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probably most of you heard about sd card reader cartridges like Everdrive and Powerpak - how simple would be having something alike available for GX4000?

Is that something like a HxC? Or more like an X-MEM?

The EverDrive (and other hack piracy systems) store the game ROMs files into a removable storage like CD, ZIP, CF, SD, USB pen, ... and an embedded program load the selected file into a RAM that is mapped on the ROM addresses. Then, put it write protected.
After that, you can play to the game... (with a bit of shame)

Generally, a passthrough connector with an original game plugged to it is needed to allow the system to access to the protection IC.

Quote from: TotO on 20:44, 18 August 14
The EverDrive (and other hack piracy systems) store the game ROMs files into a removable storage like CD, ZIP, CF, SD, USB pen, ... and an embedded program load the selected file into a RAM that is mapped on the ROM addresses. Then, put it write protected.
After that, you can play to the game... (with a bit of shame)

Generally, a passthrough connector with an original game plugged to it is needed to allow the system to access to the protection IC.

sorry that i couldn't understand the definition of "hack" and "piracy" you used... :S - the only ones i know are at:
Words to Avoid (or Use with Care) Because They Are Loaded or Confusing - GNU (https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Hacker)
Words to Avoid (or Use with Care) Because They Are Loaded or Confusing - GNU (https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Piracy)


actually this kind of sd reader cartridges are amazing for homebrew development (specially libre games, just like from Mojón Twins), this is what i believe these cartridges should be encouraged to be used for! ;)

Some kind of programmable cartridge would be amazing. I'd give anything to have something which could be used for testing cartridge code, but at the moment we just don't have anything like that available. So it's all down to emulators for the moment.

Quote from: TotO on 20:44, 18 August 14
The EverDrive (and other hack piracy systems) store the game ROMs files into a removable storage like CD, ZIP, CF, SD, USB pen, ... and an embedded program load the selected file into a RAM that is mapped on the ROM addresses. Then, put it write protected.
After that, you can play to the game... (with a bit of shame)

Generally, a passthrough connector with an original game plugged to it is needed to allow the system to access to the protection IC.

Well, really the everdrives work with systems that no need hack it. I mean you can take a snes game cartridge change the rom, as the gx4000, and play it in snes.

Except to regions protections,  These systems not need to be "hacked", but you need this type of cartridge as the console only acepts cartridges.

I't not the same as chips of the sony consoles. When the modchips hack the bios of console intercepts code in the bus etc...

I think hack piracy systems are not correct in case of krizz cartridges.Anyway, sega and nintendo simply ignore these cartridges to her old systems, because they no lost money with it.

Hacking morals are up to the owner. The real problem here is: Everdrives for SNES / Mastersystem / Gameboy or whatever... All these systems have a huge library of games that require an SD card and the associated (expensive) hardware needed to control it. So an SD based system makes sense. The GX4000 has less than 20 games! A simple MultiCart with selection software is all you'd need.

Bryce.

Quote from: nitrofurano on 20:20, 18 August 14
probably most of you heard about sd card reader cartridges like Everdrive and Powerpak - how simple would be having something alike available for GX4000?

you talk about the thing that everyone wants but nobody seems to have made. It is the thing of dreams!

there has been many talks of various programmable gx4000 cartridges and even talk of making real cartridges with real cases.

Ultimately nothing happens which is really sad. I really want to see real gx4000 cartridges, real cases, and a real programmable cart!

It would be great.

To help this aim I did the following:
- I converted Stryker and the crypts of trojan to work on cartridge which involved me patching it to work better with joystick and GX4000's "P" for pause.
- I also worked on a cartridge version of Blue Angel 69 - which I haven't released yet! (it has changed colours and a new title screen but I didn't modify it to use sprites or other hardware because of lack of time and motivation to do that).
- I released a template for openoffice for making labels to put on cartridge cases and a template for a cartridge booklet based on the original.
- I measured the cartridge case.

I can't help with the hardware or cases because I don't know how to do that otherwise I would have done that by now too.

Quote from: nitrofurano on 20:50, 18 August 14sorry that i couldn't understand the definition of "hack" and "piracy" you used... :S - the only ones i know are at:
Words to Avoid (or Use with Care) Because They Are Loaded or Confusing - GNU (https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Hacker)
Words to Avoid (or Use with Care) Because They Are Loaded or Confusing - GNU (https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Piracy)

That is bullshit to have a clear conscience.  :-\

When you play copyrighted games on a unofficial support, it is piraty.
When the way to do require a hardware that allow to fake the real system, it is a hack.

The problem to made a everdrive, is the gx4000 have a big flaw in the desing. In snes and the other consoles you can speak with the cartridge, you can save the games in the cartridges because the consoles can send/write information to it. So yo can tell to fpga format sd card, rename file in sdcard etc flash game from the sd to the memory flash... the gx4000 can only read the eeprom of the cartridge. So the aproach is different.

The interface is not a problem, as the host systems (GX4000 or PLUS) only require to read the ROM content and check the ASIC protection.
An "everdrive-like" cartridge is independent and can load from SD to RAM or FLASH w/o using the cartridge bus.

Quote from: nitrofurano on 20:50, 18 August 14
sorry that i couldn't understand the definition of "hack" and "piracy" you used... :S - the only ones i know are at:
Words to Avoid (or Use with Care) Because They Are Loaded or Confusing - GNU (https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Hacker)
Words to Avoid (or Use with Care) Because They Are Loaded or Confusing - GNU (https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Piracy)

Yeah, but "crackers" are the software crackers for me, forefathers of the demoscene. They have now changed the meaning to "bad hackers" or something. I don't like that, but it stayed.

Quote from: arnoldemu on 08:52, 19 August 14
you talk about the thing that everyone wants but nobody seems to have made. It is the thing of dreams!

there has been many talks of various programmable gx4000 cartridges and even talk of making real cartridges with real cases.

Ultimately nothing happens which is really sad. I really want to see real gx4000 cartridges, real cases, and a real programmable cart!

It would be great.

