CPCWiki forum

Has anyone made a 4-player joystick adapter for standard CPC?

Or, a 2-player adapter for the expansion port (like the C64 has) + a Y-splitter for the joystick port, also resulting in 4 joystick inputs?

Quote from: mr_lou on 11:36, 29 June 15
Has anyone made a 4-player joystick adapter for standard CPC?

Or, a 2-player adapter for the expansion port (like the C64 has) + a Y-splitter for the joystick port, also resulting in 4 joystick inputs?

How exactly would a 4 player adapter work when the CPC only has a port, hardware and firmware for two joysticks?

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 12:52, 29 June 15
How exactly would a 4 player adapter work when the CPC only has a port, hardware and firmware for two joysticks?

If the C64 can do it, surely the CPC can too.

Some kind of board connected to the expansion port, giving 2 additional joystick ports.
Would require a set of RSX commands to use them from BASIC.

Amstrad CPC version of this: 4 Player Interface - C64-Wiki (https://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/4_Player_Interface)

@ToTO: Your ideas are needed here ;)

I thought there was a video review of Gauntlet that said the CPC had trouble enough doing 2 joysticks?

Quote from: Carnivac on 13:13, 29 June 15
I thought there was a video review of Gauntlet that said the CPC had trouble enough doing 2 joysticks?

I heard that too, but I also recall TFM saying something about it only being because the Y-splitter wasn't made correctly.
@TFM (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=179) are you there?

Quote from: Carnivac on 13:13, 29 June 15
I thought there was a video review of Gauntlet that said the CPC had trouble enough doing 2 joysticks?

Yes CPC does have problems unless you have a splitter with diodes. PLUS will be fine because it has the diodes.

Oh cool.  Where can I get a splitter for 464/6128 with diodes?

From other thread:

Using CPC+ hardware sprites from BASIC? (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/programming/using-cpc-hardware-sprites-from-basic/msg102969/#msg102969)

Your best choice is to have specific hardware that connects into the expansion port to enable 4 joysticks.
The reading of this would be independent of the keyboard so no clash would happen.

Quote from: arnoldemu on 13:21, 29 June 15
Your best choice is to have specific hardware that connects into the expansion port to enable 4 joysticks.
The reading of this would be independent of the keyboard so no clash would happen.

We gotta have that!
And we also gotta have Y-splitters with diodes.

Next time I'll meet up with my mates for a retro-gaming-day, will be August 15th. So far we've only had multiplayer games running on the C64 and Amiga. It's about time the CPC joins in.  :)

Quote from: Carnivac on 13:20, 29 June 15
Oh cool.  Where can I get a splitter for 464/6128 with diodes?

Eh... I know a great place full of CPC information, let's see if they have anything on it: Joystick Splitter - CPCWiki (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Joystick_Splitter) :D

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 13:39, 29 June 15
Eh... I know a great place full of CPC information, let's see if they have anything on it: Joystick Splitter - CPCWiki (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Joystick_Splitter) :D

Bryce.

but...but...that's instructions about how to make one.  And I have no skills or tools.

Recoding Caprice for the RPI to get 2 joy support, the idea of enabling 3 or 4 joysticks seems easy as the keyboard matrix is 10 select lines and 8 outputs. Coding the second joystick is the same as a thirth or fourth...

The joystick is just one of the select lines.The second joystick is other of the keyboard select lines. So there are other 8 lines for other 8 joysticks.

The hack will look dirty and ugly, but you need to take 2 selects from keyboard to feed the double Y splitter. Diodes apart, your splitter needs the 4 direction bits, fires and common 1 common 2 from the CPC joystick port, and common 3 and 4 from 2 wires from inside the CPC.

As a 4 player game let you freely redefine all keys, should work.

Quote from: arnoldemu on 13:06, 29 June 15
@TotO (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=290): Your ideas are needed here ;)

I have shown a prototype board named MultiPlay at the ReSeT #20.
We have played to Megablaster and a simple but adictive four players tron game from Axelay, named QuadRaster!

The Multiplay prototype add 2 controllers connectors on the expansion port.
(CPC/GX or SMS/MD using two sliding switches)

Quote from: TotO on 13:57, 29 June 15
I have shown a prototype board named MultiPlay at the ReSeT #20.
We have played to Megablaster and a simple but adictive four players tron game from Axelay, named QuadRaster!

The Multiplay prototype add 2 controllers connectors on the expansion port.
(CPC/GX or SMS/MD using two sliding switches)

Awesome! Where can we order one?  :)

Quote from: mr_lou on 14:08, 29 June 15
Awesome! Where can we order one?  :)

The board is not finalised, but will not cost more than 10€ if released.
I should try to merge it with the PlayCity... (in this case I will make an upgrade plan)

Quote from: TotO on 14:32, 29 June 15
The board is not finalised, but will not cost more than 10€ if released.
I should try to merge it with the PlayCity... (in this case I will make an upgrade plan)

....."if released"?...
Sorry for sounding blunt, but why create it if not for release?

Well, I'd definitely buy one, although I'd prefer a standalone version, ie. not merged with PlayCity.

So I assume your board doesn't use the spare Keyboard lines like KaosOverride just described?

@mr_lou (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=96): Have you any idea how many expansions I've designed and built for the CPC and other systems but never released them? :D This happens very often.

Bryce.

Quote from: mr_lou on 14:43, 29 June 15
....."if released"?...
Sorry for sounding blunt, but why create it if not for release?

It is a prototype for testing and see the real interrest abou it.
As I said, I should improve it before for merging features... (or release it like that, or both)
Too much boards for so few slots. ;)

Quote from: Bryce on 14:45, 29 June 15
So I assume your board doesn't use the spare Keyboard lines like KaosOverride just described?

It is true. Because the spare line is sadly not wired on PLUS.
I have made a try on the expansion port, using two buffers like done on videogames systems.

yes, saw it working...

can't wait for a 3-4 players Rampage game... with no keyboard clashes...

I want one lol. Either with or without play city suits me.

Quote from: Bryce on 14:45, 29 June 15
@mr_lou (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=96): Have you any idea how many expansions I've designed and built for the CPC and other systems but never released them? :D This happens very often.

Well shame on you!  :)

Quote from: TotO on 14:56, 29 June 15
It is a prototype for testing and see the real interrest about it.

Well send it here, I'll test.  ;)
I want to make a 4-player game. I'm the ideal betatester. I have both CPC464, CPC6128 and CPCBryce+ (heavily expanded 464+ by Bryce)

Yeah, when it is time to get free cards by being a betatester, there are many volunteers, but when it is time to deliver productions to use those cards.... oops...
:laugh:


the card works well, it just needs games.  ;D

Quote from: MacDeath on 16:50, 29 June 15
Yeah, when it is time to get free cards by being a betatester, there are many volunteers, but when it is time to deliver productions to use those cards.... oops...
:laugh:


the card works well, it just needs games.  ;D

I will pay a good price for a complete board.
I also sometimes send money to developers just to support them, and would do it in this case too if I see any sign of it actually being produced.
But for testing something that might not be the finished product, yes that ought to be free.

As for producing games, I have enough experience to know not to promise anything, but I'm hooked on this idea, and we are working on the graphics as I'm writing this.

First of all though, I'm interested in having the hardware developers agree on a standard, so that future games only need to focus on one 4-player adapter.

Quote from: MacDeath on 16:50, 29 June 15
Yeah, when it is time to get free cards by being a betatester, there are many volunteers, but when it is time to deliver productions to use those cards.... oops...
:laugh:
the card works well, it just needs games.  ;D

That's a bit unfair. Maybe you could say it about other people, but mr_lou is one person who definitely supports the development of new hardware every time.

Bryce.

Thank you Bryce.

Is there any chance you can take a look at Toto's prototype, and tell us your thoughts on it? Perhaps ask @gerald (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=250) too what he thinks?

It would be awesome if the hardware developers could all agree that this is how the "standard 4-player adapter" should be.  :)

Quote from: mr_lou on 19:14, 29 June 15
Thank you Bryce.

Is there any chance you can take a look at Toto's prototype, and tell us your thoughts on it? Perhaps ask @gerald (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=250) too what he thinks?

It would be awesome if the hardware developers could all agree that this is how the "standard 4-player adapter" should be.  :)

In order to save some IO port I would do the following :
- Use the PPI port C address (used to select keyboard line) and use the non decoded lines 10 to 11 to select 2 more to joysticks. That requires decoding that port and a 4 bit DFF.
- add a 4 to 1 mux on controlled by line value to select one of 4 joystick accordingly (line 6, 9, 10, 11). Each joystick having its connector
- have a cable that connect the output of the mux to the original joystick port.

Doing so gives us :
- 4 joystick port, without clash between them (thanks to the mux). However they still can clash with the keyboard.
- 2 of these port are compatible with the original one
- getting additional joystick state only require extending the current keyboard scan to 2 more lines.

The only drawback is the space required by all the DB9 connectors

Quote from: mr_lou on 13:19, 29 June 15
I heard that too, but I also recall TFM saying something about it only being because the Y-splitter wasn't made correctly.
@TFM (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=179) are you there?

Yes, that's right. Adding Diodes will solve the problem. Now how to get 4 players up gaming?


If only using the joystick port of the CPC6128 we have too 'exits' and seven 'inputs'. Now if we add a very small board which separates the signals from joysticks we could use the two 'exits' as 01, 10 and 11 (not 00, which would just say - nothing happens -). So 3 * 7 + 21... Four players need 4 directions + fire equals 4 * 5 + 20!!!
Cool works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :) :) :)

Quote from: TotO on 14:56, 29 June 15
It is true. Because the spare line is sadly not wired on PLUS.

Right. And by adding a short piece of wire or a diode (I forgot which one it was), it can be very easy be patched. Even people who are not super solderers can do it. And all Plusses should be upgraded that way anyway (imho).  :) :) :)

QuoteThat's a bit unfair. Maybe you could say it about other people, but mr_lou is one person who definitely supports the development of new hardware every time.

I wasn't implying anything mr_lou specific... it was a general comment. I don't have any specific name to name. :D

Sorry if this was taken as such.

Quote from: TFM on 20:06, 29 June 15

Yes, that's right. Adding Diodes will solve the problem. Now how to get 4 players up gaming?


