just port my code" to some other FPGA random board (that I don't even own, as I only own 1 FPGA board that I haven't built myself and it's a very uncommon one) and of course, expecting that if I do, the code will be free.

So, yes, when I eventually sell my FPGA boards, the hardware will be most of the cost (because producing hardware on a small scale is expensive) and I'd only expect to get a small profit on each board, but actually despite it being a physical thing, the software is really where all the hard work is. This is the real reason the chinese cloners can turn stuff out so cheaply - if they can clone the device, getting the original software working on it is usually trivial.

[Bryce]

But Jeff, the software is invisible, why should anyone pay for it?

@ralferoo: Despite you not having done electronics since you were 10, the schematic and layout are pretty good, especially for such a complicated PCB. I'm sure you learnt a lot and had fun doing it.

Bryce. (proud owner of 3 of Jeffs HxCs although I could have built them myself)

[ralferoo]

@ralferoo: Despite you not having done electronics since you were 10, the schematic and layout are pretty good, especially for such a complicated PCB. I'm sure you learnt a lot and had fun doing it.

Definitely, the learning was one of the main reasons for wanting to design my own board rather than just buying someone else's. Of course, there were other reasons too - I wanted joystick ports and SCART, and I didn't think any of the common FPGA boards at the time represented good value for money.

But yeah, making hardware is a lot of fun! ... and also incredibly frustrating sometimes trying to figure out why something isn't quite working! 

[redbox]

And why exactly ? Please argument.
How you will pay your developers ?
By donation ?  (reminder about the donations : OpenSSL, a library used by everyone today, got 2000$ per years...  )
How do you expect to motivate any developer to do something interesting with such reasoning? (on any plateform...)

You "pay" developers if you (and they) believe in a capitalistic model.  If you don't, then they may do it simply for the advancement of intellect, sharing of knowledge etc. and this in turn becomes your motivation.  And before anyone dismisses this, think of Open Source, Linux, the Internet... many people do write software for reasons other than financial gain.

But before you all flame me, I'm not supporting the either argument as I'm firmly on the fence and believe it's personal choice.  I understand that if a project gets scaled up due to demand (like the HxC) then it might well become someone's livelihood and hey, they've got to live somewhere and eat which all costs money...!

However, it's always good to consider other ways of doing things and think outside the box a little bit

[Jeff_HxC2001]

I've got to agree here. Consider the work that's gone into my CPC FPGA project ...

Thanks for sharing your experience.
I can tell almost the same for some of my projects too.

[Jeff_HxC2001]

But Jeff, the software is invisible, why should anyone pay for it?

But it's spirit & behaviour is visible isn't it  ? 

[Neil79]

Actually rather than cause a further argument, I'll just leave this here

Perhaps "rip off" was too harsh but It's just too expensive imo especially when you have to factor in everything else ( Shipping, connection cables etc )

those HxC are expensive but it is a well known and reliable technology with a real support from the builder.

[MaV]

You "pay" developers if you (and they) believe in a capitalistic model.  If you don't, then they may do it simply for the advancement of intellect, sharing of knowledge etc. and this in turn becomes your motivation. And before anyone dismisses this, think of Open Source, Linux, the Internet... many people do write software for reasons other than financial gain.

Well, it's a bit dated:
75% of Linux code now written by paid developers - APC

And once your motivation is lost, you're hoping for someone else to take up the project, or it will go the way of the dodo. That's not how Linux gained momentum and established itself.

That said, I'm not criticising the basic sentiment of yours.

[Jeff_HxC2001]

You "pay" developers if you (and they) believe in a capitalistic model.  If you don't, then they may do it simply for the advancement of intellect, sharing of knowledge etc. and this in turn becomes your motivation.

advancement of intellect, sharing of knowledge... Nice but it is something eatable ? Can we lived only with this ?

And before anyone dismisses this, think of Open Source, Linux, the Internet... many people do write software for reasons other than financial gain.

Linux, Internet, RPi & co : These projects was and are supported by big companies.

Finally few people are working on their own time :

http://gcn.com/Articles/2009/04/20/Linux-funding-sources.aspx

(In french)
Le libre n'est pas gratuit, il faut financer la R&D | Le Cercle Les Echos

And here is what happen when these companies doesn't do the funding correctly :
Tech giants, chastened by Heartbleed, finally agree to fund OpenSSL | Ars

<<That's never been the case with OpenSSL, but the Linux Foundation wants to change that. The foundation today is announcing a three-year initiative with at least $3.9 million to help under-funded open source projects—with OpenSSL coming first. Amazon Web Services, Cisco, Dell, Facebook, Fujitsu, Google, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, NetApp, Qualcomm, Rackspace, and VMware have all pledged to commit at least $100,000 a year for at least three years to the "Core Infrastructure Initiative," Linux Foundation Executive Director Jim Zemlin told Ars.>>

Business models for open-source software - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Free software doesn't mean free of charge, and there is a lot of money in this story...

BTW : The HxC software sources are available on sourceforge since years now... :
HxC Floppy Drive Emulator | Free Development software downloads at

[Jeff_HxC2001]

Well, it's a bit dated:
75% of Linux code now written by paid developers - APC

And once your motivation is lost, you're hoping for someone else to take up the project, or it will go the way of the dodo. That's not how Linux gained momentum and established itself.