To help this aim I did the following:
- I converted Stryker and the crypts of trojan to work on cartridge which involved me patching it to work better with joystick and GX4000's "P" for pause.
- I also worked on a cartridge version of Blue Angel 69 - which I haven't released yet! (it has changed colours and a new title screen but I didn't modify it to use sprites or other hardware because of lack of time and motivation to do that).
- I released a template for openoffice for making labels to put on cartridge cases and a template for a cartridge booklet based on the original.
- I measured the cartridge case.

I can't help with the hardware or cases because I don't know how to do that otherwise I would have done that by now too.

I have designs finished for both a software controllable MultiCart and a writeable Cart for the Plus. The problem is finding time to build them.

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 08:35, 19 August 14
Hacking morals are up to the owner. The real problem here is: Everdrives for SNES / Mastersystem / Gameboy or whatever... All these systems have a huge library of games that require an SD card and the associated (expensive) hardware needed to control it. So an SD based system makes sense. The GX4000 has less than 20 games! A simple MultiCart with selection software is all you'd need.

That limits you to the existing titles though, some of us want to put new software on it! Frankly a cart with a ZIF socketed EPROM would be enough of a start!

Well, I'm not going into a discussion about Cracking and Copying here, because if I tell what I think I get banned again (that much about Knocking down the Hacienda ;-)). But on topic: Yes, there are few games at the moment, nevertheless if would be a great gain for development to have a cartridge which can take up new content easily. Menawhile we can use WinApe and other Plus emulators for that purpose.

Quote from: TFM on 17:55, 19 August 14
Menawhile we can use WinApe and other Plus emulators for that purpose.

If I trusted the Plus hardware not to be "quirky" in places not yet discovered, that'd be great. But I still recall losing a lot of time to trying to figure out the IM2 auto clearing bug. Being free to run tests on real hardware would be a boon.

Quote from: TotO on 20:44, 18 August 14
The EverDrive (and other hack piracy systems) store the game ROMs files into a removable storage like CD, ZIP, CF, SD, USB pen, ... and an embedded program load the selected file into a RAM that is mapped on the ROM addresses. Then, put it write protected.
After that, you can play to the game... (with a bit of shame)

Generally, a passthrough connector with an original game plugged to it is needed to allow the system to access to the protection IC.

I search it, yeh is true that some everdrive uses the fpga,and others uses de console cpu. Depend of the speed of the cpu console.

why you  need a passthrough?. If you uses a fpga, yo can emulate de acid inside with the other stuff,and you don't need an original cartridge.

Quote from: andycadley on 18:15, 19 August 14
If I trusted the Plus hardware not to be "quirky" in places not yet discovered, that'd be great. But I still recall losing a lot of time to trying to figure out the IM2 auto clearing bug. Being free to run tests on real hardware would be a boon.

That's of course right. I second you POV. And I also want to mention one thing about game development on Plus or CPC oG: One _really should_ return to real hardware on a _regular time base_ to check if the game (or App, or Demo) behaves the same as one sees on an emulator.


btw.: Is the above mentioned "bug" now emulated?

Quote from: dragon on 19:53, 19 August 14why you  need a passthrough?. If you uses a fpga, yo can emulate de acid inside with the other stuff,and you don't need an original cartridge.

Sure, it is a way to do that. (what I said is more the conventional way used by old devices for faking cartridge protections)

Quote from: andycadley on 17:37, 19 August 14
That limits you to the existing titles though, some of us want to put new software on it! Frankly a cart with a ZIF socketed EPROM would be enough of a start!

Why does that limit you to existing titles? A MultiCart or programmable Cart could hold new or old games?

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 08:55, 20 August 14
Why does that limit you to existing titles? A MultiCart or programmable Cart could hold new or old games?

I was under the impression you were suggesting just making a cart with the existing software on and some sort of selection menu, which is probably just me misinterpreting your comment.

Well that would be one possibility, but the medium is an EPROM, so there's nothing to stop you putting whatever you like on it.

Bryce.

Somebody somewhere just make some carts and cases so I can write some massive 512k plus games...


I must admit to being completely lost on the 184 cart threads each with various variants of cases, boards, roms, acids, fpgas, eeproms, eproms and cplds. The only thing they share in common is you cant buy/get any of them.


Does anyone actually have a cart board that can fit a rom and acid/fake acd chip that can plug into a plus/gx4000 and that can be easily produced for a reasonable price... say under 15 euros. Then perhaps we can all get together to solve the case issue even if that means lots of us cart nuts band together and put money into making a mould

if the electronics are possible this is a damn good idea

Quote from: Trebmint on 09:39, 21 August 14
Somebody somewhere just make some carts and cases so I can write some massive 512k plus games...


I must admit to being completely lost on the 184 cart threads each with various variants of cases, boards, roms, acids, fpgas, eeproms, eproms and cplds. The only thing they share in common is you cant buy/get any of them.


Does anyone actually have a cart board that can fit a rom and acid/fake acd chip that can plug into a plus/gx4000 and that can be easily produced for a reasonable price... say under 15 euros. Then perhaps we can all get together to solve the case issue even if that means lots of us cart nuts band together and put money into making a mould

count me in for that. I'd love too see some new 'real'  plus games.

I think we need a FAQ, because this question is more asked than the floppy rubber band in the spanish forums :P

In short, the ACID protection is well understood (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/ACID) and it has been cloned already; for example, the verilog implementation in the Miguel Angel's cartridge (http://www.zxprojects.com/index.php/analisis-del-chip-acid/62-analisis-del-chip-acid-del-amstrad-cpcgx4000), i have had his prototype in my hands and played to Pang in a GX4000 in the few last Retro Madrid events. But even before of that you could use one the Bryce's project as MITM (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/MITM), Multi Cart (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Multi_Cartridge) or DYI Cart (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/DIY_Cartridge).

Sure, those solutions are based in EPROMs, not the most friendly for testing code regularly. But you only need to take one of those projects with a PIC and SD reader for making this mythical "CPC+ Everdrive".

