4-player adapter? // MultiPlay MX4 Expansion

[gerald]

So, Toto's solution is compatible with existing games. Megablasters was made in 1994, so the adapter must have been invented 11 years ago already?

I strongly think than Megablasters has been patched 

[Bryce]

Considering that Toto's solution is compatible with existing games, and gerald's idea requires RSX commands or FW patching, I have to lean towards Toto's board.

I'm pretty sure ToTOs device also needs an RSX or Firmware changes to work with any game.

Bryce.

[TotO]

The gerald's way to do is clever. It is more CPC original design in mind.
Mine use the port range defined into the cpcwiki I/O page to be friendly with my ACME boards.

About MegaBlasters and QuadRaster, they are Axelay's games.
The MultiPlay not replace the original controls. It add 2 new controls.

[arnoldemu]

The facts as I understand them:

- Both methods require support from coders or games patched. Neither will work immediately with no changes
- ToTO's is easier for a user to install, provided they have an MX4. geralds requires some soldering and modification which some/most users will not be able to do.
- ToTO's method uses 2 i/o ports. geralds doesn't need any more ports.
- ToTO's method is faster to read compared to geralds method.
- Both give extra joystick inputs.
- ToTo's has no clash with keyboard. I think I read that gerald's is also immune to clash??

EDIT: Originally I put my opinion, but mr_lou is correct. I have modified my post.

[mr_lou]

I'm pretty sure ToTOs device also needs an RSX or Firmware changes to work with any game.

Is that true @TotO?

My opinion:

- Both methods require support from coders or games patched. Neither will work immediately with no changes
- ToTO's is easier for a user to install, provided they have an MX4. geralds requires some soldering and modification which some/most users will not be able to do.
- ToTO's method uses 2 i/o ports. geralds doesn't need any more ports.
- ToTO's method is faster to read compared to geralds method.
- Both give extra joystick inputs.
- ToTo's has no clash with keyboard. I think I read that gerald's is also immune to clash??

Looks more like a list of facts rather than your opinion. 

But anyway, as soon as it requires soldering and/or modification to the CPC, I'm going to prefer the other idea.

But I also have this perception, that adding more joystick inputs is not cheating....  but adding a MX4 / PlayCity is a bit cheating....
So if the adapter comes bundles with PlayCity, then I'm sure developers will start using the other things that board offers, ultimately resulting in a new series of "PlayCity games" - rather than "4-player games".
At the moment, I don't much like that idea.... but that's probably just me.

[TotO]

The MultiPlay board add 2 extra controllers connetors to play up to 4 players.
No Firmware or RSX are needed to manage it as it not allow to play existing games w/o patchs.

About the PlayCity, many CPC users own it. If developpers want to create a 4 players game using it (or using X-MEM or anything else), you are not able to prevent developpers to take fun with that.

[mr_lou]

The MultiPlay board add 2 extra controllers connetors to play up to 4 players.
No Firmware or RSX are needed to manage it as it not allow to play existing games w/o patchs.

That's a big plus in my book. Also that it doesn't require any soldering. My vote goes for this one. Sorry gerald, I trust you take no offence.

[gerald]

That's a big plus in my book. Also that it doesn't require any soldering. My vote goes for this one. Sorry gerald, I trust you take no offence.

No offence taken 
But who said that my solution required the user to do any soldering ?
All can be done externally on a Mother4X board.

[mr_lou]

No offence taken 
But who said that my solution required the user to do any soldering ?
All can be done externally on a Mother4X board.

Don't remember who it was. But the reason was that you were seemingly using a pin on the expansion port that is not connected on the plus machines. So owners of plus machines would need to do a simple soldering there.
I can't find anything about "Mother4X" board. Is it the same as MX4 (which is now called PlayCity)? Is everyone using Playcity nowadays?
I can't keep up with all the new hardware. 

[arnoldemu]

But who said that my solution required the user to do any soldering ?

I assumed it did because it sounded like an internal modification. Sorry about that.

[arnoldemu]

The MotherMX4 is a board with slots on it that you can plug the other cards into.

All of the cards ToTO makes, plus other newer ones, use the appropiate connectors so you can plug them in easily. Stack them all together.

Almost like toast in a toast rack.

[mr_lou]

I see....

Well, I would really prefer a much simpler solution. Something as simple as the C64 owners have. A simply 2-player adapter on the expansion port.
Shouldn't require a MX4 or PlayCity or 512kb of ram. Should work on a plain CPC464, so we can play 64kb 4-player games from tape without any upgrades.

