2xYM2149

[MacDeath]

Adding dedicated VRAM would be almost re-designing the entire   architecture and end up with a completely new - non-CPC-compatible 8-Bit   computer.

Like a MSX ?

Post edit :
I meant "like a MSX minor the 19 268 colours mode" 

[Bryce]

More or less

Bryce.

[OCT]

In the CPCAI I found a hardware project on how to connect a SID chip to the CPC, but I guess it never worked correctly (or was it the self-built speech synthesizer!?).

Too far away from my collection again to look up either one (but it won't be long until someone finds these issues and brings this info to the Wiki I guess), however the recollection of a CPCAI project in one of its latest issues (or was it another of the German mags?) also was the first thing to come to my mind when I heard of the SID in this thread.
The CPCAI speech synthesizer, IIRC, could not have its power supplied from all CPCs, so there was some note/update to this effect - otherwise it was working fine AFAIK, and along with its brethren seems to have been analyzed and immortalized (to live on forever in Devilmarkus' emulation) lately in http://cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php/topic,503.0.html ...

[MacDeath]

... I do have two SID chips here

Kill it with Fire !!!



BTW, if I remember well, FM soundchips were quite good too...
Used in many Japanese machines...
Megadrive, advanced MSXs...

Perhaps a good way may be to find Soundchip cartridges upgrades for MSX... I think this stuff existed.
Perhaps no real need to even cannibalize them, a simple (or not) adapter could work, or not ?


another good source of cannibilisation : PC sound cards...
a good old AdLib or even soundblaster...
Perhaps easy to find, and also perhaps no need to really cannibalise : a ISA/ PCI /whatever adapter on CPC, this could exist as the CPC is basically a 8080 CGA PC...sort of...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonsound
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_card
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Blaster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdLib

Lots of MSX cartridges... As being a Z80 computer, perhaps we may use them ?
http://www.faq.msxnet.org/fmpac.html

[MacDeath]

http://www.cpc-power.com/cpcarchives/index.php?page=articles&num=36

Found it. Thx to friends at CPCrulez...This book is in french, perhaps and english version or other does exist...

It features an extension called : Generateur de sons (sound generator).(page 243)which is actually...an extra AY3-8912 connected by the extension port.    

So by this mean, you can have your 2x AY on your CPC, getting up to 6 channels.
Isn't it exactly what you were looking for ?

Just replacing the AY by a correctly programmed FPGA may then fill your dreams...
Even seems promising with a 6128+...as an internal add-on card.
I alway wonder why didn't Amstrad put actually 2x AY (with DMA of course) on the PLUS range... I suppose because they put the AY inside the ASIC...

Getting 2 Asics instead of one could really have helped, also getting enought slots on Mainboards for 256K...and getting only 128K minimum settings...lol...and they simply didn't care.6 channels (despite being only AY-channels) seems interesting, as we know ohow difficult it may be to get both a sweet music and good sounds effect at the same time with only 3 channels.Many games enabled only Music OR Sounds...Gryzor being the prime exemple.(Some other didn't even bothered to include sounds at all...Paperboy...often due to the 64K RAM limit....grrrrrr...).

Yet, what is the difference between the "External AY" and the Built-in one ?Addresses are certainly different of course, but concerning memory access (the way you fill the AY with Datas...) are there some differences ?Could this be featured with "DMA channels" like method and perhaps its own memory ? not using that much of the Z80 ressources then ? After all, getting a FPGA emulating an AY may also enable extra stuff/functions...


I was thinking about some kind of extension Sound card with its own memory slots, then you may launch complete samples or sounds effects by simple commands from the CPU to the card...just like you would do some MIDI...

The CPC wouldn't actually produce the samples directly as with a Digiblaster.

You would just upload datas into the cards internal memory banks (where they would stay) whiole loading your game/demo...
And launch them at will by perhaps simple instructions, the card acting like a MIDI-programmable synthetiser-MP3 player or whatever...
With such mean, you simply do normal music with the internal AY from CPC, and your sounds effects are sampled stuffs...
A bit like the Atari STE features 2 additionnal sample channels in addition to the YM's 3 channels...

But having a second AY seems pleasant too .

[Ygdrazil]

Seems to be great stuff indeed.. Sadly I don't master the French language!

