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General Category => Amstrad CPC hardware => Topic started by: arnoldemu on 14:10, 25 May 10

Title: 2xYM2149
Post by: arnoldemu on 14:10, 25 May 10
http://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29716

So... I would like 6 channel sound from my cpc ;)
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Bryce on 14:19, 25 May 10
Do you have two spare YM2149 Chips? Or even 2x AY-8912 lying about?

Bryce.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Gryzor on 15:46, 25 May 10
Cannibalise other systems?
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Bryce on 18:24, 25 May 10
Anything old enough to have used a YM2149 or even an AY-8912 is retro as far as I'm concerned, and I'd have a real problem tearing it apart for one chip (which may die during the attempt anyway). I only ever empty a retro system, if it's not save-able due to massive damage or similar electronic problems. That said....

Warning the next comment could get me banned from the CPC Forum forever....

... I do have two SID chips here, and I've been playing around with the idea of building a SID based CPC Soundcard.

Pllleeeeaaaasssseee don't ban me, I wont do it again, I promise :D

Bryce.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Leonie on 18:50, 25 May 10
Quote from: Bryce on 18:24, 25 May 10
... I do have two SID chips here, and I've been playing around with the idea of building a SID based CPC Soundcard.

>:( YOU WILL BE SORRY FOR THAT!  >:(



FOR SURE!
I´ll make you pay for that!
You´ll die tomorrow, ten o´clock.
I´ll eat your foul meat!  :(

Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Devilmarkus on 18:55, 25 May 10
Quote from: Bryce on 18:24, 25 May 10
... I do have two SID chips here, and I've been playing around with the idea of building a SID based CPC Soundcard.

Great idea! 2 SID are much better. So you could do stereo output :)
Or a mixage of AY and SID together?
Indeed this sounds interesting!

(Who the fuck is Leonie?)
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: fano on 19:46, 25 May 10
Quote from: Bryce on 18:24, 25 May 10... I do have two SID chips here, and I've been playing around with the idea of building a SID based CPC Soundcard.
OMFG ! burn them !
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: mr_lou on 20:04, 25 May 10
Personally I don't see the idea of building advanced soundcards for the CPC. I don't think anyone will ever buy them.

That's why I'm intrigued by the Digiblaster. It seems to be a fair solution for the CPC, and one that everyone can afford or even make themselves. I vote that everyone should invest in a Digiblaster, and hence forth more games and demos could have sampled music.  8)
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Leonie on 20:08, 25 May 10
Quote from: Devilmarkus on 18:55, 25 May 10
Who the fuck is Leonie?

Your future cause of death.  >:(
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Bryce on 10:26, 26 May 10
Ok, it's already 11:30 here, 10 o'clock has come and gone and I'm still here. So Leonies death threats aren't to be taken seriously. She didn't even eat my meat as promised :D

Anyway, firstly, I didn't intend the SID Soundcard to be a major project for release, I just thought I'd try it out for the fun of it (but if anyone wanted to build it, they could of course have the plans) and secondly, the SID is/was a serious sound chip which had capabilities way more advanced than a digiblaster could offer. But I can still build a few digiblasters if anyone is interested.

Bryce.

Btw Markus, I hadn't intended making a dual SID card, just a single SID would have been enough.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: MacDeath on 12:37, 26 May 10
I think it may be better to simply mix 2 CPC/PLUS...
Getting them working like some sort of duo-core computer, synchronised by a common Real-time clock or whatever, and perhaps sharing a common extended RAM banks pool (with a mechanism so you don't have both computers messing with the same bank at the same time.) and perhaps a direct channel too so each CPU can give order to the other or channel Datas or whatever...


But the BankSwitching in a common pool may be great.
need some delay of course because you must per exemple wait the CPU1 write on it, the close it to it and open it to the CPU2...But such a delay may be transcended by the fact you then give a whole 16K or Datas/codes or whatever.

So such thing would need the 2 sound outputs to be put on a common mix...ginving 2x3 stereo channels (and even some DMA if you use some PLUS.


It's an old dream of mine, doing such a dual-core CPC (or PLUS)...


