Hey everyone.
I hope to get a 6128 sometimes (anyone have a spare one please please please? ;D ) and I was hoping to be able to hook up one of my 5.25" drives. I understand somewhat the technique in getting a 3.5" one to work, but I'd like to make use of the 5 inch drive and discs that I have laying around.
I know it's possible as I'm sure many of you would have used a 5.25" drive instead of the built in 3" drive for cost reasons back in the day.
The other day I finally found a colour monitor (CTM 664) so I no longer need to use either the greenscreen or the MP1 modulator on a B&W telly :laugh:
Thanks alot.
There are several 6128's on ebay uk right now, starting at 99p, earlier today I missed a 6128plus because I did not bid high enough :(
Quote from: steve on 00:28, 16 June 11
There are several 6128's on ebay uk right now, starting at 99p, earlier today I missed a 6128plus because I did not bid high enough :(
I actually just won a 6128 today ^^ Bought a random game from the same person also. I need to test the drive right!?! ::)
I'm not so keen on the Plus's.
The other day I could have had a gold mine if I knew about it a couple of days earlier..
A couple of 464's, a 6128, external discs drives, external datacorder, games on cassettes and discs aswel as plain discs and cassettes, manuals, magazines, monitors, printers. All for £40 :'( :'( :'( :'(
Yeah, it's always the ones you miss that are absolute bargains, if you are bidding on something it always goes for £1 more than your bid >:(
Still, I ought to have enough CPC's and pluses by now, I really should delete ebay from my favourites list.
Back to the topic title, I should imagine that getting a 5.25" drive to work is just the same as for a 3.5" ?
Also, I have a few 5.25" discs that my grandpa used to use on his Amstrad PCW. The data in them I am led to believe is controlled by a programme called 'Money Manager', he was quite adament of that.
Is there a Money Manager for the CPC, and if so is it compatable with the PCW version?
I've managed to open them in plain old DOS with the edit programme and the data is retrievable. Some of the info goes back to 1987.. I'd love to read it in its true form. ;)
You can add a 8" disk drive too. So you have 2.75" in spare.
Ralf
Money Manager was available for DOS too and it supposedly used the same file format. It might be easier to get your hands on the DOS version and read them using that?
We had an 8" Drive at university, the discs were just silly big and about as reliable as a secondhand Lada. The Prof used it to explain how disc drives worked, because it was big (and slow) enough to see all the mechanisms work in detail.
Bryce.
Quote from: Blurredman on 01:15, 16 June 11
Back to the topic title, I should imagine that getting a 5.25" drive to work is just the same as for a 3.5" ?
Many years ago I had a 5.25" disc drive attached to my CPC. But this drive was a double density 80 track drive.
Is your drive one of these or a high density PC drive?
(I also have a high density PC 5.25" floppy drive, but I never tried to connect it to my cpc).
My 5.25" drive was very easy to connect up. I needed a cable with two edge connectors, one for the cpc6128 and one for the 5.25" drive.
Then set the jumpers on the back of the drive to 1. The drive had it's own power, and when all was connected and switched on it worked good.
To get the most out of it, I had ramdos on a amsdos formatted 5.25" disc. I could boot this, then I could insert my ramdos discs and read them.
(ramdos is the ram version of romdos). (Parados can also read these discs).
The only thing I noticed was that the 5.25" drive took longer to be ready than a 3.5" drive, so it sometimes reported "disc missing", but a retry sorted it out and it worked fine.
Quote from: Blurredman on 01:15, 16 June 11
Also, I have a few 5.25" discs that my grandpa used to use on his Amstrad PCW. The data in them I am led to believe is controlled by a programme called 'Money Manager', he was quite adament of that.
Is there a Money Manager for the CPC, and if so is it compatable with the PCW version?
5.25" on a PCW? I know they had 3" internal drives, and some had 3.5" drives.
Perhaps you are thinking of the PC version, perhaps PC1512 compatible?
There *may* be a version for CPC, perhaps a CPM version that also works on PCW.. I don't know.