/Ygdrazil

http://www.cpc-power.com/cpcarchives/index.php?page=articles&num=36
Found it. Thx to friends at CPCrulez...This book is in french, perhaps and english version or other does exist...

It features an extension called : Generateur de sons (sound generator).(page 243)which is actually...an extra AY3-8912 connected by the extension port.    

So by this mean, you can have your 2x AY on your CPC, getting up to 6 channels.
Isn't it exactly what you were looking for ?

Just replacing the AY by a correctly programmed FPGA may then fill your dreams...
Even seems promising with a 6128+...as an internal add-on card.
I alway wonder why didn't Amstrad put actually 2x AY (with DMA of course) on the PLUS range... I suppose because they put the AY inside the ASIC...

Getting 2 Asics instead of one could really have helped, also getting enought slots on Mainboards for 256K...and getting only 128K minimum settings...lol...and they simply didn't care.6 channels (despite being only AY-channels) seems interesting, as we know ohow difficult it may be to get both a sweet music and good sounds effect at the same time with only 3 channels.Many games enabled only Music OR Sounds...Gryzor being the prime exemple.(Some other didn't even bothered to include sounds at all...Paperboy...often due to the 64K RAM limit....grrrrrr...).

Yet, what is the difference between the "External AY" and the Built-in one ?Addresses are certainly different of course, but concerning memory access (the way you fill the AY with Datas...) are there some differences ?Could this be featured with "DMA channels" like method and perhaps its own memory ? not using that much of the Z80 ressources then ? After all, getting a FPGA emulating an AY may also enable extra stuff/functions...


I was thinking about some kind of extension Sound card with its own memory slots, then you may launch complete samples or sounds effects by simple commands from the CPU to the card...just like you would do some MIDI...

The CPC wouldn't actually produce the samples directly as with a Digiblaster.

You would just upload datas into the cards internal memory banks (where they would stay) whiole loading your game/demo...
And launch them at will by perhaps simple instructions, the card acting like a MIDI-programmable synthetiser-MP3 player or whatever...
With such mean, you simply do normal music with the internal AY from CPC, and your sounds effects are sampled stuffs...
A bit like the Atari STE features 2 additionnal sample channels in addition to the YM's 3 channels...

But having a second AY seems pleasant too .

[MacDeath]

Well...I spoke in Engrish...


concerning the book, it seems a non-french version may exist (Yet are those scanned ?).

And if you are well into Hardware, you may understand the schematics as well...

But yeah, it only seems that this montage allows the AYx2 wanted in the original post.
With even softwares way to handle it, yet it is more a way to actualy learn how the AY works than how to manage having 2 of those in a CPC...

[Octoate]

Found it. Thx to friends at CPCrulez...This book is in french, perhaps and english version or other does exist...

At least there is a german version of it called "CPC Hardware Erweiterungen", which was also released by Data Becker.

[Leonie]

6 channels (despite being only AY-channels) seems interesting.

6 channels would allow a lot of things:

- sound modulations like SID-Voice
- lots of echos
- real chords
- 2 noisegenerators are really useful to fatten up the whole thing
- more samples to the same time


Why do you write "despite being only AY-Channels"?
That´s not charming! 
Just because the SID-Chip enables more sound variations doesn´t mean the AY-Chip sounds worse.

[MacDeath]

Why do you write "despite being only AY-Channels"?
That´s not   charming! 
Just because the   SID-Chip enables more sound variations doesn´t mean the AY-Chip sounds   worse.

I was just being ironic...
Seriously if the AY simply had more channels, it wouldn't have been bitched at by retrofans of chiptunes and could seriously compare betterly against most other soundchips.

3 channel is really the minimum to get something better than the 1 channel beeper... (ZX spectrum, Thomson's computers, old PC with internal speacker only...)... but it is clearly not enough IMO, yet it obliged musicians to be clever and inventive.

Amiga with only +1 channel (4 channel) is completely superior not only because its soundchip is a clever synthetiser...also because of the +1 channel.
But Atari STE with its YM...and additionnal sampled sounds 2 channels, is clearly really good enough to display great things...

what push me red is that most chiptunes you can find on Youtube use NES /nintendo 8 bit or Sid perhaps...
I don't like Sid that much (bleeds my ears) but I mostly hate Nintendo sound...completely horrible sounds IMO.