PS : I love it when Leonie 's gone wild, berzerker fury style...
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Bryce on 13:05, 26 May 10
Woooaaaa, a dual CPU system based on z80s would be a hardware nightmare. The amount of handshaking required to keep them in sync, not to mention all the firmware / software checks and balances would more or less negate the speed advantages of having two CPUs.

The easy version would be: 1 CPC for Gameplay / graphics and 1 CPC for sampled music / effects. With a few hardware handshakes to let the sound CPC know what music / effect it should be playing. You could put it all in one box of course, to make it appear as one computer :)

Bryce.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Octoate on 13:08, 26 May 10
In the CPCAI I found a hardware project on how to connect a SID chip to the CPC, but I guess it never worked correctly (or was it the self-built speech synthesizer!?). In another book I found a schematic on how to connect a second AY to the CPC. Maybe the schematics could be useful for your project?!
Btw, for a AY replacement you can use the VHDL description from FPGAArcade and for SID emulation you can use the pin compatible SwinSID emulator (based on a microcontroller).

@Bryce: At least I am always interested in hardware, so you can count me in - at least I will build the device, too :).
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Bryce on 13:29, 26 May 10
The SID idea was really just messing about. The more serious projects at the moment are 1) Low-cost interface for SDCard storage  2) Dktronics Speech synth without an SPO256. When I've finished them, I'll get around to playing with the SID.

Adding a second AY to a CPC shouldn't be difficult, but not many people have a spare AY to use?

But thanks for the encouragement, there'll be more projects to come. So keep the "iron" hot :)

Bryce.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Leonie on 14:07, 26 May 10
Quote from: Bryce on 10:26, 26 May 10
Ok, it's already 11:30 here, 10 o'clock has come and gone and I'm still here.
So Leonies death threats aren't to be taken seriously.
She didn't even eat my meat as promised.

My flight has been canceled.  :'(

Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Devilmarkus on 14:20, 26 May 10
Quote from: Leonie on 14:07, 26 May 10
My flight has been canceled.  :'(

Don't forget: we are m.e.n.
(masculine engineering noobs)
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Bryce on 14:45, 26 May 10
Take the train, we're in the same country :D

Bryce.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: MacDeath on 17:04, 26 May 10
Quotehttp://www.seekic.com/newstock/AY-3-8910_A,AY-3-8910A,AY38910A_P.html
Seem that some stocks of AY chips still exist.

Also FPGA can emulate AY/YM if wikipedia is right.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Leonie on 17:22, 26 May 10
Quote from: Gryzor on 15:46, 25 May 10
Cannibalise other systems?

Each Atari ST delivers one AY/YM...
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: MacDeath on 17:55, 26 May 10
Then cannibilize some Amstrad's Speccies... you may also cannibilize a second Z80... or some memory Chips...
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Gryzor on 07:33, 27 May 10
Quote from: Leonie on 17:22, 26 May 10

Each Atari ST delivers one AY/YM...

Don't you touch those sexy STs...
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: arnoldemu on 09:38, 27 May 10
Quote from: MacDeath on 17:55, 26 May 10
Then cannibilize some Amstrad's Speccies... you may also cannibilize a second Z80... or some memory Chips...
http://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27909&highlight=emulation

An alternative?

so can the cpc booster be reprogrammed as a second AY???? Hmmm...
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: MacDeath on 13:57, 27 May 10
Yeah, using the CPC as a Graphic card and adding another Core to do the soun ds and some stuff was what I thought about...
And yeah the problem would be that the duo could be so hard to manage that it would negate the gain, but this would allow too more complex stuff to be managed.

The Sega Megadrive was equipped with a Z80 as a Soundcard, its only job was to manage the sound processor, and also to be used in SegaMasterSystem emulation.

The problem with an amstrad, the Z80 is still struggling to do all the stuff : Graphics, Sounds and the rest...
So if you even add another AY/YM...You would simply be unable to do anything...unless you switch off the video of something like this.
You'll also need at least a 256K RAM computer perhaps.


The point is : if you add another AY/YM, you would probably have to put some sort of co-processor.

Perhaps DMA and VRAM/specific RAM with no need to really pass through the Z80 or only with some simple orders...

I've heard conserning the PLUS that if Amstrad bought/put some specific VRAM, the Video RAM could have been freed from the Z80 as in a MSX but I suppose this need a bit of extra wiring/hardware too ?