I can imagine another solution mainly for developers (users can use too), but that means you are going to need a CPC+ computer. We could work in making a new revision of the X-MEM, called Y-MEM?!?!?. It could be 512 KBs of ROM only (no need to add ram) and would support the RMR2 register for being able to use this expansion rom as a CPC+ cartridge. And as the X-MEM, you would able to burn these roms from the CPC (using floppies, miniboosters, ...). What the people thing about this last solution?

Call it +-MEM (rotating the X 45 degrees)

I feel that the CPC+/GX4000 cartridge games where never even close to showing the full potential of the CPC+/GX4000, so I would love to see some new CPC+/GX4000 cartridge games. I'm sure any new CPC+/GX4000 game would make headlines in various retro-gamer magazines and sites.

Whether it be on an Everdrive-like solution, or single-cartridge-per-game solution, doesn't really matter to me. Both options sounds awesome.
I would probably pay almost anything to get an everdrive/powerpak-like solution for my CPC+, especially if it resulted in developers developing new games for it.  :)

But the question of new cartridge games does come up more and more on the forum.
And I know the electronic gurus have replied plenty of times, and lots theoretical things are ready for production. So what's stopping us?
Is it time? Money? Something else?

If the electronic gurus on the forum can agree on a best-practice and best-standard, then just make a kickstarter project, or gimme a paypal address I can donate to.  :)

Quote from: SyX on 15:08, 21 August 14
I can imagine another solution mainly for developers (users can use too), but that means you are going to need a CPC+ computer. We could work in making a new revision of the X-MEM, called Y-MEM?!?!?. It could be 512 KBs of ROM only (no need to add ram) and would support the RMR2 register for being able to use this expansion rom as a CPC+ cartridge. And as the X-MEM, you would able to burn these roms from the CPC (using floppies, miniboosters, ...). What the people thing about this last solution?

We need a unit that acts exactly as the original cart did, including a case that slots and locks like the original gx4000 carts did. Obviously plastic cases that fitted this Y-Mem card is an expensive issue but I'm sure there are enough people that want this that we could club together to make it feasible.  Anything that required a cable / another connector is not really suitable IMHO

Quote from: mr_lou on 15:43, 21 August 14
I feel that the CPC+/GX4000 cartridge games where never even close to showing the full potential of the CPC+/GX4000, so I would love to see some new CPC+/GX4000 cartridge games. I'm sure any new CPC+/GX4000 game would make headlines in various retro-gamer magazines and sites.

Whether it be on an Everdrive-like solution, or single-cartridge-per-game solution, doesn't really matter to me. Both options sounds awesome.
I would probably pay almost anything to get an everdrive/powerpak-like solution for my CPC+, especially if it resulted in developers developing new games for it.  :)

But the question of new cartridge games does come up more and more on the forum.
And I know the electronic gurus have replied plenty of times, and lots theoretical things are ready for production. So what's stopping us?
Is it time? Money? Something else?

If the electronic gurus on the forum can agree on a best-practice and best-standard, then just make a kickstarter project, or gimme a paypal address I can donate to.  :)

I agree 100%. we just want to be buy/create games for the gx4000/plus. I assume the real issue is the plastic cases which costs several grand just to get a mould, but I think theres a lot of people that would support a kickstarter.


As a game developer I'd happily pre order 50 at 20 euros and I'm sure a lot of others would too

Quote from: Trebmint on 15:47, 21 August 14We need a unit that acts exactly as the original cart did, including a case that slots and locks like the original gx4000 carts did. Obviously plastic cases that fitted this Y-Mem card is an expensive issue but I'm sure there are enough people that want this that we could club together to make it feasible.  Anything that required a cable / another connector is not really suitable IMHO

Sure, but i'm speaking about a device for helping developers to make easier the testing in a real machine of new games, because i feel is the most important thing in this moment.

For publishing new cartridge games, i don't see any problems, it happens in consoles, C64, MSX, ... And TotO made already for the CTC-AY prototype, even the black CPC cartridge plastic cases and the cardboard boxes for making small runs (50 units minimum if i remember well).

They were not compatibles with the CPC+ slot, but only because we had good reasons: we wanted being able to save games and hi-scores in the cartridge; a system that worked in normal CPCs (bigger public and we feel the CPC has not seen its real potential yet); being able to use all the expansion bus pins for adding sound chips or other extras to the cartridge; ...

For a CPC+ you only need to add the Acid clone to the equation "board + eprom/flashrom + plastic cover" and that is enough... but the CPC/CPC+ problem is that there are not games supporting roms/cartridges  (it is a lot more than decrunch a binary to ram) and i think is silly wasting our little free time in making "Dinamic Greatest Hits" or another pack with old cpc games that we can load from tape, floppy or HD.

Quote from: SyX on 17:29, 21 August 14
Sure, but i'm speaking about a device for helping developers to make easier the testing in a real machine of new games, because i feel is the most important thing in this moment.

For publishing new cartridge games, i don't see any problems, it happens in consoles, C64, MSX, ... And TotO made already for the CTC-AY prototype, even the black CPC cartridge plastic cases and the cardboard boxes for making small runs (50 units minimum if i remember well).

They were not compatibles with the CPC+ slot, but only because we had good reasons: we wanted being able to save games and hi-scores in the cartridge; a system that worked in normal CPCs (bigger public and we feel the CPC has not seen its real potential yet); being able to use all the expansion bus pins for adding sound chips or other extras to the cartridge; ...

For a CPC+ you only need to add the Acid clone to the equation "board + eprom/flashrom + plastic cover" and that is enough... but the CPC/CPC+ problem is that there are not games supporting roms/cartridges  (it is a lot more than decrunch a binary to ram) and i think is silly wasting our little free time in making "Dinamic Greatest Hits" or another pack with old cpc games that we can load from tape, floppy or HD.