If only using the joystick port of the CPC6128 we have too 'exits' and seven 'inputs'. Now if we add a very small board which separates the signals from joysticks we could use the two 'exits' as 01, 10 and 11 (not 00, which would just say - nothing happens -). So 3 * 7 + 21... Four players need 4 directions + fire equals 4 * 5 + 20!!!
Cool works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :) :) :)

That's a neat idea, but would involve major changes to the Firmware.
@Gerald: If I recall correctly, you've already done a PS/2 keyboard expansion that interfaces to the CPC at exactly the right spot. Would it not be easiest to add the two new Joystick ports to this expansion?

Bryce.

I see some great input.

I should probably clarify something though.

I'm not sure why it's called a "4-player adapter". But the C64 people calls it that too, even though it's actually just a 2-player adapter. But adding those two to the existing two ports makes it possible to connect 4 joysticks.

So, I'm thinking the board should just offer 2 additional joystick ports, not 4.

Standard CPC's will then of course also need a proper Y-splitter for the existing joystick port.

My vote goes for anything that requires no modification of the CPC. Even if it is just a single diode or wire needed to be soldered. Most people simply won't do it.
We need something that will work on all models without any fuzz.  :)

My personal preference will be a standalone board, without any other stuff. But I'm thinking, if the hardware guys agrees on the protocol, then the adapter could exist in many forms, and included on various other boards too.

Let's boil it down:

- 4 Players can be done
- The firmware will of course only support two joysticks
- An  new I/O card can make the four new ports very quick to handle
- A solution which targets the keyboard matrix will allow to play all games (which allow to 'define keys')

Now another thing. In case one would do a new interface, it could be an advantage to add interrupt capability to have a high resolution (and also simplify things somehow - ok, only my pov).

Quote from: Bryce on 21:13, 29 June 15
@Gerald: If I recall correctly, you've already done a PS/2 keyboard expansion that interfaces to the CPC at exactly the right spot. Would it not be easiest to add the two new Joystick ports to this expansion?

It would be difficult space wise, the original PC2CPC is internal : where to put the additional DE09 port  ;)

Quote from: mr_lou on 21:41, 29 June 15
I'm not sure why it's called a "4-player adapter". But the C64 people calls it that too, even though it's actually just a 2-player adapter. But adding those two to the existing two ports makes it possible to connect 4 joysticks.

So, I'm thinking the board should just offer 2 additional joystick ports, not 4.

That's what TotO's interface do, but the 2 additional joysticks are on specific IO ports (for Z80 point of view) and requires specific code for reading them.
But that solution does not help regarding joystick 0 / joystick 1 clash.

What I was proposing is a solution that : allow 4 joysticks, without clash, using the same keyboard scan function extended to have two more lines.

In both case, no modification are required to the CPC.

How can you access two more lines without hardware modification? The 6128 has 9 pin out and.... anything else needs to go to the keyboard connector!?!? Where do I miss the point?

Quote from: TFM on 22:22, 29 June 15
How can you access two more lines without hardware modification? The 6128 has 9 pin out and.... anything else needs to go to the keyboard connector!?!? Where do I miss the point?

The joystick port exposes 7 row of the keyboard matrix + 2 lines.
The idea is to have an extension that deal with the 4 joysticks lines (selected like the keyboard lines : same IO port, but managed the extension) and send the rows to the AY by being connected to the joystick port.

Quote from: gerald on 22:01, 29 June 15
It would be difficult space wise, the original PC2CPC is internal : where to put the additional DE09 port  ;) That's what TotO's interface do, but the 2 additional joysticks are on specific IO ports (for Z80 point of view) and requires specific code for reading them.
But that solution does not help regarding joystick 0 / joystick 1 clash.

That's how I understood it too. It can't be accessed from BASIC without a set of RSX commands.
However, the joystick 0 / joystick 1 clashing should be solved with a proper Y-splitter with diodes.

Quote from: gerald on 22:01, 29 June 15
What I was proposing is a solution that : allow 4 joysticks, without clash, using the same keyboard scan function extended to have two more lines.

So your 4-player adapter requires no set of RSX commands in order to use it from BASIC? If so, that surely sounds sweet.
Does that also mean, that any game that offers redefinition of controls, can receive signals from this 4-player adapter?

I guess this explains why Y cables have problems with joysticks conflicting with each other. I assume the mod in the Joystick Splitter - CPCWiki (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Joystick_Splitter)  article would correct that?

Quote from: Dizrythmia on 07:27, 30 June 15
I guess this explains why Y cables have problems with joysticks conflicting with each other. I assume the mod in the Joystick Splitter - CPCWiki (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Joystick_Splitter)  article would correct that?

Yes, that's what they say.  :)
So having a Y-splitter with diodes for existing 2-player games is a good idea. But it sounds like this 4-player adapter might be solving that problem too, when gerald says that two of the ports on this new 4-player adapter is compatible with the existing two.

Quote from: gerald on 22:01, 29 June 15what TotO's interface do, but the 2 additional joysticks are on specific IO ports (for Z80 point of view) and requires specific code for reading them.

In all cases, you need a specific code to read more than 2 controllers... Here, by reading the I/O port.
i.e. from BASIC: JOYA=INP(&F990) : JOYB=INP(&F991)

Quote from: gerald on 22:01, 29 June 15But that solution does not help regarding joystick 0 / joystick 1 clash.

Sure, because I don't handle JOY0 and JOY1.
Amstrad put this part into the JY-2 controller, to reduce the computer cost. So, it is not a proplem if peoples use a JY-2 controller, a properly built Y-cable or a PLUS computer.

Quote from: TotO on 07:49, 30 June 15
In all cases, you need a specific code to read more than 2 controllers...

How does one read input from your 2-player adapter?

Quote from: mr_lou on 07:59, 30 June 15
How does one read input from your 2-player adapter?

From BASIC, like I wrote in my previous post.
JOYA=INP(&F990) : JOYB=INP(&F991)

For example, to test the JOYA:
10 PRINT BIN$(INP(&F990),8):GOTO 10

Quote from: TotO on 08:12, 30 June 15
From BASIC, like I wrote in my previous post.
JOYA=INP(&F990) : JOYB=INP(&F991)

For example, to test the JOYA:
10 PRINT BIN$(INP(&F990),8):GOTO 10

Oh, I thought you were referring to the other 4-player adapter when talking about the INP commands.
Well, I think that's a good way of doing it, because it doesn't require any RSX commands.

@gerald (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=250), will your 4-player adapter be readable the same way? Or how does one read that?
Sorry for asking stupid questions. I'm not a hardware guy.

If yes, it would be great if hardware developers could just agree that joystick 3 would be on &F990 and joystick 4 would be on &F991 and give the same values for directions. That way anyone could make his own adapter.
If no, then how does one read the input from BASIC with your adapter idea gerald?

My first idea was to offer four (A, B, C, D) new inputs using ports: F990, F991, F992, F993
Because it is accurate like arcade machine and easy to build and use.
Now, I thing that 2 (A, B) controllers is enough and allow to fit on a MX4 board.

Quote from: TotO on 09:38, 30 June 15
My first idea was to offer four (A, B, C, D) new inputs using ports: F990, F991, F992, F993
Because it is accurate like arcade machine and easy to build and use.
Now, I thing that 2 (A, B) controllers is enough and allow to fit on a MX4 board.

The problem with that idea is the complete lack of compatibility with existing software. It would recreate the terrible situation with joysticks on the spectrum.

Quote from: andycadley on 10:01, 30 June 15
The problem with that idea is the complete lack of compatibility with existing software. It would recreate the terrible situation with joysticks on the spectrum.

I don't see how.
Existing games will still use the existing port (splitable into 2 if you want).
The 2 additional ports will only be used for 4-player games, as far as I can see - just like the C64 adapter is used.

Quote from: andycadley on 10:01, 30 June 15
The problem with that idea is the complete lack of compatibility with existing software.

Compatibility with what? Nothing in the past use more than 2 joysticks on CPC.  :-\
Today, MegaBlaster and QuadRaster already use it.

Quote from: mr_lou on 07:23, 30 June 15
So your 4-player adapter requires no set of RSX commands in order to use it from BASIC? If so, that surely sounds sweet.
Does that also mean, that any game that offers redefinition of controls, can receive signals from this 4-player adapter?

You will need either RSX or a FW patch to access the additional joystick, just because the FW does not know they exist.
The only advantages over TotO's solution are :
  - No additional IO space required, we use an existing IO address
  - Access is method is identical to keyboard and joysticks0/1. Only 2 more lines to scan

Hm....

So, Toto's solution is compatible with existing games. Megablasters was made in 1994, so the adapter must have been invented 11 years ago already?
I'm definitely in favour of not inventing new protocols, because that will exactly create the compatibility problem andy talks about.

I'm not interested in having 2 different kinds of joystick adapters to switch between. One should be sufficient.

Considering that Toto's solution is compatible with existing games, and gerald's idea requires RSX commands or FW patching, I have to lean towards Toto's board.

I have to ask, @gerald (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=250), why create a new protocol? Is the benefit of saving IO space really that valuable? Are we talking a really significant speed-up compared to the existing adapter?

Not saying we can't have both, but I don't see myself adding support for both adapters in whatever games I would create...

Quote from: mr_lou on 11:50, 30 June 15
So, Toto's solution is compatible with existing games. Megablasters was made in 1994, so the adapter must have been invented 11 years ago already?

I strongly think than Megablasters has been patched  ;)

Quote from: mr_lou on 11:50, 30 June 15
Considering that Toto's solution is compatible with existing games, and gerald's idea requires RSX commands or FW patching, I have to lean towards Toto's board.

I'm pretty sure ToTOs device also needs an RSX or Firmware changes to work with any game.

Bryce.

The gerald's way to do is clever. It is more CPC original design in mind.
Mine use the port range defined into the cpcwiki I/O page to be friendly with my ACME boards.

About MegaBlasters and QuadRaster, they are Axelay's games.
The MultiPlay not replace the original controls. It add 2 new controls.

The facts as I understand them:

- Both methods require support from coders or games patched. Neither will work immediately with no changes
- ToTO's is easier for a user to install, provided they have an MX4. geralds requires some soldering and modification which some/most users will not be able to do.
- ToTO's method uses 2 i/o ports. geralds doesn't need any more ports.
- ToTO's method is faster to read compared to geralds method.
- Both give extra joystick inputs.
- ToTo's has no clash with keyboard. I think I read that gerald's is also immune to clash??

EDIT: Originally I put my opinion, but mr_lou is correct. I have modified my post.

Quote from: Bryce on 12:53, 30 June 15
I'm pretty sure ToTOs device also needs an RSX or Firmware changes to work with any game.

Is that true @TotO (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=290)?

