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ACID chip inside

Started by MacDeath, 13:52, 23 October 09

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MacDeath

German and Hardware... a great love story isn't it ?


Well done... er... well clone !

norecess

Hi there,


Can you describe more the picture ? What does he really do ?


Phat 2 demo is not a ROM. You are supposed to put kind of roms on cartridge, so please, can you explain? :)


Thank you!


PS. It's awesome to see people turning around the CPC+. I'm a Plus owner (too) and very interested in such extensions!

arnoldemu

Quote from: Octoate on 01:03, 05 September 10
I think last but not least we got it...

Greeting from XzentriX 2010: Nilquader and Octoate...
Excellent!
My games. My Games
My website with coding examples: Unofficial Amstrad WWW Resource

arnoldemu

Quote from: norecess on 23:35, 05 September 10
Hi there,


Can you describe more the picture ? What does he really do ?
the cpc+ will lock up if the acid doesn't respond. So maybe your demo is being used for a soak test?
My games. My Games
My website with coding examples: Unofficial Amstrad WWW Resource

nurgle

Quote from: arnoldemu on 09:42, 06 September 10
the cpc+ will lock up if the acid doesn't respond. So maybe your demo is being used for a soak test?


That is exactly the case. They had the demo running for an hour with the emulated ACID IIRC.

Octoate

On the picture you see a standard CPC Plus cartridge and a CPLD development board with a Xilinx XC9572 CPLD. The CPLD is connected instead of an ACID. During the first day we had a closer look with a logic analyzer on the data which is send between the Plus and the ACID. Especially the CCLR pin was interesting because it was always high when we traced into it. We now know why: The Plus uses it for a reset when switching the CPC on to enter a defined state. If the communication get's wrong, the CPC set's the CCLR pin to low and tries to reset it again, but this usually didn't work in our tests.
After we got into it, we worked with my VHDL implementation and after half a day, where we had to trace some problems with the CPLD dev board, we were able to synthesize code, which was able to work for some thousand clocks (I will have to investigate into that even more - I want to get my implementation working, too :)). After all Nilquader tried his own Verilog version again and found out that he had a typo within the "compare" code and it worked. Yay :).
We then wanted to check if it is possible to run it for longer than just for the system screen. And because the ACID protection is running all the time, we used a demo :).

Btw, your pseudo code is correct and SIN has to be set on the falling edge of the clock signal.
--

nocash

Great that you got it working! Hmmmm, I thought it'd be obvious that CCLR is always high during operation :-) but yes, it's an interesting pin since it tells one when things go wrong. The thing that is confusing me is if CCLR is changed/sensed on falling or raising CLK edge... or elsewhere.

Same for the address line, I've no clue for which duration the CPC does output addresses, and when they are processed by the ACID, and if that's timed via /OE or via a mixup of /OE and CLK. Well, that part doesn't matter too much in practice, as long as it works one could do it this way or that way.

TFM

@Octoate: Thank's a lot for the explanation. You and Nil did an awesome job! Guys, you made history!
TFM of FutureSoft
Also visit the CPC and Plus users favorite OS: FutureOS - The Revolution on CPC6128 and 6128Plus

norecess

So... basically, can someone sum up all the things ? what it gives to a CPC Plus user ?
And what are your plans for the future ? (sales..?)

TFM

Quote from: norecess on 18:49, 08 September 10
So... basically, can someone sum up all the things ? what it gives to a CPC Plus user ?
And what are your plans for the future ? (sales..?)

Well, they are on the way to replace the ACID by using a CPLD. About sales... I think the ACID from N-tronics is still cheaper, but Octoate can tell more...
TFM of FutureSoft
Also visit the CPC and Plus users favorite OS: FutureOS - The Revolution on CPC6128 and 6128Plus

norecess

Talk to me as if I was your little brother : I don't know what is ACID, nor CPLD. Just keep the things simple : what does it allow?
From my comprehension, it's like ROM storage sized up to 512Kb. Am I right?

fano

Quote from: norecess on 19:12, 08 September 10Just keep the things simple : what does it allow ? From my comprehension, it's like ROM storage sized up to 512Kb. Am I right?
Simply to replace the original chip (ACID) used in cartrige to run Amstrad + (and maybe to extend it in the future).This chip is very rare and the picture shows a remplacement experiment with a programmable logic chip (CPLD).We (I?) expect new cartrige production from this  ;D

About 512K cartrige , it is just connections on its pcb and there is an article on the wiki that shows it.

