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General Category => Amstrad CPC hardware => Topic started by: nocash on 16:52, 09 April 10

Title: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 16:52, 09 April 10
Hi, I've tried to compile a list of all CPC mainboards here, http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions. There seem to be many-many of versions & sub-versions.

Some pictures are still missing (marked by the red circle with invisible white question mark), and probably further boards exists, which aren't listed at all. I hope some people will add more board numbers & photos!

Oh, and maybe one or two listed versions didn't exist at all (for example, the "CPC6128 version 1.5", does that exist?) (and maybe the drawings in the service manuals were unreleased prototypes?).
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 18:28, 09 April 10
I've been trying to spot differences between the picture of my 664 board and the one in amstrad.cpc.free.fr and they're almost identical but for a couple of details.


As you say it reads MC0005B instead of MC0005A and you can find a resistor attached a bit up from a small IC near the A of Amstrad.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 03:25, 10 April 10
Found another pic of the MC0005B while moving pics from the cpcwiki coppermine gallery. It's better resolution than the free.fr one, and has the extra resistor, too. Btw. good finding! I didn't notice that there was an extra resistor.

Hmmmm, only two 664 boards... is that all? Was the 664 discontinued when the 6128 came out? Or should there be also newer 664 boards existing?

Or, possibly 664s with newer 6128 boards inside (without PAL and with only 64K RAM installed), the 6128 board does have that option, but no idea if it that variant was ever produced?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 03:36, 10 April 10
Does somebody know why there were GX4000 boards without TV modulator?
Maybe Amstrad supported only PAL modulators, but no SECAM ones... so french versions never included modulators?
Or were there special super GX4000 versions with monitor instead modulator?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 11:03, 10 April 10
Quote from: nocash on 03:36, 10 April 10
Does somebody know why there were GX4000 boards without TV modulator?
Maybe Amstrad supported only PAL modulators, but no SECAM ones... so french versions never included modulators?
Or were there special super GX4000 versions with monitor instead modulator?
I am sure this is documented? Maybe it's in the GX4000 user manual? The French version doesn't have modulator. The English version has modulator.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: gerald on 12:37, 10 April 10
Quote from: nocash on 03:36, 10 April 10
Does somebody know why there were GX4000 boards without TV modulator?
Maybe Amstrad supported only PAL modulators, but no SECAM ones... so french versions never included modulators?
Or were there special super GX4000 versions with monitor instead modulator?

SCART was mandatory for coulor TV sold in France since 1980. I do not know if it was the case in other country.
So Amstrad saved on the PAL encoder and modulator, assuming that french user should have a proper TV set.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 13:57, 10 April 10
QuoteBtw. good finding! I didn't notice that there was an extra resistor.

Thanks man. It took me some minutes just looking at the two pictures just to notice it. Otherwise they seem identical.

What do you think it is the purpose of the resistor? You can see also the bottom side of the MC0005A board here (http://cpcwiki.eu/imgs/d/dc/CPC664_PCB_Bottom.jpg).

By the way, this is a very interesting thread, I'll have to check my 6128's for any of the missing pcb revisions.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 15:51, 10 April 10
I just scanned the 6128 rev 2 (Z70290 MC0020B) board at 300dpi resolution.

You can find it in the gallery (http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Photo_Gallery), in the CPC Old Generation article (http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/CPC_old_generation) or in the Mainboard revisions article (http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions).
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 16:00, 10 April 10
Added a description of the resistor on the http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions page, not sure WHY it connects to those signals. Seems to have something to do with DRAM timings. Maybe they switched to another DRAM manufacturer, and then needed to add that patch.

For the GX4000. The User Manual doesn't really describe it. But if you look at the section with french language: The "parts list" drawing shows a scart cable instead RF cable. Though the french connection example still shows the RF cable.
The Service Manual contains separate RGB/Power schematics for french version, uploaded/extracted that schematic here, http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:Edited_GX4000_French_Schematic.gif

Seems to be no-SECAM-support related. Atari didn't support SECAM too well, too (in their Atari 2600). Maybe, in turn, the french TV market had more TVs that support for RGB than other countries? In germany, Scart became standard between 1980..1990. But, I think most german "scart" TVs only had (and maybe still have) support for Composite (pin19), not for RGB (pin7,11,15). Been wondering about that anyways: How many old/now TVs have RGB support?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 16:11, 10 April 10
> I just scanned the 6128 rev 2 (Z70290 MC0020B) board at 300dpi resolution.
Perfect. Scans are looking even better than photos. I've removed the old photo from the Mainboard Versions page, so there's only one picture per board-version.
Maybe each board-version in the list should also have a link, to a page titled "More pictures of MC0020B" or so?
That way one could add different pics, close-ups, solder-side, etc.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 16:18, 10 April 10
I don't know if we are going to have that many pictures in order to justify a brand new page for every board revision.


Maybe it would be better to use the <gallery> tag and put the links there to all the images like in here (http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/CPC_old_generation#CPC6128).


I think it would be more comfortable to navigate.



Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 17:07, 10 April 10
I think (hope) the "Mainboard Versions" page is fine without the "gallery" tag. I have been intentionally not using "galley" there; I wanted the images to be summarized above each other, not next to each other, and without too much blank space between them.

Anyways, yes, for a page with "More Pictures", the "gallery" tag would be the best solution.

Hmmmm, linking to to a single page as "Boards#version"... or separate "Board_version" pages...
Both would have some ups and downs.

"Board_version" might result in many small pages, though they might grow, and then they would become the better solution.

"Boards#version" would be fine. Only, I'd be afraid that somebody could rename the section, for example, from "version" to "Version". Resulting in broken links (unlike page-names, renamed section-names aren't automatically redirected, so links to page#section are a bit fragile).
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Terje_Norway on 23:25, 10 April 10
Hi,
An interesting thread, and perhaps I could contribute a little to it  :) .
I have gone through my collection of Amstrad/Schneider CPC computers, and the number of revisions could be high. If You turn a CPC upside down, You'll find the serial number, and on most machines also a MFR'S number or something like that. On many machines it is a yellow label with a letter. 
Obviously MFR means ManuFacturers Revision number.


My computers has the following numbers : 
Machine                         Serial                  Revision
Amstrad CPC464         535-8505506         B
Amstrad CPC464        148218 K31-4X      ??
Amstrad CPC464          10631 K32-4X       E
Amstrad CPC464           06730 -90-12      ??
Amstrad CPC464           24656 -91-01       I
Schneider CPC664       86340 K32-54        A
Amstrad CPC6128       133790 K32-57      A
Amstrad CPC6128       222758 K32-5X      I
Amstrad CPC6128       222742 K32-57      I
Amstrad CPC6128        532 6805853        D
Amstrad CPC6128        542 9310181        K
Schneider CPC6128     136998 K31-56     E
Schneider CPC6128     151494 K32-57     E
Schneider CPC6128     532 6523111        B
464 plus                       531-0782924       A    (ESP)
464 plus                       (board only : MC0122C [7]
6128 plus                     531-0754346       B    (FRA)
6128 plus                     531-0760453       B    (FRA)
GX4000                         735-0919698      B
GX4000                         735-0958752      C
GX4000                         735-0959167      C


I have opened the GX4000's and the letters on the back does match the numbers on the PCB (at least for these machines)
I could make scans of the prints if anyone interested.


Yours


Terje Grind
Norway
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 05:48, 11 April 10
Didn't looked underneath my CPC recently. You are right, it's having a big serial sticker, and a small "MFR'S D" sticker, matching with the ending letter of the MC0023D board name. Also found this in internet,
MFR is an abbreviation for Multi Function Receiver
MFR is an abbreviation for Multi-Function Radar
MFR is an abbreviation for Mutual Force Reduction
hmmm, okay, that doesn't make too much sense :-) elsewhere I've found it used for ManuFactuRer, so maybe it just says where the board was manufactured (in case there have been different locations), and the ending A,B,D,I,E letters aren't actually Revisions.
At least the boards are looking the same, no matter of that letter (except for the extra resistor on the patched board, but that's more related to the components, as than to the PCB itself).

Which prints did you mean? Scanning the printer stickers, or the printed PCBs?
PCBs would be interesting! And the corresponding stickers, too.
Btw. great collection - I've only a 664 and 6128 - but no plus :-(
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 13:35, 12 April 10
Hello Terje,

This is really great info. I'll have to check all my CPCs! :D Where did you come across it??
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 16:28, 12 April 10
Across what? You mean the multi-function radar? Or the mutual force reduction?
EDIT: Sorry, you meant where Terje came accross his info... I think, he said, he was looking on the stickers.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Terje_Norway on 23:01, 12 April 10
Hi,
I had some time left while waiting for my dinner to be ready (It took half an hour in the oven  :) )
So to kill some time, I tested my theory in practice ! ! !


I have opened 6 CPCs and the results are as following :


01.) Amstrad CPC464         10631 K32-4X    E     - MC0001A - Z70100
02.) Amstrad CPC464       148218 K31-4X   ??    - MC0001A - Z70100
03.) Amstrad CPC464       535-8505506       B     - MC0044D - Z70375
04.) Amstrad CPC464        06730   -90-12   ??    - MC0044D - Z70375
05.) Amstrad CPC464        24656   -91-01    I     - MC0099A[6]- Z80329
06.) Schneider CPC664       86340  K32-54   A    - MC0005A - Z70205


What conclusions can I make of it.


1.) and 2.) are from the first manufactured generation of CPC464's. Both boards are (C) 1983.


3.) are from a later revision, and is only half size of the original board. Can't find any copyright on it, so it is uncertain when it was made. Based on an notice in ACU in 1987/88 the board could have been made late 1987 or early 1988. This is just a theory of mine ! ! !


4.) and 5.) Both of these are interesting, especially when we know the production months (90-12 and 91-01) of these. Both where manufactures after  the introduction of the Plus machines, so my guess is they were made of what was left when they stopped production of the original 464 machines.


What will support my theory ! ! !


4.) Has the old Amstrad logo in front. The REC button is grey, just like the Schneider 464. Board fills half the case for the 464.
5.) Has the new Amstrad logo (You know which one). Board only fills 1/4 of the 464 case. It's very small  :) ! ! ! Board is (C) 1988.


Did someone mention "How could they make nearly 25-30000 machines with leftovers ??"


Again, just a wild theory of mine. What is the serial number consists of 4 digits and one control number. That limits the number of leftover machines to 2500-3000 machines. That doesn't sound all that bad I think.


That has to be if for tonight. 


Terje Grind
Norway

Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 11:34, 13 April 10
25-30k machines seems quite a bit, but not totally improbable. 2.5-3k units is an easy deal. And indeed it appears, with more and more certainty, that they did use leftovers, like the CPC (Not Schneider) with grey keys and all....

Btw, can we have a photo of (5)? I don't think I remember a board so small...
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 11:41, 13 April 10
Quote from: Gryzor on 11:34, 13 April 10
Btw, can we have a photo of (5)? I don't think I remember a board so small...
http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions#CPC464_version_4_.28cost-down.29
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 11:43, 13 April 10
Quote from: Devilmarkus on 11:41, 13 April 10
http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions#CPC464_version_4_.28cost-down.29

Ah, that's the one? Is it really 1/4th of the case?? Would love to have on for my wall :)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 11:51, 13 April 10
Quote from: Gryzor on 11:43, 13 April 10
Ah, that's the one? Is it really 1/4th of the case?? Would love to have on for my wall :)

Let's compare it to the first rev. of 464 pcb's:
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 12:31, 13 April 10
This is a great photo...

Two things:

-The first mobo had a lot of wasted space at the borders. Building a design that uses less ICs makes much sense, of course, but using less plastic for the board itself has rather minimal returns....
-So, seeing as they actually redesigned the case, and this is a MAJOR cost, I wonder why they would do it... Maybe it did make economic sense, but it's still interesting.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 13:04, 13 April 10
Quote from: Gryzor on 12:31, 13 April 10
This is a great photo...

Two things:

-The first mobo had a lot of wasted space at the borders. Building a design that uses less ICs makes much sense, of course, but using less plastic for the board itself has rather minimal returns....
-So, seeing as they actually redesigned the case, and this is a MAJOR cost, I wonder why they would do it... Maybe it did make economic sense, but it's still interesting.
Ok you make a smaller pcb, now you can't use the same case, because some components just will not fit into the correct holes (e.g. monitor etc).

So you are now forced to redesign *part* of the case. Maybe this itself is not so expensive???

Keyboard is same, position of some parts of the case have changed... so maybe not so bad?

EDIT: Compare this circuit board against the previous revision of the pcb and maybe you will see that the connectors have the same positions.
so really they changed position of connectors *before* this board. between v1 and v2...
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 13:17, 13 April 10
In Marcus' comparison photo the connectors are not at the same position... You generally *can* have a redesin and keep the same case (I think all my ST/STes use the same case, though the mobo is different) by keeping the connectors and screw holes as design restrictions

Changing the case,  unfortunately, is not an easy thing to do. Yes, the modifications may appear minimal, but constructing new molds and running test productions with them and whatnot is major... any industrial engineers among us? :)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 13:27, 13 April 10
As you have seen, Amstrad was working on cheaper solutions.
So it's logically, that they also modify the case and board, if the result is cheaper for production costs.
And the new arrangement for the connectors in the 464 are closer now to the 6128.
I always would prefer a joystick port on the side of the case.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 14:24, 13 April 10
Quote from: Gryzor on 13:17, 13 April 10
In Marcus' comparison photo the connectors are not at the same position... You generally *can* have a redesin and keep the same case (I think all my ST/STes use the same case, though the mobo is different) by keeping the connectors and screw holes as design restrictions

Changing the case,  unfortunately, is not an easy thing to do. Yes, the modifications may appear minimal, but constructing new molds and running test productions with them and whatnot is major... any industrial engineers among us? :)
Yes, the connectors are not in the same position between these two PCB.
But Amstrad *DID* change the position of the connectors on the 464!
I know because I have more than one model of 464.

So in terms of size the comparison is valid, but in terms of connectors it is not.
Maybe Markus should compare this board with the previous revision and show the connector positions?
But really a size comparison is what you wanted?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 14:34, 13 April 10
Interesting:
The board for the 664 MC0005B is the same board than mine.
But it seems that the one on the wiki-photo has been patched.
I marked a resistor on this board with a blue frame. This resistor does not exist on my board
and is also not numbered in the wiki photo.
Do someone have any idea why it's here? Does it patch something or for what should it be good for?

Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 14:39, 13 April 10
A new challenger has arrived!  :o


On sunday we discovered a weird motherboard revision at CPCManiaco's place and we took some pictures.


I've uploaded them here (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=XPUBLTXS).


They are not of high quality, but I'll scan the pcb as soon as I can.


The mobo has the numbers Z70378 and MC0046A.


QuoteDo someone have any idea why it's here? Does it patch something or for what should it be good for?

I noticed the resistor as the only difference between the two known 664 motherboard revisions. Maybe it's there to adjust the system to IC's working at different speeds. That is, maybe one mobo has faster memory IC's and are selected by putting the resistor there. Maybe.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 14:46, 13 April 10
Quote from: robcfg on 14:39, 13 April 10
A new challenger has arrived!  :o


On sunday we discovered a weird motherboard revision at CPCManiaco's place and we took some pictures.


I've uploaded them here (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=XPUBLTXS).


They are not of high quality, but I'll scan the pcb as soon as I can.


The mobo has the numbers Z70378 and MC0046A.

It looks similar to my PCB for my 1991's CPC 464.
Except the homebrew rom inside...


Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 15:00, 13 April 10
The difference seem to be the blue filter thing @ top of the board.
It's the only difference which I can spot on the fly from rev. MC0044A which had man filters & resistors at this place.