Can such features be added in Extension port ? or are we definitly screwed up ?


Also do you know where I can found a book related to those Extensions design on CPC ?

http://cpcrulez.fr/hardwareBOOK_montages_extension_peripheriques_du_CPC_00.htm

this one (in french of course) seem to be the only one I've seen, and it seems uncomplete at CPCrulez...)
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Bryce on 14:27, 27 May 10
Adding an extra AY shouldn't overload the CPU that much. Much less than say a Digiblaster.

The expansion port on the CPC doesn't allow any direct manipulation of the internal memory or mapping , so no, I doubt any extension will give you what you need. Adding dedicated VRAM would be almost re-designing the entire architecture and end up with a completely new - non-CPC-compatible 8-Bit computer.

I haven't seen that Book before. Is someone scanning in the rest, or is that all that's available?
There is a very similar book in German, but it doesn't really teach you any amazing CPC tricks, it's more of a "basics of logic guide" (It may even be the same content, just in German).

Bryce.

Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Octoate on 15:05, 27 May 10
This seems to be a translation of the german book "CPC-464 Hardware-Erweiterungen" by "Data Becker". I understand that they stopped the web conversion of the book, because it is very huge :). Some of those hardware extensions reappeared in the german book "Maschinenspracheprogramme und Hardware-Erweiterungen für den Amstrad CPC".

Btw, it was chapter 18 where they showed how to add a second AY to your CPC...
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: MacDeath on 20:39, 27 May 10
QuoteAdding dedicated VRAM would be almost re-designing the entire   architecture and end up with a completely new - non-CPC-compatible 8-Bit   computer.
Like a MSX ?

Post edit :
I meant "like a MSX minor the 19 268 colours mode"  :'( :'( :'(
;D
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Bryce on 20:39, 27 May 10
More or less :D

Bryce.
Title: Speech synthesizers, and doing vicious things to SIDs (use your allusion ;-))
Post by: OCT on 21:24, 10 June 10
Quote from: Octoate on 13:08, 26 May 10
In the CPCAI I found a hardware project on how to connect a SID chip to the CPC, but I guess it never worked correctly (or was it the self-built speech synthesizer!?).
Too far away from my collection again to look up either one (but it won't be long until someone finds these issues and brings this info to the Wiki I guess), however the recollection of a CPCAI project in one of its latest issues (or was it another of the German mags?) also was the first thing to come to my mind when I heard of the SID in this thread.
The CPCAI speech synthesizer, IIRC, could not have its power supplied from all CPCs, so there was some note/update to this effect - otherwise it was working fine AFAIK, and along with its brethren seems to have been analyzed and immortalized (to live on forever in Devilmarkus' emulation) lately in http://cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php/topic,503.0.html ...
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: MacDeath on 15:26, 11 June 10
Quote... I do have two SID chips here
Kill it with Fire !!! ???

:P

BTW, if I remember well, FM soundchips were quite good too...
Used in many Japanese machines...
Megadrive, advanced MSXs...

Perhaps a good way may be to find Soundchip cartridges upgrades for MSX... I think this stuff existed.
Perhaps no real need to even cannibalize them, a simple (or not) adapter could work, or not ?


another good source of cannibilisation : PC sound cards...
a good old AdLib or even soundblaster...
Perhaps easy to find, and also perhaps no need to really cannibalise : a ISA/ PCI /whatever adapter on CPC, this could exist as the CPC is basically a 8080 CGA PC...sort of...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonsound (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonsound)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_card (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_card)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Blaster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Blaster)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdLib (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdLib)

Lots of MSX cartridges... As being a Z80 computer, perhaps we may use them ?
http://www.faq.msxnet.org/fmpac.html
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: MacDeath on 17:33, 25 June 10
http://www.cpc-power.com/cpcarchives/index.php?page=articles&num=36 (http://www.cpc-power.com/cpcarchives/index.php?page=articles&num=36)

Found it. Thx to friends at CPCrulez...This book is in french, perhaps and english version or other does exist...

It features an extension called : Generateur de sons (sound generator).(page 243)which is actually...an extra AY3-8912 connected by the extension port. :o   

So by this mean, you can have your 2x AY on your CPC, getting up to 6 channels.
Isn't it exactly what you were looking for ?