Quote from: Blurredman on 01:15, 16 June 11
I've managed to open them in plain old DOS with the edit programme and the data is retrievable. Some of the info goes back to 1987.. I'd love to read it in its true form. ;)
It definitely points to the 5.25" disc being a DOS disc, and for an Amstrad PC.
You would not be able to open the file so easy if it were PCW format, because it uses a different format compared to PC.
*if* you wanted to get it onto your CPC, I would recommend the cpc program doscopy. This can read pc formatted discs, then hope that your disc is a 360K PC disc and not 1.2MB (because the cpc can't read the 1.2MB because it's high density).
The CPC6128 I brought second-hand has had all kinds of modifications done to it to accommodate 2 x 5.25" Disk Drives. To get both drives to work, a custom made CP/M Plus was made, one of the drives from memory I think is Single Sided 40 track :-\ , though the second of the two drives is 40 tracks double sided-double density and is the one I can use in AMSDOS. A few years ago I found a CP/M program on one of the FTP archives called DU51 which allowed me to format the 5.25" Disks in a format that AMSDOS recognised, when you come to save programs to it the programs appear larger in the Directory structure due to the way the Sectors are mapped on the disk, though to my knowledge you get the full 360k out of the disk. Another handly program I could use with that Disk Drive was a Shareware program called DOSCopy which let you simply grab files on a 360k PC formatted DOS disk for use on the Amstrad! :)
Thanks for the replies everyone. How friendly :P
The only drive I have laying around is 1.2mb ones. I imagine that it simply won't read half the disc being that it cannot reach the extra 40 sectors? I could put a punch on the other side so I could turn 5.25" discs upside down I suppose to get some space back..
As far as I am aware, the only Amstrad my grandfather had was a PCW, and he's not the type to have more than one computer at a time. I tried a DOS version of money manager and as far as I can see through the extensive interface is that you cannot import data.
And although this is a side note, has anyone connected a 3" drive to a PC?? Just interested. :D
Steve, maybe you got outbid by me? :blank:
**EDIT**
I have just had a talk with my father, and he has explained all! As you say, the discs are PC format.
He used to use money manager on the PCW. And because PCW was becoming out of date, he needed to transfer the data to PC. He did this by making a serial connection between both the PCW and the PC, in which he could save data directly to the PC. The discs I do not think come into it until later when I presume they are just backup discs.
Quote from: Blurredman on 11:31, 16 June 11
Thanks for the replies everyone. How friendly :P
you're welcome.
Quote from: Blurredman on 11:31, 16 June 11
The only drive I have laying around is 1.2mb ones. I imagine that it simply won't read half the disc being that it cannot reach the extra 40 sectors? I could put a punch on the other side so I could turn 5.25" discs upside down I suppose to get some space back..
The 1.2MB drive *may* work on the CPC, but CPC will only use it as a 360K style drive because it can't do high density.
Depending on the floppy discs you have, and how the drive handles them, it may automatically switch into high density if you insert a high density disc, I don't remember - this may just be 3.5" drives that do that.
The drive will probably be 80 track to get that capacity.
With AMSDOS:
* You're limited to 40 tracks useable on the disc unless you use another dos.
* You're limited to 1 side.
* If you format it to an AMSDOS default format you'll get 178k *per side*.
So you could punch a hole so you can use two sides and flip it over. I used to do that and it worked with my drive. If you use another DOS you don't need to do this and you will get much more useable capacity on each disc.
Quote from: Blurredman on 11:31, 16 June 11
And although this is a side note, has anyone connected a 3" drive to a PC?? Just interested. :D
Yes I have connected a 3" TEAC drive. It is different to the CPC drives, it's better built and has an edge connector, so I connected it up just like I would do if I installed a 5.25" inside a PC.
Connecting up the Amstrad style 3" drives is possible, but has some interesting things to check before you do it ;)
5.25" disks didn't have a notch to signify the density, they were all identical, although the magnetic coating on high density disks was supposedly superior to the older disks.
Bryce.
Are you shure? A 3" from TEAC? I only know them from Hitachi! Why didn't you take a 8" drive?