Maybe Amstrad uses this "thing" outside UK only because, as we know, the German boards also had a metal shield around.
Like the Spanish one you just uploaded.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 15:04, 13 April 10
Yes, the resistor between A0 and /CASADDR seems to be timing or noise related. Having such an "analogue" patch on the digital address bus is a bit strange. On the two photos, the manufacturer logos on the DRAM chips are: "triangle" logo on unpatched board, and "T" logo on patched board. (does that apply for other boards, too?)
Dunno what the logos are for... Camel and Toshiba...? :-)

Yep, listing the board size would be a nice feature. The Z70290 (6128 v2) is 320x155mm. Somebody has more values for other boards?

Eventually, it might look nice too scale them on the page accordingly? Like 400mm=200px, 320mm=160px. etc. At the moment all are 200px in width.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 16:17, 13 April 10
The triangle is the mitsubishi logo.


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Mitsubishi_logo.svg/150px-Mitsubishi_logo.svg.png)


And the other logo seems to be Texas Instruments.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/95/Texas_Instruments_Logo.svg/280px-Texas_Instruments_Logo.svg.png)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 16:40, 13 April 10
> The triangle is the mitsubishi logo.
> And the other logo seems to be Texas Instruments.
Could be... older variants. The "T" looks entirely different, just an uppercase T. And the triangle similar, but not exactly same; one wireframe trangle, surrounded by three solid triangles.

Thanks for the photos! I've added the mainboard pic in the list. And deposited the others on the Gallery page... they are resampled to 1MB/total, okay? Easier to handle, and the quality still looks nearly identical to me.

> Changing the case,  unfortunately, is not an easy thing to do.
Maybe, but that part needs to be paid only once. With large quantities, the small cost-down boards should have saved some money.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: MacDeath on 16:57, 13 April 10
I took a look at your "Mainboard versions" page.

Good job ! 8)

We should do the same with disk drives... perhaps ?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 17:03, 13 April 10
Quote from: nocash on 16:40, 13 April 10
Thanks for the photos! I've added the mainboard pic in the list. And deposited the others on the Gallery page... they are resampled to 1MB/total, okay? Easier to handle, and the quality still looks nearly identical to me.

You can also use the photo I uploaded.
It shows both sides. You can cut it with Photoshop or other software.
It's more "straight" than the spanish one... ;)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 17:33, 13 April 10
The 5MB png? Didn't download it... took forever :-( yup, it's more square, and looks better in the list. Also added the front/back in the gallery. Just to be sure: The board was in a Schneider, too? Or was it also used in Amstrad models?

And the spanish is still there (gallery), too. The highlight on the that pics has been the rebadged keys with the N.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 17:49, 13 April 10
Quote from: nocash on 17:33, 13 April 10
Just to be sure: The board was in a Schneider, too? Or was it also used in Amstrad models?

Yes, it's a Schneider. But mine has UK keyboard (coloured keys) I changed them some time ago because the old keyboard was in a very bad condition.
I used this board + it's case to create my 3d model for a CPC 464 but it uses UK Amstrad textures ;)
The jpg I attached is the original texture for this 3d - model of the board.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Terje_Norway on 03:04, 14 April 10
Update on boards:
Checked 8x CPC6128
Keyboard pt no is Z70221 for all 8 of them. Both Amstrad and Schneider machines


Schneider CPC664             86340    K32-54     A
Keyboard PCB: Pt.no Z70209
Board PCB    : MC0005B  -  Pt.NO Z70205
Volume PCB : MC0007B
Disc Drive Pt.no : 30001  -  Date  NO DATE
Amstrad CPC6128              133790    K32-57   A
Board PCB    : MC0009B  -  Pt.NO Z70210  -  (C) 1985
Volume PCB  : MC0011B
Disc Drive Pt.no : Z70312  -  Date 27 Apr 86
Schneider CPC6128             136998   K31-56   E  (Has not removed shielding ! !)
Board PCB   : MC0012A  -  Pt.NO Zxxxxx
Volume PCB : MC0014A
Disc Drive Pt.no : 30001  -  Date NO DATE
Schneider CPC6128             151494   K32-57   E  (Has not removed shielding ! !)
Board PCB    : MC0012B  -  Pt.no Zxxxxx
Volume PCB  : MC0014B
Disc Drive Pt.no : Z80264  -  Date  6 Apr 89
Amstrad CPC6128                222742   K32-5X    I
Board PCB   : MC0020A  -  Pt.NO Z70290
Volume PCB : MC0022A
Disc Drive Pt.no : 30002  -  Date 27 Aug 85
Amstrad CPC6128               222758   K32-5X     I
Board PCB   : MC0020A  -  Pt.NO Z70290
Volume PCB : MC0022A
Disc Drive Pt.no : 30002  -  Date 30 Aug 85
Amstrad CPC6128                 532 6805853       D
Board PCB   : MC0020C  -  Pt.NO Z70290
Volume PCB : MC0022C
Disc Drive Pt.no : Z70312  -  Date 04 Jun 86
Amstrad CPC6128               542-9310181        K
Board PCB    : MC0020I  -  Pt.NO Z70290  -  (C) 1985
Volume PCB  : MC0022I
Disc Drive Pt.no : Z80264  -  Date 17 Nov 88
Schneider CPC6128         5326523111           B    (Has not removed shielding ! !)
Board PCB    : MC0023C  -  Pt.no Zxxxxx
Volume PCB  : MC0025C
Disc Drive Pt.no : 30002  -  Date 10 Mar 86


Lose disc drives : 
Disc Drive Pt.no (12V) : 30001  -  Date NO DATE
Disc Drive Pt.no (12V) : Z80264 - Date 07 Dec 90
Disc Drive Pt.no (12V) : Z70312 - Date NO DATE - 01 Aug 86 - 22 Aug 86 - 20 Mar 87 - 18 May 87 - 23 Mar 88
Disc Drive Pt.no (  5V) : Z80425 - Date 16 Mar 90 (Plus drive)
Disc Drive Pt.no (12V) : Z70313 - Date 18  Apr 86 - 02 May 87 (PCW 8000 B-drive ? ?)
Disc Drive Pt.no (12V) : Z80265 - Date 20 May 88 - 12 Oct 88 - 17 Feb 89 (PCW 9000 drive ? ?)
Thats it for tonight


Yours
Terje Grind
NORWAY

Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 09:34, 14 April 10
Seeing this superb rendering (we want wallpapers! 1680x1050!!!!!), I can't help but wondering if they should have added some dead weight in the case, like the heavy-sixer VCS...
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 11:16, 14 April 10
Quote from: Gryzor on 09:34, 14 April 10
Seeing this superb rendering (we want wallpapers! 1680x1050!!!!!), I can't help but wondering if they should have added some dead weight in the case, like the heavy-sixer VCS...

Ok... Let's hack a bit around...
Here you go... (http://www.google.com/search?hl=xx-hacker&q=wallpaper+1680x1050&btnG=z34r%3C%7C-%7C)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 11:24, 14 April 10
Hahaha damn you you mad hax0r :D

Look at these beauties:
http://www.c64forever.com/gfx/wallpapers/c64forever-com_ready_1680x1050.jpg
http://www.c64forever.com/gfx/wallpapers/c64forever-com_64k_1680x1050.jpg

The look like my Type-Ins photo from the wiki;'s main page...
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 11:40, 14 April 10
Quote from: Gryzor on 11:24, 14 April 10
Hahaha damn you you mad hax0r :D

Look at these beauties:
http://www.c64forever.com/gfx/wallpapers/c64forever-com_ready_1680x1050.jpg (http://www.c64forever.com/gfx/wallpapers/c64forever-com_ready_1680x1050.jpg)
http://www.c64forever.com/gfx/wallpapers/c64forever-com_64k_1680x1050.jpg (http://www.c64forever.com/gfx/wallpapers/c64forever-com_64k_1680x1050.jpg)

The look like my Type-Ins photo from the wiki;'s main page...
That is a bit too close... would you take another photo but a bit furthur away, us oldies have eyes that can't cope with that?
;)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 11:42, 14 April 10
Just move your head backwards a bit :)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 11:52, 14 April 10
Quote from: Gryzor on 11:42, 14 April 10
Just move your head backwards a bit :)
thank you young-un that did the trick.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 12:38, 14 April 10
Quote from: arnoldemu on 11:52, 14 April 10
thank you young-un that did the trick.


Inspired by the Simpsons episode where Bart orders "Enhance image" and Lisa pushes his head closer to the screen :D
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 15:04, 14 April 10
Hi Terje, what is a 664/6128 Keyboard PCB? I thought real PCBs were used only in very old 464s, and all later models had membrane foils; of which, the 6128 membrane photo at http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Photo_Gallery doesn't show a PT NO.

How are chances that you take some photos/scans before reassembling the computers? And maybe check the board size, the only known size is 320x155 mm for 6128 version 2.

Photo WITH shielding would be funny, too. I think that paranoia stuff existed only german models (?), and people in other countries never saw those super-shieldings. Btw. the shielding isn't soldered to the board, easy to remove: Just held by some screws, and four small metal clips on left/right edges.

EDIT: Found the PT NO, on the sticker on the metal base plate under the keyboard membrane.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 21:11, 14 April 10
The Americans had some pretty strict rules on EM interference as well...
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 03:31, 19 April 10
Uploaded a NoPicture.png version of the NoPicture.gif, bypassing the cpcwiki bug that occurs on GIF files. Maybe the PNG is making it clearer which pictures are still missing on http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions :-) your chance - you can be the first person ever to make a picure of the DDI-1 board :-)

Dummy board size "???x??? mm" templates are there, too. Your chance, again. Become the first person in the whole universe who has ever measured and documented the size of the 464 board! Wouldn't that be cool? ;-)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: gerald on 21:23, 19 April 10
Hi All

Just to add a bit more confusion, I've got on 464 bought France in the late 85 :
PTNO Z70200 MC0002C copyright 1984 (same as the 472 in the wiki), but with a good old gate array (40007 with heatsink).
PCB size is 405x152mm

One French 6128 manufactured in mid 87:
PTNO Z70290 MC0020G copyright 1985, PCB 320x155mm

One French 6128Plus manufactures mid 1990:
MC0122C 2700-016P-3 1990, PCB 282x142mm (picture attached)



Gerald
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: gerald on 21:34, 19 April 10
And one DDI-1

160x65mm
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 21:35, 19 April 10
Quote from: gerald on 21:34, 19 April 10
And one DDI-1

160x65mm

Great!
Please take also a photo from backside...
I can't find mine.
I want to show how to manipulate it to connect a 3,5" drive directly.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: gerald on 21:48, 19 April 10
Here is the back. However it has already been patched for ABBA and side switches and some tracks are not visible.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 21:53, 19 April 10
Here's a patch how to use the DDI-1 for 3,5" drives without 3" drive connected:
- Find C115 on the pcb
- Solder it's 2 contacts together with a small cable
- That's it! The DDI-1 controller takes it's required 5v now from your CPC464 instead of the floppy.
- Connect a correct jumpered 3,5" drive to your DDI-1 and have fun!
- If you want to use this modified DDI-1 also for your 3" drive, make sure, you unsolder the bridge or use a Switch instead of a bridge
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 09:32, 20 April 10
Quote from: Devilmarkus on 21:53, 19 April 10
Here's a patch how to use the DDI-1 for 3,5" drives without 3" drive connected:
- Find C115 on the pcb


W00t!!!  :o
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 10:34, 20 April 10
Quote from: Gryzor on 09:32, 20 April 10

W00t!!!  :o

Find C115
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 11:41, 20 April 10
Quote from: Devilmarkus on 21:35, 19 April 10
Great!
Please take also a photo from backside...
I can't find mine.....
It's behind you!

I don't really want to see a picture of your backside.. but I do like seeing these pictures of pcbs.. :)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: ukmarkh on 13:26, 20 April 10
Quote from: Devilmarkus on 10:34, 20 April 10
Find C115

I just wanna say it's sad, really sad that you wont be continuing with Elivra.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 13:42, 20 April 10
Quote from: ukmarkh on 13:26, 20 April 10

I just wanna say it's sad, really sad that you wont be continuing with Elivra.

probably, perhaps, not sure I will continue it one day... ;)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 17:40, 20 April 10
Hi, Gerald! Thanks for the pics, and for measuring the size of the three boards.

For everybody else: There are still plenty of boards with unknown size at http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions :-)

And, I've made a similar page for keyboards, http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Keyboard_Versions, it's also showing the differences in the BIOS character sets.

For most keyboard variants I don't know if they did ever exist - like French 464/664, for example?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Grim on 20:12, 20 April 10
Quote from: nocash on 17:40, 20 April 10
For most keyboard variants I don't know if they did ever exist - like French 464/664, for example?
The French 464 keyboard exists. For the 664, I'm quite sure it never had any variants but only the official UK keyboard.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: gerald on 21:07, 20 April 10
Hi nocash,

Some more picture for your gallery : french 6128 and 6128Plus, and as a bonus the cartridge where you can spot the part number for french ROM (41090-1)

Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 10:24, 21 April 10
Grim, was the french version really 'french'? I'd have thought it was the exact same, just with the keys repositioned and a different ROM?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Grim on 11:11, 21 April 10
You can see for yourself here (http://www.nightfallcrew.com/?p=2044). The markings on the case are all in french and it has an AZERTY keyboard (thus a different Firmware ROM too, with the corresponding charset and keymap and showing "(f1)" on the boot message).

I don't know if a baguette was bundled in the box tho :)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 11:46, 21 April 10
Frog legs, too? :D (here we go again...)

The markings on the case don't matter, I was talking about the mobo...?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 12:29, 21 April 10
> I was talking about the mobo...?
Aha. I've been wondering, too, what you could have meant by being more french than french :-)

The new french 6128 and 6128+ pics are fine! And french system cart, too (put it on the Burnin' Rubber page).

Funny, judging from the amount of keyboard photos, the the normal english version was rarer than the french/spanish/danish/german versions, maybe english cpcs ARE rare, due to Sinclair ZXs being more popular in england. Though the english 464 can't have been less popular than the spanish 472 :-) so I guess it's just because nobody ever thought about taking photos of the normal/boring english models.

Btw. how many keyboard versions are there (mechanically). I know that there was the old 464 keyboard with PCB, and the newer one with membrane... and a lot of people seem to be speaking about 464s with "flat keys". What is that? Is it a third variant? Or is just another term for the membrane version?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 12:44, 21 April 10
As far as I remember, there are some earlier CPC models which had taller keys than newer models.


The flat key models are the newer ones.


I have one of those CPC464 with taller keys. The picture of the PCB is in the boards article under the "PT NO Z70100, MC0001A, Copyright 1983" name.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 13:25, 21 April 10
Okay, that's a 464 version 1 mainboard (c) 1983 - which actually has non-membrane keyboard.

Membrane keyboards were invented with 464 version 2 mainboards (c) 1984. Are that the "flat" keyboards?

Ie. were they invented around 1984? Or did the "flat" keys came much later, like in 1988 cost-down versions or so?

Would be nice to see some photos that show difference between "flat" and "tall" keys!
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 13:46, 21 April 10
Did the 6128 ever have taller keys? My old 464 (Version 2?) had the tall keys, but I never remember the 6128 ever having these, I think they were lower keys from the very start.

Regarding the Keyboard layout page you've started: Do you have all the pictures, but haven't uploaded them yet, or are the missing pictures really missing still. I can upload pictures of the English 464 (Version 2 I think) and a German 6128 too if needed.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 14:10, 21 April 10
Quote from: Bryce on 13:46, 21 April 10
Did the 6128 ever have taller keys? My old 464 (Version 2?) had the tall keys, but I never remember the 6128 ever having these, I think they were lower keys from the very start.

Regarding the Keyboard layout page you've started: Do you have all the pictures, but haven't uploaded them yet, or are the missing pictures really missing still. I can upload pictures of the English 464 (Version 2 I think) and a German 6128 too if needed.

Bryce.
The 664 has the taller keys, but true about 6128. I never saw one with tall keys.

Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 14:48, 21 April 10
The missing pictures are really missing. Uploads would be welcome!
The 664 has tall keys, too? And 664 never had keyboard PCB, only membrane keyboard.
Then there seem to be really three different types.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 14:56, 21 April 10
I take pics from my cpcs,sorry by the quality the photos is taken with psp go gamera :) .

All cpc are spanish,exept de 464 with large mainboard(u.k).

I dont know how adjunt files.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=UY1IONUE (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=UY1IONUE)

Mothertboards:
464 MC0044D(4010 gate array)Many sockets and memory made by mme.

6128 cotsdown MC0100A
6128 plus MC0122B
464(u,k)MC0002C.
6128 plus burning rubber cartridge.Amstrad   Spain were stingy,Save money in  painting.


Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 15:00, 21 April 10
@Dragon: if you don't use the quick-reply box at the bottom of the page, but instead click on the "reply" button, you'll get a form with an Attachment field... very easy :)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 15:03, 21 April 10
Quote from: Gryzor on 15:00, 21 April 10
@Dragon: if you don't use the quick-reply box at the bottom of the page, but instead click on the "reply" button, you'll get a form with an Attachment field... very easy :)

@Gryzor: if you don't use the quick-reply box at the bottom of the page, but instead follow the megaupload-link, you would see that the file has 2,4mb ;)
(ok ok, was a bad one)

I think for quickly storing things it's ok to post external links:
- saves wiki bandwidth ;)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 15:08, 21 April 10
Yeah, I didn't even follow the link because MU is blocked here at work. I gave the instructions because he said he didn't know how to :)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 15:28, 21 April 10
Changing attachments settings.
Here are the photos:
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 15:34, 21 April 10
QuoteChanging attachments settings.

Thanks :).
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 16:03, 21 April 10
Hmmm, the psp go camera really doesn't seem to have best quality :-/
The pic showing the spanish system cartridge pcb is nice.
Didn't knew that there were carts without text layer!
And it's the first picture showing the spanish part number on the sticker.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 16:09, 21 April 10
Do not worry.I taketh new photos with a very good  digital camera.

Right now the PSP is all I have on hand.   :)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 16:15, 21 April 10
Yipieh. Don't forget to check the board size, X x Y mm! Of your collection, medium sized 464, and cost-down 6128 sizes are still missing on the mainboard page.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 10:48, 22 April 10
Flat keys again. They are still mystifying me. On grimware.org, all cpc464 mainboards (except the original version with PCB keyboard) are listed to have flat keys - that would mean all membrane keyboards were flat.
That'd also include the 664, which was membrane only, and thus should have those flat keys, too.
Unless later versions had flatter than flat keys?
Or, maybe it's all nonsense, and all keyboards looked exactly the same :-)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 11:49, 22 April 10
That's easy to see:
Old 464 boards have 1 longer keyboard connector.
They have large keys.
Later this connector has been replaced by the connectors we know from CPC 6128 with membraned cables (Don't know the right expression for that)
These use the flat keys.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Grim on 16:14, 22 April 10
Quote from: nocash on 13:25, 21 April 10Would be nice to see some photos that show difference between "flat" and "tall" keys!

Here is one, from left to right:
- CPC 464 "big ESC key" (old mechanical keyboard with wire cable)
- CPC 464 "flat ESC key" (new keyboard with a ribbon cable)
- CPC 6128 "ESC key"

Note that the flat keys of the CPC 464 can also be put on a CPC 6128 keyboard. They are also "flatter" than the CPC 6128 keys too (not by much, 1mm I would say).
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 00:46, 23 April 10
Hi Grim! Nice picture, many thanks! Now even I can see the difference. Added the pic on the keyboard page, a bit modified, with the text included in the image.

Something else. I have just discovered a hidden option that makes your CPC becoming a wireless microcomputer, and it's very simple to do that: Just shorten LK2 and LK1.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 15:33, 23 April 10
Okay, okay, that was silly. I was just amazed by the Wireless "W" in the AWA brand name. Some info on awa is collected here, http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Awa though the funniest LK setting is Triumph - http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Triumph - I'd doubt that Amstrad seriously planned to do that partnership :-)

Searched and found a few more mainboard and keyboard pictures. Whatever I tried, I couldn't find photos of english 6128 and 6128+, only german, spanish, french, australian, and danish ones. Could it be possible that the 128K models have never been sold in england?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 15:52, 23 April 10
Quote from: nocash on 15:33, 23 April 10
Okay, okay, that was silly. I was just amazed by the Wireless "W" in the AWA brand name. Some info on awa is collected here, http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Awa (http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Awa) though the funniest LK setting is Triumph - http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Triumph (http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Triumph) - I'd doubt that Amstrad seriously planned to do that partnership :-)

Searched and found a few more mainboard and keyboard pictures. Whatever I tried, I couldn't find photos of english 6128 and 6128+, only german, spanish, french, australian, and danish ones. Could it be possible that the 128K models have never been sold in england?
you are funny. my first cpc was a cpc6128.
I bought it here in the uk.

I also have an english 6128+.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 15:55, 23 April 10
Quote from: nocash on 15:33, 23 April 10
Okay, okay, that was silly. I was just amazed by the Wireless "W" in the AWA brand name. Some info on awa is collected here, http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Awa (http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Awa) though the funniest LK setting is Triumph - http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Triumph (http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Triumph) - I'd doubt that Amstrad seriously planned to do that partnership :-)

Searched and found a few more mainboard and keyboard pictures. Whatever I tried, I couldn't find photos of english 6128 and 6128+, only german, spanish, french, australian, and danish ones. Could it be possible that the 128K models have never been sold in england?
I am sure that partnership would have been good.. but I looked for "Triumph electronics" and found a company in the US...
so ......
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 16:03, 23 April 10
Hi Nocash,
          it's not all that important, but the picture of the Keyboard Membrane seems to have been  taken upside-down, the spacebar is at the top of the picture.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 16:14, 23 April 10
Quote from: Bryce on 16:03, 23 April 10
Hi Nocash,
          it's not all that important, but the picture of the Keyboard Membrane seems to have been  taken upside-down, the spacebar is at the top of the picture.

Bryce.
ok, ok you got me. Yeah it's a keyboard membrane from one of my old broken keyboards which I don't have anymore.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 16:21, 23 April 10
Nay, the US company is more unlikely than underwear. It seems to be of newer date, from their about us page: "Triumph Electronics incorporated in 2007"... the page also says "We stand out from the crowd by our professionalism" though they don't yet seem to have figured out how to make html pages. I tried three browsers, but none could display the "about us" properly :-)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 16:27, 23 April 10
Okay, great to know that there are english 128K models. Would have been a surprise if they didn't exist. But it's funny that they never made it into internet. Maybe... people don't have digital cameras in england? :-)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: gerald on 20:09, 23 April 10
French  CPC464 qwerty
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 09:33, 24 April 10
French with a QWERTY keyboard? Wtf???
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 16:12, 24 April 10
Pretty picture. Thanks, Gerald!

> French with a QWERTY keyboard? Wtf???
Yes, aside from the qwerty-464, there's also a qwerty-664 on the keyboard page. They have french text "Amstrad Ordinateur Personnel Couleur" and more french text on the tape/disc drive.

Looks as if amstrad began early to make "custom" french models. The AZERTY keyboards were invented later, probably around 1986 (?) juding from the french ROM part number, AZERTY came a while after spain got the N key due to spanish laws in late 1985.

Based on that dates, french QWERTY-6128 could have been available for a short time, too. If it did exist, then it'd be the only french photo that is still missing... Did somebody ever see a french 6128 with QWERTY keyboard?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Grim on 17:13, 24 April 10
Can't remember about the french CPC 6128 QWERTY, it's becoming very confusing with all these variants. I will have a look around if I can spot one.

Also, I stumbled upon this picture a while ago on some collector or auctions website, I can't remember either (hmm... getting old, damn!). There was something odd with the CPC keyboard... Probably a very limited and rare edition :)

(http://www.grimware.org/depotware/awerty.jpg)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 17:44, 24 April 10
> it's becoming very confusing with all these variants.
Yipieh, confusion. I just figured out that there three different 464 keyboards (mechanically).

  1st with etched PCB
  2nd with single Foil (similar as used in 664, but maybe slightly rearranged cable)
  3rd with two Foils (similar as used in 6128, but rearranged cursor keys)

As far as I understand, only the 3rd version is a real "membrane" keyboard, and only that version has "flat" keys.

1st and 2nd are probably almost the same concerning functionality, only made of different materials (PCB+Wires vs Foil+Metalplate), and both having "tall" keys. That also explain why 664 had tall keys despite of being using a foil :-)

PS. Hard to see what makes the CPC special on that photo... something written on the FDD drive?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Grim on 18:03, 24 April 10
I always thought the 664 keyboard was some sort of lousy membrane prototype (few 664 keyboard are still working properly, dunno if it's also the case with this type of keyboard on the 464 too) before they got it right for the 6128 :)

Quote from: nocash on 17:44, 24 April 10
PS. Hard to see what makes the CPC special on that photo... something written on the FDD drive?
It shows an AWERTY keyboard :)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 18:38, 24 April 10
> I always thought the 664 keyboard was some sort of lousy
> membrane prototype (few 664 keyboard are still working
Yup, they needed repair after a few years. And though of them as "membrane" too. But since there is only one foil (which doesn't move)... now I'd say that it isn't a "membrane" (where the upper foil gets pushed down).

>  before they got it right for the 6128 :)
Did they? My 6128 has plenty dead keys. So I said fuck-the-membrane and built a new keyboard, using a rewired PC keyboard with real metal switches. But maybe the 6128 were just dirty, not broken :-)

> It shows an AWERTY keyboard :)
Oops. Strange. The other details are strange, too. Looks like french on FDD, but english keys with non-shifted numbers and without accented letters. I wonder if amstrad ever made an AWERTY bios rom :-) can that be real? Maybe somebody just swapped the Q and A keys.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 19:15, 24 April 10
I think the keyboard is a home-brewed one.
I don't think, Amstrad produced French keyboards with only difference were A and Q keys.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 22:03, 24 April 10
Yeah, probably it's homebrew. Surprisingly there are around 2000 google hits when searching for "awerty"+keyboard. But I guess most are unwanted typos. The only page where it seemed to be intentional was one saying that "République Démocratique du Congo" used "défaut (awerty)" in 2007, and switched to "(azerty)" in 2009. Dunno if that webpage means that all typewriters and computers in congo used awerty until that date. Anyways, probably that isn't CPC related - unless the photo showed a homebrew congo mod :-)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 23:16, 24 April 10
Just noticed, the french keyboard and french charset ROM don't have a "|" symbol? Though the french CPC Plus user manual says to press shift+@ to enter RSX commands like "|CPM" but judging from the charset, one would have to type "ùCPM" (???)
Hmmmm, seems to be so. There are a couple of webpages mentioning "ùCPM", pretty strange idea to remove "|" from the charset :-)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: JMD on 00:30, 25 April 10
Hello nocash,

I just posted on cpc wiki a pictutre of my CPC6128 QWERTY.
As I remember, first serie of french 6128 was qwerty and it works exactly as UK ones with | caracters.
The text on KB was in french (and not a sticker on drive).
This one is just the same I had younger.

The serial of mine is 219910 K32-5X

Note : I made quickly the picture so I can do better if you want
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Grim on 00:33, 25 April 10
About the AWERTY CPC keyboard, I think the Q and A keys were just swapped too. No way this thing could possibly exist otherwise! There's already enough variants! :)

Quote from: nocash on 23:16, 24 April 10Just noticed, the french keyboard and french charset ROM don't have a "|" symbol?
Yeah, that's the most annoying and stupid change they made to the French charset. Many software manuals or mags were referring to |CPM, |USER,5 and all that RSXs stuff with the pipe symbol that was not on the French keyboard! Very confusing (esp. if you had never read the CPC User Manual before). On a side note, it also screws up all attempt at ASCII Art (along with the missing backslash \ too).
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 01:52, 25 April 10
Just removed the following dummy entries from http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Keyboard_Versions
  french 664 with AZERTY
  german 664 with post-schneider logo
  spanish 664 with Ñ key
  danish 664 with Æ,Ø,Å keys
assuming that the 664 was discontinued before local keyboards were invented.

If the english 6128/6128+ don't show up soon, I guess they should be removed, too :-) to me, it looks like a myth that english users ever had 128K models :-) Kevin, are you sure you haven't dreamt it? Maybe you have gray-imported german schneider models? They have "english" qwerty keyboard, too.

Apropos german models. Did somebody ever see german CPCs after the amstrad-schneider partnership ended in 1988? I have no clue how they looked like - still with german text on 6128 disk drive and grey keys on 464 keyboard - or were they just normal english models?

PS. JMD, thanks, for confirming the french 6128 qwerty! And thanks for the photo, looks perfect!
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 11:09, 25 April 10
I added the German Amstrad CPC 6128 today.
http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Keyboard_Versions#German
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 18:11, 25 April 10
> I added the German Amstrad CPC 6128 today.
Great, thanks! Now the only missing pictures should be
- German 464 with amstrad logo
- Danish 464 with danish keys
and, of course, those ominous english 128K models.

PS. I think I have solved the riddle about the Triumph brandname in the CPC BIOS rom! Most likely, it dates back to the german typewriter manufacturer, http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Triumph imagine having the triumph logo on the CPC keyboard :-)
(http://cpcwiki.eu/imgs/f/f0/Triumph-typewriter-logo.png)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 21:11, 25 April 10
I still don't get what's ominous or mysterious about the UK 128k models? I can say for sure that these are the ones that were sold in Greece - and therefore quite a few are available...
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 21:40, 25 April 10
Yeah, probably the 128K UK models do exist... at least outside UK, like in greece :-) anyways concerning photos in internet they really do not exist - do what you want, you won't find any pictures of them - only hundreds of pics with spanish/french/german 6128 & spanish/french 6128+ models.

Good that you mention greece models. I've been wondering if there were further localized versions in greece, italy, belgium, usa, and wherever else CPCs were sold? Even if the keyboards were english, the text on the case and tape/disc drive may have been translated (?)

Whoops, deepfb just told me that spanish 6128 (and maybe also 464/664) were localized in that fashion before the 472 and Ñ key were invented. So that model(s) are still missing on http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Keyboard_Versions, too.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 23:37, 25 April 10
Quote from: nocash on 21:40, 25 April 10
Yeah, probably the 128K UK models do exist... at least outside UK, like in greece :-) anyways concerning photos in internet they really do not exist - do what you want, you won't find any pictures of them - only hundreds of pics with spanish/french/german 6128 & spanish/french 6128+ models.
I have an English CPC464, CPC664, CPC6128, 464+ and 6128+, so are they worth a lot of money because the pictures are not on the internet and they should not exist?  :P
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 23:50, 25 April 10
I bet so. Quite possible that you have the only two existing english 128K models :-)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 11:40, 26 April 10
Quote from: nocash on 23:50, 25 April 10
I bet so. Quite possible that you have the only two existing english 128K models :-)
Really I know you are joking with us and you know 100% that 128k cpc's existed in the uk.  ;D
I am sure you are sitting and laughing at your computer and having fun.  ;D

But I think maybe your use of smileys needs some practice  ;)

EDIT: A google images search shows me lots of english cpc6128's, but most of the pictures are not good enough for wiki.

http://www.computermuseum.li/Testpage/Amstrad-cpc6128.jpg
http://koti.mbnet.fi/~oju/retro/CPC6128.jpg
http://bilgisayarlarim.com/Amstrad/CPC6128/CPC6128_08.jpg
http://www.retrotrader.com/catalog/images/retroaaa%20006.jpg
http://www.jonathanen.com/pages/Computers/Amstrad/CPC6128/cpc6128setup.jpg
http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/pictures/amstrad-cpc6128-large.jpg


Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 12:25, 26 April 10
Whew! First time I've seen a english 6128. Most pics really aren't too good quality. But the http://bilgisayarlarim.com/Amstrad/CPC6128/CPC6128_08.jpg picture shows that it seems to have english 'key numbers' text on it.