Just replacing the AY by a correctly programmed FPGA may then fill your dreams...
Even seems promising with a 6128+...as an internal add-on card.
I alway wonder why didn't Amstrad put actually 2x AY (with DMA of course) on the PLUS range... I suppose because they put the AY inside the ASIC...

Getting 2 Asics instead of one could really have helped, also getting enought slots on Mainboards for 256K...and getting only 128K minimum settings...lol...and they simply didn't care.6 channels (despite being only AY-channels) seems interesting, as we know ohow difficult it may be to get both a sweet music and good sounds effect at the same time with only 3 channels.Many games enabled only Music OR Sounds...Gryzor being the prime exemple.(Some other didn't even bothered to include sounds at all...Paperboy...often due to the 64K RAM limit....grrrrrr...).

Yet, what is the difference between the "External AY" and the Built-in one ?Addresses are certainly different of course, but concerning memory access (the way you fill the AY with Datas...) are there some differences ?Could this be featured with "DMA channels" like method and perhaps its own memory ? not using that much of the Z80 ressources then ? After all, getting a FPGA emulating an AY may also enable extra stuff/functions...


I was thinking about some kind of extension Sound card with its own memory slots, then you may launch complete samples or sounds effects by simple commands from the CPU to the card...just like you would do some MIDI...

The CPC wouldn't actually produce the samples directly as with a Digiblaster.

You would just upload datas into the cards internal memory banks (where they would stay) whiole loading your game/demo...
And launch them at will by perhaps simple instructions, the card acting like a MIDI-programmable synthetiser-MP3 player or whatever...
With such mean, you simply do normal music with the internal AY from CPC, and your sounds effects are sampled stuffs...
A bit like the Atari STE features 2 additionnal sample channels in addition to the YM's 3 channels...

But having a second AY seems pleasant too .
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Ygdrazil on 21:33, 25 June 10
Seems to be great stuff indeed.. Sadly I don't master the French language!

/Ygdrazil

Quote from: MacDeath on 17:33, 25 June 10
http://www.cpc-power.com/cpcarchives/index.php?page=articles&num=36 (http://www.cpc-power.com/cpcarchives/index.php?page=articles&num=36)
Found it. Thx to friends at CPCrulez...This book is in french, perhaps and english version or other does exist...

It features an extension called : Generateur de sons (sound generator).(page 243)which is actually...an extra AY3-8912 connected by the extension port. :o   

So by this mean, you can have your 2x AY on your CPC, getting up to 6 channels.
Isn't it exactly what you were looking for ?

Just replacing the AY by a correctly programmed FPGA may then fill your dreams...
Even seems promising with a 6128+...as an internal add-on card.
I alway wonder why didn't Amstrad put actually 2x AY (with DMA of course) on the PLUS range... I suppose because they put the AY inside the ASIC...

Getting 2 Asics instead of one could really have helped, also getting enought slots on Mainboards for 256K...and getting only 128K minimum settings...lol...and they simply didn't care.6 channels (despite being only AY-channels) seems interesting, as we know ohow difficult it may be to get both a sweet music and good sounds effect at the same time with only 3 channels.Many games enabled only Music OR Sounds...Gryzor being the prime exemple.(Some other didn't even bothered to include sounds at all...Paperboy...often due to the 64K RAM limit....grrrrrr...).

Yet, what is the difference between the "External AY" and the Built-in one ?Addresses are certainly different of course, but concerning memory access (the way you fill the AY with Datas...) are there some differences ?Could this be featured with "DMA channels" like method and perhaps its own memory ? not using that much of the Z80 ressources then ? After all, getting a FPGA emulating an AY may also enable extra stuff/functions...


I was thinking about some kind of extension Sound card with its own memory slots, then you may launch complete samples or sounds effects by simple commands from the CPU to the card...just like you would do some MIDI...

The CPC wouldn't actually produce the samples directly as with a Digiblaster.

You would just upload datas into the cards internal memory banks (where they would stay) whiole loading your game/demo...
And launch them at will by perhaps simple instructions, the card acting like a MIDI-programmable synthetiser-MP3 player or whatever...
With such mean, you simply do normal music with the internal AY from CPC, and your sounds effects are sampled stuffs...
A bit like the Atari STE features 2 additionnal sample channels in addition to the YM's 3 channels...