A good AY is not the most powerfull Soundchip, yet i really like its bass-sounds and if cleverly used, it can really do nice job too.

So yeah and Amstrad with doubled AY is clearly no more the same sound machine...but this is not easily usable during games or demo, as we know Amstrad had problems with its central memory being used by everything but the Z80...lol...sort of...

So getting a second AY as an external extension sound card may perhaps enable it (with a few additionnal components) to really act as a sound card... with its own memory and needing actually a few CPU support
Precalculated stuff and so on... the CPU just order stuff, the card does the rest.


A FPGA can actually emulate (reproduce) an AY if I remember well.

So as those stuff are quite powerfull nowadays, additionnal management features may certainly be added, acting like real DMA channel and a bit of its own memory and its memory access management.

The main advantage to keep the amstrad's AY setting is also that it is then compatible with all existing AY stuffs...
So in case of a game enabling only Music OR sounds ...

Notorious and obvious exemples are Robocop and Gryzor...

But some games existed on Both Speccy and Amstrad... and the amstrad Version per exemple would not get in-game music while Speccy would (which ones ?)

a simple patch would allow to get Both.
Music being alsmot Automatic playing, it is then managed simply by the external card, while good old CPU manages the traditionnal sounds (which may need more activations along the action, as it goes along the gameplay).


And as for a Digiblaster, would need a few component so you plug your CPC sound on this and then plug your Hi-fi to the card, perhaps with a pair of potentiometers to mix CPC sound and Card's sound...

As in modern games where you can set the sound levels of background's sounds effects, Music, Voices and so on (WOW per exemple...).


IMO such a 2xAY external soundcard would even be "better" than a digiblaster...
Not better in that those have different functions, but better in that it would be more usefull.

Digiblaster of course allows to "print" samples of great quality...but real applications are not that usable IMO in a Game/Demo environment.
Use a lot of Z80 ressources actually...and is totally obsolete.
Yet very simple montage too as few complicated chips are needed...


If done well, this may also enable the CPC+ extra sound capability for a CPC old...such as playing PLUS version of Prehistorik 2 music on the CPC old.

Because the aim would not be to get simply 2x "CPC old  AY" but the +1 "PLUS AY" with DMA/auto-management stuffs.

[steve]

A second processor card with 128k/512k ram, plugged into the expansion slot could run the main program, leaving the original mainboard processor to send data to the sound chip(s) as well as all other i/o ports, it's not an easy thing to do but it would accelerate the CPC more than a simple sound card would.

[Leonie]

3 channel is really the minimum....but it is clearly not enough IMO, yet it obliged musicians to be clever and inventive.

Clever and inventive........this is the wonderful thing about the AY-Chip.
It´s career was a gradual climb.
Incredible, what you can tickle out of this freaky cheeky small Chip.

3 channel is really the minimum to get something better than the 1 channel beeper......

Don´t forget the noisegenerator!
This nice compoment really adds some magic flesh.

Amiga with only +1 channel (4 channel) is completely superior not only because its soundchip is a clever synthetiser...also because of the +1 channel.

I say No! No! No!
Amiga´s Paula-Chip is not a clever synthesizer, it´s just a simple Sample-Bitch.
But hey, clever musicians can do clever things with that Paula-Lady...
But basically, it´s a Sample-Player without synthcapabilities.

[TFM]

... I do have two SID chips here, and I've been playing around with the idea of building a SID based CPC Soundcard.

Well, don't invent the wheel again. Such a SID card was already made by the CPCAI, but I would NEVER EVER touch a sid. It is evil!!! From hell!!! No support under FutureOS :-P

[TFM]

Personally I don't see the idea of building advanced soundcards for the CPC. I don't think anyone will ever buy them.

Oh there is the CPC Booster+ which enables the CPC to sample sound and to play samples. A ot of people (including me) already bought it!

[TFM]

... I hadn't intended making a dual SID card, just a single SID would have been enough.

Not even stereo, how poor

[TFM]

Woooaaaa, a dual CPU system based on z80s would be a hardware nightmare.

It's all not that wild... My Genie IIIs has one Z80 with 8 MHz and a second Z80 with 8 MHz. Both share 64 KB if they like. It's like banking memory. It workes fine. German technique ;-) btw: The second Z80 is on the Ultra/8 card. I could add four more of them ;-)

[Gryzor]

I alway wonder why didn't Amstrad put actually 2x AY (with DMA of course) on the PLUS range... I suppose because they put the AY inside the ASIC...