Quote from: arnoldemu on 13:30, 30 June 15
My opinion:

- Both methods require support from coders or games patched. Neither will work immediately with no changes
- ToTO's is easier for a user to install, provided they have an MX4. geralds requires some soldering and modification which some/most users will not be able to do.
- ToTO's method uses 2 i/o ports. geralds doesn't need any more ports.
- ToTO's method is faster to read compared to geralds method.
- Both give extra joystick inputs.
- ToTo's has no clash with keyboard. I think I read that gerald's is also immune to clash??

Looks more like a list of facts rather than your opinion.  :)

But anyway, as soon as it requires soldering and/or modification to the CPC, I'm going to prefer the other idea.

But I also have this perception, that adding more joystick inputs is not cheating....  but adding a MX4 / PlayCity is a bit cheating....
So if the adapter comes bundles with PlayCity, then I'm sure developers will start using the other things that board offers, ultimately resulting in a new series of "PlayCity games" - rather than "4-player games".
At the moment, I don't much like that idea.... but that's probably just me.

The MultiPlay board add 2 extra controllers connetors to play up to 4 players.
No Firmware or RSX are needed to manage it as it not allow to play existing games w/o patchs.

About the PlayCity, many CPC users own it. If developpers want to create a 4 players game using it (or using X-MEM or anything else), you are not able to prevent developpers to take fun with that.

Quote from: TotO on 15:05, 30 June 15
The MultiPlay board add 2 extra controllers connetors to play up to 4 players.
No Firmware or RSX are needed to manage it as it not allow to play existing games w/o patchs.

That's a big plus in my book. Also that it doesn't require any soldering. My vote goes for this one. Sorry gerald, I trust you take no offence.

Quote from: mr_lou on 15:18, 30 June 15
That's a big plus in my book. Also that it doesn't require any soldering. My vote goes for this one. Sorry gerald, I trust you take no offence.

No offence taken  ;)
But who said that my solution required the user to do any soldering ?
All can be done externally on a Mother4X board.

Quote from: gerald on 17:15, 30 June 15
No offence taken  ;)
But who said that my solution required the user to do any soldering ?
All can be done externally on a Mother4X board.

Don't remember who it was. But the reason was that you were seemingly using a pin on the expansion port that is not connected on the plus machines. So owners of plus machines would need to do a simple soldering there.
I can't find anything about "Mother4X" board. Is it the same as MX4 (which is now called PlayCity)? Is everyone using Playcity nowadays?
I can't keep up with all the new hardware.  :)

Quote from: gerald on 17:15, 30 June 15
But who said that my solution required the user to do any soldering ?

I assumed it did because it sounded like an internal modification. Sorry about that.

The MotherMX4 is a board with slots on it that you can plug the other cards into.

All of the cards ToTO makes, plus other newer ones, use the appropiate connectors so you can plug them in easily. Stack them all together.

Almost like toast in a toast rack.

I see....

Well, I would really prefer a much simpler solution. Something as simple as the C64 owners have. A simply 2-player adapter on the expansion port.
Shouldn't require a MX4 or PlayCity or 512kb of ram. Should work on a plain CPC464, so we can play 64kb 4-player games from tape without any upgrades.

Quote from: mr_lou on 10:05, 30 June 15
I don't see how.
Existing games will still use the existing port (splitable into 2 if you want).
The 2 additional ports will only be used for 4-player games, as far as I can see - just like the C64 adapter is used.

I think I missed that last line, I meant that putting all four joysticks directly onto Z80 ports, whilst having many advantages, would mean you had to keep fiddling around swapping joysticks to play existing one or two player games.

For a three/four player only option, I'd agree it's probably a better solution. Trying to behave like a keyboard would require rather a lot of additional logic to keep track of what the PPI is doing and that's probably not worth the effort.

Quote from: andycadley on 18:44, 30 June 15
I think I missed that last line, I meant that putting all four joysticks directly onto Z80 ports, whilst having many advantages, would mean you had to keep fiddling around swapping joysticks to play existing one or two player games.

For a three/four player only option, I'd agree it's probably a better solution. Trying to behave like a keyboard would require rather a lot of additional logic to keep track of what the PPI is doing and that's probably not worth the effort.

As far as I understood, two of the ports would be compatible with the existing two ports. Meaning you wouldn't have to fiddling around swapping joysticks.
Isn't that right @gerald (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=250), or did I misunderstand that?

Quote from: gerald on 11:34, 30 June 15
You will need either RSX or a FW patch to access the additional joystick, just because the FW does not know they exist.
The only advantages over TotO's solution are :
  - No additional IO space required, we use an existing IO address
  - Access is method is identical to keyboard and joysticks0/1. Only 2 more lines to scan

The big gain here (if doable!) is that existing games / programs can use it as long as they allow to define keys. And there are few games with 4-player mode which allow to define keys. So this idea would be good for sure.  :)

Quote from: gerald on 17:15, 30 June 15
No offence taken  ;)
But who said that my solution required the user to do any soldering ?
All can be done externally on a Mother4X board.

That's what I like to hear!  :)

Quote from: mr_lou on 17:41, 30 June 15
I see....

Well, I would really prefer a much simpler solution. Something as simple as the C64 owners have. A simply 2-player adapter on the expansion port.
Shouldn't require a MX4 or PlayCity or 512kb of ram. Should work on a plain CPC464, so we can play 64kb 4-player games from tape without any upgrades.

No, you don't see... Because all the MX4 boards can be plugged alone on the expansion port too.
The MotherX4 is a commodity to plug up to 4 boards at the same time. Not a requirement.  8)

Quote from: TFM on 19:06, 30 June 15
The big gain here (if doable!) is that existing games / programs can use it as long as they allow to define keys. And there are few games with 4-player mode which allow to define keys. So this idea would be good for sure.  :)

Sadly not without a patch, you have to scan the two additional keyboad line

Quote from: mr_lou on 18:57, 30 June 15
As far as I understood, two of the ports would be compatible with the existing two ports. Meaning you wouldn't have to fiddling around swapping joysticks.
Isn't that right @gerald (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=250), or did I misunderstand that?

Yes, in fact the extension itself will use the original joystick connector to get access to the keyboard matrix row.

Quote from: TotO on 20:19, 30 June 15
No, you don't see... Because all the MX4 boards can be plugged alone on the expansion port too.
The MotherX4 is a commodity to plug up to 4 boards at the same time. Not a requirement.  8)

By the way, do you have 4 spare IO on the playcity ?

Quote from: gerald on 20:29, 30 June 15
Sadly not without a patch, you have to scan the two additional keyboad line

Oh you think about adding 10 and 11. I thought you would use two additional out of 0-9, so that the new controllers actually map to the keyboard.

Quote from: TotO on 20:19, 30 June 15
No, you don't see... Because all the MX4 boards can be plugged alone on the expansion port too.
The MotherX4 is a commodity to plug up to 4 boards at the same time. Not a requirement.  8)

Oh, well in that case, it seems we'll all be happy.  :)

For spanish guys:
RetroManiac | Revista de videojuegos retro |Videogames Magazine | Indie | Games (http://retromaniacmagazine.blogspot.com.es/2015/07/diversion-raudales-con-multiplay.html)

Quote from: gerald on 20:29, 30 June 15By the way, do you have 4 spare IO on the playcity ?

Yes.  ;)

Quote from: TotO on 20:19, 30 June 15
No, you don't see... Because all the MX4 boards can be plugged alone on the expansion port too.

Hmm, looking at the photo you linked to, I don't see how that one plugs into the standard expansion port. Neither the old ones or the centronics ones.
I suppose that's because the MultiPlay prototype is not an MX4 board?

You should know that all CPC don't have the same expansion port. Some are Edge, others are Centronics.
The connector need a little ribbon cable to be plugged properly for everyone!  ;)

Quote from: TotO on 13:20, 01 July 15
You should know that all CPC don't have the same expansion port. Some are Edge, others are Centronics.
The connector need a little ribbon cable to be plugged properly for everyone!  ;)

Ok.
Well, let me know when I can order one, along with a ribbon cable for edge connector and a ribbon cable for centronics connector.  :)

@mr_lou (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=96): I have implemented the multiplay device within arnold wip.
If you want to support it from BASIC I'll get you a new build of the emulator in a day or two.


EDIT: If/when there are other solutions I can implement them too.

I think I can give CapriceRPI2 the Joy 3 and 4 option also.

Because GP2x version used an 8 dir joystick, I used a matrix to do the conversion. I'm recycling this for RPI. The advantage is that I just "ask" the matrix for what is pressed, but the matrix can be updated from different sources (Real Joystick or keyboard emulation)

And also the matrix can be checked from different sides, for keyboard scan and from some I/O port.

By default I will make the joy 3 and 4 scan keyboard but when I/O access is detected from the expansion port Joy 3 and 4, key scan will be deactivated for joysticks 3 4 to avoid keyboard clash.

Anyway, which I/O ports are used for expansion board??

Quote from: TFM on 21:56, 30 June 15

Oh you think about adding 10 and 11. I thought you would use two additional out of 0-9, so that the new controllers actually map to the keyboard.

Well, this is really something to be considered, as indeed we could use them if the game allow key remapping. We just need to avoid line with special keys like shift/ctrl/esc  ;D

Quote from: gerald on 20:28, 02 July 15
Well, this is really something to be considered, as indeed we could use them if the game allow key remapping. We just need to avoid line with special keys like shift/ctrl/esc  ;D

I think games would ignore other keyboard lines. I am sure they mostly read 0-9.
With patches, and some space to put the larger keyboard buffer they could read the extra lines.

If you do keep it within the existing keyboard matrix that would be better, potentially no game needs to be patched if they provide a keyboard redefine.

Quote from: gerald on 20:28, 02 July 15
Well, this is really something to be considered, as indeed we could use them if the game allow key remapping. We just need to avoid line with special keys like shift/ctrl/esc  ;D

Yes. Special keys wouldn't even be that big of a problem. Maybe Shift and Control are not so good as you told, but ESC is imho fine. I mean isn't DEL with Joystick 0 (line 9 from 0-9) and Joystick 1 is at line 6.


So for two more joysticks the lines 4 and 7 (contain only letters and numbers) could be used. :) :) :)

My apologies if this has been mentioned already, but:

Regardless of however the adapter is made, is it correctly observed that it won't be usable on the GX4000?

The expansion port ones yes, you should forgot, if you not rebuild the expansion por taking signals from Z80 and a few more from ASIC...

But you have 3 select lines from keyboard if you forget of the ASIC pins... Joy 1, Joy 2 and the pause key (It's maped to P key). At least you could rebuild a 3rd joyport  as keyboard derivative, and use the analog port for the 4th...

