ACID chip inside

[TFM]

Fortunately, things changed in last deceny for the A600 : with the presence of WHDLoad, you don't have any configuration problems, the game just works, loaded from HDD (no disc anymore! pfew! ). Loading speed are so much faster, because the whole game is in memory. My A600 has 2Mb Chip-2Mb Fast RAM, a 4Gb HDD, Workbench 3.1 and the right Kickstart.. kick asses!!!

Come on... the amiga discs are good for four weeks, then you can fire and forget them (bad format anyway). To have anything on the hard disc, nice, so it's like my labtop, but slower ;-)

And the CPU.... pfui, it doesn't even has I/O instructions. Memory mapped suxx, because it's a cause for crashes. And that 32 bit register thing... if I want to split them into 16 bit registers or 8 bit registers then I can ONLY use the LOWEST one! If I split a 16 bit register of the Z80 I can use both of the resulting 8 bit registers. Z80 is way better. And the CPC (when using it's RAM disc) is more quick than the Amiga :-) Let's test this an the next global CPC meeting!

Now, that's enough food for the trolls (must be good for the whole weekend). And I would by that game about feeding trolls!

Back to ACID, the question is who much you have to pay for the CPLD solution?

[norecess]

It's crazy you want to compare side-by-side CPC and Amiga.. that said, I won't continue polluting this thread anymore


So... let's get back to ACID

[TFM]

It's crazy you want to compare side-by-side CPC and Amiga.. that said, I won't continue polluting this thread anymore


So... let's get back to ACID

Good idea! But... you can compare technical specs and you can compare reality! (That's more ofter quite differen!). In reality I can beat every other system (but the NC100-200) with a CPC (plus ROM board, plus buffered Exp.RAM) in some disciplines. Writing a letter is one example. But you're right, back to LSD.... eh... ACID!

[norecess]

Word Processing better on CPC ? Come on...
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9rv9tNJgLmI/Se2WFuvGsgI/AAAAAAAAABY/JO8nAy6CuwE/s400/Dissertation_in_Final_Writer.gif

(A600 - 68000 required)


ACIIID!

[TFM]

Word Processing better on CPC ? Come on...
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9rv9tNJgLmI/Se2WFuvGsgI/AAAAAAAAABY/JO8nAy6CuwE/s400/Dissertation_in_Final_Writer.gif

(A600 - 68000 required)


ACIIID!

Not better :-) Faster! Switch your CPC on, type !P, type in your lines, print them out, save letter on RAM disc C, switch off the CPC. ... And all other machines are still booting :-)

EDIT: Impressive pic btw!

[Octoate]

Back to ACID, the question is who much you have to pay for the CPLD solution?

That depends on the distributor, but the price ranges are usually 4,50 EUR to 9 EUR when using a 5V XC9536. If it is possible to use a 3.3V type you can lower that price to 1.60 EUR. The design needs approx. 80% of the XC9536, so there isn't much left.

@nocash: I am not sure when the address lines are set (CCLR and SIN were more interesting), but maybe Nilquader can have a look at his records and tell us more. The CCLR signal is usually set to low between the rising and the falling edge of the CLK signal.

@Administrators: Please split this topic and create a new thread for the Amiga / CPC battle .

[TFM]

@Administrators: Please split this topic and create a new thread for the Amiga / CPC battle .

Battle? A CPC can't loose in the CPC forum :-) Oh, yes, let's get offtopic again... well, so the CPLD solution can be a bit cheaper than to buy the original ACID chip. On the other hand. The real ACIDs are nearly constant in their number, some of them will die, but they will be definitely not produced any more. So I see future in the cpld replacement - and I'm lucky to own a bunch of the real ACIDs.

Now back to the topic... The CPC is the greatest system ever been built!

[MacDeath]

Are those CPLD surface mounted components ? if so this can be a little problematic as they may need a socket for traditionnal soldering, or surface mounted soldering, which may be more expensive.

getting a 5V version is perhaps better because this means we don't have to add components for the tension/Voltage.

80% used ? ok I suppose this let no room for additionnal stuffs... and whatever a cartridge port only cannot really enable real interaction I suppose.


So, a CPLD cartridge would of course need a properly programmed CPLD, perhaps a socket if surface-mounted components...
a pice of ROM (flash, is it good ?) But a way to re-write the ROM is surely needed unless you aim a full production of original games...


All those on a board.so perhaps easily more than 20 €uros per cartridge, those still having no box.

Does any of you have good electronic supplier or can manage a production ?