Ralf
Quote from: Ralf on 14:01, 16 June 11
Are you shure? A 3" from TEAC? I only know them from Hitachi! Why didn't you take a 8" drive?
Ralf
Hello Ralf,
why don't you register?
Then we don't need to approve all your postings... ;)
Cheers,
M.
Some Tatung Einstein computers used a 3" inch drive made by TEAC (with an edge connector at the back). So yes, TEAC 3" drives exist, although I would guess the are pretty rare these days, the Einstein wasn't exactly a huge seller.
Bryce.
The good thing about these Einstein TEAC 3" drives is that they are completely mechanical (as modern 3.5" drives) and don't have a rubber belt that melts over time.
Unsure if I correctly recall this properly, though didn't an 1.44Mb 3.5" Disk Drive have an additional Pin to accomodate the extra 40 sectors of a disk when compared to a 720k Disk Drive? Or perhaps that was the Abba Switch on a 720k drive to switch sides on the disk. :o I thought perhaps if you wanted to make a 5.25" Disk Drive Double Sided, Double Density there's a pin specific for the extra Density?
Pin 2 of the Shugart standard is used to let the system know if the Drive is high or low density capable. As far as I know, on 3.5" drives, the drive checked the disc capacity (notch) and set this pin correctly. On 5.25" drives, the pin was permanently set by the drive depending on what the drive could manage, not the media inserted.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 10:25, 17 June 11
Pin 2 of the Shugart standard is used to let the system know if the Drive is high or low density capable. As far as I know, on 3.5" drives, the drive checked the disc capacity (notch) and set this pin correctly. On 5.25" drives, the pin was permanently set by the drive depending on what the drive could manage, not the media inserted.
Bryce.
Unfortunately I don't have any 5.25" High Density disks on hand, only 360k ones and these disks have been pictured differently on the internet as drawings, from what I can see it appears that 1.2Mb Disks and 360k ones are identical. From memory I think it was the Index Hole near the center of the disk which was the big deal cause it acted as a marker for where the disk could work out the layout of the disk from that spot, which always has to be in that same spot.
So I'm guessing that if those High Density drives had such a pin, trying to disable it wouldn't work, cause the drive itself has some other components in it which differ from a regular DSDD Disk Drive. Unlike a 3.5" HD Drive which can be fooled into acting like a DD Drive by using a 720k Disk, or simply covering the small gap on the label end on a HD disk!
The 5.25" disks didn't have a notch to tell them apart, and I don't think the drive could tell them apart, other than after they were formated.
Bryce.
Connecting a 3" drive to a PC (http://www.fvempel.nl/3pc.html). Quite easy, actually, strange we don't have a guide in the wiki!
Okay, so after rejigling the ribbon cable, i hooked it up and readied out pin 33 and 34.
But nothing happens, when i am in amsdos, both drive just seem to be spinning..
The drive is a Mitsubishi MF504C-318UG.
Once I disconnect it, all is well. Did I hear that TEAC drives have greater compatability? I do have a TEAC drive connected to my main PC as it happens. The TEAC drives are the nicest to look at.
Both drives are 1.2mb capable, I know that 180kb is the maximum AMSDOS can read (unless I get parados) but I formatted a disc using 40 track format, and on the PC, it could read this newly AMSDOS formatted drive (that it, itself formatted).
Is it drive incompatability or something else?
Quote from: Blurredman on 18:16, 22 June 11
Okay, so after rejigling the ribbon cable, i hooked it up and readied out pin 33 and 34.
But nothing happens, when i am in amsdos, both drive just seem to be spinning..
The drive is a Mitsubishi MF504C-318UG.
Once I disconnect it, all is well. Did I hear that TEAC drives have greater compatability? I do have a TEAC drive connected to my main PC as it happens. The TEAC drives are the nicest to look at.
Both drives are 1.2mb capable, I know that 180kb is the maximum AMSDOS can read (unless I get parados) but I formatted a disc using 40 track format, and on the PC, it could read this newly AMSDOS formatted drive (that it, itself formatted).