1. I've never heard of any cases actually produced.
2. There are no games as there's no way of distributing them.... build it and they will come. Actually a number of games are sitting waiting for real hardware i believe
3. Surely the market for X-Mem's is far smaller than a working game cart. You only sell 1 X-Mem to each hardware user... In theory you'd sell quite a few GX4000 carts for every game released.
4. If ToTo had a service that you could just send a ROM file and receive back a GX4000 cart at 20 euro's he'd have a lot of orders IMHO

Quote from: Trebmint on 17:52, 21 August 14
2. There are no games as there's no way of distributing them.... build it and they will come. Actually a number of games are sitting waiting for real hardware i believe

This is what I don't understand. Why not release the game anyway? Or are you hoping to make some money?

I could quite equally say there are no physical cartridges because there are no games.

The hen and the egg... let the circle be unbroken...


[ HiFi ] Will The Circle Be Unbroken Vol.2／Nitty Gritty Dirt Band／Johnny Cash／Ricky Skaggs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bRJLkNqNXI#)

Quote from: arnoldemu on 18:06, 21 August 14
This is what I don't understand. Why not release the game anyway? Or are you hoping to make some money?

I could quite equally say there are no physical cartridges because there are no games.

The insinuation is that anyone wanting to get a little bit of payment for doing hundreds of hours of work is a bad person.... Sell a copy of Switchblade for £59 euro... fine. Expect to get a few pints of beer out of many hours of work and years of knowledge.... bad. I fear that even if a cart is ever released its will cost almost as much to produce a game for than you can sell it for.
And actually just releasing something for free kind of devalues it... there's the attitude "Well what do you want for free!" and that reflects in the production values of software and you only have to look at the app market to see that. Is it too much to think I want the hardware to exist before coding? And if it was about the money I wouldnt have said lets crowdfund or offer to pre-order carts
Haha how is wanting a working gx4000 cart solution somehow a divisive issue? ???

Quote from: Trebmint on 17:52, 21 August 141. I've never heard of any cases actually produced.

The last time that i asked about making a mold for CPC+ cases, it was around 6.000 euros.

Our cases are compatible with another very popular system and we use the same mold that a company that release new games for that system. We saved a lot, sharing costs with them.

Quote from: Trebmint on 17:52, 21 August 14
2. There are no games as there's no way of distributing them.... build it and they will come. Actually a number of games are sitting waiting for real hardware i believe

There are no cartridge games, because nobody makes it. In every other system (NES, Neo Geo, MSX, C64, ...), the new homebrew games were made first; then they were made available for playing them in emulators; and for last, the people worked to make possible physical editions of them, first as hacking old cartridges and then making new ones.

Quote from: Trebmint on 17:52, 21 August 14
3. Surely the market for X-Mem's is far smaller than a working game cart. You only sell 1 X-Mem to each hardware user... In theory you'd sell quite a few GX4000 carts for every game released.

Sure, maybe i have not explained well, i was not speaking about give a new X-MEM to the people only wants to play. I was asking if there is a need of making an special X-MEM ("Y-MEM"); a device for testing easier the new games by developers, instead of burning eproms and after the game is well tested then they can launch their game in cartridges for people can enjoy them.

Quote from: Trebmint on 17:52, 21 August 144. If ToTo had a service that you could just send a ROM file and receive back a GX4000 cart at 20 euro's he'd have a lot of orders IMHO

Maybe and with enough time the cost of making the mold could be recovered with this service... aside of the 100 X-MEM sold, TotO is not making money, this is hobby for him and his interest is that every active CPC user get one.

But i think that this service only should be given for new games and only to the developer of the game in question or his permission, in other case we are entering in a gray zone of piratery, forgeries (in the spanish retro meetings is starting to appear of lot of those and selling with the price of original), ...

I think its fair to say that everybody has a different opinion.


1. In todays world we can now 3d print a case.... so rather than spending thousands on a mould and then being able to make cases for pennies we can consistantly make cases for 5 euros each. Pro printing shops cost between 20-40 pence per cubic centimeter


2. I think its fair to say the reason nobody creates + software is that its easier to say lets create CPC software as at least we can play it on real hardware. There are still CPC games created that might have been GX! And the machines you mention Neo, NES if you want to code you need to have carts. Theres no other option... The MSX is primarily a cart based system and cases were manufactured from the early 90's when it was still an economic machine. As for the c64 well they're just nuts for shades of brown and there's still loads of them around and the disc drives are still slower than tape.


3. I think the X-Mem and PlayCity are really cool bits of kit, but they are for people who want to play with hardware not games... if you need another board, connector or a ribbon its not a solution imho


4. Yes I agree its not worth doing if all it would be used for is pirated games with a few more colours. I wasnt really suggesting ToTo make these either, nor that he's becoming rich from the sales of X-mem :P ... but we need somebody with hardware knowledge

Quote from: Trebmint on 19:26, 21 August 14
1. In todays world we can now 3d print a case....

We can? Can you do that? If yes, I need 100!


- Irony on -

Quote from: Trebmint on 19:26, 21 August 143. I think the X-Mem and PlayCity are really cool bits of kit, but they are for people who want to play with hardware not games... if you need another board, connector or a ribbon its not a solution imho

I think the 664 and 6128 are really cool bits of kit, but they are for people who want to play with hardware not games... if you need another keyboard, floppies, disc-drives or a joystick (instead of cursor keys) its not a solution imho

- Irony off -

:)

Quote from: SyX on 18:36, 21 August 14
Sure, maybe i have not explained well, i was not speaking about give a new X-MEM to the people only wants to play. I was asking if there is a need of making an special X-MEM ("Y-MEM"); a device for testing easier the new games by developers, instead of burning eproms and after the game is well tested then they can launch their game in cartridges for people can enjoy them.

Trouble is, then you end up with a bunch of cartridge images that are compatible with the Y-MEM, but maybe aren't with the actual GX. That's something I think we'd all really rather avoid. It's also why I'm reluctant to write code for cartridge and just assuming it'll work OK because it works in an emulator. There's a certain amount you can still do by testing with disk based code and avoiding techniques that are cart specific, but then you might as well just target disk systems entirely.

I'm not convinced there is sufficient demand to make single game cartridges and actually make profit (though it might be a nice thing to have) but I do think it's necessary to have dev quality hardware (by which I mean it doesn't have to be super user friendly or easy to use, but doesn't require soldering skills either) before you can expect to see much software that takes advantage of it.