I think people would want the "standard" expansion that everyone else is using.

@Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225), @TotO (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=290), @gerald (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=250): How big a job would it be to mod a GX4000 to add the two extra joystick ports?
Which one would be easiest to add? TotO's version or gerald's version?

Quote from: KaosOverride on 00:58, 06 July 15
The expansion port ones yes, you should forgot, if you not rebuild the expansion por taking signals from Z80 and a few more from ASIC...

But you have 3 select lines from keyboard if you forget of the ASIC pins... Joy 1, Joy 2 and the pause key (It's maped to P key). At least you could rebuild a 3rd joyport  as keyboard derivative, and use the analog port for the 4th...

The analogue joystick port uses the fire buttons from the digital joystick port!
I will double check, but I don't think analogue fire buttons are triggered independent of joystick port.

Ok, if you want to have 4 player movement only, but if fire is needed then you have to choose a different way.

Oh yes, fires are common to digital ports. There is also both common 1 and 2 at the analog port...

Then a cheap but complicated way is to solder two wires to the ASIC and route to the Joyports pin 9 (Common 2 at classic CPC) then use two CPC joy splitters and have Joy 1 and 3 at port 1, and Joy 2 and 3 at port 2.

At GX4000 lines 4, 7 and 10 are used. 4 for P key (pause) 7 and 10 for Joy 2 and 1. The P key will collide with a direction bit, so my bet goes for lines 5 and 6, pure letters, no func keys. (Note: ASIC at service manual numerates 1-10, when many other docs numerate 0-9 the keyboard lines)

This is incompatible with Joys 3 and 4 at expansion port, but there is no expansion port at GX4000 :(

EDIT: The idea of Piotr's keyboard adapter can be a solution here for another keyboard based joystick adapter. It is placed at AY socket and takes few wires from Z80. No ASIC soldering.

I had a bit of a think about this problem and I may have a further possible solution that only needs access to the Joystick ports ie: would work on any CPC (including the GX4000) without any modification. It has some drawbacks, but then again all solutions up to now have certain drawbacks too. So here's the idea:

As those who know their CPC Hardware know, the COM line on the CPC joystick port (unlike other retro computers) is a pulsed signal and not a permanent GND. What if each of the COMs were multiplexed so that the first COM pulse was sent to Joy1 A and the second pulse sent to JOY1 B, the same for JOY2 A and JOY2 B. This would mean two things, the software would need to "calibrate" the sticks at the start to know which stick is which, but no new addresses would be needed, just the game needs to be patched (or written that way if it's a new game).
One obvious disadvantage is the joystick responsiveness is halved, but I think many games neither needed nor took advantage of the full joystick speed anyway.

Comments welcome.

Bryce.

So here's my comment:
That's a nice solution, but it lacks the part of "How to synchronize it". Of course I wouldn't be TFM if I wouldn't provide a solution[nb]instead of a religion, that's what other's do...[/nb]. So how to synchronize?
Use the spare signal! When Spare is "off" then Joy 1/2 (A) is used. And when Spare is "on" then the Joy 1/2 B is used. This way one still has fire 1 and 2.  ;)  Isn't that neat!  ;) :) :)

Yeah, that's easy to implement. Great idea.

Bryce.

Quote from: KaosOverride on 12:12, 06 July 15
EDIT: The idea of Piotr's keyboard adapter can be a solution here for another keyboard based joystick adapter. It is placed at AY socket and takes few wires from Z80. No ASIC soldering.

Yes, the few logic required to emulate the PPI can be piggy packed on the PPI, but where do we put the additional joystick port ?

Quote from: Bryce on 20:48, 06 July 15
I had a bit of a think about this problem and I may have a further possible solution that only needs access to the Joystick ports ie: would work on any CPC (including the GX4000) without any modification. It has some drawbacks, but then again all solutions up to now have certain drawbacks too. So here's the idea:

As those who know their CPC Hardware know, the COM line on the CPC joystick port (unlike other retro computers) is a pulsed signal and not a permanent GND. What if each of the COMs were multiplexed so that the first COM pulse was sent to Joy1 A and the second pulse sent to JOY1 B, the same for JOY2 A and JOY2 B. This would mean two things, the software would need to "calibrate" the sticks at the start to know which stick is which, but no new addresses would be needed, just the game needs to be patched (or written that way if it's a new game).
One obvious disadvantage is the joystick responsiveness is halved, but I think many games neither needed nor took advantage of the full joystick speed anyway.

If we manage to power the logic that select the joystick, this can be done.
The only way to get power is to harvest it from the row (pulled up). CMOS logic has to be used.
The sync can be simple as delay (RC based) : when the line goes low, you can access one joystick, and after a properly defined time, the second.

Quote from: TFM on 20:54, 06 July 15
So here's my comment:
Use the spare signal! When Spare is "off" then Joy 1/2 (A) is used. And when Spare is "on" then the Joy 1/2 B is used. This way one still has fire 1 and 2.  ;)  Isn't that neat!  ;) :) :)

You mean that exact spare signal that is not wired on the Plus range ?

Quote from: gerald on 21:13, 06 July 15
You mean that exact spare signal that is not wired on the Plus range ?

Yes exactly that! The signal that every user can add to his/her Plus/GX with a simple piece of wire.

Quote from: TFM on 21:19, 06 July 15
Yes exactly that! The signal that every user can add to his/her Plus/GX with a simple piece of wire.

to a 0.5mm pitch IC in the case of a GX4000

Quote from: gerald on 21:29, 06 July 15
to a 0.5mm pitch IC in the case of a GX4000

Doh! Is the spare not connected on the GX4000?

What do you think of the rest of the idea?

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 21:39, 06 July 15
Doh! Is the spare not connected on the GX4000?

It is not connected on the 6128/464plus either, but the keyboard connector provides an easy connection point

Quote from: Bryce on 21:39, 06 July 15

What do you think of the rest of the idea?

Doable, but tricky because of the power consideration.

We can also have a sync mechanism that assume that the joystick is scanned every frame.
- each time the line selection goes low, we toggle the joystick selection
- When the selection line is not low, we reset the toggle after a timeout (rc based)

So, if we scan the joysticks every frame (in fact it could be faster) we are sure we always start with the same joystick.
deselect/reselect the same line in a short time (faster than the timeout) and you get the other joystick.

Quote from: gerald on 21:29, 06 July 15
to a 0.5mm pitch IC in the case of a GX4000

So what? Even I could do it! If somebody is afraid of doing it please send my your hardware and I will do that for you free of cost.

Quote from: gerald on 22:22, 06 July 15
We can also have a sync mechanism that assume that the joystick is scanned every frame.
- each time the line selection goes low, we toggle the joystick selection
- When the selection line is not low, we reset the toggle after a timeout (rc based)

So, if we scan the joysticks every frame (in fact it could be faster) we are sure we always start with the same joystick.
deselect/reselect the same line in a short time (faster than the timeout) and you get the other joystick.

How would you do that in hardware? You would need additional lines from EXP port, so an additional 50 pin connector.
And honestly a resolution of 25 mickeys is a nightmare!!!

Quote from: TFM on 21:19, 06 July 15
Yes exactly that! The signal that every user can add to his/her Plus/GX with a simple piece of wire.

I wish someone would explain how. Then I would [emoji34]

Quote from: gerald on 22:22, 06 July 15
We can also have a sync mechanism that assume that the joystick is scanned every frame.
- each time the line selection goes low, we toggle the joystick selection
- When the selection line is not low, we reset the toggle after a timeout (rc based)

So, if we scan the joysticks every frame (in fact it could be faster) we are sure we always start with the same joystick.
deselect/reselect the same line in a short time (faster than the timeout) and you get the other joystick.

Is that not too slow to be scanning?

Bryce.

Yes it is. And a nightmare in software.


The "Spare pin" solution keeps the regular two joystick compatible. But this solution makes all of them incompatible, since old games do not scan the CLK pin or what ever he likes to use.

A lot of tech stuff talk here that I have no clue about, but it's awesome that so many ideas are discussed.

I think it is ok that the adapter isn't compatible with existing games. That is not the case either for the Amiga 4-player adapter nor the C64 4-player adapter. Games has to be written (or patched) in order to use it. I don't see a problem with that.
(The CPC has very few 4-player games anyway).

My personal favourite is still TotO's idea.

   
• It's simple
• supported from BASIC without using RSX
• going to be compatible with other modern hardware
• does not require any soldering or modification on the majority of machines.

The only drawback I see, is that the GX4000 isn't supported, unless it gets some serious modification done to it. But that seems to be the case with other solutions too.

One could argue that BASIC support isn't important, since any 4-player game would require a speed BASIC doesn't offer anyway. I don't know. I certainly haven't had any luck obtaining the speed I want using BASIC myself.

I would prefer a solution that doesn't require me to unplug it in order to play existing 1-player games.

Quote from: Bryce on 22:32, 06 July 15
Is that not too slow to be scanning?

Bryce.

Not slower than the regular keyboard/joystick scan.
All you need is to select twice the line during the scan, with a unselected state in between (you can scan an other line during this time).
The only requirement is that the two selection of the line are closer that the reset timeout.

I've just re-read this entire thread.
I'm curious to hear more about gerald's idea.
Some quotes from gerald:

Quote from: gerald on 11:34, 30 June 15
The only advantages over TotO's solution are :
  - No additional IO space required, we use an existing IO address
  - Access is method is identical to keyboard and joysticks0/1. Only 2 more lines to scan

But who said that my solution required the user to do any soldering ?
All can be done externally on a Mother4X board.

The extension itself will use the original joystick connector to get access to the keyboard matrix row.

The only drawback I can see, is that it can't be used from BASIC, but if we admit that BASIC is too slow anyway....

Quote from: Carnivac on 13:20, 29 June 15
Oh cool.  Where can I get a splitter for 464/6128 with diodes?

@Carnivac (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=50), I bought this now.
Amstrad CPC 464 664 6128 Two 2 x Joystick Game Port Y Adapter Cable | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/111707890168)
Says it's with diodes.

Quote from: TFM on 22:35, 06 July 15
Yes it is. And a nightmare in software.


The "Spare pin" solution keeps the regular two joystick compatible. But this solution makes all of them incompatible, since old games do not scan the CLK pin or what ever he likes to use.

The minute you have to do a hardware mod, it becomes a very niche solution. Lots of people are either unable, or unwilling, to start modifying there machines. Especially with rarer hardware like a 6128+.