Why, couldn't they have put two AY's in the ASIC? Just saying...

@TFM: there's a multi-quote function above every post mate, so that you don't need to post multiple replies for each post you quote...

[arnoldemu]

Why, couldn't they have put two AY's in the ASIC? Just saying...

@TFM: there's a multi-quote function above every post mate, so that you don't need to post multiple replies for each post you quote...

Well they didn't put the AY into the ASIC they only added the functions for sending data more quickly to the AY using the special DMA.

They couldn't put one or 2 AY's into the ASIC, because they didn't have enough gates free to implement it.
They could do it with a bigger ASIC, but I am sure price was the problem.

[Leonie]

...NEVER EVER touch a SID.
It is evil!!! From hell!!! No support under FutureOS :-P

This is true enough!

The SID is one of the greatest threats to mankind. It is Adolf Hitler in chip-form!


Can´t you see it in the children´s eyes?
It´s about to get wild.

[MacDeath]

I was surprised even this thread couldn't get some goodwin point...

Thx leonie.



Ok, I was in error, I supposed the AY was emulated inside the ASIC, which is not true, there are just DMA channels for an AY.

It's all not that wild... My Genie IIIs has one Z80 with 8   MHz and a second Z80 with 8 MHz. Both share 64 KB if they like. It's   like banking memory. It workes fine. German technique ;-) btw: The   second Z80 is on the Ultra/8 card. I could add four more of them ;-)

And we know Germany beat Britania...yesterday.                                                                                                                                                              

[arnoldemu]

I was surprised even this thread couldn't get some goodwin point...

Thx leonie.



Ok, I was in error, I supposed the AY was emulated inside the ASIC, which is not true, there are just DMA channels for an AY.
And we know Germany beat Britania...yesterday.                                                                                                                                     

Yes, the English team performed poorly.

BTW, you sig is not working anymore.
No link to click.

[Leonie]

Well, at least you didn't say that we all play on commodore c64's 

I wouldn´t dream of such a evil thing!
Apart from this...If I would say that, Gryzor would ban my account. (offensive posts...)

[Gryzor]

I wouldn´t dream of such a evil thing!
Apart from this...If I would say that, Gryzor would ban my account. (offensive posts...)

You bet I would.

[MacDeath]

BTW, you sig is not working anymore.
No link to click.

Yeah, I saw but took no time to fix that, until now...


BTW, do you think an extension card featuring a second AY alongside a memory extension would be good ?

I mean, actually the possibilities to only play some games with both sounds and music seems great to me.
Also concerning Chiptune performance, this may be great too...

AY riderz often use many ZX speccies to get their tunes live...but with such a card, a 6 channel in one computer can actually simplify well your hardware setting.

So a 6128+ with and extra AY and extra memory enables sweet stuffs IMO.


Yet what about the synchronising of computers then : do you need to be a bit synched if you are to play music and video with more than one machine, not ?

Can this be achieved with a real-time clock per exemple ? or does it only need a mundane networking ?

AY Riderz are cool and great in that they choose the "hard way" in a Sid and nintendork world...

And yeah Amstrad's AY is a bit inferior than a speccy's one, for sid sound perhaps...
Also  less RAM because of the Video Ram or whatever...

But this still remains a fully usable AY... with a reliable machine, good Graphical interface (in CGA...sort of) and so on.

Perhaps a 6128+ (or cpc6128) with such an additionnal AY+Extra memory card, and a Digiblaster... (because this remains a good Sample source, and a quite cheap and simple card actually...)
and of course a 3'1/2 disk drive or perhaps even in a double decker setting... should check it this can be done on a 6128+...need to cut some plastic parts...
...would be quite sweet.

Yes, the English team performed poorly.

The french team circus was great, Lulz were had, yet that's not really football...

[TFM]

I wouldn´t dream of such a evil thing!

That would be the ultimate nightmare on every street (not only Elm street).

The AY is fine, just do some good work with it, some did, some will do.

And if you want MP3 quality, then connect an MP3 card to your CPC ;-) For PC users it's a common thing to swap the sound-card.