Quote from: Trebmint on 19:26, 21 August 14I think the X-Mem and PlayCity are really cool bits of kit, but they are for people who want to play with hardware not games... if you need another board, connector or a ribbon its not a solution imho

Using only the PLUS cartridge slot is not a solution, because you definitively exclude the CPC users.  :-\
A ROM board is perfect for making new games and playing old ones... Just see the ROM conversion topic or the ROM contest from last year to be convinced. If adding an hardware linked to the CPC is not a solution for playing, I understand more why some users love QAOP spectrum keys, instead of using... A joystick!  :laugh:

Quote from: Trebmint on 19:26, 21 August 14Yes I agree its not worth doing if all it would be used for is pirated games with a few more colours. I wasnt really suggesting TotO make these either, nor that he's becoming rich from the sales of X-mem :P ... but we need somebody with hardware knowledge

I will never help to build piracy systems. But I can for making new hardware for games. In fact, X-MEM and PlayCity was made for new ambitious games and tools and it look that CPC users want that too.  ;)

There is nothing wrong with wanting to get money for a cartridge game.

All I really want is for there to be more cartridge games and to break the chicken and egg problem.

Nobody will spend money for building new cartridges if you have noting to put inside...  ::)
- Making software only require time
- Making hardware require money

What is the best to do first?  ;D 

Clue:

Quote from: TotO on 19:51, 21 August 14
Nobody will spend money for building new cartridges if you have noting to put inside...  ::)
- Making software only require time
- Making hardware require money

What is the best to do first?  ;D
Clue: It's more easy to make software if you got an exclusive free devkit to be motivated to start.

That's one way of looking at it... Glass half full or half empty... chicken and egg. Why would anyone create a game that you cant have a physical copy of? I've written quite a few games in my time, and I can tell you the only 5 I now have are the 2 Gameboy Color and 3 Gameboy Advance Carts. They look cool and having a physical cartrdige copy is a buzz that no other game I've done has given me.


If its about the money then as I've said I'd be willing to pre-order, and so would a few other developers, but if its the case I need to write a game first only to hope that somebody with hardware ability will come along to allow me to release it then erm I probably wont find the motivation


Actually I've already written a Plus game called Fluff thats 20 years old, have a large amount of code that would go towards a new + game, and hacked Sorcery to use the plus features.

btw, for what i saw how Everdrive works, it seems to have a kind of file selector (that chooses the rom file from the sd filesystem), loads it into the ram area (no idea if it is powered by a battery, i think it is not), switches the pages, and runs it - perhaps people that owns Everdrive and Powerpak, and know electronics and that level of programming, might know better how it works

and about the "ethical" and "legal" issues people are concerning here, i think that on GX4000 will be not different as on MasterSystem, NES, Megadrive - Everdrive and Powerpak exists since years, and most people (even developers) are mostly not seeing problems on it (afaik) - classic games are now mostly about "museology", having a collection, or pure nostalgy - for example, World of Spectrum is plenty of (hosting legally) .tap, .tzx, etc., of mostly exactly the same titles we can find on CPC, such as from Dinamic, Opera, Topo, etc., so i really, really wonder why it would be not a problem on ZX-Spectrum and it is for CPC


and in the case that people might be interested on burning these classic games for selling, i think it's a thing of ethical good sense on contacting the original authors and alike for dealing royalty values, even if they don't ask for it - the same applying to them as to any homebrew developer (such as Mojón Twins, Retroworks, etc.) that might get (obviously) excited seeing their games, even released in a gpl-compatible licensing, burnt in roms and socketed into cartridges

Quote from: Trebmint on 20:02, 21 August 14Why would anyone create a game that you cant have a physical copy of?

Do you know this website: Homebrew.AT (http://homebrew.amstradtoday.com/index_uk.htm)
As you can see, peoples already make games on CPC... Peoples made Tapes, Floppies and ROMs and it's not a problem to got physical copy of them.

Who made Plus game that absolutely require a cartridge to be played?
Answer: Nobody.

So, the cartridges are actually useless... You need new PLUS programs to fill them.
And for waiting, you can play them using ROM boards or Floppy or Tape... (loading ROM to RAM)

So, understand the problem is not the egg but the fact that it is empty.  ;D
An Everdrive cartridge on GX4000 means, copy copyrighted games. It's exclude for me.

Quote from: TotO on 21:01, 21 August 14
Do you know this website: Homebrew.AT (http://homebrew.amstradtoday.com/index_uk.htm)
As you can see, peoples already make games on CPC... Peoples made Tapes, Floppies and ROMs and it's not a problem to got physical copy of them.

Who made Plus game that absolutely require a cartridge to be played?
Answer: Nobody.

So, the cartridges are actually useless... You need new PLUS programs to fill them.
And for waiting, you can play them using ROM boards or Floppy or Tape... (loading ROM to RAM)

So, understand the problem is not the egg but the fact that it is empty.  ;D
An Everdrive cartridge on GX4000 means, copy copyrighted games. It's exclude for me.

Did you make the PlayCity for all those games that already existed with 9 channel sound then? :P

I have dispatched the CTC-AY dev board, 1 year ago to allow developers to work on tools and game, before releasing the PlayCity.
Because, the hardware is needed to work... With Cartridge support too, if you don't know that!
That mean, it is possible to dev CPC and PLUS games on the good ROM range w/o problem.

You are only speaking about the "free egg", that is only needed when the game is ready.
That absolutely help for nothing. (it's easy to 3D print cases and produce PCB when games will be done)

Quote from: TotO on 21:01, 21 August 14
Do you know this website: Homebrew.AT (http://homebrew.amstradtoday.com/index_uk.htm)
As you can see, peoples already make games on CPC... Peoples made Tapes, Floppies and ROMs and it's not a problem to got physical copy of them.

Who made Plus game that absolutely require a cartridge to be played?
Answer: Nobody.