Is it drive incompatability or something else?
is the connector the correct way around? This can cause a problem but normally you see the drive light permanently on.
Is the 5.25 configured as drive 1 (assuming that it has jumpers)?
if the cable has a twist, try jumpering it as drive 0.
If there are jumpers, set RDY, I think there are some others too but I forget what they are called.
The disc light is always on yes. This indicates cable being incorrect but following websites it seems like this is the correct way. But I will switch it around.
Luckily, I think there is a ready jumper on the drive and yes it is configured as disc drive 1.
**EDIT**
Yep, that was certainly it. I can't think why I didn't realise earlier, esspecially since i've had enough practice with floppy drives over the years!
I can read a disc in drive a, but trying to switch to drive b just brings up a no disc message but the mechanisms are doing stuff so it's definately trying to look for a disc. Maybe I didn't format it properly using CPCDiscXP? These discs are high density however, and so are the drives so I do question the compatability.
I've had another look too for ready jumper and the only jumper which could possibly mean that is 'RD'. Unfortunately the only documentation at all on the internet is for an external tape media and that states RD means Ready.
I have noticed that the B drive light blips on when the cpc is turned on, but does not illuminate when i am trying to access a disc.
When I short out (by way of the cable) the ready signal the message returned trying to access B is 'Bad Command' whereas without this modification it says basically "Disc not inserted, R,I,C?".
I've tried putting a cp/m image onto one of the disc so I think the format is correct.
Please tell us about all the jumpers there are on the drive.
You say the mechanism does stuff?
So the motor should turn on after you type cat, if it's failing to read the disc it will seek back and forth to retry.
does it activate when you try and use drive A? it should not.
What should happen:
1. you type |B
2. drive will attempt to be accessed, motor will go on, disc will spin.
3. if the drive is ready, and head is not at track 0, it should do a seek else it will display "drive not ready".
4. it will try to read if seek succeeded.
5. you should then see the catalog displayed.
Things to note: you say it's a 1.2MB drive. You used CPCDiscXP to transfer a file?
Ideally the drive inside the pc should be re-configured in the bios to 360K so the PC uses it as double density.
Perhaps a jumper on the drive may also need to be set, but I'm not so sure about that - I think the drive can read both densities.
Please tell us more, I think you are getting close. I have never damaged a cpc6128 by connecting the drive cable upside down ;)
Hmm, it doesn't specifically seek. When I say spin, the drive automatically spins when you push in a disc.
I will try the 360k trick on the PC.
As for your question on format,
You can format a 1.2mb disc as 360k and the drive will still read that 360k floppy. Ideally, if I had a 360kb drive i could confirm if formatting a 1.2mb floppy as 360kb can still be read on a 360kb system. I have messed around with what jumpers I would think may mean something but to no avail.
**EDIT**
No luck. Still think the drive itself is the problem.
My dad said that his TEAC 5.25" Drive had to be modified by way of soldering (or unsoldering as the case may be) something in order for it to be just double density and not high density.
As you ask though, here are the jumpers:
DD - No jumper
HR - No
IL - No
IS - No
MM - Jumper present
MS - No jumper
IR - No
IU - No
RI - Jumper present
RD - Jumper present
DC - Jumper present
SR - No jumper
There is also another strip of pins with:
SG - No jumper
SB - Jumper present
SS (or 55) - No jumper
ND - No jumper.
Aswel as the drive selection strip, there are two sections, TPA with 2 pins labled 1 and 3 - no jumper, and TPB with 3 pins no labled.
**EDIT 2**
I just formatted a 1.2mb disc as 360kb, and made the drive 360 in the BIOS. An attempt to then read the floppy was unsuccessful. I was greeted with a message along the lines of "B: is not functioning because of an I/O error". Maybe because the drive is meant to be DS/HD I don't know.
**UPDATE**
I have successfully switched and seeked with the drive!
I took away the jumper over the 'RD' lable, and manually shorted out the ready using a paperclip in a pin connection between the drive and the computer.