It would be easier, if you wanted to go down that route, to use Fire 2 for that purpose. It would limit 4 player titles to a single fire button, but 8-bit machines got away with single fire for years just fine.

Although I suspect that if you really wanted to, you'd be better off ditching the idea that a four player adapter needs to work with existing games and come up with something more like the serial communication used by SNES pads.

Quote from: mr_lou on 05:32, 07 July 15
My personal favourite is still TotO's idea.

   
• It's simple
• supported from BASIC without using RSX
• going to be compatible with other modern hardware
• does not require any soldering or modification on the majority of machines.

I may have missed something, but how exactly is ToTOs device supported from BASIC?

@Gerald: Ok, it just seemed slow. My fading memory from back when I did the AMX Mouse adapter was that the port was read every 300ms or something similar.

Bryce.

Bryce.

Quote from: mr_lou on 06:50, 07 July 15

@Carnivac (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=50), I bought this now.
Amstrad CPC 464 664 6128 Two 2 x Joystick Game Port Y Adapter Cable | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/111707890168)
Says it's with diodes.

Oh cool.  So this probably gives 2 joysticks without any problems?  Great!   Now I just need a human friend to play the games with.  :)

Quote from: Bryce on 08:17, 07 July 15
I may have missed something, but how exactly is ToTOs device supported from BASIC?

Like this:

PRINT "Joystick A: ";INP(&F990)
PRINT "Joystick B: ";INP(&F991)


Ah ok, I thought you were implying that the Joy command would work. Is there no similar method to read Geralds additional joysticks?

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 09:57, 07 July 15
Ah ok, I thought you were implying that the Joy command would work. Is there no similar method to read Geralds additional joysticks?

I asked that question earlier in this thread, and gerald replied that it requires RSX to read his version from BASIC.

The question is how important it is to be readable from BASIC.
I liked that idea at first, but I have to admit that (to me) BASIC will never be able to offer the speed I want for a 4-player game.
So maybe it's irrelevant whether or not it's readable from BASIC.
I dunno.

In any case, I would just really like a solution that doesn't mess with the first 2 joysticks JOY(0) and JOY(1) so that existing games can be played using joysticks plugged into those two ports. The adapter should add 2 additional joystick ports, which requires special programming (e.g. INP(&F990)) to be read.

I think TotO's idea resembles what's seen on other platforms. But I don't feel I know enough about gerald's idea yet.

But I'd REALLY like to have an adapter in my hands soon, so my mates and me can play some 4-player games when we meet up in August.  :)

The hardware might possibly be ready in August (although unlikely), but the games have to be written too! That's a very tight schedule!

4-way adapters on other systems are tied to a particular address because they usually use the user port which already has its address decoding done for it. If the CPC had this type of user port the hardware could be as simple as theirs.

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 11:49, 07 July 15
The hardware might possibly be ready in August (although unlikely), but the games have to be written too! That's a very tight schedule!

Well I am mostly interested in us being able to play my own game. ;-)
But Megablasters and Quadraster sounds very interesting too of course.

Quote from: Bryce on 11:49, 07 July 15
4-way adapters on other systems are tied to a particular address because they usually use the user port which already has its address decoding done for it. If the CPC had this type of user port the hardware could be as simple as theirs.

I don't know about those things. To me, TotO's Multiplay resembles the C64 4-player adapter. They're both plugged in the back and offers 2 more joystick ports. Yay!
Is TotO's Multiplay a whole lot more complicated that the C64 4-player adapter?

Anyway, TotO is letting me either borrow or buy his prototype now. So hopefully we'll be playing some Amstrad CPC 4-player games in August now. :-) It'll be lots of fun, I can tell. :-D

I gave mr.lou an updated arnold wip with multiplay emulated. Of course, without the actual hardware I can't say if the value of bit 6 and 7 are returned correctly.
I have followed all the info from ToTO and tested it in basic and against a test program and it works good.

Quote from: gerald on 22:22, 06 July 15
It is not connected on the 6128/464plus either, but the keyboard connector provides an easy connection point
Doable, but tricky because of the power consideration.

We can also have a sync mechanism that assume that the joystick is scanned every frame.
- each time the line selection goes low, we toggle the joystick selection
- When the selection line is not low, we reset the toggle after a timeout (rc based)

So, if we scan the joysticks every frame (in fact it could be faster) we are sure we always start with the same joystick.
deselect/reselect the same line in a short time (faster than the timeout) and you get the other joystick.

Interesting. So you are relying on specific patterns or transitions on COM within a specific interval to select the joystick?

I have a question:

On CPC it is possible to set AY port A to output. In effect you can then output data through the joystick port.

I am assuming to do this you need to select line 9 (or 6; but preferably 9 because that will not clash with keys and potential keyboard membrane "fun"), set AY port to output and write values.

Now, on Plus, you will probably not be able to write to the directions because of the diodes?

So that leaves 2 fire bits open, they are not protected with diodes.
But the fire buttons are shared between 2 digital joysticks, 1 analogue joystick and the light gun.

(I just noticed the light gun has 2 fire buttons!!).

Could it help using fire buttons to select joysticks in some way?

The only other thing I can suggest, but I think you already suggested this?

Is to use the com signals as a bit pattern?

You would need to work on transitions perhaps, or some kind of specific timing.

Perhaps a transition on com0/com1 defines joystick?

so:

0,1 = reset (reads joy 0)
0,1,0 = joy 0
0,1,1,0 = joy 1 (now reads joy 1)

first 0 is line 9 selected,
then deselect line 9, device is reset (starts it's internal clock) and we can read joy 0 at any time com is 0.
Now compatible with normal games??

If we leave line selected, we now select joy 1.

We need one device on each joystick port and we have 2 joysticks.

The advantage here is that analogue and light gun should also work?

I am trying to think of a way where just com can be used.

I should probably mention that gerald is leaving / has left for vacation today, so he may not reply this thread for a while.
(But he might check from his phone of course because he miss us.  :) )

The problem with using the second fire input is that some games might want to use Fire 2 within the game.

@mr_lou (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=96): The only real difference between the C64 solution and ToTOs solution is that the C64 has done the address decoding inside the C64, so the external hardware is minimal. On the CPC the address decoding needs to be done on the expansion.

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 14:52, 07 July 15@mr_lou (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=96): The only real difference between the C64 solution and ToTOs solution is that the C64 has done the address decoding inside the C64, so the external hardware is minimal. On the CPC the address decoding needs to be done on the expansion.

Ok.
Looking at the price, there isn't much of a difference either.
The C64 4-player adapter (http://www.protovision-online.de/shop/product_info.php?products_id=34&language=en) costs 13.90 euro.
TotO said his Multiplay will be about 10 euro too.

So I gotta ask - and I don't mean this in any rude way: Why aren't we just going with TotO's version?
It sounds to me like TotO's Multiplay is a great solution, fast, simple, lots of advantages as far as I can see, most importantly: 2 existing ports aren't affected and no soldering is required. Usable from BASIC is an extra plus.

I admit I don't know enough about gerald's idea, and I don't understand 90% of all the tech talk going on about other ideas either, but as far as I can see a lot of the other ideas require soldering or affects the two existing ports in some way? Meaning IF these solutions are used, you'd have to connect/disconnect the adapter every time you wanted to play different games. (I.e. switching from a 4-player game to a 1-player game). Or have I misunderstood something?

I don't know if gerald's solution requires the adaptor to be removed to play games that haven't been updated for it.

My understanding was that it shouldn't. I also believe that it requires special coding for the extra joysticks, same as ToTO's does, but instead of ToTO's i/o ports, you read them using modified joystick reading code.

I also think Gerald's device connects to the joystick port first, you then connect your joysticks to that, and the device controls the communication between computer/console and joysticks.

WoW! Lot's of posts, lot's of false- / mis-information!


I quit here, because I don't have the time to repeat thing 10000times. Please read the CPCWiki about keyboard-scanning (this _IS_ joystick-scanning!). Read about Mickeys and compatibility.


Then decide for the Bryce Solution with the "Spare" pin as selector to have a well solution. TotO's idea with two new ports is as good as. My 3 Pfennige here and I'm off...  ;)

What I have understand from gerald's propose is an expansion card which mimics part of the PPI, like Piotr's PC keyboard adapter, and tries to detect which of the 10 selection lines is de Z80 trying to use. Then if one of the lines is from the joystick 1, 2 or the keyboard lines assigned to 3 and 4, it returns the value throught a cable to the real joystick port. I understand that there is no need to unplug for old games because joystick 1 and 2 is replicated correctly.

This gives us a card with 4 joystick IN ports, one OUT joystick port and the expansion port. This gives compatibility with keyboard scaning routines, because joysticks 3 and 4 acts as 2, keys from keyboard. Also I think this will be compatible with a GX-4000 using the same keyboard lines for joy 3 and 4, as COM2 signal at both joystick ports and the use of 2 CPC classic joystick splitters.

On the other hand ToTo's card offers 2 joy ports at 2 I/O address. We have to use new joystick routines for 3 and 4, but because PPI->PSG is not used, the routines are faster, hardware is more simple.

Both devices have pros and cons.  >:(

Quote from: TFM on 18:26, 07 July 15
Then decide for the Bryce Solution with the "Spare" pin as selector to have a well solution. TotO's idea with two new ports is as good as. My 3 Pfennige here and I'm off...  ;)

Neither of which will ever be viable on the GX4000, which is kind of the entire point. It would be nice to have a solution that works via the standard ports, without internal hardware modifications, so that it was as usable as possible.

I trust the hardware gurus to decide which version to make. But I'll definitely vote against using that Spare because it requires soldering. And no, I won't send me hardware to you so you can solder for me.  :P

I've just re-read the entire thread again, and tried to sum up advantages and disadvantages for each idea so far.

Spot anything missing? Comment. Any idea on price for the two other ideas? Know of any other advantages / disadvantages?

 

---

TotO's Multiplay

Advantages	Disadvantages
Fast No soldering / modding required Usable from BASIC using INP() No clash with other joysticks nor keyboard Price will only be about 10 euro	Not supported on the GX4000 due to lack of expansion port. Requires purchase of proper Y-splitter with diodes for standard CPC's, in order for them not to clash with each other.

---

Gerald's idea

Advantages	Disadvantages
No soldering / modding required No clash with other joysticks	Not usable from BASIC (unless patching firmware). Can clash with keyboard Requires connection on both the joystick-port and expansion port. Doesn't work on the GX4000 due to lack of expansion port.