Now I've seen how it looks like... there are further differences: Upper-case DISC DRIVE in upper-right (german has Disc Drive) and CPC6128 in lower-right (german has 128K Colour Personal Computer in that place).

Great, that should help to identify english 6128 models even if they are shown only in lowres thumbnail form. Won't work for the 6128+ unfortunately since the english/spanish/french Plus models look nearly identical.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Grim on 16:21, 26 April 10
Not sure if this is the right thread to post that, but anyway:
About the brand Saisho (http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Saisho) in the Amstrad Firmware, according to an interview (http://amstrad.cpc.free.fr/article.php?sid=26) with Cliff Lawson, it was in fact a sub-brand owned by Dixons, the famous UK retailer.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 16:43, 26 April 10
Yup, read that interview, too. Mmmmmh, at the moment, the Saisho pages "Saisho is an own brand formerly used by Dixons stores" should that be rephrased (any idea how best)? It's still a bit unsorted, just started to collect info.

Uh, is there a problem with the Triumph page, http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Triumph ?
Just asking because somebody deleted most of the page, both the "fun" part, and and "serious" part with LK Link references (I've undone the delete), and aside from triumph adler, only the side-note on the 2007 company remained. And the fun part wasn't just fun - it also pointed out that there are many different companies using Triumph as brand name. Anyways, if it that information shall be removed from cpcwiki, I can put it on my own webpage.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 18:06, 26 April 10
@Grim: I bet the japanese-sounding name had lots to do with some "let's-do-some-Japanese-marketing" idea :D

@nocash: yes, there still is a problem with the Triumph page. The problem is that we all know there's no way the underwear or the motorcycle manufacturer entered the electronics arena, so it makes no sense to mention them. But even if you insist on mentioning them, there's still no point in showing boobage or motorcycles. You can just do that - mention them.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 18:24, 26 April 10
Quote from: Gryzor on 18:06, 26 April 10
@nocash: yes, there still is a problem with the Triumph page. The problem is that we all know there's no way the underwear or the motorcycle manufacturer entered the electronics arena, so it makes no sense to mention them. But even if you insist on mentioning them, there's still no point in showing boobage or motorcycles. You can just do that - mention them.

I totally agree here with Gryzor.
That was the reason why I removed these things from Triumph page...
I am sure, when we use "g**gle" we will also find hundred results for "Orion" (e.g. german sex-toys brand "Orion") But do we post it in a "Orion" page?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 18:48, 26 April 10
> yes, there still is a problem with the Triumph page.
I just liked how the pictures are arranged :-(

> The problem is that we all know there's no way the underwear
> or the motorcycle manufacturer entered the electronics arena
Maybe that's why the LK setting was never used :-)

> so it makes no sense to mention them.
Well, the idea there was that people coming to that page are likely wondering "what the hell is triumph? is that electronic brand name at all?" So showing that it isn't (only) electronic makes sense to me. Asides it's interesting that so many companies are using the same brand name. I think it's because the companies were founded more than hundred years ago. Like nowadays you couldn't easily found a company that makes "small soft chewing gums", and call it Microsoft Gums.

> there's still no point in showing boobage or motorcycles.
Come on, the pics are carefully choosen, showing the different more popular (and more exotic) company logos, and the bras - it's an underwear manufacturer, so of course they have bras in their logo/banner. No porn or sexism in that, it doesn't even show panties. And, if the triumph-adler relation is correct, I don't see why the typewriter picture was deleted. It's not a computer, of course, but wasting a few kilobytes for historic background, is that wrong?

---

PS. finally found a piczure of a CPC 6128 plus. Came accross it while searching for german schneider 6128 with upper case text on the disc drive.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 18:56, 26 April 10
No, Orion is much clearer. As brand name it seems to be only used by the japanese company. I've also found it mentioned being used as brand name by Tungsram (hungary), but I would assume that this could be an "official" partnership between the japanese and hungrarian company. And Orion is also mentioned in the above interview as "far east" company, that probably means japan. And finally, Amstrad *has* worked with Orion. No way that the cathode ray tubes were manufactured by a "german sex-toys brand" as you suggested :-)

EDIT: The only german-relation I could find was ISP KG being the german Orion distributor (from 1975 up to today). That might also explain the "Isp" in the BIOS ROM. Though as far as I know ISP only sells Orion-branded products, and never (?) rebadged them as ISP products.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 18:57, 26 April 10
Quote from: nocash on 18:48, 26 April 10

I just liked how the pictures are arranged :-(
...
...
but wasting a few kilobytes for historic background, is that wrong?


There's a problem with all that, though I'm not going to argue with your point: it's got nothing to do with the CPC...
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 19:03, 26 April 10
What? No I am unsure... what was my point? EDIT: It's ALL a problem? :-(
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 19:19, 26 April 10
I think the brand name "Triumph" was designed to be used in US for importing CPC's there.
Later then, probably the US concern denied or Amstrad cancelled the co-operation with them.
(Don't forget: the ROMs contain 9!!! brand names!)
We know:
- Awa has been used in Australia
- Schneider in Germany (And I think in the Netherlands, too)
- Amstrad in all other European states

So, where had the other names been used?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 19:34, 26 April 10
> I think the brand name "Triumph" was designed
> to be used in US for importing CPC's there.
Errr. The US company was founded in 2007. Didn't you read that part? I just mentioned so that people will NOT get trapped... but didn't help as it seems :-) Or do you mean there was another/earlier US company with same name??

> (Don't forget: the ROMs contain 9!!! brand names!)
Whoops, I always thought the 3bit value allowed only 8 names.

> Awa has been used in Australia
Thank you, I was afraid that you'd want to delete that page, too.

> So, where had the other names been used?
As far as I know, they haven't been ever used (*) but netherless it'd be CPC-related to mention that amstrad planned to use them for optional partnerships with this or that company.

(*) Only exception would be Solavox. It seems that Indescomp (planned to) export Solavox'es to USA, but did then sell them in spain. For the most confusion Solavox seems to be a UK brand, so it <should> have no relation to USA nor spain :-)
Does somebody know more about Solavox, or about americanCPCs?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 19:35, 26 April 10
Little no$xmas present for the wiki:
(Maybe you want to use them to setup a "branding names" site in the Wiki)

The ninth name was "Arnold" and is not selectable because the ROM adds + 1 to the selected value (from LK bridges)
Would be cool to get a ROM file of the CPC prototype!
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 19:49, 26 April 10
> (Maybe you want to use them to setup a "branding names" site in the Wiki)
No, thanks, not really. But would be a good idea in general. At the moment the brand names are summarized (and sorts of hidden) somewhere in the middle of the 8255 page (=PPI chip). So go ahead, make that page yourself!
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 19:50, 26 April 10
Quote from: nocash on 19:49, 26 April 10
So go ahead, make that page yourself!

My wiki pages look like crap ;) :police:
You know the wiki syntax better than me.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 20:05, 26 April 10
Okay, but please don't delete it if you don't like it.
Should it be "Brand Names" or "Branding Names" or just "LK1 LK2 LK3"? Latter one would be clearest, so nobody mis-uses it for other brand-names (like dk'tronics). Uh, except Indescomp & Patisonic should be probably mentioned on that page, too.

NB. best way to learn the cpcwiki syntax is to start writing some text, and if it doesn't look as desired: Click EDIT on another page that has the desired formatting. Of course without editing that page, just to view its source code.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 20:08, 26 April 10
Quote from: nocash on 20:05, 26 April 10
Okay, but please don't delete it if you don't like it.
I only deleted the top part of your "Triumph" page because it's really @ the wrong place here ;)

QuoteShould it be "Brand Names" or "Branding Names" or just "LK1 LK2 LK3"? Latter one would be clearest, so nobody mis-uses it for other brand-names (like dk'tronics). Uh, except Indescomp & Patisonic should be probably mentioned on that page, too.
That's why I asked somewhere else for native English speaking people to give the "most properly" respond...

QuoteNB. best way to learn the cpcwiki syntax is to start writing some text, and if it doesn't look as desired: Click EDIT on another page that has the desired formatting. Of course without editing that page, just to view its source code.

Yeah I know ;)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 20:40, 26 April 10
It should be "Brand Names" :)

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Grim on 07:54, 27 April 10
Quote from: Gryzor on 18:06, 26 April 10
@Grim: I bet the japanese-sounding name had lots to do with some "let's-do-some-Japanese-marketing" idea :D
Yep, that was exactly their idea (according to Cliff Lawson). But in the end, it looks like that most of these brand names were never used actually.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 12:09, 27 April 10
I've got some high-res pics at home - but I think I have already uploaded them to the wiki.

The Greek ones were totally UK ones, nothing was customised.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 16:29, 27 April 10
I think some pics in the gallery are from you. Though I couldn't find an english 6128 in there. Do you have photos of that one, too? If the greek one looks like the english one, then we could badge it as "english" model :-)
Otherwise, I've found that the http://bilgisayarlarim.com/Amstrad/CPC6128/ also has slightly better (non-diagonal) picture of an english 6128 (or maybe it's greek, too). The pic isn't super-good though, at least the KEY NUMBERS text is barely visible.
Aside from that, http://bilgisayarlarim.com/Amstrad/ has some really good pics, showing the interiors of different 464's and of the GX4000.

Btw. for http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions, the most-wanted missing picture would be a Spanish GX4000 Mainboard (ie. one without TV modulator). Does somebody have that board?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: yoshi.doshi on 18:19, 27 April 10
Hello ,, if it is benfeficial i could take some pictures of my english ( ;) ) 6128,, external and internal,, its in good nick.

I have access to a cannon g9 so should be adequate. Its the later released 6128 mind ( changed logo) with cheaper eme 156 drive ie white plastic belt wheel etc!! ~Which photos in particular would benefit the wiki???


I sold one and gave away my first release 6128's!!

Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 19:44, 27 April 10
Fantastic! The maybe most beneficial picture would be simply one like these,  http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Keyboard_Versions. Just the english 6128 keyboard. For some strange reason nearly nobody ever seems to have photographed it.

I think, I've never seen a white belt or wheel. What is that? Anyways it sounds interesting, and the http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Photo_Gallery doesn't yet show such details. Oh, and if you disassemble the cpc, please check if the mainboard is already listed on http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: yoshi.doshi on 03:27, 28 April 10
Quote from: nocash on 19:44, 27 April 10
Fantastic! The maybe most beneficial picture would be simply one like these,  http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Keyboard_Versions (http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Keyboard_Versions).
I think, I've never seen a white belt or wheel. What is that? Anyways it sounds interesting, and the http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Photo_Gallery (http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Photo_Gallery) doesn't yet show such details. Oh, and if you disassemble the cpc, please check if the mainboard is already listed on http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions (http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions)

Ok i'll get the photo done in the next day or two. IT does seem a bit freaky if there isn't one quality uk 6128 photo on the web. 

NOt sure on the 6128's pcb number. its been a while since i looked inside it  but it needed a replacement drive last year as i had a mishap with its original and removed its stepper motor thinking it would be easy to replace but i found out that had not been the wisest thing to do!!

thankfully i had a spare sitting inside an unused ddi that was was exactly the same model and was only a month apart so no harm done.

http://tinypic.com/1r53iudi (http://tinypic.com/1r53iudi)

on the older cpc drives the beltwheel is metal (sorry got no pic to compare for you ). ON this its white plastic (see above link),, in one way its much easier to replace the belt on this as its more exposed than most ddi/cpc drives ive come across but i found it much harder to remove the sticky tar (belt) it had.

Oh i did notice whilst i was looking at the wiki mainboards that i have a slight variant 464 pcb build although its basically covered on the wiki ie. by  Board pt no Z70374, MC0044B (the pics not great though) but you should still be able to see its been built  up differently (as on the pic z70375, mc0044d)
    so a bit of a crossover example.     There was a web page which showed several different cpc drives  (in relation to the changing of their belts) but i can't find it anymore.               




Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: yoshi.doshi on 16:12, 28 April 10
ok ive put a decent photo up on the link hopefully. I must confess i don't have much experience of putting things up on the wiki. Please feel free to take anything worthy to update the site. The lights been so crap in stoke today. At a later stage i'll take a pic of the internals but the pcb is definetely listed.

I noticed in the "Synthesizer, sampler and music related section" there is no reference to the cheetah cpc mini interface for the cpc 464 to connect to a mk5 cheetah controller keyboard.

I have a decent boxed complete example with an unboxed cheetah MK5v keyboard.
 
 
 

 
 
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Ygdrazil on 16:19, 28 April 10
Great!

I have only heard of this device...

Pictures and more stuff would be awsome!

/Ygdrazil

Quote from: yoshi.doshi on 16:12, 28 April 10
ok ive put a decent photo up on the link hopefully. I must confess i don't have much experience of putting things up on the wiki. Please feel free to take anything worthy to update the site. The lights been so crap in stoke today. At a later stage i'll take a pic of the internals but the pcb is definetely listed.

I noticed in the "Synthesizer, sampler and music related section" there is no reference to the cheetah cpc mini interface for the cpc 464 to connect to a mk5 cheetah controller keyboard.

I have a decent boxed complete example with an unboxed cheetah MK5v keyboard.
 
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 17:53, 28 April 10
> ok ive put a decent photo up on the link
Which link? Ah, found it, the tinypic.com one. Great! Many thanks! I've cropped it a little, added it on the keyboard page, and marked it as super-rare photo. No joke there. I swear, it's a very-very rare picture. Thanks again!

> Please feel free to take anything worthy to update the site.
The disc drive pictures could be interesting. There has been a disc drive gallery somewhere around? Are there many revisions? Being more interested in digital electronics, I've never wasted a thought on that.

> At a later stage i'll take a pic of the internals but the pcb is definetely listed.
If the size of the PCB isn't listed, can you check that, too?

> there is no reference to the cheetah cpc mini interface for the
> cpc 464 to connect to a mk5 cheetah controller keyboard.
Sounds very crappy & interesting :-) do you have a scanned manual & software as tape/disc image, so one could rev-engineer how it worked?
EDIT: It's a piano-keyboard (not an external numeric keypad or so)? then maybe it isn't crappy at all.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: yoshi.doshi on 15:56, 29 April 10
 
QuoteI've cropped it a little, added it on the keyboard page, and marked it as super-rare photo. No joke there. I swear, it's a very-very rare picture. Thanks again!


HOnestly glad to help.. Its daft there wasn't. HOpefully the earlier 6128 version photos will appear. I noticed there is only one pic of  a uk 464 manual as well. I have 4 variations of that.

Quote from: nocash on 17:53, 28 April 10.


do you have a scanned manual & software as tape/disc image, so one could rev-engineer how it worked?


Ok i will make pdf of manual + take some pics of things this weekend. As for the "mini" software not able to do that. I can of course copy it onto 3"" disk and send to you for this purpose  if you'd want to do that??

I do think the software and interface is maybe cheetah specific though as i tested it through the midi out on a korg micro x and it did nothing!!

Re: drive build variations i remember where they were now. Bit of a mix ie pics of pcw and cpc

http://www.pcwking1.netfirms.com/helpage18.html#belt (http://www.pcwking1.netfirms.com/helpage18.html#belt)

Ive seen 4 of the variations myself in 6128's/ddi's . There maybe lots more??





   




Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 22:00, 29 April 10
> HOpefully the earlier 6128 version photos will appear.
Probably not. I didn't even try to add a "No Picture Exists" placeholder on the page. The other lowres 6128 picture from bilgysaralim (or so) showed one with new logo, too. The english 6128 with old logo must be so incredibly rare that the collectors won't even expose it sunlight or flashlight to take a picture!