So, the cartridges are actually useless... You need new PLUS programs to fill them.
And for waiting, you can play them using ROM boards or Floppy or Tape... (loading ROM to RAM)

So, understand the problem is not the egg but the fact that it is empty.  ;D
An Everdrive cartridge on GX4000 means, copy copyrighted games. It's exclude for me.

As I've said before, writing games that take advantage of the Plus hardware is actually a major PITA if you aren't running from cartridge. The entire way the hardware is designed actually gets in the way of using it effectively when everything has to be in RAM. And being tied entirely to the behaviour of emulators is deeply frustrating. One of the reasons I shelved work on JSW+ was because it got too frustrating building releases and having people come back with "it crashes" or "the graphics are corrupt" in ways I had no way of reproducing unless an emulator author made changes, which is why the version floating around on the web still has a tacky interrupt work around in it.

And FWIW, I could probably easily re-work that for a genuine cartridge release quite easily, as I still have source files and a cartridge release could ditch the 128K requirement and increase the number of sprites and graphics (it's really resource constrained as it stands)

You look to have not read the SyX posts. If it's a problem for some of you to use a standard ROM board for development, it is possible to make a custom version that boot like a PLUS cartridge. (as the CTC-AY devkit does)

Quote from: TotO on 22:02, 21 August 14
You look to have not read the SyX posts. If it's a problem for some of you to use a standard ROM board for development, it is possible to make a custom version that boot like a PLUS cartridge. (as the CTC-AY devkit does)

Works like the cartridge stuff is documented isn't necessarily the same as works the way the cartridge actually does work. Not to mention that I'd want to try stuff out on an actual GX4000, plugged into a telly and everything, because that too will have quirks compared to a Plus machine and CPC monitor.

And standard ROM boards don't support RMR2, which again is pretty much crucial for making full use of the GX hardware.

Not really sure why this is even an argument. A cart is a piece of genuine Amstrad hardware that existed, and now we no longer have ability to use. That's a shame and should be rectified. Games do exist that would take advantage of it, both patched and new, and if it existed I seriously doubt that more new games wouldn't have been released for it and even designed for it rather than just a souped up cpc game.


If I was a hardware guy rather than just software I'd have done it if my abilities allowed. I understand that people with the hardware ability to pull this off would much rather do something funky and limit pushing like the PlayCity which is an awesome thing, and not just create something that's already been done as that's no challenge. Doesnt stop us coders and gamers that would like to see the plus pushed further being frustrated that we've waited years and still seemingly are getting nowhere with out desire

Quote from: andycadley on 22:07, 21 August 14And standard ROM boards don't support RMR2, which again is pretty much crucial for making full use of the GX hardware.

The funny thing is that we offer you a way to develop games on GX/PLUS with a custom board...
... But you don't want because it's not the final product.  :-\ 

You think that it will be a "standard ROM board" and that will be not able to support a "pretty much crucial" feature...
... Only used into 1 game.  :laugh:

You only see problems when you got solutions.
I have better to do, so...

Bye!

Quote from: TotO on 08:38, 22 August 14
The funny thing is that we offer you a way to develop games on GX/PLUS with a custom board...
... But you don't want because it's not the final product.  :-\ 

You think that it will be a "standard ROM board" and that will be not able to support a "pretty much crucial" feature...
... Only used into 1 game.  :laugh:

You only see problems when you got solutions.
I have better to do, so...

Bye!

Wow, this threads one of the dozens that are primarily about wouldn't it be nice to create some cart games again and sell them... probably the most recurring thread there is on the wiki which must say something. And yeah a solution to developing in a better way would be great, though personally i'd use Winape right up to the last phase anyway.


But no, any solution that requires a copy of Burning Rubber to hang off the side of a machine isn't a solution to the actual issue.... I can develop plus software, and I have developed plus software, and I still have no way of deploying it. Not much more to be said... The most obviously wanted and needed piece of hardware required on the scene and all its probably never going to happen. Makes me sad

Here's my two cents from a hardware view-point.

My idea of a programmable Cart gives a good balance: 256K With BASIC / AMSDOS / Flash Programming Software + 256K CPC writeable Flash. The user could buy one without any new games having been released, because he can put whatever he likes on it, ie: Existing games that he doesn't want to buy on ebay for gaziollions of Euros. This cartridge would be the same size as a standard cartridge, fit in a standard cartridge case and can be used to develop software. And you only need one of them.
If and when someone writes a Cartridge game, then he can put that on it without having to buy another cartridge just for that game.

The "There's no plus games cause there's no medium" argument is a steaming pile. Plus games can run from disks too. So where are they? There are a few, but most developers will tell you: They can make a game for the Classic CPC and 1000's will play it. But how many people own a Plus?

Bryce.

Quote from: andycadley on 22:07, 21 August 14
Works like the cartridge stuff is documented isn't necessarily the same as works the way the cartridge actually does work. Not to mention that I'd want to try stuff out on an actual GX4000, plugged into a telly and everything, because that too will have quirks compared to a Plus machine and CPC monitor.

And standard ROM boards don't support RMR2, which again is pretty much crucial for making full use of the GX hardware.

What I would like to know is if a rom board responded to 128-255, would this also allow RMR2 to also work?

If so you could attach a ROM board to the back of a 6128Plus and use that for some of the development, but bear in mind that the GX4000 doesn't have a "disc" page, it doesn't activate at least not in normal position 7.
But it is active at &83.

Quote from: Bryce on 09:18, 22 August 14
Here's my two cents from a hardware view-point.

My idea of a programmable Cart gives a good balance: 256K With BASIC / AMSDOS / Flash Programming Software + 256K CPC writeable Flash. The user could buy one without any new games having been released, because he can put whatever he likes on it, ie: Existing games that he doesn't want to buy on ebay for gaziollions of Euros. This cartridge would be the same size as a standard cartridge, fit in a standard cartridge case and can be used to develop software. And you only need one of them.
If and when someone writes a Cartridge game, then he can put that on it without having to buy another cartridge just for that game.

The "There's no plus games cause there's no medium" argument is a steaming pile. Plus games can run from disks too. So where are they? There are a few, but most developers will tell you: They can make a game for the Classic CPC and 1000's will play it. But how many people own a Plus?