Note: I'm not entirely sure about the "no soldering required". Gerald says he'll use "the non decoded lines 10 to 11" in the joystick port. Are we sure those two lines are connected on all machines?
He also said: "getting additional joystick state only require extending the current keyboard scan to 2 more lines.". Is this completely problem-free to do?

---

Bryce's idea

Advantages	Disadvantages
Works on all CPCs including the GX4000 No soldering required	Slightly complex circuit, maybe slow? Maybe expensive?

---

Quote from: andycadley on 19:16, 07 July 15
Neither of which will ever be viable on the GX4000, which is kind of the entire point. It would be nice to have a solution that works via the standard ports, without internal hardware modifications, so that it was as usable as possible.

Ok, and now? There IS not game for the GX4000 supporting 4 joysticks and there will never be (imho).

Quote from: TFM on 19:35, 07 July 15
Ok, and now? There IS not game for the GX4000 supporting 4 joysticks and there will never be (imho).

If there is a 4-player adapter that'll work on the GX4000, there will of course be 4-player games for the GX4000, now that a ton of games are being converted to C4CPC.

Quote from: mr_lou on 19:38, 07 July 15
If there is a 4-player adapter that'll work on the GX4000, there will of course be 4-player games for the GX4000, now that a ton of games are being converted to C4CPC.

Conversions don't count.

.

Quote from: phi2x on 19:43, 07 July 15
Bryce's idea: Only interest is compatibility with the GX4000, which doesn't have an expansion port that is needed for Gerald's and TotO's solutions. But it requires soldering. That isn't needed for Gerald's and TotO's solutions.

Gerald's idea: You have an hardware that needs to be connected BOTH to the expansion port AND the joystick port. Also, all the 4 joysticks need to be connected through that hardware. That's cumbersome and ugly.

TotO's multiplay: The 2 first joystick connections work as usual, with no clunky hardware in the middle. And joysticks 3 & 4 are shown as proper expansions of the system, as it was intented by Amstrad when they put an expansion port on the CPC.

Thanks! I've updated the table on previous page.
I did suspect the part about needing connecting on both expansion port and joystick port, but it wasn't clarified anywhere.

Quote from: phi2x on 19:43, 07 July 15
Bryce's idea: Only interest is compatibility with the GX4000, which doesn't have an expansion port that is needed for Gerald's and TotO's solutions. But it requires soldering. That isn't needed for Gerald's and TotO's solutions.

Soldering only for the GX4000 (and Plus-easy!)

Quote from: phi2x on 19:43, 07 July 15TotO's multiplay: The 2 first joystick connections work as usual, with no clunky hardware in the middle. And joysticks 3 & 4 are shown as proper expansions of the system, as it was intented by Amstrad when they put an expansion port on the CPC.

So no use with GX4000.

My version doesn't require any soldering on any computer including the GX4000 if you do the detecting/multiplexing like Gerald suggested. The spare signal is then no longer needed and it works directly from the Joystick ports. The joystick scanning routines are probably a little bit more complicated though. Regarding plugging/unplugging for 2 player games: A simple switch on the device could disable the multiplexing and return the ports to the standard 2 stick config without having to remove the device.

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 20:32, 07 July 15
My version doesn't require any soldering on any computer including the GX4000 if you do the detecting/multiplexing like Gerald suggested. The spare signal is then no longer needed and it works directly from the Joystick ports. The joystick scanning routines are probably a little bit more complicated though. Regarding plugging/unplugging for 2 player games: A simple switch on the device could disable the multiplexing and return the ports to the standard 2 stick config without having to remove the device.

Sounds good, but also sounds difficult and expensive?

How much effort does it take to build your adapter vs building TotO's Multiplay into a GX4000?

Table updated.

.

I am just practically BEGGING that we agree on one of them, so that we won't end up with a bunch of 4-player games that requires different adapters....

If Bryce's idea is really possible, then that's obviously the best choice.
But is it really doable? And what will the price be? Any issues regarding speed? (I noticed people saying that TotO's Multiplay is fast).

Agreed! One solution as new "standard" would be great. TotO's idea is not bad either, and it's already running. Bryce's idea is neat and needs the less effort imho. But I don't have real hardware in hands of course.


Now aside of talking... TotO's solution seems to be existent as prototype. Is somebody willing to construct the other solutions? Or will they remain ideas?

Quote from: mr_lou on 20:42, 07 July 15
Sounds good, but also sounds difficult and expensive?

How much effort does it take to build your adapter vs building TotO's Multiplay into a GX4000?

Table updated.

It would be difficult to build inside the computer / GX4000, it really needs to be outside. As far as price is concerned it would probably cost a little more than ToTOs version as it has to have all six connectors and a PCB big enough to mount them all on, other than that it's just a few TTL chips (or a CPLD if the designer decides to go that way). Either way, no matter what we decide on, I can design it, but I really don't have the time to build this at the moment.

Bryce.

Myself, I would love to have the opportunity to have both Playcity and a 4-Player adaptater bundled together...

This is a great example of why (when I was designing some of my devices) I didn't discuss the design online until it was more or less finished :D I made it as I thought best and sold them with the "Take it or leave it" attitude. If you try to keep everyone happy, you end up with a device that nobody wants.

Bryce.

Quote from: remax on 20:59, 07 July 15
Myself, I would love to have the opportunity to have both Playcity and a 4-Player adaptater bundled together...

Do you talk about a new PlayCity board?

At some point in this topic, toto talked about the eventuality of a merged playcity and 4 joysticks board

Envoyé de mon Nexus 5 en utilisant Tapatalk

Well, imho, it would be nice to have an solution for "old" PlayCity cards too. I won't get a new one just for two more joysticks. If there is the chance of "adding" it to the board it would be nice of course.

As I understood he uses a MultiPlay board, not a PlayCity, see first thread of him.


Ok, he told he wants to make an upgrade for PlayCity, if doable.

When we end up with only two solutions, then this is totally fine with me. But not 3 or 4 hopefully.  :)

Quote from: TotO on 09:38, 30 June 15
My first idea was to offer four (A, B, C, D) new inputs using ports: F990, F991, F992, F993
Because it is accurate like arcade machine and easy to build and use.
Now, I thing that 2 (A, B) controllers is enough and allow to fit on a MX4 board.

IMHO it would be nice to have all four of them. I remember being playing Tron with 6 players all together on a CPC meeting couple times. This was lots of fun!  :)

One massive, but oft overlooked, advantage of an adapter that connects via the joystick ports only is that it's almost impossible to kill your CPC with it. Having used a Spectrum for years, by far and away the biggest killer of machines was joystick expansions that got pulled out of the expansion socket during rather more "vigorous" game play. It's really easy to fry a machine by pulling out an expansion device with the power on.

The one time we had to get my 6128 repaired was because of the joystick port - I picked up the joystick one day and a static discharge went straight through to the AY-3-8912 and fried it.  :(

This is awesome!
Ok, so we have TotO's Multiplay and Bryce's version as the final runners I think.
@Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225), you gotta come up with a name for it now.  :)

Looks like we might end up having both of them on the market.

It could be awesome if Bryce's idea ended up being "a 4-player adapter that works on ALL CPC's including the GX4000", and TotO's multiplay ended up being "a 6-player adapter that works on all CPC's (except the GX4000)".
That way we wouldn't have "2 devices that basically does the same thing except one of them don't work on the GX4000", but rather 2 different devices that offers different advantages.
Once Bryce's idea is designed and available, it would be the logical choice to get.
But by offering 6 joysticks, TotO's idea would still be interesting too.

"Bryce's 4-player adapter"
"TotO's 6-player adapter"

I love 'em both already.  :)

@Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225), I think it's good to discuss online. Now we know that you'll eventually design this 4-player device. This gives TotO some time to think about making his adapter a 6-player one instead (which I hope he will). It would be annoying for him if he'd created a batch of Multiplays and then learning that you came with another 4-player adapter that people would rather have.
Not everything needs to be discussed online of course. Just the things that would be best that people agree upon, like new standards that a lot of coders are going to use.

@TotO (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=290), what do you think? How about turning the Multiplay into that 6-player adapter you originally thought about doing, since Bryce will be making a 4-player adapter that works on the GX4000?

Ok, I'll see if I can find time to do something. So who's going to write some test software to prove the concept?

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 08:22, 08 July 15
Ok, I'll see if I can find time to do something. So who's going to write some test software to prove the concept?

Well someone ought to create a driver of some sort. As far as I understand, your adapter requires some semi-complex code. So I'm thinking there ought to be some assembler code available that you just insert in your own code.

@ronaldo (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1227), you should add a cpct_scanBryceAdapter() function in CPCTelera.  :)
And also a cpct_scanMultiplay() of course.

@arnoldemu (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=122), obviously another addition to Arnold Emulator too.

@Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225), so what are you gonna call it?  :)

How about Joystick² ? MultiStick? JoyPlex?

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 08:58, 08 July 15
How about Joystick² ? MultiStick? JoyPlex?

1 vote for JoyPlex.  :)

Quote from: mr_lou on 09:03, 08 July 15
1 vote for JoyPlex.  :)

Cos' it sounds like a sex toy? :D

Bryce.

Lol.

Quote from: TFM on 20:24, 07 July 15
Soldering only for the GX4000 (and Plus-easy!)


So no use with GX4000.

I am sure you are competent at soldering. My solder skills are ok.
I am sure there are many more that can't do soldering!

Quote from: Bryce on 08:22, 08 July 15
Ok, I'll see if I can find time to do something. So who's going to write some test software to prove the concept?

Bryce.

I will do it.
:)

Quote from: Bryce on 09:04, 08 July 15
Cos' it sounds like a sex toy? :D

No comment.

.

Quote from: phi2x on 11:26, 08 July 15
I understand your rationale. But I think it would be a shame to have 2 hardware expansions that supports 4-player games in a different way.

It's a dilemma. We "just" want the GX4000 to be supported, right?
If it was easy to add Multiplay support in a GX4000, then it would be a matter of GX4000 owners sending their GX4000 to their closest hardware guru for it to be "upgraded".
This would imho be better than everyone needing to solder anything on their machines, and also better than having 2 different adapters yes.
But I suspect it's a lot of work to add Multiplay to the GX4000?
I already asked Bryce about this. He said it couldn't be installed internally. So it would have to reside outside the device somehow.

Adding Multiplay support to a GX4000 - or developing the JoyPlex.... whichever is the easiest, that's where my vote goes.
One hardware guru creating 30 JoyPlex devices, or one hardware guru modding 30 GX4000 devices.... I don't see much of a difference workwise.