But having a second AY seems pleasant too .

Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: MacDeath on 03:14, 26 June 10
Well...I spoke in Engrish... :P


concerning the book, it seems a non-french version may exist (Yet are those scanned ?).

And if you are well into Hardware, you may understand the schematics as well...

But yeah, it only seems that this montage allows the AYx2 wanted in the original post.
With even softwares way to handle it, yet it is more a way to actualy learn how the AY works than how to manage having 2 of those in a CPC...
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Octoate on 22:20, 26 June 10
Quote from: MacDeath on 17:33, 25 June 10
Found it. Thx to friends at CPCrulez...This book is in french, perhaps and english version or other does exist...
At least there is a german version of it called "CPC Hardware Erweiterungen", which was also released by Data Becker.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Leonie on 11:21, 27 June 10
Quote from: MacDeath on 17:33, 25 June 10
6 channels (despite being only AY-channels) seems interesting.

6 channels would allow a lot of things:

- sound modulations like SID-Voice
- lots of echos
- real chords
- 2 noisegenerators are really useful to fatten up the whole thing
- more samples to the same time


Why do you write "despite being only AY-Channels"?
That´s not charming!  :(
Just because the SID-Chip enables more sound variations doesn´t mean the AY-Chip sounds worse.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: MacDeath on 16:32, 27 June 10
QuoteWhy do you write "despite being only AY-Channels"?
That´s not   charming!  (http://cpcwiki.eu/forum/Smileys/akyhne/sad.gif)
Just because the   SID-Chip enables more sound variations doesn´t mean the AY-Chip sounds   worse.
I was just being ironic...
Seriously if the AY simply had more channels, it wouldn't have been bitched at by retrofans of chiptunes and could seriously compare betterly against most other soundchips.

3 channel is really the minimum to get something better than the 1 channel beeper... (ZX spectrum, Thomson's computers, old PC with internal speacker only...)... but it is clearly not enough IMO, yet it obliged musicians to be clever and inventive.

Amiga with only +1 channel (4 channel) is completely superior not only because its soundchip is a clever synthetiser...also because of the +1 channel.
But Atari STE with its YM...and additionnal sampled sounds 2 channels, is clearly really good enough to display great things...

what push me red is that most chiptunes you can find on Youtube use NES /nintendo 8 bit or Sid perhaps...
I don't like Sid that much (bleeds my ears) but I mostly hate Nintendo sound...completely horrible sounds IMO.

A good AY is not the most powerfull Soundchip, yet i really like its bass-sounds and if cleverly used, it can really do nice job too.

So yeah and Amstrad with doubled AY is clearly no more the same sound machine...but this is not easily usable during games or demo, as we know Amstrad had problems with its central memory being used by everything but the Z80...lol...sort of...

So getting a second AY as an external extension sound card may perhaps enable it (with a few additionnal components) to really act as a sound card... with its own memory and needing actually a few CPU support
Precalculated stuff and so on... the CPU just order stuff, the card does the rest.


A FPGA can actually emulate (reproduce) an AY if I remember well.

So as those stuff are quite powerfull nowadays, additionnal management features may certainly be added, acting like real DMA channel and a bit of its own memory and its memory access management.

The main advantage to keep the amstrad's AY setting is also that it is then compatible with all existing AY stuffs...
So in case of a game enabling only Music OR sounds ...

Notorious and obvious exemples are Robocop and Gryzor...

But some games existed on Both Speccy and Amstrad... and the amstrad Version per exemple would not get in-game music while Speccy would (which ones ?)

a simple patch would allow to get Both.
Music being alsmot Automatic playing, it is then managed simply by the external card, while good old CPU manages the traditionnal sounds (which may need more activations along the action, as it goes along the gameplay).


And as for a Digiblaster, would need a few component so you plug your CPC sound on this and then plug your Hi-fi to the card, perhaps with a pair of potentiometers to mix CPC sound and Card's sound...

As in modern games where you can set the sound levels of background's sounds effects, Music, Voices and so on (WOW per exemple...).