> there is only one pic of  a uk 464 manual as well. I have 4 variations of that.
Cool, should be fine on the http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/User_Manual page. Best upload it yourself (you need another account than in the forum, then click Upload File, found in the frame menu, left side of screen, very easy) (say something if you don't figure out how to insert a link to it in the wiki page after uploading).

NB. guess that page should be rearranged a bit: The cover-galleries would be better at the bottom of that page. At the moment it's uncomfortable to use. And confusing - showing a pic of french 6128 manual and offering a download for GX4000 manual underneath of it!

> I can of course copy it onto 3"" disk and send to you for this purpose
Bit oldfashioned compared to cable transfer :-) but yes, would be fine.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 22:19, 29 April 10
What to do with the mainboard sizes (the red ???x???mm stuff) on the http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions ? At least the sizes of the 664 (biggest) and custdown-464 (smallest) boards should be sorts of interesting. Doesn't anybody have that boards at home?

If not. Some trickery would be possible. The 464 v1/v2, and the 6128 v1/v2 are having the same size, 95% sure. So if there's no better info available, I could re-used the v2 sizes for the v1 boards. Seems to be the best (only) solution...?

For the other boards. One could calculate them. If the size of the CPU is known, and the board is N times more pixels than the CPU... The maths are simple, but it's easy to get some mistakes in there, so at least somebody should verify the result.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 22:47, 29 April 10
Quick question:
Don't you have any CPCs @ home?

I will measure my 6128, 464 and 664 tomorrow.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 23:02, 29 April 10
What do think where the already measured values are from?
Don't have too many different models though, so help on other boards would be fine!

> I will measure my 6128, 464 and 664 tomorrow.
Yipieh!
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 23:04, 29 April 10
Quote from: nocash on 23:02, 29 April 10
What do think where the already measured values are from?
Don't have too many different models though, so help on other boards would be fine!

You could calculate the size:
take 1 photo,
check size of expansion port, recalculate image size and you have the sizes.

Expansion port has always the same width.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 23:36, 29 April 10
Well, that is about the same method as I suggested, isn't it?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 23:41, 29 April 10
Humm almost.
You wanted to measure CPU size.
Expansion port is a bit larger.
As you like. The result should be accurate.
You could check that with your existing hardware.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 03:28, 30 April 10
Yes, I know that. The CPU was an example. Full procedure would be longer: Use biggest known thing (expansion port, obviously) where possible, gx4000 has none, on kcc & aleste it has another (known) sizes, recurse that, then you may not want to trust the aspect ratio of the pics, and thus don't want to use expansion port in vertical direction, and you definetely won't use perspective distorted photos, only scans. And so on and so on.

The maths are basic, but in practice it's a bit more complicated, and couple of things could get wrong. I really wouldn't want to go through that procedure, or only if 1-2 people do the same for double-checking the results. Measuring the real board should be ways easier and more fail-proof. Asides: Then I wouldn't have any further work since I already measured everything I have :-) on the other hand... if somebody donates a GX4000 or CPC Plus - I'd gladly measure it's size; and do some more serious research along with it :-)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 12:00, 30 April 10
In the case of my scanned pictures, as we know they are at 300dpi, you can just do your math.


Some of them are slightly distorted because I had to scan it in two parts, but still results should be accurate enough.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 13:36, 30 April 10
> In the case of my scanned pictures, as we know they
> are at 300dpi, you can just do your math.
Good point. With other scans I've no clue if they were scanned at 300dpi, or even if so, somebody might have resized them before upload :-/

> Some of them are slightly distorted because
> I had to scan it in two parts
Ooops, I forgot about that problem.

Hmmmm, what accuracy could one expect then? It may end up as
  "Size: Probably something between 112x73 or 115x75 mm"
though maybe the accuracy is better, and varies only by +/- 0.1mm.

Currently, everybody tends to prefer doing the maths solution?
Anybody (who?) wants to verify & help doing that?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 14:14, 30 April 10
I added measurements for CPC-464 boards.
(These which I also provided a photo)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 15:33, 30 April 10
Quote from: nocash on 13:36, 30 April 10

Hmmmm, what accuracy could one expect then? It may end up as
  "Size: Probably something between 112x73 or 115x75 mm"
though maybe the accuracy is better, and varies only by +/- 0.1mm.

If you can, please do take some measurements yourself. If not, I'll take some next week from my CPC if I find the time.

In the meanwhile, and until exact measurements are provided something like "~YYYxZZZ" is good enough, and please don't take this any further. The irony is not appreciated.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 17:17, 30 April 10
No irony. I really-really-really (honestly) don't know how accurate the results would be.
I guess one could calculate that, too :-) Well, yes, that's been said with some irony in it.

EDIT: Just read the message again. And you are right, I DID had some irony in mind when writing it. I was totally puzzled when markus (being the accuracy fanatic here) favoured the calculation method, which seemed more inaccurate to me.
To be fair: I also tried to UNDO my own irony by suggesting that I may have been wrong: in fact, 300dpi could be BETTER than measuring boards by hand.

---

I would very much prefer measuring the real boards, too. Last 3-5 times I asked if somebody could help doing that, there wasn't too much response :-( except 2-3 people did measure there boards, thanks again :-)  More measures would be very welcome!
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Terje_Norway on 22:33, 01 May 10
Hi,
Time for the next update on CPC boards. This time I'll go for my GX4000 machines.


GX4000   -   Measures 205 mm x 150 mm (Same size on all three boards)
Serial no. 735-0919698                2700-017P-3   MC0123B [5]  K3      MFR  B
Serial no. 735-0958752                2700-017P-4   MC0123C [6]  K1      MFR  C
Serial no. 735-0959167                2700-017P-4   MC0123C [6]  K2      MFR  C
 
There are several differences between revision B and C 
1.) Have a look just below the SCART connection.
-    R153 is present in Rev B. NOT present in Rev C.
2.) Between Z80A and AY38912/P there are huge differences. 
-    On Rev B You'll find NR2, C2, R1 & R2
-    On Rev C You'll find R135-R142, C2  R1 & R2
3.) Look just below the RGB monitor connection.
-    The following components have both different size, and the location on the board. (Not moved all to long, but different location anyway)
-    D180, C32 & R181
Both point 2.) and 3.) confirms that we are talking about TWO DIFFERENT boards. Not the biggest differences I have to admit, but still different ! ! !


So what "crazy" theory do I have this time  ;)
Well, it is like this.
1.) The board number is MC123 ! !. The number below could mean revision number. In my case Rev B and C
2.) The number below could mean the PCB number. In my case PCB number 5 and 6
     I have also checked ONE 464plus and that number is 7. Perhaps it means number of CPC plus board ? ?
3.) The K numbers. I'd guess it is an indication of production within the different PCB numbers. If You have a look at the top of this posting, You'll find both serial number and K number. The serial numbers confirms my theory ! !
If You have a look at the following PCB, that one is newer than mine (I think). Could we have the serial number for that machine ? ?


http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:GX_4000_MC0123C_K4_bilgisayarlarim_736001086319_MA.jpg


What do You think ? ? Is my theory only rubbish, or am I into something.


Yours


Terje Grind
Norway
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 23:42, 01 May 10
> GX4000   -   Measures 205 mm x 150 mm
Many thanks! One more missing detail resolved.

> Have a look just below the SCART connection.
> R153 is present in Rev B. NOT present in Rev C.
But, how having a look at Rev B when there's no photo??? Upload one, please-please!

The details on the differences are cool! Most are sounding just like small re-arrangements, but they are interesting anyways. I wonder what the removed R153 means to the schematic, http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:Edited_GX4000_RGB_Power_Schematic.gif ... does it mean SCART pin 8 is left unconnected in Rev C, or does pin 8 go directly to 10V. Well, might be a silly question, since I could just look on the scans/photos, and eventually see that :-)

> So what "crazy" theory do I have this time  ;)
Oh, no! :-)

I think the FULL board number is "x7nnnnn MCnnnnX", both parts are important. There are some examples where components where added/removed/rearranged and where only the Z7nnnn or only MCnnnn changed.

Only the ending X in MCnnnnX seems to be unimportant (means that only the text layer changed, not the components on the board). On your GX boards the "17P-3" and "17P-4" would indicated changes, and I think the ending X in "123X" seems to be not so important.

And the other numbers [5] K3 and Serial no 735... I am not too sure if one can reconstruct that numbering system (and if doing that would make too much sense). You may need to get hold of thousands of CPCs (and whatever other amstrad hardware like DDI-1 and MP2) to get enough data to see how it was used. EDIT: And probably Amstrad got their own numbering system messed up in some ways, accidently putting wrong serial no's on some computers, then understanding it would be like fighting windmills :-)

The bilgisayarlarim gx4000 pic comes from http://bilgisayarlarim.com/Amstrad/ the picture series do also show the serial no of two gx's and some other amstrad's. Btw. does somebody know who is running that site (couldn't find a contact address on it)? The pics on that page are really nice, showing love in detail.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Terje_Norway on 01:46, 02 May 10
Hi,


First off all. I have tried to take a few pictures of the different GX4000 boards. Unfortunately the quality of my 6-7 years old digital camera, is so bad that the pictures is more or less useless. I'll have a look at it again tomorrow. Previously I have used the scanner on my HP Officejet Pro L7590 printer. The result could be useful.


Now, lets have a look at the 464plus and the 6128plus computers.


6128plus
Serial no. 531-0754346              2700-016P-3    MC0122D [9]  no K     MFR B   (French keyboard)
Serial no. 531-0760453              2700-016P-3    MC0122C [7]  no K     MFR B   (Spanish keyboard)


464plus
Serial no. 531-0782924             2700-016P-3    MC0122B   [6] no K     MFR A   (Spanish keyboard)
Serial no. (only a loose board)   2700-016P-3    MC0122C  [7] no K                  (Bought from the UK)


Let's have a look at my machines.
464plus
The boards looks to be more or less identical, even if the they are 122B [6] and 122C [7]. Anyway, I have found TWO minor differences.
1.) One is concerning IC16.
- On 122C it is 74Ls27N
- On 122B it is PC74HCT02P. There are also two resistors. One between leg 2-8 and between 3-4.
- Further more there are two extra lanes with corresponding holes, neither of theme are used.
2.) Second difference is above the IC15
- On 122B : Diode between R70 and R71
- On 122C : Diode goes between R71 and R72.


See link below
http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/e/e4/Gerald_CPC6128Plus_1990_2700-016P-3_MC0122C.jpg


6128plus
Same problem here. Having a hard time finding differences, but there are a few minor changes.
1.) Difference above IC15
- On 122C : Diode goes between R71 and R72
- On 122D : New layout in this area. D29 and D30 replaces above connection. Also new location on the two black leads. Now both are marked as A and B (Original labeling  :) ) Also more text on the board.


See link below
http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/6/66/CPC464Plus_MC0122D_NightfallCrew.jpg


What can we make up of that ! !


Well to be honest I haven't got a clue. All the boards are 2700-016P-3, which could mean they are the same. The problem is that doesn't make up, since there are several minor changes. Perhaps the magical word is minor. The changes are so small that they are perhaps just adjustments. 
As for the number behind MC0122x, perhaps that could be batch number for the PCBs ? ?


That has to be it for tonight


Yours


Terje Grind
Norway

Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 01:54, 02 May 10
Quote from: nocash on 23:42, 01 May 10
The bilgisayarlarim gx4000 pic comes from http://bilgisayarlarim.com/Amstrad/ (http://bilgisayarlarim.com/Amstrad/) the picture series do also show the serial no of two gx's and some other amstrad's. Btw. does somebody know who is running that site (couldn't find a contact address on it)? The pics on that page are really nice, showing love in detail.

This gave me the idea to compare my 3d model to some of their photos:

http://cpc-live.com/CPC464_1.jpg
http://cpc-live.com/CPC464_1.png
http://cpc-live.com/CPC464_2.jpg
http://cpc-live.com/CPC464_2.png
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Terje_Norway on 02:34, 02 May 10
Hi,


OK I got a bit bored, so I opened another bunch of CPCs. Now I got 13 machines laying opened  ;D  
This time I have only measures my CPC464 and CPC664 boards.


They are as following :
CPC464             MC0001A       405 mm x 155 mm
CPC464             MC0044D       238 mm x 145 mm
CPC464             MC0099A       237 mm x 108 mm
CPC664             MC0005B       475 mm x 155 mm


Yours


Terje Grind
Norway
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 17:25, 02 May 10
> Unfortunately the quality of my 6-7 years old digital camera, is so bad
Ah, good reason. Then I won't bother you again.
Scan could be great - but, aren't printer/scanner combos paper-feed? Then it could have a hard time when being fed with PCBs :-)

> On 122C it is 74Ls27N
> On 122B it is PC74HCT02P.
Okay, then I was wrong, and the ending letter in MCnnnX is important.
  7427 = triple 3-input NOR
  7402 = quad 2-input NOR
probably both used for same purpose, but the wires on the PCB must have been changed, not just its text layer.

> Now I got 13 machines laying opened  ;D
Aieeeh. I like opening things, too. But usually I have them kept laying around 6 months (or longer) before I get around to reassemble them :-) Hope that won't happen to you, too!
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 17:41, 02 May 10
Added the four new board sizes to http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions much less unknown ???x??? in red ink now, thanks! Good that checked 464 v1, it seems to be 3mm bigger than 464 v2.

Uhmmmm, now the 464 v3 (medium size) has two possible sizes:
  Markus: 240x150 for MCxxxxx
  Terje: 238x145 for MC0044D
Difference is 2mm width, and 5mm height. What to do now?

Markus, did you measure or calculate it? And Markus+Terje, how far do you trust your own results? :-) Maybe both are correct in case you measured different boards... Markus, do you remember if you used a MC0044D (or other) board?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 18:48, 02 May 10
I measured width & height of my board.

If I do remember the boards name?
Look @ the photo I gave you. ;)

My 464 is now assembled well and I don't think to disassemble it again for the next 50 years.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 00:27, 03 May 10
Ah, okay, that'd be this one http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:CPC464_MC0046A_Markus_top.jpg, the right edge actually looks a bit longer as than in http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:CPC464_Z70375_Tomdalby.jpg, not sure where the difference in height comes from. The distance from screw-holes to board edges looks same, and the holes likely at the same position (assuming that both boards fit in the same case). Anyways, that few millimeters aren't very important.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 00:29, 03 May 10
Don't forget: German CPC boards have a shield around.
Maybe that makes the size difference...
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 15:00, 05 May 10
Maybe funny info:
When I opened the CPC plus today, I noticed that it's AY chip looked a bit smaller than in my old 464!
So I measured it.
35 x 12 mm in CPC plus
37 x 14 mm in old CPC 464!
I only measured the case, not the pins!
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 18:00, 05 May 10
> On 122B it is PC74HCT02P. There are also two resistors.
> One between leg 2-8 and between 3-4.
Terje, they are "pins", not "legs". Well, to be fair, at HOME, I am calling them "legs", too.
And they are numbered anti-clockwise, so upper-right is leg 14 (not 8).
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Terje_Norway on 01:49, 06 May 10
Quote from: nocash on 18:00, 05 May 10
> On 122B it is PC74HCT02P. There are also two resistors.
> One between leg 2-8 and between 3-4.
Terje, they are "pins", not "legs". Well, to be fair, at HOME, I am calling them "legs", too.
And they are numbered anti-clockwise, so upper-right is leg 14 (not 8) .


OK, I know it is "pins" and NOT "legs"  ::) , but I think You did understand what I meant, even if wasn't academically correct.


YES, they are numbered anti-clockwise. Like my drawing below :


 1 -   14
 2-   -13
 3-   -12
 4-   -11
 5-   -10
 6-   - 9
 7-   - 8


5 and 10 is marked on the board.


Yours


Terje Grind
Norway
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 05:56, 06 May 10
> I know it is "pins" and NOT "legs"  ::) , but I think
> You did understand what I meant,
Of course I did. Everybody says "legs" and thinks of "legs". But nobody uses it in written language... though I don't know the reason for that. Probably it's a stupid reason :-)

Uploaded Terje's 464+/6128+/GX4000 mainboard scans, and added his description of the differences between the revisions to the mainboard page. And, whew, somebody added the Danish 464 keyboard picture! I thought that one would be hard to get.