It does fail to read the disc however.
**EDIT** I put the jumper back on RD and tested it and it seeks fine.. For some reason it now works, even though I have tried this combination a million times!
I also tested what TPA and TPB does.
It seems that TPA seeks half the disc, TPB seeks the disc when it it mounted.
Okay, so I gather this drive does not have the ability to read and write in 40 track unless I find out what some of those Jumper lables mean
Quote from: Blurredman on 22:23, 22 June 11
DD - No jumper
HR - No
IL - No
IS - No
MM - Jumper present
MS - No jumper
IR - No
IU - No
RI - Jumper present
RD - Jumper present
DC - Jumper present
SR - No jumper
There is also another strip of pins with:
SG - No jumper
SB - Jumper present
SS (or 55) - No jumper
ND - No jumper.
Aswel as the drive selection strip, there are two sections, TPA with 2 pins labled 1 and 3 - no jumper, and TPB with 3 pins no labled.
Don't give up.
DS0-DS3 are normally which drive it is set for (can also be D0-D3)
RD is probably "ready".
DC is "disc change" I think. Not needed on cpc.
according to teac drives, may be the same for this "IU" is "In use" - not used on cpc.
not sure about the others yet.
Quote from: Blurredman on 22:23, 22 June 11
Hmm, it doesn't specifically seek. When I say spin, the drive automatically spins when you push in a disc.
that is normal for a lot of 5.25" drives and I don't think it's related to the cpc at all.
As soon as you insert a disc, it spins up then stops.
Quote from: arnoldemu on 09:28, 23 June 11
that is normal for a lot of 5.25" drives and I don't think it's related to the cpc at all.
As soon as you insert a disc, it spins up then stops.
I've updated my experience :P
TP usually stands for "test point", I think I'd leave those jumpers as they were originally.
Bryce.
Quote from: Blurredman on 23:38, 22 June 11
It does fail to read the disc however.
If you have cpm and a working 3" drive.
Boot into cpm
run disckit2 or disckit3 (depends on which cpm you started up - disckit2 for cpm 2.2, diskkit3 for cpm+).
Use the formatting program here.
When the drive seems to respond, do a format to data format.
if that works, go back to basic:
10 PRINT"HELLO"
20 GOTO 10
|b
SAVE "TEST"
then reset computer, check it loads from the drive.
if all that works then it works cpc side..
next thing after that is to solve the cpcdiskxp writing problem (leave it until last).
Origionally I intended to burn images of the utilities discs onto the 5.25" discs.
I have ordered some origional system discs (both of them) and i'll be testing. In the mean time, I'll be making my tape wire.
I've decided to swap the drive I was using with the one that was in my computer.
Because the drive I was using the connector is odd in that it is upside down then usual. I had to make a twist before the B connector to make B, A and then the twist already there makes drive A, B. It makes alot more sense as it reduces double backing. I would have had no twist but 3.5" drives don't really have jumpers these days..
I hear that the TEAC FD-55 have double density compatability by unsoldering a resistor (R19?- it's on this forum!)
Well, I've done that, and made it 300rpm but to no avail.
The TEAC also had an inbuilt ready signal so that's easier!
I have noticed that the TEAC light is always on, but it is similar characteristics of the 3" drive as it is only illuminated and doesn't flash when trying to read (unlike the Mitsubishi drive) and the 3" drive light becomes brighter instead.
Yay, I've got it to work!
Where the two jumper areas:
___
|. . | LG
-----
|. . | I
-----
(I think) anyway, the jumpers have to be set at 90 degree angle to that which is documented. I found that setting pin 2 of LG and pin 2 of I forces 300rpm, I do not know what putting a jumper on pin1 of LG and pin1 of I does. But it works!
I also unsoldered resistor R19.
Discs now successfully format, verify, read and write in 40 track mode on an origionally high density drive with origionally high density discs.
I used CP/M using an image made on disc with my PC with the SAMDisc programme. And with setting priority of the 5.25" drive as A:, CP/M loads successfully.
Congratulations! :)
Great news, it would be good to have this info on the wiki.