[andycadley]

I don't see how.
Existing games will still use the existing port (splitable into 2 if you want).
The 2 additional ports will only be used for 4-player games, as far as I can see - just like the C64 adapter is used.

I think I missed that last line, I meant that putting all four joysticks directly onto Z80 ports, whilst having many advantages, would mean you had to keep fiddling around swapping joysticks to play existing one or two player games.

For a three/four player only option, I'd agree it's probably a better solution. Trying to behave like a keyboard would require rather a lot of additional logic to keep track of what the PPI is doing and that's probably not worth the effort.

[mr_lou]

I think I missed that last line, I meant that putting all four joysticks directly onto Z80 ports, whilst having many advantages, would mean you had to keep fiddling around swapping joysticks to play existing one or two player games.

For a three/four player only option, I'd agree it's probably a better solution. Trying to behave like a keyboard would require rather a lot of additional logic to keep track of what the PPI is doing and that's probably not worth the effort.

As far as I understood, two of the ports would be compatible with the existing two ports. Meaning you wouldn't have to fiddling around swapping joysticks.
Isn't that right @gerald, or did I misunderstand that?

[TFM]

You will need either RSX or a FW patch to access the additional joystick, just because the FW does not know they exist.
The only advantages over TotO's solution are :
  - No additional IO space required, we use an existing IO address
  - Access is method is identical to keyboard and joysticks0/1. Only 2 more lines to scan

The big gain here (if doable!) is that existing games / programs can use it as long as they allow to define keys. And there are few games with 4-player mode which allow to define keys. So this idea would be good for sure. 

[TFM]

No offence taken 
But who said that my solution required the user to do any soldering ?
All can be done externally on a Mother4X board.

That's what I like to hear! 

[TotO]

I see....

Well, I would really prefer a much simpler solution. Something as simple as the C64 owners have. A simply 2-player adapter on the expansion port.
Shouldn't require a MX4 or PlayCity or 512kb of ram. Should work on a plain CPC464, so we can play 64kb 4-player games from tape without any upgrades.

No, you don't see... Because all the MX4 boards can be plugged alone on the expansion port too.
The MotherX4 is a commodity to plug up to 4 boards at the same time. Not a requirement. 

[gerald]

The big gain here (if doable!) is that existing games / programs can use it as long as they allow to define keys. And there are few games with 4-player mode which allow to define keys. So this idea would be good for sure. 

Sadly not without a patch, you have to scan the two additional keyboad line

As far as I understood, two of the ports would be compatible with the existing two ports. Meaning you wouldn't have to fiddling around swapping joysticks.
Isn't that right @gerald, or did I misunderstand that?

Yes, in fact the extension itself will use the original joystick connector to get access to the keyboard matrix row.

No, you don't see... Because all the MX4 boards can be plugged alone on the expansion port too.
The MotherX4 is a commodity to plug up to 4 boards at the same time. Not a requirement. 

By the way, do you have 4 spare IO on the playcity ?

[TFM]

Sadly not without a patch, you have to scan the two additional keyboad line

Oh you think about adding 10 and 11. I thought you would use two additional out of 0-9, so that the new controllers actually map to the keyboard.

[mr_lou]

No, you don't see... Because all the MX4 boards can be plugged alone on the expansion port too.
The MotherX4 is a commodity to plug up to 4 boards at the same time. Not a requirement. 

Oh, well in that case, it seems we'll all be happy. 

[TotO]

For spanish guys:
RetroManiac | Revista de videojuegos retro |Videogames Magazine | Indie | Games

By the way, do you have 4 spare IO on the playcity ?

Yes. 

[mr_lou]

No, you don't see... Because all the MX4 boards can be plugged alone on the expansion port too.

Hmm, looking at the photo you linked to, I don't see how that one plugs into the standard expansion port. Neither the old ones or the centronics ones.
I suppose that's because the MultiPlay prototype is not an MX4 board?

[TotO]

You should know that all CPC don't have the same expansion port. Some are Edge, others are Centronics.
The connector need a little ribbon cable to be plugged properly for everyone! 

[mr_lou]

You should know that all CPC don't have the same expansion port. Some are Edge, others are Centronics.
The connector need a little ribbon cable to be plugged properly for everyone! 

Ok.
Well, let me know when I can order one, along with a ribbon cable for edge connector and a ribbon cable for centronics connector. 

[arnoldemu]

@mr_lou: I have implemented the multiplay device within arnold wip.
If you want to support it from BASIC I'll get you a new build of the emulator in a day or two.


EDIT: If/when there are other solutions I can implement them too.