Btw. a list of some other "most-wanted" photos is found on the bottom of this page: http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:NoPicture.gif (see the File links section), and a few more on this page: http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:NoPicture.png

Oh, and still missing mainboard sizes:
  6128 version 1 (probably same size as version 2...?)
  6128 version 3 (costdown board)
  Aleste 520 EX (rare cpc clone)

Cu, Martin
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 12:23, 07 May 10
Quote from: nocash on 05:56, 06 May 10
> I know it is "pins" and NOT "legs"  ::) , but I think...
I always say "pins", but "legs" are just as good.

I took some time to photograph some cartridge pcbs, sorry they are not all in focus, my hands are not always steady.

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/100_3234.JPG -pcb "amstro1" has eprom, hardwired links
  http://www.cpctech.org.uk/100_3238.JPG - 2700-023p-1, eprom, not hardwired links
http://www.cpctech.org.uk/100_3239.JPG - pcb underneath for 100_3234.JPG
  http://www.cpctech.org.uk/100_3240.JPG - pcb underneath for 2700..
  http://www.cpctech.org.uk/100_3242.JPG - case (base inside)
  http://www.cpctech.org.uk/100_3243.JPG - case (base outside)
http://www.cpctech.org.uk/100_3244.JPG - case (top outside)
  http://www.cpctech.org.uk/100_3246.JPG - case (top inside, plastic pin broken)
   
Sizes (pcb):
61mm (side) x 52mm (top)
 
box:
68mm (side) x 66mm (top) x 16mm (thick)

 
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 13:52, 07 May 10
Amstro1 - neat. And it's LK's are called L's :-) considering that people say that the plus/gx4000 has been a flop, it's amazing how many cartirdge/mainboard revisions were produced.

2700-023p-1 - that's the PCB I got from fano. It's having hardwired (printed/etched) LKs, same as Amstro1. One different thing is that 23p-1 has single-sided soldering points.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 13:58, 07 May 10
Quote from: nocash on 13:52, 07 May 10
Amstro1 - neat. And it's LK's are called L's :-) considering that people say that the plus/gx4000 has been a flop, it's amazing how many cartirdge/mainboard revisions were produced.

2700-023p-1 - that's the PCB I got from fano. It's having hardwired (printed/etched) LKs, same as Amstro1. One different thing is that 23p-1 has single-sided soldering points.
Maybe Amstrad lost too much money making different pcb revisions  :P

Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 15:04, 01 June 10
Hi, folks!


A couple of weeks ago, we discovered a new 6128 motherboard at CPCmaniaco's place, PT NO Z70290, MC0026B, 94V0-ECMM1, Copyright 1985.

I uploaded the picture to the motherboard revisions page.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Terje_Norway on 22:48, 06 June 10
Hi,


I have now remeasured most of my CPC boards, and this time the measurements are 100 % correct.
They are measured with a calibrated DIGITAL CALIPER, so it should be correct  :) .


  464plus &
6128plus                        MC0122C                         282 mm x 140 mm 
CPC664                          MC0005B                         480 mm x 156 mm (New size ! Measured twice)
CPC464                          MC0001A                         405 mm x 155 mm                     

CPC464                          MC0044D                         237 mm x 155 mm (New size! Measured THREE times)
CPC464                          MC0099A                         240 mm x 107 mm 
Schneider CPC6128        MC0025?                         320 mm x 157 mm 
Schneider CPC6128        MC0014?                         320 mm x 157 mm 

Amstrad CPC6128          MC0009B                         320 mm x 157 mm (New size ! Measured twice)
Amstrad CPC6128          MC0020A                         320 mm x 157 mm 
Amstrad CPC6128          MC0020C                         320 mm x 155 mm 

Amstrad CPC6128          MC0020I                          320 mm x 155 mm 


They are measured at their widest point. That does include the EDGE connectors, but not the Centronics connectors as they are soldered to the board.



Yours

Terje Grind

Norway

Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 10:04, 07 June 10
You must have a looot of time in your hands :D

Thanks for your trouble! But maybe the edge connectors should not be included in the dimensions... For one thing, their size remains constant and therefore the comparison between versions is eschewed. And then, these connectors go out of the normal board limits via the case openings...
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 13:31, 14 June 10
Last weekend I got an "Amstrad CPC 464" which was sold in Germany.
(Grey keyboard but Amstrad logo)
It has the same mainboard than my other "Schneider" CPC 464.
But 2 things are curious here:
- The LK bridge for "Schneider" was shortened before! Then it was cut to show "Amstrad"...
- The tape connector socket is different (This one here is flattened and doesnt match my other tape drive's connector)

The type-# and PT.NO. are identically to the other photo I uploaded!
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 13:36, 14 June 10
Other grey "Amstrads" have shown up before, it was assumed it was a case of stock leftovers or something...

Or, maybe Amstrad broke up with Schneider and so they marketed some qties themselves, using Schneider-designated stock in the process? The re-cut bridge is interesting...
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 13:44, 14 June 10
Hi folks!


I managed to get my hands on a CPC6128 Z70290, MC0020F board, which we don't have in the wiki list.


It's pretty damaged but will do for the component layout. I'll be uploading a nice picture tonight.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 14:13, 14 June 10
For the collectors:
A photo of the German "Amstrad CPC 464" handbook:
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 15:25, 14 June 10
Lovely pic! Weird choice of screenshot though, assuming this was late in the machine's life cycle...
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 20:51, 14 June 10
Behold!


A broken Z70290-MC0020F CPC6128 board (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:CPC6128_PCB_Top_(Z70290_MC0020F).jpg)!  ;D


Ok, how do I put a thumbnail of a bigger image in the wiki?


Edit: It has the standard 320x155 mm size.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 15:43, 15 June 10
Nice old board and a good photo, though it could be of a higher rez... but I don't complain :)

Regarding thumbnails: it's very easy to find out how to do stuff - just check the source code of a ready page. For instance , on the home page you can see:

[[Image:Cpc.PNG|thumb|right|150px|C.P.C.]]

This inserts a thumbnail of Cpc.PNG, 150-pixel wide, to the right of the text, with the text "C.P.C." under it :)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 16:16, 15 June 10
Define broken? I like to think of such parts as "not yet repaired" :)

Bryce.

Edit: Ooooouuu, I just took a look at the picture close up. That's nasty, looks like someone picked it up with a hedge-cutter, but it's probably still save-able: Replace the 74LS273, the Monitor connector, bridge the track gaps where it's ripped and the damaged resistors and capacitors and you might just get it back to life. All the important bits seem to have survived :)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 16:24, 15 June 10
@Gryzor


I did a nice 300dpi scan of the board, but if you need more resolution, you'll get it....  :D


Regarding the thumbnail, I think I didn't expressed myself correctly. What I was trying to do is include the thumbnail in the post here in the forum instead of the link.


@Bryce


Well.... It has broken resistors, broken IC's, some areas of the board are physically broken. It's not that it cannot be repaired but it is pretty damaged.
Anyway I got it because it was missing in our mainboard versions list and it has serve that purpose well.  8)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 16:33, 15 June 10
I managed to get an Atari 800XL back running that was in similar condition. Not because I needed to, but just because I enjoyed the challenge. But then again, as a friend of mine once said: If I was a vet, I'd probably have a go at getting a medium cooked steak back on its feet :D

Regarding the thumbnail: You can add a thumbnail to the forum by chosing "Additional options" below the text input box and adding the file as an attachment.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 07:04, 17 June 10
Hi Markus,

> Last weekend I got an "Amstrad CPC 464" which was sold in Germany.
> (Grey keyboard but Amstrad logo)
That sounds like the "unidentified model" on the http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Keyboard_Versions page. Good to know that it IS a german model (the only other info claimed it was a UK model).
How about a photo of the keyboard? The "diagonal" http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:WalgenbachAmstrad_CPC464_grey_Large.jpg picture doesn't fit too well for the keyboard page.

---

Btw. did anybody ever disassemble an english CPC Plus system cartridge? Would be nice to know the part number on the eprom sticker. Not toooo important, but it's known for all other countries, except england. (Note: I read somewhere that the snap-ins could easily break when opening CPC cartridges, so think of a way to reassemble it before trying to open it).

Cu, Martin
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: leZone on 12:05, 11 September 10
Hello!

i dont read all the topic, i just want to share with cpc community a list i made since years, to sort hardware by MFRS number
my list is very different of the hardware list you have because it is not list in the same way : for me, country is the most important thing because of external differences, then MFRS and yellow letter are important, serial number is important too, and you can sort computers in chronogical issue

is there a place on the wiki where computers are sorted by external aspect, MFRS, serial number, model of logo, amstrad or schneider, type of keyboard .... ?

if an administrator want this full list in excel format, please contact me
by the way i own 43 cpc computers, most all of them are different, i'll make a website with photos of it later when i'll have time, i just can show you external keyboard-view photos if interested
i wanted to show you these photos, but i didn't find any presentation thread directory, is there one on this board ?


if it can help, here is a short part of my list, the only where i have number of motherboard :

computer / country / motherboard / crtc / gate array / z80 / MFRS or colored sticker
464 / english / MC0001A / HD6845SP / 40007-4 / ZILOG Z80A CPU / Yellow E ; K31-4Y
464 / english / MC0002B / HD6845SP / 40010 / ZILOG Z80A CPU / Yellow K ; K31-51
464 / french / MC0001A / HD6845SP / 40007-4 / ZILOG Z80A CPU / Yellow I ; K31-4Y (rom 40009 6133-1950 8435AAA)
464 / french / MC0002C / HD6845SP / 40007-4 / SGS Z80ACPU / Yellow O ; K31-57 (Yellow P)
464 / french / MC0002D / HD6845P / 40010 / SGS Z80ACPU / ??? ; ???
464 / french / MC0002D / HD6845SP / 40007-4 / Zilog Z80 CPU / MFRS D
464 / french / MC0044B / UM6845R / 40010 / Zilog Z80 CPU / MFRS A
464 / spain / MC0044D / UM6845R / 40007 / Zilog Z80 CPU / MFRS B
464 / german / MC0002B / HD6845SP / 40007 / SGS Z80ACPU / Yellow J ; K31-53 (rom 40009 6133-1950 8449HAK)
464 / german / MC0008C / HD6845 / 40010 / ZILOG Z80CPU / MFRS B (rom 40009 763004)
464 / german / MC0046A / UM6845R / 40010 / Zilog Z80 CPU / MFRS A

472 / spain / MC0002C / HD6845SP / 40010 / SGS Z80ACPU / ???

664 / english / MC0005A / HD6845SP / 40010 / SGS Z80ACPU / Yellow A ; K32-54
664 / french / MC0005A / HD6845SP / 40010 / SGS Z80ACPU / Yellow A ; K32-53
664 / french / MC0005B / HD6845SP / 40010 / SGS Z80ACPU / Yellow B ; K32-54

6128 / english / MC0009B / MC6845P / 40010 / SGS Z80ACPU / Yellow A ; K32-57
6128 / french / MC0020B / MC6845SP / 40010 / SGS Z80ACPU / Red C ; ?
6128 / french / MC0020C / UM6845 / 40010 / ZILOG Z80CPU / ???
6128 / french / MC0026D / UM6845 / 40010 / MOSTEK Z80 / MFRS H (rom 40051 - 5752-3030-8701-EMI)
6128 / french / MC0023G / UM6845R / 40010 / ZILOG Z80CPU / MFRS K (alsacian model, silver label)
6128 / french / MC0020I / UM6845R / 40010 / ZILOG Z80CPU / MFRS L
6128 / french / MC0100A / ? / ? / ? / MFRS O
6128 / german / MC0012B / HD6845SP / 40010 / SGS Z80ACPU / Yellow B ; ? (rom 40025 6133-1953 8523HAK)
6128 / german / MC0023C / HD6845SP / 40010 / ZILOG Z80CPU / MFRS B
6128 / german / MC0023F / HD6845 / 40010 / ZILOG Z80CPU / MFRS E

464+ / french / MC0122D [9] / ? / ? / ? / MFRS D
6128+ / french / MC0122A [5] / ? / ? / ? / MFRS D
6128+ / french / MC0122E [10] / ? / ? / ST Z80ACPU / MFRS G
GX4000 / french / MC0123C [6] / ? / ? / ST Z80A CPU / ?



Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 12:34, 13 September 10
43 different CPCs??? This is crazy!!! Wow... I can't begin to imagine how you managed to find such a diverse collection, or how many duplicates you 'threw out'...
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: leZone on 12:53, 13 September 10
there is lots of differences : keyboard, logo, language, down plate, connectors, model, motherboard ... i know i miss some to complete it !
i think there is 2 or 3 wich are "same" as others here

(http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/th_lezone-collection-8bits-cpc1.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/?action=view&current=lezone-collection-8bits-cpc1.jpg)   (http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/th_lezone-collection-8bits-cpc2.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/?action=view&current=lezone-collection-8bits-cpc2.jpg)  (http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/th_lezone-collection-8bits-cpc3.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/?action=view&current=lezone-collection-8bits-cpc3.jpg)  (http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/th_lezone-collection-8bits-cpc4.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/?action=view&current=lezone-collection-8bits-cpc4.jpg)  (http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/th_lezone-collection-8bits-cpc5.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/?action=view&current=lezone-collection-8bits-cpc5.jpg)  (http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/th_lezone-collection-8bits-cpcA.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/?action=view&current=lezone-collection-8bits-cpcA.jpg)  (http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/th_lezone-collection-8bits-cpc9.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/?action=view&current=lezone-collection-8bits-cpc9.jpg)  (http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/th_lezone-collection-8bits-cpc8.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/?action=view&current=lezone-collection-8bits-cpc8.jpg)  (http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/th_lezone-collection-8bits-cpc7.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/?action=view&current=lezone-collection-8bits-cpc7.jpg)  (http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/th_lezone-collection-8bits-cpc6.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/?action=view&current=lezone-collection-8bits-cpc6.jpg)  (http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/th_lezone-collection-8bits-cpcB.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/?action=view&current=lezone-collection-8bits-cpcB.jpg)  (http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/th_cpc-disquettes.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/?action=view&current=cpc-disquettes.jpg)  (http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/th_cpc-lecteur-boites.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/?action=view&current=cpc-lecteur-boites.jpg)  (http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/th_cpc-modules.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/?action=view&current=cpc-modules.jpg)  (http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/th_cpc-manuels.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/?action=view&current=cpc-manuels.jpg)  (http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/th_cpc-ecran-couleur.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/?action=view&current=cpc-ecran-couleur.jpg)  (http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/th_cpc-ecran-monochrome.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/?action=view&current=cpc-ecran-monochrome.jpg)

as you can see, i miss some hardware to finish my goal  ;)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 13:06, 13 September 10
Is here someone who owns the CPC 464 prototype?
http://cpcwiki.eu/imgs/3/3d/GA_high_res.JPG
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: leZone on 13:14, 13 September 10
sadly no  :(
it's a holly graal !
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 13:37, 13 September 10
Yes :-D
Well you have a nice collection!
What I am looking for is a English CPC 464... (With the coloured keys)
Who wants to give me one?
I cannot pay for it :( But I would be over-happy :D
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: steve on 13:48, 13 September 10
Quote from: Devilmarkus on 13:06, 13 September 10
Is here someone who owns the CPC 464 prototype?
http://cpcwiki.eu/imgs/3/3d/GA_high_res.JPG (http://cpcwiki.eu/imgs/3/3d/GA_high_res.JPG)

I never realised that plastic could rust so badly ;)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Devilmarkus on 13:51, 13 September 10
Quote from: steve on 13:48, 13 September 10
I never realised that plastic could rust so badly ;)

Yes it's in a poor condition :( I wonder why the owner did not clean it...
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 14:07, 13 September 10
Well, maybe he took it just after he got it out of the box. It's a real shame we don't have many, many more of both the innards and the case...