This is my problem when attempting to burn .dsk images on floppy disc with CPCDiscXP:
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g164/Blurredman/1-1.jpg)
I will say that using SAMDisc works perfectly though, although the lack of options like being able to choose which side to burn to is a big drawback and I have to manually copy from side 1 to side 2 with the amstrad, then reburn the other side with SAMDisc
As far as burning images of orion prime, i can't copy side 1 to side 2 using the amstrad (copy protection?). I don't wanna use 4 discs for orion prime! xD mind you, i'd only need the one as I don't stick to playing games for long :laugh:
Got another problem aswel as the above :\
I do .dsk images straight onto discs. I normally burn it on side 1, then using the disckit programmes provided with CP/M, copy that game to the other side, where I can then put another game over the side 1. Therefore having two games, one on each side. It's worked in the past few days.
But with some images I seem to burn to the disc. It works fine, great. But then I cannot copy it to the other side. The programme states "Disc error on B: Track 1, sector #06 - no data. I have a feeling this is to do with the disc being 80 track and burning a 40 track game onto it obviously creates empty tracks, but using double step configuration in samdisk and the 40/80 track switch on the drive doesn't seem to effect it.
CPCDiscXP just doesn't wanna put these images onto disc, and SAMDisk only can put images on side 1, it can only format side 2.. :\
Any body got a solution?
Quote from: Blurredman on 17:31, 05 July 11
Got another problem aswel as the above :\
I do .dsk images straight onto discs. I normally burn it on side 1, then using the disckit programmes provided with CP/M, copy that game to the other side, where I can then put another game over the side 1. Therefore having two games, one on each side. It's worked in the past few days.
But with some images I seem to burn to the disc. It works fine, great. But then I cannot copy it to the other side. The programme states "Disc error on B: Track 1, sector #06 - no data. I have a feeling this is to do with the disc being 80 track and burning a 40 track game onto it obviously creates empty tracks, but using double step configuration in samdisk and the 40/80 track switch on the drive doesn't seem to effect it.
CPCDiscXP just doesn't wanna put these images onto disc, and SAMDisk only can put images on side 1, it can only format side 2.. :\
Any body got a solution?
don't use disckit3. you probably transferred a copy protected disc and disckit3 just can't copy it.
transfer discology to 5.25" disc (don't copy it to another).. and use that to copy the discs ;)
use "copie integrale".
Quote from: arnoldemu on 17:42, 05 July 11
don't use disckit3. you probably transferred a copy protected disc and disckit3 just can't copy it.
transfer discology to 5.25" disc (don't copy it to another).. and use that to copy the discs ;)
use "copie integrale".
Just done so.
Looks a very powerful programme.
Just need to learn French :P no English version?
Quote from: Blurredman on 17:31, 05 July 11
SAMDisk only can put images on side 1, it can only format side 2.. :\
Any body got a solution?
SAMdisk image.dsk a: --flip -h1That takes image.dsk and flips the sides so the original head 0 becomes head 1, then writes only head 1.
At any rate, get one while you can, before they're worth even more than their weight in gold, with auctions just ended already coming scarily close to that price point:
http://cgi.ebay.de/Lagerfund-5-25-1-2MB-Floppy-Drive-TEAC-FD-55GFR-NEU-/290589881921 (http://cgi.ebay.de/Lagerfund-5-25-1-2MB-Floppy-Drive-TEAC-FD-55GFR-NEU-/290589881921) €45.50
(and to complement, an ancient mainboard from its era http://cgi.ebay.de/AT-Mainboard-486-33-Intel-Prozessor-CPU-Cache-RAM-PC-/120754123506 (http://cgi.ebay.de/AT-Mainboard-486-33-Intel-Prozessor-CPU-Cache-RAM-PC-/120754123506) €30.50 - what do people find in these things these days, pure "unobtainium for 20 million a kilo"? ;))
OTOH, to recycle a U.S. ambassador's famous publicity stunt in 1960s' Spain (IIRC): "If that's inflation, I love it!" :D