Also :

Feeding trolls hmmm... a game could be made from that...

Pehaps porting this from DS to Amstrad PLUS... on "NoAcid" cartridges then..

TFM/FS = Troll For Men / Food Supplier 

[TFM]

Can't see them starving...

Who is interrested in producing (or buying) cardridge boards. They're small, so they can't be that expensive.

Well, I need 100 of them, so we will get a good price! Who elso wants to order them / or build them by himself?

[steve]

I would be interested in buying a couple to start with, and more later.

[MacDeath]

Well, if the whole scene is good... it is far easy to get 30 pieces actually solds... if only those are especially designed for a multi-Rom stuff...

So perhaps an additionnal connector to re-write (if Flash ROM)... or a ROM socket ?

I would be interested but before starting a real production, the card must be well designed... a real ROM box, not simply cartridges, first...
Proper Carteidges... those should be to make money on Console collectors, so new games to run on GX4000... with plastic shell and so on...


But yeah, a pair of ACID would be fine for me just to be sure I woudl be self sufficient with no cannibalizings...

[steve]

It has to be a cartridge to fit in the cartridge slot, however, a rombox with a writeable cartridge slot and rom programming capability is a good idea.

[TFM]

Ok, we should clearly seperate this:

1. A circuit board, exactly like in existing cartridges, using up to 512 KB EPROM.

2. A kind of expansion board, descripted by MacDeath.

The latter must first be designed, the former is just a 1:1 copy of a usual cartridge.


Now let me start with the 1:1 copy of a normal cartridge: I will order 100 of them, if you need them also please tell me, so we can order a bigger number, this makes it cheaper.

[steve]

Whoever is working on the acid replacement, could you tell us if it will be pin compatible with the real acid chip so it will fit on these PCBs that TFM/FS is producing?

[Nilquader]

Whoever is working on the acid replacement, could you tell us if it will be pin compatible with the real acid chip so it will fit on these PCBs that TFM/FS is producing?

No, they will not be pin compatible - the CPLD used to replace the acid is only available in PLCC or VQPF (both are SMD) packages. And they won't fit on the PCB that TFM is producing for the real ACID, unless he adds additional solder pads to assemble either the real ACID or the CPLD.


And we should use a Flash EPROM instead of a traditional UV-eraseable EPROM. Or at least add an additional LK to allow both EPROM variants.

[nurgle]

And we should use a Flash EPROM instead of a traditional UV-eraseable EPROM. Or at least add an additional LK to allow both EPROM variants.

A flash cartridge like the ones available for Gameboy, etc. would be nice. Add a connector and a USB cable so the cartrdige can be reflashed from a PC. The programmer hardware can be in the cable to keep the cost of the cartridges down.


Btw.: I want a plus now. 

[redbox]

A flash cartridge like the ones available for Gameboy, etc. would be nice. Add a connector and a USB cable so the cartrdige can be reflashed from a PC. The programmer hardware can be in the cable to keep the cost of the cartridges down.

I would definitely buy one of these...

[MacDeath]

The main problem have already been discussed...

We need from 2 to 3 different models actually...

--New old fashionned cartridges : the same as old cartridge, perhaps to release "original games" or apllications.
Such one could use existing ACID (a stock seems to be still available) but may also be based on pre-programmed CPLDs...therefore being designed differently.

--Multiple ROM cartridges or 2 pieces cartridges : on part include ACID (or CPLD) the other would be like a socket or a slot for a new cartridge format, including only the Flash/ROM... this would be great to release new games or anything "original" and actually to sell...
I would like this solution, perhaps more development cost, but once you have the ACID the other cartridges (programs) may be less expensive...
Mostly if we plan to really produce stuffs and GX4000 compatible stuffs IMO.

--Reprogrammable Rom box : would need a way to reprogram the memory... a plug to connect to a USB /PC or a plug to connect to the extension port of the Amstrad then...


Concerning the ROM we would use, Flash seems quite nteresting, isn't it ? perhaps easier to "burn", and also easier to find...

[nocash]

Yes, flash rom is fine, no question. Easier to erase (no UV light), easier to burn (no 12V voltage needed), and nowadays, it's also cheaper than eproms.

USB... would be nice for people who want to program cartridges from PC. But it's overcomplicated hardware-wise; the CPLD is a logic chip, not a microprocessor, so there's no way to implement the USB protocol on it. It'd make more sense to me if the CPC could write to the flash rom - that way one could both store games and game-positions on it.