Concerning the dirt - imagine the programming that took place on this little fella!
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 17:47, 13 September 10
Nice photo collection! Is that just a problem with my eyes, or are some 464's a few centimeters longer than others? Like the upper two models on http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/lezone-collection-8bits-cpc2.jpg for example?

The bottom one on http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/lezone-collection-8bits-cpc5.jpg, that is the "missing" german amstrad 464 one isn't it? Missing in so far as there's no photo on http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Keyboard_Versions. One other thing that is missing there is the Schneider 464 with "Ein" LED instead of "In Function" LED. Didn't knew that this variant does exist.

Just checking which of your MCnnnn board numbers are found on the http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions page... the 464, 664, 464+ and gx4000 boards seem to be all there... but many-many of the 6128 and 6128+ boards are missing on cpcwiki:
6128 / english / MC0009B - missing
6128 / french / MC0020B - ok
6128 / french / MC0020C - missing
6128 / french / MC0026D - missing
6128 / french / MC0023G - missing
6128 / french / MC0020I - ok
6128 / french / MC0100A - ok
6128 / german / MC0012B - missing
6128 / german / MC0023C - missing
6128 / german / MC0023F - missing
6128+ / french / MC0122A - missing
6128+ / french / MC0122E - missing
Hmmmm, you don't eventually have photos (or scans) of that boards?

I am sure the "MFRS or colored sticker" thing did have some meaning - but I've no clue which one. Could indicate the hardware in it, or location or date when or where it was assembled, or shipping/distributor destination info, or whatever. Guess you haven't found out its meaning, or did you?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: steve on 18:18, 13 September 10
Would that prototype use a 6502 processor or is it later than that?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: leZone on 22:11, 13 September 10
i'm not sure it's the right thread to speak about visual variations, because it's thread about motherboards : ask me if it will be better to have a new thread for visual variations and MFRS informations

Quote from: nocash on 17:47, 13 September 10
Nice photo collection! Is that just a problem with my eyes, or are some 464's a few centimeters longer than others?
optical effect due to my Nikon wich have large anglular lens

Quote from: nocash on 17:47, 13 September 10
The bottom one on http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/lezone-collection-8bits-cpc5.jpg (http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/lezone-collection-8bits-cpc5.jpg), that is the "missing" german amstrad 464 one isn't it?
it is the 664 german version, with grey keys instead of blue (it cost me a lot but i'm happy to have one of it)

Quote from: nocash on 17:47, 13 September 10
Hmmmm, you don't eventually have photos (or scans) of that boards?
i own some of it, others are from internet but if i have the motherboard information that means i have a photo somewhere in my digital archives
i'll take a look (due to space problems, my amstrads are not with me for now, i'll change my home soon, so i think i'll be able to make all photos possible after january 2011, i just ask you to wait some months)

Quote from: nocash on 17:47, 13 September 10
I am sure the "MFRS or colored sticker" thing did have some meaning - but I've no clue which one. Could indicate the hardware in it, or location or date when or where it was assembled, or shipping/distributor destination info, or whatever. Guess you haven't found out its meaning, or did you?
i found some tracks to understand it, but it is not 100% perfect : each MRFS new letter = new modification of the hardware, it can be motherboard or keyboard or language roms or something other visual aspect
Oldest have round colored sticker and serial number on a small sticker, newest have MFRS white sticker ans serial is write on main plate

i sort hardware by country, then by MFRS or yellow round sticker wich can be yellow, orange or red
because mfrs grow up with serial number on the same country, but i'm not sure the same mfrs on english computers means the same french version of hardware inside

464 with big keyboard have colored sticker yellow
note : 464 english models with big keys have sticker with "British Electrotechnical Approvals Board"
letters grow with every modification, then one day, yellow sticker is replaced by MFRS white and restart from A
464 with short motherboard and english+spanish texts in plastic, restart MFRS from A
464 with yellow sticker ; serial start with K31 or K32
464 with MFRS ; serial start with 531, 533, 535, 544,

472 with normal keyboard have yellow sticker
472 with spanish ñ key have orange sticker, or red sticker
472 have not MFRS white sticker (use this to detect fakes on ebay)

664 have yellow sticker ; serial start with K32-53 , K32-54 , K32-55
664 have not MFRS white sticker

6128 have usually yellow sitcker or white MFRS
BUT i own one with red sticker!

6128 with short motherboard (arnold4) have MFRS O, serial start with 671- or 672-
plus versions have a square colored sticker with letter, it's the same in computer/console and in the box, on the plastic cases in the box (usually green)

there is a variation of the upper plastic case of the 6128+ computer (under amstrad logo)

monitors and other peripherals have MFRS too
the only yellow sticker i know is on a GT64 old english monitor

that's a big list i made since now 6 years, with some internet photos and with my computers, some people help me to add computers to my list
i'll be happy if some of you can help me to add devices to this list
i'll make this list available to public probably in 2011 when my real life will be more clear than now

here are the models i have referenced, it miss some extra variations like small motherboard on 6128 for example :
english 464 / old logo / big keys
english 464 / old logo / small keys
english 464 / new logo / small keys
english 464 / new logo / small keys / short motherboard ?? never see one

french 464 / old logo / qwerty / big keys
french 464 / old logo / qwerty / small keys / 2 AMPS on label
french 464 / old logo / qwerty / small keys / 2 AMP on label
french 464 / old logo / azerty / small keys
french 464 / new logo / azerty / small motherboard

spanish 464 / old logo
spanish 464 / big logo / small motherboard

german 464 / schneider big logo / big keys
german 464 / schneider big logo / small keys
german 464 / schneider small logo / small keys
german 464 / amstrad logo / small motherboard (keyboard with grey keys) (i own this one)

spanish 472 / without ñ key
spanish 472 / with ñ key

english 664 / FDD (floppy disc drive)
french 664 / LDD (lecteur de disquettes)
german 664 / schneider logo, grey keys

english 6128 / old logo
english 6128 / new logo

french 6128 / old logo / qwerty
french 6128 / old logo / azerty
french 6128 / new logo
french 6128 / new logo / silver plate on floppy disc (called the Alsacian model)

spanish 6128 / old logo
spanish 6128 / new logo

german 6128 / big logo
german 6128 / small logo

english 464+ / qwerty
french 464+ / azerty
spanish 464+ / with ñ key

english 6128+ / qwerty
french 6128+ / motherboard v6
french 6128+ / motherboard v7
spanish 6128+ / with ñ key

GT64 english amstrad
GT64 german schneider
GT65-2 new logo
CTM 640
CTM 644-2 old logo
CTM 644-2 new logo
CTM 644-2 schneider big logo
CTM 644-2 schneider small logo
MM12
CM14
MP-1
MP-2F
MP-3
CT-1
i miss some other peripherals


oh and at last, i own the rare and famous american 6128 modified by INDESCOMP (wich was sold in europe because amstrad never sold the cpc in usa), it's english amstrad, qwerty, with centronics connectors
here the plate, photo as a gift for you ;)
(http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/lezone/DSCN0317-usa6128.jpg)
as you can see, this one is exceptionnal, yellow round sticker with A letter, serial is on plate on chrome, INDESCOMP text ... Amstrad hardware is crazy to collect, enjoy  ;D
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 23:53, 13 September 10
Phew, the MFRS stickers are confusing me, they do increase somehow... and do eventually restart... not to forget that the color changes once and then. No thanks, don't want to know more details. I am feeling better with photos of mainboards and keyboards.

You mean Amstrad never sold CPCs in usa? That'd explain why there's so little info about US cpc's and US users... Though ACU announced that the 6128 "will be" launched in USA, http://cpcwiki.eu/imgs/5/55/Amstrad_Computer_User8508_007.jpg - the article doesn't say if it "was actually" launched, but I thought that they did at least sell a few models, or do you know more about the US history?

Btw. does your US-Indescomp show "Solavox" in the boot message? Like those mentioned here, http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Solavox more offtopic, here are a few notes & press infos about CPCs in usa and elsewhere, http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/CPCs_Worldwide including the cpc launch in singapore; I assume that it became a flop there, too.

PS. more on the prototype, http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/CPC_Prototypes, I think it's a "normal" CPC with Z80, but the gate array seems to be a "little" bigger than usually. Quite possible that it might also contain an older BIOS version (no idea if anybody ever dumped it).
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: leZone on 10:29, 14 September 10
Quote from: nocash on 23:53, 13 September 10
the article doesn't say if it "was actually" launched, but I thought that they did at least sell a few models, or do you know more about the US history?
i think they never sell any cpc in usa, the launch was aborted and computers stay in spain, and never travel to usa

Indescomp is a spanish company, created in 1981
Indescomp ask amstrad to import and sell cpc 464 in spain, the deal was done in exchange of games created by indescomp
Indescomp was a spanish holding which included the hardware and software importer and distributor Indescomp, the software house Microbyte and the publisher of the Amstrad User magazine for Spain.
cpc was a succes in spain, so indescomp ask amstrad to sell cpc in usa, on label Solavox
indescomp buy computers and relook it for usa market, they start to marketing in usa but they never send computers in usa (it's look like a money problem, you must pay for example wallmart to be distributed by their shops, and european software company had not enough money to prepare a launch like this, indescomp was not atari...)
these 6128 was finally sold in europe, specially in spain (but i had buy mine in france in the 2k's, so i'm not able to tell his travel story)
in 87 : Amstrad PLC acquires Indescomp   Sep 25 1987
end of story

sources:
http://amstrad.cpc.free.fr/amstrad/cpc472.htm (http://amstrad.cpc.free.fr/amstrad/cpc472.htm)
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tzrwIFFgybwJ:www.alacrastore.com/company-snapshot/Indescomp_S_A-1048748+indescomp+amstrad&cd=7&hl=fr&ct=clnk&gl=fr (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tzrwIFFgybwJ:www.alacrastore.com/company-snapshot/Indescomp_S_A-1048748+indescomp+amstrad&cd=7&hl=fr&ct=clnk&gl=fr)
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WYT5OvFctekJ:www.phenix.cathydeco.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php%3Ftopic_id%3D3729%26start%3D10+cpczone.net+solavox&cd=2&hl=fr&ct=clnk&gl=fr (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WYT5OvFctekJ:www.phenix.cathydeco.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php%3Ftopic_id%3D3729%26start%3D10+cpczone.net+solavox&cd=2&hl=fr&ct=clnk&gl=fr)


Quote from: nocash on 23:53, 13 September 10
Btw. does your US-Indescomp show "Solavox" in the boot message?
i have never started this computer, i'll do the day i'll be able to open it and take hi res photos in good condition

Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: nocash on 18:02, 14 September 10
If the info in the new york times article from 1987 is correct... "Until last fall, its home computers were marketed by Sears World Trade Inc. ... Sears World Trade, however, ended up purchasing only about 70,000 units, instead of the expected 100,000 units" there seem to have been some 6128's exported to USA. Not as many as expected, and maybe some (or all?) of them were returned to europe, but they seem to have been there.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: leZone on 18:22, 14 September 10
purchasing is different from distribute
perhaps they purchase with money, but have never take the hardware in their hands ?
do you know if it exist public adverts for CPC in USA ? (like catalog of computer, reseller or other thing like this)
indescomp modified computers in end of 1985 to sell for christmas probably and in 86, it's strange Sears buy stuff in 87 ?
your opinion ?

(i dont know the true, like you i search informations)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 13:41, 16 September 10
Hey guys, I did reformat a bit the Mainboard Versions page by inserting the pictures in tables.


I'm beginning to upload the other side of the PCB's and I thought it would be better that way.


CPCManiaco gave me 6 boards to scan and upload  them, so stay tuned!  :D
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 12:45, 17 September 10
Woo-hoo :) Thanks!
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: leZone on 14:06, 17 September 10
hi!
i found these photos on my harddrive (look attachments)
hope to help
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 14:21, 17 September 10
The MC0002C board is really interesting because I thought it was exclusive for the 472 and yours is a standard 464.


I'll include it in the Mainboard versions article.


Thanks!


Edit:I uploaded the 3 pictures to the article, nice pictures, btw!
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 21:16, 16 April 11
I add a lite data,not exactly the motherboard,but,with entire cpc.

Probably,the cpcs that are made in corea,are made  in Gyeongsankbuk-do factory(orion factory the monitors at least 100% Insurance).

Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 13:41, 17 April 11
You think they might have some stock left? :D
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 16:35, 17 April 11
QuoteYou think they might have some stock left? (http://cpcwiki.eu/forum/Smileys/akyhne/cheesy.gif)
.

No,beacause, in 2002,They create a subdivision dedicate to lcd,plasma etc.. panels and moved a little.


http://www.oriondisplay.net/ (http://www.oriondisplay.net/) (here you can see the actual factory).

The esact direction in fabricacion cpcs in corea was:

165, KONGDAN-DONG, KUMI-SHI, KYONGBUK (the actual factory is same direction but 257-6 number).

But,you can ask for cpc cost-down made in tailand.The factory exists:


This:

(http://www.orion-electric.co.jp/en/businesses/img/worldelectricthailand.jpg)



236 Moo 2 Nongchark Banbung, Chonburi 20170 THAILAND (home of cpc cost-down :) .

All amstrad computers,cpc,pc,pcw printers that are made in corea o thailand,are produced by orion in their  factories. The printers made in hong kong,Are made in amstrad factory.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 19:34, 17 April 11
I'll keep that in mind on my next trip to Thai :D
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 11:42, 19 July 11
for fdc, 8255 and Z80 I have added the part numbers used. I looked at the existing pictures on the wiki.
There *may* be some minor differences between them or there may be none.

It seems there is a difference between NMOS and CMOS Z80 in the undocumented OUT (C),0 instruction. On NMOS it actually does OUT (C),&ff.

Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: SyX on 19:49, 20 July 11
Quote from: arnoldemu on 11:42, 19 July 11It seems there is a difference between NMOS and CMOS Z80 in the undocumented OUT (C),0 instruction. On NMOS it actually does OUT (C),&ff.
Yes, i read that in an old doc, but i thought that there is not any CPC using a NMOS Z80. Is this supposition correct?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 14:22, 21 November 11
I add a little unkow information related to pcw series.The amstrad pcw rangue uses a nec gate array,probably a nec version cmos-2 or cmos 3 or cmos-4 series.


Disafortunly.In the world wide web.I only can found the datasheet of cmos-2.


But,its useful,because it explan how read the serial of chip.Thats  feauture is equal in all series of nec gate array.


So in the motherboard of pcw in cpc wiki picture.The number in the asic chips=lote of production.


http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/115557/NEC/UPD65000.html (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/115557/NEC/UPD65000.html)


http://www2.renesas.com/maps_download/pdf/A19156EJ1V0IF00.pdf (http://www2.renesas.com/maps_download/pdf/A19156EJ1V0IF00.pdf) (view table 2.1)


Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 14:32, 21 November 11
Quote from: SyX on 19:49, 20 July 11
Yes, i read that in an old doc, but i thought that there is not any CPC using a NMOS Z80. Is this supposition correct?

The original NMOS Z80s were in the typical white casing and they also only went up to 2.5Mhz. The CPC only ever used the CMOS Z80A, which went up to 4Mhz. An NMOS Z80 wouldn't work in a CPC.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: SyX on 15:35, 21 November 11
Thanks Bryce, i use a lot the "OUT (C),0", it's recorded in my mind, because it's very useful for rasters, sound and keyboard routines, and i would hate to use an alternative (SLOW) way :P

PD:Now, could we attach this z80 (http://www.sharpmz.org/z80glass.htm) to the CPC???
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: 68k-dude on 19:55, 23 November 11
Quote from: SyX on 15:35, 21 November 11
PD:Now, could we attach this z80 (http://www.sharpmz.org/z80glass.htm) to the CPC???