IMO such a 2xAY external soundcard would even be "better" than a digiblaster...
Not better in that those have different functions, but better in that it would be more usefull.

Digiblaster of course allows to "print" samples of great quality...but real applications are not that usable IMO in a Game/Demo environment.
Use a lot of Z80 ressources actually...and is totally obsolete.
Yet very simple montage too as few complicated chips are needed...


If done well, this may also enable the CPC+ extra sound capability for a CPC old...such as playing PLUS version of Prehistorik 2 music on the CPC old.

Because the aim would not be to get simply 2x "CPC old  AY" but the +1 "PLUS AY" with DMA/auto-management stuffs.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: steve on 17:17, 27 June 10
A second processor card with 128k/512k ram, plugged into the expansion slot could run the main program, leaving the original mainboard processor to send data to the sound chip(s) as well as all other i/o ports, it's not an easy thing to do but it would accelerate the CPC more than a simple sound card would.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Leonie on 20:05, 27 June 10
Quote from: MacDeath on 16:32, 27 June 10
3 channel is really the minimum....but it is clearly not enough IMO, yet it obliged musicians to be clever and inventive.

Clever and inventive........this is the wonderful thing about the AY-Chip.
It´s career was a gradual climb.
Incredible, what you can tickle out of this freaky cheeky small Chip.


Quote from: MacDeath on 16:32, 27 June 10
3 channel is really the minimum to get something better than the 1 channel beeper......

Don´t forget the noisegenerator!
This nice compoment really adds some magic flesh.


Quote from: MacDeath on 16:32, 27 June 10
Amiga with only +1 channel (4 channel) is completely superior not only because its soundchip is a clever synthetiser...also because of the +1 channel.

I say No! No! No!
Amiga´s Paula-Chip is not a clever synthesizer, it´s just a simple Sample-Bitch.
But hey, clever musicians can do clever things with that Paula-Lady...
But basically, it´s a Sample-Player without synthcapabilities.

Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: TFM on 21:14, 27 June 10
Quote from: Bryce on 18:24, 25 May 10
... I do have two SID chips here, and I've been playing around with the idea of building a SID based CPC Soundcard.

Well, don't invent the wheel again. Such a SID card was already made by the CPCAI, but I would NEVER EVER touch a sid. It is evil!!! From hell!!! No support under FutureOS :-P
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: TFM on 21:18, 27 June 10
Quote from: mr_lou on 20:04, 25 May 10
Personally I don't see the idea of building advanced soundcards for the CPC. I don't think anyone will ever buy them.

Oh there is the CPC Booster+ which enables the CPC to sample sound and to play samples. A ot of people (including me) already bought it!
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: TFM on 21:21, 27 June 10
Quote from: Bryce on 10:26, 26 May 10
... I hadn't intended making a dual SID card, just a single SID would have been enough.

Not even stereo, how poor :P
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: TFM on 21:25, 27 June 10
Quote from: Bryce on 13:05, 26 May 10
Woooaaaa, a dual CPU system based on z80s would be a hardware nightmare.

It's all not that wild... My Genie IIIs has one Z80 with 8 MHz and a second Z80 with 8 MHz. Both share 64 KB if they like. It's like banking memory. It workes fine. German technique ;-) btw: The second Z80 is on the Ultra/8 card. I could add four more of them ;-)
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Gryzor on 07:53, 28 June 10
Quote from: MacDeath on 17:33, 25 June 10

I alway wonder why didn't Amstrad put actually 2x AY (with DMA of course) on the PLUS range... I suppose because they put the AY inside the ASIC...

Why, couldn't they have put two AY's in the ASIC? Just saying...

@TFM: there's a multi-quote function above every post mate, so that you don't need to post multiple replies for each post you quote...
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: arnoldemu on 09:39, 28 June 10
Quote from: Gryzor on 07:53, 28 June 10
Why, couldn't they have put two AY's in the ASIC? Just saying...

@TFM: there's a multi-quote function above every post mate, so that you don't need to post multiple replies for each post you quote...
Well they didn't put the AY into the ASIC they only added the functions for sending data more quickly to the AY using the special DMA.