Quote from: MacDeath on 18:53, 05 September 10Well done... er... well clone !
n1 m8 :laugh:
"NOP" is the perfect program : short , fast and (known) bug free

Follow Easter Egg products on Facebook !

arnoldemu

Quote from: norecess on 19:12, 08 September 10
Talk to me as if I was your little brother : I don't know what is ACID, nor CPLD. Just keep the things simple : what does it allow?
From my comprehension, it's like ROM storage sized up to 512Kb. Am I right?

Ok.

ACID is a small 16-pin IC within the cartridge. It is used for a form of protection. It talks to the ASIC inside the CPC+. If the communication is not good or stops, the computer will lock up.
The supply of these is limited so making new cartridges is not so easy.

CPLD: I am not sure. I think it is a programmable IC which can be made to perform any functions you want, provided you program it with the "code" to do them.

The CPC+: It has the ASIC, it's version of the "Gate Array", "CRTC", "8255" and Memory logic PAL, it provides hardware sprites, better vertical and hardware scrolling, programmable raster interrupts, more colours, "dma" sound lists, better interrupts.

The good thing about the CPC+ is that it supports up to 512k in rom.

Why is this good? You can have 512k of rom for code, gfx, sound, and then the whole 64k ram (gx4000,464+) or 128k ram (6128+) is then free for you to use as you want. So really you have more freedom than a pure ram based program....
My games. My Games
My website with coding examples: Unofficial Amstrad WWW Resource

MacDeath

#238
Also, it is to notice that getting something on PLUS using 512K rom would mean the machine up to its real potential...

One of the main problem with amstrad games : most of them were designed for cpc464 (old, not even Plus)  config actually...
(And a good part of them were even designed for ZX Spectrum 48 actually...)
So the whole game would load once or 48K only at one time... Tape being what it is, this is a serious limitation for a tile and software sprites based game.

Even well using the 6128 config (128K RAM and faster loadings...) it yet enough to achieve quite better stuff...
Just look at Orion Prime to catch my words...


So there, a 6128 PLUS mixing per exemple 512K ROM and perhaps a few more loadings from Disks... or even the normal 64K+512K is far beyound what was achieved...

Cartridge games were using only 64K RAM and 128K ROM... and some managed to be quite decent : Robocop2, Navy Seal, Magic Pinball, Pang, Plotting...
And only a few games actually used a full disk of Data (180Kx2 = 360K...) or more.
Mostly adventure games, RPG and so on...

So an action game with 512K of Data... this means lots of cinematics, musics, sprites or tiles... even sampled sounds and fast access to Datas (ROM) so shitton of additionnal stuff...
And having all the Datas on ROM, fully accessible... this means the RAM may then fully be used for software routines and optimisation, with more room than ever.

Game for 464 specs used to compress unused datas, and often uncompressed them eacxh time needed... loss of CPU ressource...
Also softwared sprites often got something in order to flip graphics (turn from left to right per example...)
Now we may just put both sprites sets (left and right version), gaining CPU time...
Or have a lot more variety in sprites... or whatever...

And a good RPG or tactical game for 6128+ mixing 512k cartridge AND Disks... would be simply Awesome too.

Only problem : would need a lot of work from the scene... ;)
a 512K ROM demo would be potentially...awesome... ::)

But of course, this doesn't mean the Amstrad is now the equal of an Amiga... ;D
We're still limited by the Z80...(64K at the same time...), the video modes (no square but blocky large pixels if "lot" of colours...and only 16 colour mode max.) and the Video display interrupt (50Hz... using 16K on the Z80 RAM)... And Hardwired sprites are not that easy to use as on a C64 or Japanese consoles.
But hey, this can only be better.