Bryce.

Well I have 3 games I'd like to put on cart where they should be. 1 being a game that's already known as one of the few plus only games and the other 2 being at about 75%-85% complete. You can dismiss me if you like when I say if there was a solution I'd write more too. None of these will see the light of day until hardware exists so show them off though. One will require 512k though, the others 128k. Disk is a poor solution and also hard to find in working condition.

There are 1000's of CPC games already,  and I have little interest in just adding to the numbers. Writing a plus game adds something that doesn't exist.
Your solution Bryce isn't perfect from my point of view in that its more of a storage device rather than a single permanent game, but if that's the only solution then I'd use and support it.

Quote from: Trebmint on 22:33, 21 August 14
.. A cart is a piece of genuine Amstrad hardware that existed, and now we no longer have ability to use. That's a shame and should be rectified. ...


If I was a hardware guy rather than just software I'd have done it if my abilities allowed.

I agree with all points here. If I was a hardware guy I would have made it too.

Lets go back to your point about printed cartridges. It would be interesting to know if these would be rigid enough to make it easy for insertion/removal many times.

I saw this on atariage:

ivop's Blog - Making you own polyurethane cartridge cases - Member Blogs - (http://atariage.com/forums/topic/224509-ivops-blog-making-you-own-polyurethane-cartridge-cases/)

Quote from: Trebmint on 09:43, 22 August 14
Your solution Bryce isn't perfect from my point of view in that its more of a storage device rather than a single permanent game, but if that's the only solution then I'd use and support it.

Actually, I proposed three solutions a while back, they were something like this:

1 - Simple 512K Cartridge for people to release games on (EPROM, not writeable from CPC).
2 - 256K Writeable Cartridge for both development and users to load games of their choice.
3 - 16x 128K MultiCart to allow people to have a collection of Cart games on one cartridge (EPROM, not writeable from CPC).

No. 1 is more what you are looking for, this needs to be a cheap as possible to allow games to be release at a reasonable price.
No. 2 is good for development but also good for users. 256K is of course a limitation, but it is required to allow the cartridge to be written directly from the CPC. Important for both developers and users and keeps the price relatively low too.
No. 3 is just something I made for myself but I thought others might be interested in it. My version still uses DIP switches to changes games, but I have also designed a software switchable version, but I haven't got around to building one yet.

Edit: If any developer (or a group of developers) are interested in a batch of 512K Cartridges for game release, then I have no problem getting a batch built, but the cases will have to be sorted by someone else. I don't see 3D printing as a solution for large volumes, mainly due to the time needed per case, but also because the surface finish just doesn't do it for me, they look like prototypes. Sanding the surface would be even more work.

Bryce.

Quote from: arnoldemu on 09:54, 22 August 14
I agree with all points here. If I was a hardware guy I would have made it too.

Lets go back to your point about printed cartridges. It would be interesting to know if these would be rigid enough to make it easy for insertion/removal many times.

I saw this on atariage:

ivop's Blog - Making you own polyurethane cartridge cases - Member Blogs - (http://atariage.com/forums/topic/224509-ivops-blog-making-you-own-polyurethane-cartridge-cases/)

Im sure its feasible to make a simplified cart cases using some sort of heath-robinson silicone mould. Im also sure 3d printing materials are pretty strong now. You can use ABS plastic which is very tough. If either of these look great I dont know. 3d printing can look a little rough still, and moulds are messy, simplified and warp after a few dozen uses. BluesBrother a year or so ago had some very cool looking cases made, what happened???


And TBH the price of the cartridge case within reason can be fairly pricey... we don't need to get them knocked out at 10p each do we


Problem is before we started with a case we'd need a pretty solid dimensions for the board.


I'm very aware that every hardware guy that could achieve this always wants to add something to it to make it better, reusable etc etc, when all I want is something I can plug a game into a slot with at a cheap enough price that we could actually sell a few cool looking games. That's buy a board and a case. Burn a ROM and stick it on the board, put it in the case and voila!


I think people would expect to pay around £25 - 40 for a new game on a Plus cart. If this is doable for this sort of price I really have no clue

Quote from: Bryce on 10:18, 22 August 14
Actually, I proposed three solutions a while back, they were something like this:

1 - Simple 512K Cartridge for people to release games on (EPROM, not writeable from CPC).
2 - 256K Writeable Cartridge for both development and users to load games of their choice.
3 - 16x 128K MultiCart to allow people to have a collection of Cart games on one cartridge (EPROM, not writeable from CPC).

No. 1 is more what you are looking for, this needs to be a cheap as possible to allow games to be release at a reasonable price.
No. 2 is good for development but also good for users. 256K is of course a limitation, but it is required to allow the cartridge to be written directly from the CPC. Important for both developers and users and keeps the price relatively low too.
No. 3 is just something I made for myself but I thought others might be interested in it. My version still uses DIP switches to changes games, but I have also designed a software switchable version, but I haven't got around to building one yet.

Edit: If any developer (or a group of developers) are interested in a batch of 512K Cartridges for game release, then I have no problem getting a batch built, but the cases will have to be sorted by someone else. I don't see 3D printing as a solution for large volumes, mainly due to the time needed per case, but also because the surface finish just doesn't do it for me, they look like prototypes. Sanding the surface would be even more work.

Bryce.

Yes Bryce the 1st is the option I'd prefer. Does that include the ACID solution? What would the approximate cost be? How much are 512k EPROMs?
If this was available then I'm sure we'd solve the case issue suitably

Quote from: Bryce on 10:18, 22 August 14
1 - Simple 512K Cartridge for people to release games on (EPROM, not writeable from CPC).
2 - 256K Writeable Cartridge for both development and users to load games of their choice.
3 - 16x 128K MultiCart to allow people to have a collection of Cart games on one cartridge (EPROM, not writeable from CPC).