> Multiple ROM cartridges or 2 pieces cartridges
I would doubt that that 2-pieces solution could be become a standard. Neither if you want to buy/sell games, nor if you want a rewrite-able cartridge. Can't imagine anybody really wants hardware in two pieces. Asides, that solution isn't new, one could have used it back in 1990: Building an adaptor that allows to connect two cartridges (an official cartridge with its ROM disabled, and a nonstandard cartridge with plain ROM in it). I am sure many people did build such hardware at home, but it's rather clumsy and thus never became a standard.

> Reprogrammable Rom box
You mean like the ROM boxes that connect expansion rom to the expansion port?
ROM boxes do already exist (maybe no reprogrammable flash-ones), but anyways, they don't have anything to do with ACID chips.

[nocash]

PS. just figured out that it'd be a bit problematic to boot a cpc+ with only a blank cartridge inserted, so the cpc+ could program blank carts only if it boots from expansion rom. Anyways, for saving game positions it would be nice to be able to write to the flash memory via the cartridge connector.

To program carts directly from a PC one would probably need a separate programmer (like nurgle suggested). If the carts are write-able through the cartridge connector then somebody could build such a device at later time (and for now, there would be need to recurse additional programming hardware in the cartridge design).

[Nilquader]

[/size]

--New old fashionned cartridges :

We don't have to make two separate layouts here. There is enough space on the cartridge board to include CPLD and ACID mounting options on the same board layout. At least if we use SMD components whenever possible (which we should use, because they are cheaper, less space-consuming and easier to find).

--Multiple ROM cartridges or 2 pieces cartridges :

I don't like that idea. I remember these SUPER NES/Super Famicon adapter boards to circumvent the region lockout. Instead of having one point of failure (the socket), we will have three. That means much more blowing into connectors. The CPLD acid will probably cost just about 2-3 Euros, so you need to buy lots of ACID-less cartridges before the adaptor board pays off.

just figured out that it'd be a bit problematic to boot a cpc+ with only a blank cartridge inserted, so the cpc+ could program blank carts only if it boots from expansion rom. Anyways, for saving game positions it would be nice to be able to write to the flash memory via the cartridge connector.

That's not the only problem. The logic needed to program a cartridge via cartridge slot is not that trivial, because the Plus only allows read transfers to the slot. So a logic circuit inside the cartridge would need to translate two read transfers into one write transfer. So an external programmer (via CPC printer port and/or USB) is probably the best solution.

[nocash]

> the Plus only allows read transfers to the slot. So a logic
> circuit inside the cartridge would need to translate two
> read transfers into one write transfer.

Yup, I know. But it'd be the only way to store game positions in the cartridge. Some months ago 1-2 people here mentioned that they'd like that feature. Though, on the other hand, I don't really like the idea to implement it in emulators, it'd pretty much slow down the emulation speed to watch memory reads. So, the REAL problem is that there is no /IORQ on the cartridge bus, what a crap! :-)

Well, if the writes are invoked by reads from the last cartridge bank, emulators could activate the "slower" emulation mode in that situation, and still run at full speed when using normal memory banks. As far as I know, the existing carts use only 16 out of 32 banks. So it'd be nice to define a standard how to use the upper banks; I'd recommend to use only 31 banks for reading, and using the last bank to invoke write operations. Maybe some bits/addresses reserved for other things, like bank switching for bigger carts.

It shouldn't be too difficult to implement. But it would be best to have it defined now - before we end up with a terrible mess with different methods that are incompatible with each other.

[Nilquader]

It shouldn't be too difficult to implement. But it would be best to have it defined now - before we end up with a terrible mess with different methods that are incompatible with each other.

It's not difficult, but you might need a bigger CPLD to implement such a writing scheme. You need about 33 additional I/O lines on the CPLD (if I counted correctly:

Spoiler: ShowHide

data bus in/out(16)+upper 5 address lines to detect access of last bank+first 8 address lines to transfer a data byte+WE+CE in/out(2)=33

) to implement this one. So a 44 PIN chip wouldn't work anymore. And the 84 pin version of the XC9572 is even more expensive.

[MacDeath]

There may perhaps be a solution to have some kind of saves on GX4000...
Tapes.


You emit Datas in Audio thx to sound output (ouch,) and put them on any sound recording device...
Then you use a Codemaster-CD like device...  reading your datas thx to Joy port.

But can the AY psg generate such signal ?


Yeah, It's a bit messy, lol...

[arnoldemu]

I would definitely buy one of these...

me too. I would definitely buy one of these.