That said, I'm not criticising the basic sentiment of yours.

+1

[Bryce]

But it's spirit & behaviour is visible isn't it  ? 

No, I turned them off in the Config file

Bryce.

[Jeff_HxC2001]

No, I turned them off in the Config file

Bryce.

[MaV]

Perhaps "rip off" was too harsh but It's just too expensive imo especially when you have to factor in everything else ( Shipping, connection cables etc )

And this is why the product from China is produced so cheaply:
Cheap labor, inhuman labor conditions, environmental pollution (in China), mass production, mass shipment (across the world), unknown quality (likely to fail soon).
Plus some of the plastic are known to contain unhealthy doses of cancerogenes (the smelly chinese ones especially), you can bet that a cheap product will likely contain more of it.

Oh yes, and please do me the favour and try to contact your Chinese manufacturer once the device fails to ask for help.

[CraigsBar]

For what its worth. My hxc was far from a rip off. And although I have since sold the Amiga 1200's that shared it with the cpcs it was still worth every cent. Excellent work HxC keep it up!

[TFM]

This is also one of the reasons I release all my schematics. If you don't like the price, build it yourself. As many have done, but usually because they want to build something and not because of the price.

Bryce.

Well, we all are on a very special planet. Not because there is some kind of life. It's because we all have the freedom of choice.    We can freely decide if we buy a product or not... this decision is given to us and we are totally free in that. But bitching a "too high" prices is imho not good manners, if a price is too high then I just don't buy 

You "pay" developers if you (and they) believe in a capitalistic model.

Ok Redbox. Since I respect you for a variety of reasons, this will give me a hard time to not get misunderstood as being offensive. 

Well, if somebody pays my rent, my food, my JD, my clothes and my small thing in life I need, then please consider everything what I can program free. Thanks God I don't make my money as coder. If this would be the case I would either starve to death or get killed by people who are upset for paying $1 for my software. 

Seriously I appreciate your point of view, but if something shall be free, then EVERYTHING shall be free. Right?

In Germany we have a nice saying: If you are no communist at age of 18, you got no heart. And if you're still a communist at age 21, then you got no brain. 

[dcdrac]

I Have always seen that saying about being a communist or socialist patronising and condescending the same could be said for conservatives in a slightly different way it would still be patronising.

[ralferoo]

[ Potentially off topic, partially on topic! ]

It may come across as a patronising point of view, but it also raises a valid point. It's easy to be idealistic when you're young, and even more so when you're poor or a student then "everything should be free" (as in beer) is a wonderful POV. But as you start along your working life that view generally becomes less popular and people become more conservative (as in less socialist).

Sometimes, people see the value effort they put into their work and can empathise with the work others do and so think that the work they do is just as valuable, sometimes people are blind to work done outside of their industry and don't appreciate the hardware. However, I would say:

In my experience, people who think all software should free tend to be people who don't write software for a living.
In my experience, people who think it's OK to bittorrent films tend to be people who don't make films for a living.
In my experience, people who think it's OK to bittorrent TV tend to be people who don't make TV for a living.
etc...

It's especially easy to get into the mindset that because something can be distributed at zero cost that it cost nothing to make, more so when there are some people who are happy to give their things away for free, generally because they're doing it for fun.

It's also just a fact that people ascribe more value to a physical item than it's worth. You only have to look at the many, many Raspberry Pi cases on ebay that are selling for £5-£10.  People will happily pay that because they're getting something physical, even though it's an "open source" design made by adafruit, laser cut (the time would maybe cost 50p at a hackspace) and less than £1 worth of vinyl (I paid about £8 for 10 pieces, enough for about 15 Pi cases). So, that's about 200% profit on each case for someone who just took someone else's open source work and bought a laser cutter. Almost everyone with a Raspberry Pi has a case. How many of those do you think paid for the license to use the GPU codec drivers? Sure, not everybody wants to do video on the Pi, but I bet if those drivers were included in the price everybody would be using them. I'm equally sure that if the unlock key wasn't tied to each cheap, it'd be widely pirated.

[redbox]

My response wasn't supposed to be a suggestion that a socialist or communist model was the solution - I was merely saying we all live in a capitalist society and hence tend to think that way automatically without considering any alternatives.

I am not of any polticial persuasion - as I said, I'm firmly on the fence and it's down to the individual to decide. I also said that I understand people need to eat, live etc and that the 'product' they develop could support this.

But to say "we can all be idealistic when young but we become realistic as we age" is just such a weak argument and is just a form or self affirmation and trying to convince yourself that what you're doing is okay without putting too much thought into it.  Good sometimes to think of an alternative

[TFM]

offtopic too... sorry for that...


Students pay about $45.000 for each semester of Medicine (at Tulane, where I work), so I wouldn't consider them poor.


Thanks to all for sharing thoughts. It will help us to make the world a bit better and ever more fair. One day even for coders 

[yurif74]

SO after lot of months passed, is this project definitely dead? (gotek firmware for cpc)

[CraigsBar]

Well I think demand is quite low, the HXC kinda filled the market in the CPC world. Options are good, but IMHO the HxC is the better solution. So I'd choose the HxC as have many other people here.