But it's also about which job is more fun of course.

Quote from: arnoldemu on 09:27, 08 July 15
I am sure you are competent at soldering. My solder skills are ok.
I am sure there are many more that can't do soldering!

Yours are better than mine for sure!  ;)

But I'm curious for the outcome of your poll tbh.

I will be back at home in 3 days.
I have to finish some boards (X-MEM, ...), but I will take a look about the MultiPlay "future".
Axelay made a great game example with QuadRaster and Arnoldemu support it into his emulator.

Can you post a DSK of QuadRaster, to allow to understand what it is? [nb]Else I have tron in mind.  :) [/nb]

Quote from: TFM on 21:09, 08 July 15
Can you post a DSK of QuadRaster, to allow to understand what it is? [nb]Else I have tron in mind.  :) [/nb]

I've also been asking about QuadRaster.
Seems it's just not available for the public yet.
But I heard it was a 4-player "lightcycle game". So it's probably not completely wrong to have Tron in mind.

Quote from: mr_lou on 05:29, 09 July 15
I've also been asking about QuadRaster.
Seems it's just not available for the public yet.
But I heard it was a 4-player "lightcycle game". So it's probably not completely wrong to have Tron in mind.

Yes it's a 4 player lightcycle game, overscan, mode 1. Made by Axelay.
It uses keyboard, 1 of the cpc's standard joysticks and both multiplay joysticks.

lightcycle = tron like game.

Quote from: mr_lou on 05:29, 09 July 15
I've also been asking about QuadRaster.
Seems it's just not available for the public yet.
But I heard it was a 4-player "lightcycle game". So it's probably not completely wrong to have Tron in mind.

My intention was to make it available alongside the Multiplay release.  It's not much use without it, it's 4 player only, but if you're getting hold of a Multiplay prototype, then I'm happy to supply it to you for your event.

Quote from: TFM on 16:32, 08 July 15
Yours are better than mine for sure!  ;)

But I'm curious for the outcome of your poll tbh.

I am not so sure ;)

I am interested too. :)

Quote from: Axelay on 13:42, 09 July 15
My intention was to make it available alongside the Multiplay release.  It's not much use without it, it's 4 player only, but if you're getting hold of a Multiplay prototype, then I'm happy to supply it to you for your event.

That would be awesome!
Yes, TotO has been kind enough to send me his Multiplay prototype. I expect he'll be mailing it within a few days.
I'll PM you my e-mail address.  :)
Thanks a lot!

Quote from: Axelay on 13:42, 09 July 15

My intention was to make it available alongside the Multiplay release.  It's not much use without it, it's 4 player only, but if you're getting hold of a Multiplay prototype, then I'm happy to supply it to you for your event.

Well, imho it shoud be easy to patch it for joystick 0 and 1 and and two times keyboard. So 4 players for everybody.  :)  Could you post a DSK?

Quote from: TFM on 17:14, 09 July 15
Well, imho it shoud be easy to patch it for joystick 0 and 1 and and two times keyboard. So 4 players for everybody.  :)  Could you post a DSK?

Doesn't the keyboard clash way too easily?

Quote from: mr_lou on 18:37, 09 July 15
Doesn't the keyboard clash way too easily?

Not when using the right keys. Ages ago I made a nice program to check that visually:
(go to second 27)
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF0SbEJEO0A#)

You can download the program here:
(it's called Show Keys)
http://futureos.cpc-live.com/files/FutureOS_Utilities.zip (http://futureos.cpc-live.com/files/FutureOS_Utilities.zip)

Quote from: TFM on 18:54, 09 July 15
Not when using the right keys.

In other words the programmer will decide the keys in advance.

Well, 4 joysticks is far more fun anyway.
And it's about time the CPC got one of these 4-player adapters that other systems has had for years.

Quote from: mr_lou on 19:41, 09 July 15
In other words the programmer will decide the keys in advance.

That's not a prerequisite. I mean regarding light cycle usually very player presses one key at a time, so there shouldn't be too much hassle.
Of course it's nice if the game offers some pre-set key combinations. But that doesn't exclude the possibility to change keys too.


4-8 joysticks would be cool of course. But until we all have them there should be other solutions for existing hardware.  :)

With 4 controllers, you don't need to define keys... Just play.  ;D
But... Who really play on the same screen with up to 8 guys?
Should be better to think about network over 4 players, if games exist.

Quote from: TotO on 08:12, 10 July 15But... Who really play on the same screen with up to 8 guys?

Don't know about 8 players, but Dynablaster on the Amiga allows for 5 players.
I think the Multiplay could just as well offer 4 ports, so that we could have 6-player games.
I understand you wish to save IO ports? Is this because of other expansions on the MX4?

Quote from: mr_lou on 09:15, 10 July 15Don't know about 8 players, but Dynablaster on the Amiga allows for 5 players. I think the Multiplay could just as well offer 4 ports, so that we could have 6-player games.
I understand you wish to save IO ports? Is this because of other expansions on the MX4?

The CPC allow more I/O ports than other 8bit computers. It is not a problem to use 2, 4 or 16 of them only for the controllers.
I already can handle 4 players using 2 Multiplay boards... But, it is not the goal. (so few CPC games are 2 players...)

Quote from: TotO on 10:12, 10 July 15But, it is not the goal. (so few CPC games are 2 players...)

I believe, generally you shouldn't base your hardware projects on the availability of software.

Create the hardware, then the software will come.

We saw that with the C4CPC. For months and months everyone was like: "No reason to create a multicartridge for the Plus range because there are no games!!!".
gerald (bless him) made one anyway, and BOOM we have a huge library of converted games. It's awesome!

You create a 4-player adapter that makes 6-player games possible and I bet developers and other enthusiasts will start creating/porting/patching games.
Then people who previously said: "Booh, the CPC doesn't even have a 4-player adapter" will now instead go "Damn! The CPC has a 6-player adapter! WTF?!?!"
If the CPC has enough CPU power to handle it, then why not?

But I get what you're saying. I can't imagine a lot of 6-player games either. A 6-player Lightcycle game of course. And maybe a 6-player Megablaster game.
The game I'm working on could also be adapted to 6 players, but all the sprites would have to be smaller then.

These games will of course only be played at gatherings. That's where they belong. My mates and I meet up twice a year. I encourage everyone to see if you can setup such a gathering with your own mates and mates' mates.  :) It's lot's of fun!  :)

Quote from: mr_lou on 12:29, 10 July 15Create the hardware, then the software will come.

Since the begin, it is possible to play to CPC games with 2 joysticks and KB at the same times... Games using this features are less than 1%.
It is not because the hardware exist that is used, but when it is not optional.

Quote from: TotO on 12:54, 10 July 15
Since the begin, it is possible to play to CPC games with 2 joysticks and KB at the same times... Games using this features are less than 1%.
It is not because the hardware exist that is used, but when it is not optional.

Good point.
I don't know how big a percent of the games on other platforms are 2-player games. It could be interesting to see if it's the same.

But I do believe that one reason that 2-player games are rare on the CPC is because people back then didn't think about 2 joysticks actually being possible, because there was only one plug on the computers. And the people who knew that 2 joysticks were possible would experience clashes - leaving them with the perception that it indeed really wasn't possible to do properly.

Apart from that, there's also a difference between back then and now.

Anyway, I'm not telling you how to do your Multiplay device. I was just suggesting that you made it into a 4-port device instead of a 2-port device. Especially if you say it's not important to save IO ports.
Just a suggestion. No need to discuss it if you don't want to.  :)

I'm sure I'll enjoy a 2-port device very much.  :)

Quote from: TotO on 08:12, 10 July 15
Should be better to think about network over 4 players, if games exist.

Sorry for getting offtopic here... Can your Mini-Booster be used for a local network of a few (3-6) CPCs? I'm not familiar with the (SPI?) interface of it. Sorry if this is a stupid question.

The MiniBooster itself is able to support that. Now, depending how you are connected (BT, Eth...), you can or not.
The best is probably to have a server and some clients for more than two linked computers.

Well, want to keep it all strictly CPC, no PC as servers. Thought more about an few CPCs connected to each other. IMHO there is no reason to go into internet, if we can have a better network for the CPC.


Sorry for derailing thread.  :-X

Why thinking about PC as server, when you should use a CPC?  :-\

Quote from: TotO on 14:09, 12 July 15
Why thinking about PC as server, when you should use a CPC?  :-\

Exactly!  :)

Did we ever agree on what was the best solution here?
Did the hardware gurus agree?

I find myself leaning towards TotO's multiplay because it feel lean. Easy to plug in, easy to support without complex code.
@TotO (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=290), how's it going with development of a batch?  :)

Of course, I just got myself a GX4000 now, which has neither keyboard nor expansion port.
@Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225), have you thought any further on your idea?

No :) Too many other things to do at the moment.

Bryce.

@mr_lou (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=96): As I said, I have to test some extra features before any batch.

Quote from: TotO on 07:47, 22 July 15@mr_lou (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=96): As I said, I have to test some extra features before any batch.

But that was like 2 weeks ago.  ;)
How many extra features are we talking about?  :)

I can see that my sense of humour isn't reaching that far down south.

I'm in no rush for a batch TotO. I was just kidding around.
I'm happy to be able to borrow the prototype. Lemme know when it's on its way. We're ready to test our 4-player game on real hardware.

Last 2 weeks have passed like 2 days...  :(
I have done nothing for the CPC since the ReSeT.

Quote from: TotO on 14:16, 22 July 15
Last 2 weeks have passed like 2 days...  :(
I have done nothing for the CPC since the ReSeT.

Take your time TotO, good work needs its time. And up to now all your expansions are strictly awesome!  :)

TotOs, MultiPlay is now supported by FutureOS, next update will be out in few weeks anyway.  :)


EDIT: Can you please check which value you get on your real CPC when using:
? inp(&ff90)
If the value is 255, then never mind, it's all ok. But if you get another number, then please report here. This is of interest for everybody developing games with support of the MultiPlay.  :)

Trying to give CapriceRPI the MultiPlay support, I think I have made it OK, but just to be sure...

Ports are &F990 and &F991

From lower to higher bit, the functions are:
Up, Down, Left, Right, Fire1, Fire2, ¿Fire3?, free

"Space Rivals" seems to work ok, with 4 USB pads I can manage the 4 spaceships, Up or Fire 2 to push up the space ship, left/right to shoot to the direction, and Fire 1 to activate shields.

If I'm wrong, please tell me

Great! :)

The MultiPlay only use the 6 LSB for each controller in the order you said.
So, a program have to mask (BYTE AND &3F) to read it properly.