I remember those.
I'm neither a developer nor a hardware dude. I'm just the guy who plays the games.
As a game-player I find myself mostly interesting in the first option, because I'm thinking I'll then get a whole 512k CPC game that loads everything instantly. That's gotta be awesome!  :)

Anyway. Why is it that we keep talking about this?
Who decides which of Bryce's 3 options we'll go with?
Should someone make a poll?
What does it take to get started?

Quote from: Trebmint on 10:36, 22 August 14

Yes Bryce the 1st is the option I'd prefer. Does that include the ACID solution? What would the approximate cost be? How much are 512k EPROMs?
If this was available then I'm sure we'd solve the case issue suitably

It depends a lot on volume. A single 512K EPROM costs about €6, but ordering in bulk can make a big difference. All of the proposals are based on a CPLD emulating the ACID.

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 14:50, 22 August 14
It depends a lot on volume. A single 512K EPROM costs about €6, but ordering in bulk can make a big difference. All of the proposals are based on a CPLD emulating the ACID.

Bryce.

How much in general would the board & cpld be each if you were making 100-200? If the total price of the case, rom & board+cpld is around 20-25 euros im sure people would accept this

from the ColecoVision scene (via AtariAge forum) i heard that they are mostly on burning and distributing 25 copies at minimum, of each game

Quote from: Trebmint on 16:22, 22 August 14
How much in general would the board & cpld be each if you were making 100-200? If the total price of the case, rom & board+cpld is around 20-25 euros im sure people would accept this

When I get a chance I'll get some quotes and tell you exactly.

Bryce.

Quote from: Trebmint on 16:22, 22 August 14
How much in general would the board & cpld be each if you were making 100-200? If the total price of the case, rom & board+cpld is around 20-25 euros im sure people would accept this

I certainly would.

Catching up with the forum posts after coming back from vacation. This thread gave me sooo many déjà vus! :D

T

PS I love my Everdrives... HxC for consoles. Make things so much simpler and cheaper!

Quote from: Gryzor on 17:05, 23 August 14
PS I love my Everdrives... HxC for consoles. Make things so much simpler and cheaper!

Yeah, currently awaiting the arrival of my Gameboy Everdrive. With the GB it makes sense due to the massive library. Seriously good design too, that they managed to pack it into a standard cartridge case.

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 21:05, 23 August 14
Yeah, currently awaiting the arrival of my Gameboy Everdrive. With the GB it makes sense due to the massive library. Seriously good design too, that they managed to pack it into a standard cartridge case.

Bryce.

Oh, but the problem with the game boy is... light :(. I buy a crappy copy clon gb boy with blacklight, and i waiting to arrive. But the biggest secret of game boy is:

[/spoiler]

I intend using it on my GBC with front light from Kitsch Bent installed.

Bryce.

Just get hold of a AGS 101 backlit SP. Only Gameboy I ever use these days.

(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/08/23/194d21fdd8406dbd85a8ea5fcf652d8b.jpg)

I have a frontlit SP AGS100 which is also fine, but I don't like using GBC carts on it cos they're too big.

Bryce.

Quote from: dragon on 10:08, 19 August 14
The problem to made a everdrive, is the gx4000 have a big flaw in the desing. In snes and the other consoles you can speak with the cartridge, you can save the games in the cartridges because the consoles can send/write information to it. So yo can tell to fpga format sd card, rename file in sdcard etc flash game from the sd to the memory flash... the gx4000 can only read the eeprom of the cartridge. So the aproach is different.

But the parallel port of the CPC is uni-directional, and is used for bidirectional (and slow incoming) transfers :)


You have the Adress Lines as Input to the cart!


Same as the ACID gets it's input from the Adress Lines, you can manage an "unlock code" for input data.


Example:



EPROM read &0000 ;EPROM read &0000 ;EPROM read &ffff ;EPROM read &ffff ;EPROM read &0000 ;EPROM read &0000   -- UNLOCKED INPUT MODE

EPROM read U ;EPROM read V ;EPROM read W ;EPROM read X ;EPROM read Y ;EPROM read Z   -- INPUT PARAMETERS U, V, W, X, Y, Z TO CPLD

After 6 byte is "sent", CPLD input is again LOCKED. You "read" 12 bytes from EPROM to send 6 raw bytes to CPLD

Then a command set must be defined for the CPLD parser: U should be a "command", and rest of inputs, it's variables


If the Boot menu just uses 16kb, you have lot of "128k EPROM" free. You can use another 16kb page for data exchange from the cart and the CPC, for example an "explorer" mode, so you have the .CPR files listed there, and the boot menu can just show on screen, you select one, send the command U="LOAD", V="Number 06" and .CBR number 6 is loaded, CPLD goes from "Explorer" (16kb program, 16Kb data) mode to 128, 256, 512 Kb EPROM mode depends of .CPR file size.


Also a future game could detect preence of the EverCPC, command U="Is EverCPC?", and reading the next variables, whatever you input for V W X Y Z, could retrieve a signature of 5 bytes as "EVCPC"


Then a command "SAVE" will start a dump to a file, same name as selected .CPR but with .SAV, easy for a high score board, 2 bytes for points, 3 bytes for 3 ASCII =5 bytes. Repeat save command  for each block of 5 bytes, and are saved secuentialy. A command "End SAVE" is sent again and file is closed. Same as OPENOUT, save raw data, CLOSEOUT!!


The U parameter is just a byte, so those "LOAD", "SAVE", etc commands are really 0, 1, 2....


Clean way to speak with the EverCPC??  I know is easy to invent all this stuff in a head, but to get it to a CPLD....




EDIT: My mistake. I', supposing the CPLD will just scan a byte from each U V W X Y Z after unlocking...

Excuse my ignorance here but is there any current way of playing downloaded roms on the plus computer?

Yes, you remove the EPROM from a cartridge and replace it with a socket. Then burn the downloaded ROM image to a new EPROM and you are ready to go.

Bryce.

How many roms can you fit on there?


Not that I have the skills to do such a thing :(

If you use an original cartridge PCB then just one, but if you make something like this: Multi Cartridge - CPCWiki (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Multi_Cartridge) then you can have more (in this case 4).

Bryce.