And a serie of No-ACID cartridge (a proper ROM box for PLUS using cartridge slot...) is still to be produced... for a reasonnable price too. :'(


Not that all those couldn't be done for a 464+ or 6128+ yet...
Just get a ROM box and the Basic Cartridge with ACID...
But it wasn't possible to get this on a GX4000 unless you cannibalized something...

Now we know we have some sort of unlimited supply of ACID (despite somewhat expensive...).


Also better OS and applications...




Just a question :
Did you tried this on the GX4000 we can see on the pictures ?

Nilquader

Quote from: MacDeath on 10:31, 09 September 10
Just a question :
Did you tried this on the GX4000 we can see on the pictures ?


We tried it on the GX4000 and on a 6128Plus.
--
Nilquader of SPRING
http://www.nilquader.net/

ivarf

Quote from: arnoldemu on 09:29, 09 September 10
Why is this good? You can have 512k of rom for code, gfx, sound, and then the whole 64k ram (gx4000,464+) or 128k ram (6128+) is then free for you to use as you want. So really you have more freedom than a pure ram based program....
So in theory we could have one or several 512 KBs of additional firmware with optimized routines, additional routines, RSXs and software in one cartridge. Someone "only" needs to snip the best of the best from the complete CPC-library of games and utilities and adjust them to the RSX-format and document everything. 

TFM

Quote from: MacDeath on 10:31, 09 September 10
But of course, this doesn't mean the Amstrad is now the equal of an Amiga... ;D

No, the CPC is not an Amiga - THNKS GOD!!! The CPC is superior to the Amiga, you just have to take a closer look. For example an Amiga never can be a discless station, while a CPC can be (Apps in ROM, data on buffered RAM disc! Yeah! Good nite Amiga!).
TFM of FutureSoft
Also visit the CPC and Plus users favorite OS: FutureOS - The Revolution on CPC6128 and 6128Plus

norecess

Mouhahah, you made me laugh  :D


I'm also an Amiga owner and these machines are still the best machines ever. So sad I just discovered them 2 years ago... (I know, took time!).

mahlemiut

The X68000 is much better than the Amiga  :D
Just a damn shame Sharp never saw fit to release it outside of Japan...
- Barry Rodewald

MacDeath

#244
Lol, a simple trolling and bwam ! the topic is now an Amiga topic...

Successfull Troll is successfull... 8)

And yeah, the 6128+ is cuter than the Amigha 500 (rounder design is full of win...)
And real men use Atari ST... Amiga is for wanky gamers... :laugh:

Post Edit : oh noes !!! I fed the troll...

Back to topic guys...


Would it be possible to have more information on the proto-card you used ? model, availability, price, specs...
And what equivalent we may find nowadays if it is a bit old ?
Also how much of the card/"Microcontroler" ressource did you actually used ?
Are there free ressources left to add stuffs ? like connecting also it to the extension port and emulate additional stuffs ?

norecess

Atari ST sucks big balls - sorry :)
I have an Amiga 600, which is the cutiest machine I ever had! and also one of the most extensible..

arnoldemu

Quote from: MacDeath on 15:07, 10 September 10
Successfull Troll is successfull... 8)
Feeding trolls hmmm... a game could be made from that...

My games. My Games
My website with coding examples: Unofficial Amstrad WWW Resource

norecess

But I forget to tell that of course, the CPC remains my favorite machine...  :-*

rexbeng

Quote from: norecess on 15:14, 10 September 10
Atari ST sucks big balls - sorry :)
I have an Amiga 600, which is the cutiest machine I ever had! and also one of the most extensible..


Amiga 600 suxxxxx!!!11


I rember a friend of mine got one and we couldn't properly play Kick Off 2 (you needed the num-pad to change team formation). >:(


So in my book Amiga 600 suxxorrrrr


rexbeng

norecess

Fortunately, things changed in last deceny for the A600 : with the presence of WHDLoad, you don't have any configuration problems, the game just works, loaded from HDD (no disc anymore! pfew! :)). Loading speed are so much faster, because the whole game is in memory. My A600 has 2Mb Chip-2Mb Fast RAM, a 4Gb HDD, Workbench 3.1 and the right Kickstart.. kick asses!!! :)

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