For information, the MultiPlay will be available in January. (the time to finish the pending orders and build them)

Am I on that list of pending orders list?

I will build 20 boards first, then I will put it on my website to not make peoples waiting for it.
I don't forget you... ;)

Quote from: TotO on 16:07, 11 December 15
Great! :)

The MultiPlay only use the 6 LSB for each controller in the order you said.
So, a program have to mask (BYTE AND &3F) to read it properly.

Then CapriceRPI is ready with release 1.2 at github!!  :laugh:

Hope to have some time tomorrow morning to make the binary builds available at MEGA

About emulation, a mirror address exist at $F890, $F891.

1111 100- 1001 0000x
F    8/9  9    0/1

Quote from: TotO on 00:05, 12 December 15
About emulation, a mirror address exist at $F890, $F891.

Code Select Expand


1111 100- 1001 0000x
F    8/9  9    0/1

Awesome!!! This way it actually can be detected!!!  :) :) :)

Some news...

I have built and dispatched few of the original Multiplay boards for tests to peoples making games.
Some of you have already seen it working at the ReSeT event in 2015 with MegaBlaster and a Tron-like game, both made by Axelay!!!  :o

Since, I have made some extra changes with the help of gerald.  8)
The MultiPlay will allow not only to use two extra controllers, but proportional Amiga mice too!  ;D
I hope that will open new games ideas and PlayCity combo usage too!

Here the (close to) final design.

[attachimg=1]

I will let you know when all will be ready, next month.

Once again, a great piece of hardware !!  :o
Congrats !!

I'll be having a couple of these too please. ;)

Thanks.  8)
I hope that it will be possible to support the 3rd fire and mouse button too.

Quote from: TotO on 09:37, 27 January 16MegaBlaster and a Tron-like game, both made by Axelay!!!

TRON-Like ... WAT?! DSK PLZ! :D

Axelay has not released QuadRaster actually.  :P
The ReSeT preview was a four simultaneous players game only.

Quote from: TotO on 21:43, 27 January 16
Thanks.  8)
I hope that it will be possible to support the 3rd fire and mouse button too.

That would be AWESOME!  :) :) :)

Very nice board TotO. Why don't you narrow the board to the width on the 50way connector, there's loads of space. Or are you sticking to some MX4 standard size?

Bryce.

Quote from: TotO on 09:37, 27 January 16
The MultiPlay will allow not only to use two extra controllers, but proportional Amiga mice too!  ;D

That's the bigger news imo. Amiga mice are still aplenty, still being made and sold. There are also a lot of DB9-PS/2 Amiga adapters to use modern mice. Being able to use such a standard mouse on the CPC should really ease stuff like using SymBOS, and promote making new software using it.

Which prompts the question: is it not possible to use an Amiga mouse on the CPC joystick port, either directly with a clever software or through an adapter of some sort?

can't wait  :)

Quote from: khaz on 02:26, 28 January 16
Which prompts the question: is it not possible to use an Amiga mouse on the CPC joystick port, either directly with a clever software or through an adapter of some sort?

Not with software, but with a small adapter it wouldn't be difficult to do.

Bryce.

Quote from: BryceVery nice board TotO. Why don't you narrow the board to the width on the 50way connector, there's loads of space. Or are you sticking to some MX4 standard size?

Thank you.  :)
The actual prototype have connectors inside de PCB to virtually reduce the width. But, the rooting is more clean now. (only 2 via actually)
Keeping the same PCB size for all expansions is more clear for the user and clean on our desk.

Quote from: khazThat's the bigger news imo. Amiga mice are still aplenty, still being made and sold. There are also a lot of DB9-PS/2 Amiga adapters to use modern mice. Being able to use such a standard mouse on the CPC should really ease stuff like using SymBOS, and promote making new software using it.

Exactly. It is the idea.  8)

Quote from: khazWhich prompts the question: is it not possible to use an Amiga mouse on the CPC joystick port, either directly with a clever software or through an adapter of some sort?

Sure it is. (As for ST mouse), but that means each software took some times to read and count moves at each frame to keep a minimum of accuraty.

Quote from: khaz on 02:26, 28 January 16
Which prompts the question: is it not possible to use an Amiga mouse on the CPC joystick port, either directly with a clever software or through an adapter of some sort?

Of course! And they work very well, which can be seen with the great G-Paint and FutureOS. You just need a little adapter. See here:
Atari-ST mouse adapter - CPCWiki (http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Atari-ST_mouse_adapter)

+5V is the one thing missing from the CPC controller port it seems. Was it shown that the Atari / Amiga mice really need it? Otherwise I would think you don't even need an adapter, you only need to tell the software how to interpret each pin (which is up, down, etc.) I don't have much knowledge in hardware controllers, but it's my assumption that a button is detected by grounding the relevant pin, and a scrolling mouse would be no different.

TFM, you are quite responsive regarding the inclusion of new technologies and standards into your OS, I wonder why no one else included support for such an adapter, or even "mass-produced" one (or am I missing it?), when the stupidly simple schematics were published in 1988?

So the amiga mouse uses a quadrature encoding (like bus mice, acorn etc). But the CPC mouse is normally just up/down/left/right?

So how does this work without software support? Because this encoding is quite different (you can be going up and down at the same time for one thing)...

And how is it any better at giving proportional control? Speed measurement is still reliant on measuring the frequency and/or period of the signals.

Or does the normal CPC mouse just, e.g. set the Up pin to one when you are moving upwards and leave it there until you stop moving upwards like a joystick (i.e. instead of toggling at a rate dependent on movement speed)?

And doesn't this mean we could make an alternative firmware for Bryce's mouse adapter that supports proportional movement?

@khaz (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1619), those simple schematic adapters not allow make the ST or Amiga mice working without external 5V PSU.
By the way, that require from each software to read many times per frame the X/Y mouse status to move enough faster.
So... Understand that is not a magical solution. :)

Oh I'm sure it isn't, otherwise it would have been used ;)

I'm curious about how your board deals with it now :)

Quote from: khaz on 19:09, 29 January 16
+5V is the one thing missing from the CPC controller port it seems. Was it shown that the Atari / Amiga mice really need it? Otherwise I would think you don't even need an adapter, you only need to tell the software how to interpret each pin (which is up, down, etc.) I don't have much knowledge in hardware controllers, but it's my assumption that a button is detected by grounding the relevant pin, and a scrolling mouse would be no different.

TFM, you are quite responsive regarding the inclusion of new technologies and standards into your OS, I wonder why no one else included support for such an adapter, or even "mass-produced" one (or am I missing it?), when the stupidly simple schematics were published in 1988?

Well, TotO is the expert... here only what I know for sure.
Yes, the mouse do need the 5 Volt, one can use a battery of use the 5 Volt of the CPC.
The button (Fire 3) is grounded to show the software that the mouse adapter is there. Actually there is noe need to ground it. But it allows to quick check if the mouse adapter is there or not.


The G-Paint is really great, same level as OCP art studio and with the proportional mouse ONE CAN REALLY PAINT.  :) :) :)


Thank you!  :)

Quote from: TotO on 21:20, 29 January 16
@khaz (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1619), those simple schematic adapters not allow make the ST or Amiga mice working without external 5V PSU.
By the way, that require from each software to read many times per frame the X/Y mouse status to move enough faster.
So... Understand that is not a magical solution. :)

I like its magic a lot.  :)  Using the interrupt you get 300 Mickeys and that's enough, because the mouse provides dX and dY values. As long as the user is not making a mouse race over the table it works like a charm.

Well, I do agree, can't understand either why only few software is using it, maybe because it was published in a German Magazine and it didn't become international quick enough. Later on there was the SF2 with its PS/2 mouse adapter. Of course a mouse adapter for 2-3 Euros is a good thing. but usually people doing software only support 'off the shelf' stuff, means cursor keys and digital joystick. What a pity.

Quote from: TotO on 21:20, 29 January 16
By the way, that require from each software to read many times per frame the X/Y mouse status to move enough faster.

So you do need to specific software support (that looks at the frequency/period of the signals and figures out direction?)

If somebody wants to support the mouse, I can provide a driver, which works very well when called every interrupt.  :)

BTW, these (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361279315310) optical mice can be modified to give a direct quadrature (amiga/acorn etc proportional) output. I've got a couple for my acorns. You just need some wire, the right connector and a soldering iron.

Exactly. The Internal IC allow to support USB/PS2 and Quadrature configurations. :)

Quote from: khaz on 19:09, 29 January 16
+5V is the one thing missing from the CPC controller port it seems. Was it shown that the Atari / Amiga mice really need it? Otherwise I would think you don't even need an adapter, you only need to tell the software how to interpret each pin (which is up, down, etc.) I don't have much knowledge in hardware controllers, but it's my assumption that a button is detected by grounding the relevant pin, and a scrolling mouse would be no different.

The Atari and Amiga mice (along with Acorn mice and a small number of mice for other machines), plus the mice for most of the Amstrad CPC and ZX Spectrum mouse interfaces are all what are usually called "bus" mice.
All good quality mice require a low voltage power supply (normally 5V DC), as the IR LEDs and the active circuitry need the power in order to detect the rotation of the wheels (ball types), or to shine a LED onto the surface and a detector chip to workout the movement (ball less types).

Most bus mice have active logic outputs on the four direction movement outputs (XA, XB, YA, YB). The two (or three) buttons are normally simple microswitches (or similar).

Because the CPC joystick connector does not have a +5V supply, or a 0V (ground) pin, an independent power supply or battery is required, along with the diodes. So an adaptor is always required if using the CPC joystick port.

The CPC joystick connector uses a switched select signal for the common (pin 8 ). Joysticks don't care, as they are just switches.

Mark

Quote from: khaz on 19:09, 29 January 16
+5V is the one thing missing from the CPC controller port it seems. Was it shown that the Atari / Amiga mice really need it? Otherwise I would think you don't even need an adapter, you only need to tell the software how to interpret each pin (which is up, down, etc.) I don't have much knowledge in hardware controllers, but it's my assumption that a button is detected by grounding the relevant pin, and a scrolling mouse would be no different.

TFM, you are quite responsive regarding the inclusion of new technologies and standards into your OS, I wonder why no one else included support for such an adapter, or even "mass-produced" one (or am I missing it?), when the stupidly simple schematics were published in 1988?

Actually the CPC joystick port doesn't contain a ground pin either :(

Bryce.

Topic split: MultiPlay MX4 Expansion (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/multiplay-mx4-expansion/)