They couldn't put one or 2 AY's into the ASIC, because they didn't have enough gates free to implement it.
They could do it with a bigger ASIC, but I am sure price was the problem.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Leonie on 10:35, 28 June 10
Quote from: TFM/FS on 21:14, 27 June 10
...NEVER EVER touch a SID.
It is evil!!! From hell!!! No support under FutureOS :-P


This is true enough!

:o The SID is one of the greatest threats to mankind. It is Adolf Hitler in chip-form! :o


Can´t you see it in the children´s eyes?
It´s about to get wild.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: MacDeath on 10:42, 28 June 10
I was surprised even this thread couldn't get some goodwin point...

Thx leonie.



Ok, I was in error, I supposed the AY was emulated inside the ASIC, which is not true, there are just DMA channels for an AY.

QuoteIt's all not that wild... My Genie IIIs has one Z80 with 8   MHz and a second Z80 with 8 MHz. Both share 64 KB if they like. It's   like banking memory. It workes fine. German technique ;-) btw: The   second Z80 is on the Ultra/8 card. I could add four more of them ;-)
And we know Germany beat Britania...yesterday.                                                                                                                                                              
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: arnoldemu on 11:02, 28 June 10
Quote from: MacDeath on 10:42, 28 June 10
I was surprised even this thread couldn't get some goodwin point...

Thx leonie.



Ok, I was in error, I supposed the AY was emulated inside the ASIC, which is not true, there are just DMA channels for an AY.
And we know Germany beat Britania...yesterday.                                                                                                                                     
Yes, the English team performed poorly.

BTW, you sig is not working anymore.
No link to click.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Leonie on 11:56, 28 June 10
Quote from: arnoldemu on 11:15, 28 June 10
Well, at least you didn't say that we all play on commodore c64's  :P

I wouldn´t dream of such a evil thing!
Apart from this...If I would say that, Gryzor would ban my account. (offensive posts...)
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Gryzor on 12:00, 28 June 10
Quote from: Leonie on 11:56, 28 June 10

I wouldn´t dream of such a evil thing!
Apart from this...If I would say that, Gryzor would ban my account. (offensive posts...)


You bet (http://cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php/topic,820.msg10085.html#msg10085) I would.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: MacDeath on 15:47, 28 June 10
QuoteBTW, you sig is not working anymore.
No link to click.
Yeah, I saw but took no time to fix that, until now... ::)


BTW, do you think an extension card featuring a second AY alongside a memory extension would be good ?

I mean, actually the possibilities to only play some games with both sounds and music seems great to me.
Also concerning Chiptune performance, this may be great too...

AY riderz often use many ZX speccies to get their tunes live...but with such a card, a 6 channel in one computer can actually simplify well your hardware setting.

So a 6128+ with and extra AY and extra memory enables sweet stuffs IMO.


Yet what about the synchronising of computers then : do you need to be a bit synched if you are to play music and video with more than one machine, not ?

Can this be achieved with a real-time clock per exemple ? or does it only need a mundane networking ?

AY Riderz are cool and great in that they choose the "hard way" in a Sid and nintendork world...

And yeah Amstrad's AY is a bit inferior than a speccy's one, for sid sound perhaps...
Also  less RAM because of the Video Ram or whatever...

But this still remains a fully usable AY... with a reliable machine, good Graphical interface (in CGA...sort of) and so on.

Perhaps a 6128+ (or cpc6128) with such an additionnal AY+Extra memory card, and a Digiblaster... (because this remains a good Sample source, and a quite cheap and simple card actually...)
and of course a 3'1/2 disk drive or perhaps even in a double decker setting... ;) should check it this can be done on a 6128+...need to cut some plastic parts...
...would be quite sweet.

QuoteYes, the English team performed poorly.
The french team circus was great, Lulz were had, yet that's not really football... :o
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: TFM on 19:58, 28 June 10
Quote from: Leonie on 11:56, 28 June 10
I wouldn´t dream of such a evil thing!

That would be the ultimate nightmare on every street (not only Elm street).

The AY is fine, just do some good work with it, some did, some will do.

And if you want MP3 quality, then connect an MP3 card to your CPC ;-) For PC users it's a common thing to swap the sound-card.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: TFM on 20:17, 28 June 10
Quote from: Gryzor on 07:53, 28 June 10
@TFM: there's a multi-quote function above every post mate, so that you don't need to post multiple replies for each post you quote...

Yes, thanks, I've seen it, but this way is easier, it's also easier the quote for the next one.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Gryzor on 10:13, 29 June 10
Quote from: TFM/FS on 20:17, 28 June 10

Yes, thanks, I've seen it, but this way is easier, it's also easier the quote for the next one.

Yes, but it messes up the thread. Please use the multi-quote function, that's why it's there.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: MacDeath on 14:29, 29 June 10
Just to perhaps launch a poll : would you be interested by an extension Soundcard featuring an additionnal AY and perhaps some additionnal memory ?

also has anyone tried the extension card described in the book with the 2nd AY ?

Would you support such stuff in your productions ?


Of course as said above, you can still put a MP3 card per exemple...
But getting a second AY is interesting in that it is completely compatible with all the existing Amstrad Library, but also Speccy 128, a few MSX and Atari ST.

Such card would perhaps only feature a FPGA, a Memory (RAM...perhaps Flash-ROM too ? just 1 or 2 chips would suffice IMO), a microcontroller to manage it betterly (just need to see how FPGA would do too...lots of models) and connectics (a socket for the FPGA too)... and a pair of small basic components to certainly.

This would be a basic RAM/ROM box + the additionnal AY...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Instrument_AY-3-8910 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Instrument_AY-3-8910)
QuoteThe chips are no longer made, but a declining stock is still obtainable   for servicing vintage machines. A VHDL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHDL)   equivalent description has been written, for use in FPGA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FPGA) recreations of arcade machines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcade_machines) and others like those   mentioned above. The VHDL source code is available on the Internet, and   compiles to fill about 10% of a Xilinx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xilinx)   XC2S300 FPGA.

If it only use 10% of this FPGA, it may be implemented in relatively cheapest (and smaller) FPGA.

But it needs a better investigation just to see if this is realitic, cost-wise...
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: steve on 15:36, 29 June 10
If you were to do this, maybe you could add some of the features of the plus ula to the FPGA, also there is a single 32 pin chip that contains 512KB ram and a RTC both have battery backup, so the memory is non-volatile and would simulate "writeable" ROMs, it could be an alternative to loading tapes every time, oh, and you might as well put in a lightpen socket for completeness.
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: MacDeath on 00:16, 30 June 10
Actually, getting an additional AY or another Z80 is not that hard (FPGA's are so powerfull nowadays...), but knowing what a next gen Amstrad has to be---be... ???
Especially as a 1 chip computer...

Not that simple. (nor economical...but we have to ask/see ?)

The ASIC (+ ACID) is not that hard to undrstand, yet...
Also, the ACID part is soo.. well... and ASIC 's too...
forget about it.... only 25 games in overall...

On the other hand, we all know the Amstrad needed not that much to be on top, as a pseudo PC Cga+ & better... or a 8 bit Atari STE...


But more seriously, a FPGA based Amstrad Extention...

We'ld have to check...whether...(weather ?)...


I'm sure a well designed FPGA+Microcontroller card+memory... can achieve a "universal status... in CPC world.


Because of both components... you can re-design almost every thing... then get a re-programable "universal" extension.... (even more powerfull than the original CPU...easily...)...

So yeah.
What do we really want or need ???
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: Gryzor on 08:52, 30 June 10
I approve of where this is going.

Maybe team-up for a new Symbiface?
Title: Re: 2xYM2149
Post by: arnoldemu on 09:24, 30 June 10
Reality check. All this extra hardware is great *but* needs support.

2 x AY could have support from Arkos Tracker, this would then mean composing tunes by those who are less technical would be easy, and for programmers, they would just drop the player in with an appropiate detection routine (to check if the hardware exists).

The digiblaster has limited support and really could do with lots more extra programs that use it to really push it towards the must have extension.

The extra ram/rom is good, and already some hardware supports this, but still needs more support from programs that use it, and this is basically what the 64k/128k or more thread is really about.

A programmable cpc+ cartridge is great, and I would definitely get one and write programs for it.
But still, I would also like it so that the programs that were made for it, could also be put onto onto a real rom and put into a gx4000, 464+, 6128+ and run there.

I would see the programmable cpc+ cart as a great way to experience the existing games and also to develop new games.

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