I have a good two part epoxy that we could use.  The little blighter wouldn't ever get away. :)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: TFM on 21:37, 23 November 11
I doubt the glass Z80 contains all the undocumented or even illegal instructions though :blank:
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: SyX on 22:06, 23 November 11
In that case, we will need to request at Sharp samples for testing ;)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: TFM on 22:43, 23 November 11
Of course ;-)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 10:57, 24 November 11
I don't think I'd want a glass Z80 on my CPC, I'd feel my CPC was using Windows :D

Bryce. 
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: MacDeath on 12:44, 24 November 11
There, have a glass of Z80... a good millésime IMO.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: xesrjb on 13:50, 24 November 11
Quote from: Devilmarkus on 13:06, 13 September 10
Is here someone who owns the CPC 464 prototype?
http://cpcwiki.eu/imgs/3/3d/GA_high_res.JPG (http://cpcwiki.eu/imgs/3/3d/GA_high_res.JPG)

Jesus in spain has one!!

xesrjb
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: TFM on 06:00, 26 November 11
Quote from: Bryce on 10:57, 24 November 11
I don't think I'd want a glass Z80 on my CPC, I'd feel my CPC was using Windows :D

Bryce.

Haha, indeed, but the CPC would be faster though  :laugh:

Quote from: MacDeath on 12:44, 24 November 11
There, have a glass of Z80... a good millésime IMO.

Right, I heart you get the most tasty in France  ;)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 14:21, 11 July 12
About my motherboard :) : http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:AmstradCPC464_Z70375_MC0044D_GA40010_PCB_Bottom.jpg (http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:AmstradCPC464_Z70375_MC0044D_GA40010_PCB_Bottom.jpg)


Anyone know the use of the red Wire in the two chips of ram?.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 14:55, 11 July 12
Yes, it's Adress line 3 (A3). Either the board was damaged and needed to be repaired or there was a mistake made in the layout and needed to be reworked.

Bryce.

Edit: I just took a look at the top of the board and realised that someone has done major IC replacement on it, so I assume they tore a track while doing so. ie: It's a damaged track, not a layout error.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 15:21, 11 July 12
Years ago the motherboard is broken(overvoltage)The mother board is repaired by the official amstrad repair service.I remember the phone call("we found the piece broken 60e equivalent to repair ir").I'm beginning to think that they were useless.After the repair,the cpc never charge the games well.I had to return a lot of games in their day to stores.Because it not load.


Who can imagine. They can destroy a layout in the motherboard to repair them lol.


I not see the bacwards of the motherboard,until it has been scanned.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 15:30, 11 July 12
Well €60 for that repair isn't bad, they replaced all the RAM, the CRTC, the Gate array and the ROM (The CPU may have been replaced too). So the price is actually quite good considering the time they would need to do this. Removing ICs isn't easy, so tearing a track can easily happen if you lift the IC too soon or heat the pin a bit too much.
The loading problems are unlikely to be related to the over-voltage or repair. Most likely just a badly adjusted or dirty tape head.

Strange that they used MME2164 RAM instead of the original KM4164. It's an exact equivalent, but I would have thought that 4164 would have been easier to source.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 15:55, 11 July 12
I not sure,maybe is the range year 90-94 when it is  repaired.I search the datasheet of ram,but not lucky.Maybe they use the only ram they can found. :P



Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 16:33, 11 July 12
The 2164 is identical to the 4164, same pinout, timings etc. So you can use the 4164 Datasheet for reference.

The 2164 was the Eastern Block (GDR, USSR) version of the 4164 and datasheets for these are pretty difficult (if not impossible) to find. Even back in the 90's it's unusual for a western repair shop to be using eastern components.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: ralferoo on 12:21, 12 July 12
Quote from: Bryce on 16:33, 11 July 12
The 2164 was the Eastern Block (GDR, USSR) version of the 4164 and datasheets for these are pretty difficult (if not impossible) to find. Even back in the 90's it's unusual for a western repair shop to be using eastern components.
Proof that Bryce really does know everything... ;)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 14:50, 12 July 12
I'm sure there are others here that knew that too. Especially due to the fact that the 2164 was produced by VEB MME in Erfurt. The same company who built the KC Compact, semi Amstrad clone :) (although it wasn't built in the Erfurt factory).

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 21:08, 15 July 12
Maybe the repair shop was a KGB front? Heh, imagine that, they'd have their own supply line to keep in business... :D
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 01:16, 17 July 12
Maybe They  traded with the cpc east clone.Or The history is wrong and the MME ram is created in spain :D .


Or maybe is destroyed in the 2000 by james bond.Who knows. :D


Or,If you send a cpc to Amstrad official support,they resend it to a factory to the east In style of sony playstation or xbox 360..
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 09:57, 17 July 12
If anyone is interested in or needs any east 8-bit ICs, there's two guys off-loading tonnes of the stuff on ebay at the moment: hjkdesign | eBay (http://www.ebay.de/sch/hjkdesign/m.html?hash=item2ec01967d4&item=200791386068&pt=Klassische_Computer&rt=nc&_trksid=p4340.l2562)

gunti5 | eBay (http://www.ebay.de/sch/gunti5/m.html?hash=item43b1992406&item=290742412294&pt=Klassische_Computer&rt=nc&_trksid=p4340.l2562)

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 17:01, 17 July 12
Ohh I especially like these: 8 Stück Original EPROM für KC85 -KS573RF2- (2716) | eBay (http://www.ebay.de/itm/8-Stuck-Original-EPROM-fur-KC85-KS573RF2-2716-/290742410542?pt=Klassische_Computer&hash=item43b1991d2e) . Shame he's only shipping to Germany, I might bid on them, they look great.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 17:04, 17 July 12
What exactly would you do with a pile of old 2K EPROMs?

If you want old EPROMs, I'll send you a few next time I'm sending you something.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 17:07, 17 July 12
Well, thanks, but it's not just an old EPROM and of course I wouldn't be doing anything with it; it just looks nice, very low-tech and steam-punk like, and it's also got a Cyrillic letter on it!
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 13:39, 02 August 17
Iwe need made a database with serial numbers+ board revision.


I think the version of the revision of the board not is lineal in time. I think it depend of factory where the cpc go out.


I think that because i view a plus in ebay that have board rev e. But by the serial number is made early that my plus. If i remember o.k i have the c , so it can't be lineal in time.


But there is diference that revision -e was made in code 531,where my plus was made in 532.


https://picclick.co.uk/Amstrad-CPC6128-Plus-Amstrad-CPC-6128-Plus-182623301941.html


Mine was made in 08







Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 14:09, 02 August 17
I think that wouldn't yield any useful information, as many machines have had their boards swapped.


Or as you say, different factories made different board revisions, but you cannot match them to serial numbers.


So, what would be the need for such database?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: PulkoMandy on 17:26, 02 August 17
It's also possible that the first revs of the motherboard were first not put into machines and kept in storage, and machines shipped with fixed boards. But at some point the stock of fixed boards was too low so they took the broken one and applied the patches manually while waiting for new boards to ship. You never know what could happen in the factory.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 20:34, 02 August 17
Quote from: robcfg on 14:09, 02 August 17
I think that wouldn't yield any useful information, as many machines have had their boards swapped.


Or as you say, different factories made different board revisions, but you cannot match them to serial numbers.


So, what would be the need for such database?


Not all the world swap the motherboard lol. He can be, But not more that no swap.Anyway is simply as to only acept serial numbers of poople buy the computer from amstrad in the 80. No serial numbers really,only Factory and date with rev.


In the other hand, you can swap the board,But can,'t swap chips witouth make trace.  So If the date code of ic>=date   is swaped.


The objetive is know when amstrad change to another revisión and It is ligated to Factory. Find relations. And know more about Factory process, for example when they swap z80 tl  st  if crtc type is Factory line dependant etc...


Its imposible know these type of things without a referente.



Oh amstrad have Many misterys. :).
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: leZone on 11:48, 16 November 17
Quote from: dragon on 13:39, 02 August 17
Iwe need made a database with serial numbers+ board revision.
I think the version of the revision of the board not is lineal in time.
it's not linked only to the full serial but with to 2 major factors : country + MFRS, then serial comes in 3rd

i have this kind of list, made by myself since more than ten years
i need a website system to make it useable for people
(if a web coder is interested to transform my data excel in a web page database with form sheet, contact me - in english or french)



Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: leZone on 11:57, 16 November 17
Hi !


NEW revision motherboard found (in my collection)


6128 v1 : MC0016A
from Indescomp Amstrad 6128 customised for USA market
(ask me for HD files, to add it to the wiki webpage)


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Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: leZone on 12:03, 16 November 17
another revision motherboard found (in my collection)


6128 v2 : MC0023F
on Schneider 6128, BIG LOGO version
(ask me for HD files, to add it to the wiki webpage)

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Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: leZone on 12:16, 16 November 17
I have Questions about 6128 v3 MC0100A :

on the main photo there is 2 more chips on the board, than on the "another picture" photo

i have a "672" version, there is not these 2 more chips
- how many computers have these 2 more chips ?
- is it the early version ? or a custom version ?
- solders on back looks manual, it seems to be a custom version, do you have history of this computer ?
- is it possible to replace main photo with a no-custom version please ?

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Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: gerald on 13:35, 16 November 17
Quote from: leZone on 12:16, 16 November 17
I have Questions about 6128 v3 MC0100A :

on the main photo there is 2 more chips on the board, than on the "another picture" photo

i have a "672" version, there is not these 2 more chips
- how many computers have these 2 more chips ?
- is it the early version ? or a custom version ?
- solders on back looks manual, it seems to be a custom version, do you have history of this computer ?
- is it possible to replace main photo with a no-custom version please ?

[ This attachment cannot be displayed inline in 'Print Page' view ]

The 4 empty footprints are for 64kx4 dram as in the Plus range. This is an assembly option : either 16 64kx1 or 4 64kx4.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: leZone on 17:34, 16 November 17
Quote from: gerald on 13:35, 16 November 17
The 4 empty footprints are for 64kx4 dram as in the Plus range. This is an assembly option : either 16 64kx1 or 4 64kx4.
it is not my question  ;)

=> my questions are for this one :
This one have only 2 more chips (not 4 like explanation)
and reverse side look it is hand made solders, not made in a factory, empty holes, solder removed by hand : http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/4/4b/CPC6128_PCB_Bottom_%28Z80330_MC0100A%29.jpg
and it miss the marron component for each chip wich is not normal for a factory product : http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:CPC6128_PCB_Top_(Z80330_MC0100A).jpg

This one is normal, like mine, with factory 4 empty fields : http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/e/ed/CPC6128_Z80330_Yarek.jpg
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: gerald on 19:02, 16 November 17
Quote from: leZone on 17:34, 16 November 17
it is not my question  ;)

=> my questions are for this one :
This one have only 2 more chips (not 4 like explanation)
and reverse side look it is hand made solders, not made in a factory, empty holes, solder removed by hand : http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/4/4b/CPC6128_PCB_Bottom_%28Z80330_MC0100A%29.jpg (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/4/4b/CPC6128_PCB_Bottom_%28Z80330_MC0100A%29.jpg)
and it miss the marron component for each chip wich is not normal for a factory product : http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:CPC6128_PCB_Top_(Z80330_MC0100A).jpg (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:CPC6128_PCB_Top_(Z80330_MC0100A).jpg)
This CPC is not in its factory state.
Only the owner could tell us the story of this CPC, but here is my version.
The 2 added DRAM chip replace the failing ones on the 64kx1 back. You can see that 3 devices have their VCC disconnected by grinding the package up to the pin bonding. This is not a proper way of disabling them as they are still powered indirectly by the address and data line.
Also you can see that the replacement DRAM have been soldered from the top by the residue of rosin left on the PCB. The back side show that most hole are not filled with solder.
That let me think that the fix has been done by someone who did not have access or the capability to de-solder the failing RAM, and probably did not bother unscrewing the PCB from the case to solder the new chip the academic way  :D
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: leZone on 10:52, 17 November 17
Quote from: gerald on 19:02, 16 November 17
This CPC is not in its factory state.
That let me think that the fix has been done by someone who did not have access or the capability to ...
yes, it's a pig job !   :'(
that's why i ask to remove these photos from the "main" list on the wiki webpage
and replace them by photos of a normal and never destroyed motherboard, as factory reference
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 18:43, 28 January 18
When was cpc discontinued?.


I know the cost down are manufactured at least until  month 5/89 in thailand and korea. Someone have a more later computer?.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 22:19, 28 January 18
I actually saw today a 464 with manufacturing date 5/89 and board code MC0099A.


It must be one of the latest boards made.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: 00WReX on 23:41, 28 January 18
I have a 464 with the following serial number (I believe this would have been the last month the classic 464 was made).

531-0723006

According to the serial number decode...

http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions#How_to_Decode_the_CPC_serial_number

This is July 1990.

Cheers,
Shane

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Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 00:01, 29 January 18
Quote from: 00WReX on 23:41, 28 January 18
I have a 464 with the following serial number (I believe this would have been the last month the classic 464 was made).

531-0723006

According to the serial number decode...

http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions#How_to_Decode_the_CPC_serial_number (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions#How_to_Decode_the_CPC_serial_number)

This is July 1990.

Cheers,
Shane




Wow! You can take a picture of the board?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: 00WReX on 00:17, 29 January 18
The mainboard is the MC0099A, the same as the one on the 'Mainboard' wiki page.

http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions#CPC464_version_4_.28cost-down.29 (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions#CPC464_version_4_.28cost-down.29)

Cheers,
Shane
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Shaun M. Neary on 11:51, 29 January 18
Quote from: 00WReX on 23:41, 28 January 18
I have a 464 with the following serial number (I believe this would have been the last month the classic 464 was made).

531-0723006

According to the serial number decode...

http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions#How_to_Decode_the_CPC_serial_number (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions#How_to_Decode_the_CPC_serial_number)

This is July 1990.

Cheers,
Shane

;)

That would be probably one of the last batch of 464's assembled before they discontinued it for the Plus machines. Treat that one with kid gloves, sir!
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Terje_Norway on 18:18, 29 January 18
Hi,


You obviously have one of the newer machines, but they didn't stop production of the ORIGINAL CPC464 until January or February 91.  :o


- How do I know this You might ask ? ? ? ::)


The case is simply that I have TWO of the latest batches of machines. They have labels with 90-12 and 91-01.
These machines came from Weeske in Germany (they were official dealers in those days). Both have matching serial numbers on both the boxes and machines.
What makes these so special is that they seems to be built of "leftover" parts.


You could have a look at the following post in this thread over 7 years ago.


http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/cpc-mainboard-versions/msg7334/#msg7334


Yours

Terje Grind
NORWAY







Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Shaun M. Neary on 18:21, 29 January 18
Definitely interesting, but if they were still being produced, my question is, who was selling them?

I never saw the CPC's after the Plus range came out anyway!
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 18:38, 29 January 18
Quote from: Terje_Norway on 18:18, 29 January 18
Hi,


You obviously have one of the newer machines, but they didn't stop production of the ORIGINAL CPC464 until January or February 91.  :o


- How do I know this You might ask ? ? ? ::)


The case is simply that I have TWO of the latest batches of machines. They have labels with 90-12 and 91-01.
These machines came from Weeske in Germany (they were official dealers in those days). Both have matching serial numbers on both the boxes and machines.
What makes these so special is that they seems to be built of "leftover" parts.


You could have a look at the following post in this thread over 7 years ago.


http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/cpc-mainboard-versions/msg7334/#msg7334 (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/cpc-mainboard-versions/msg7334/#msg7334)


Yours

Terje Grind
NORWAY


Maybe you can take picture of it? Label/computer, please?




Well there is the oficial stop production from amstrad(alan sugar always work with orion in far east.)


And another diffent when importation stops in uk france or germany.


I never view a spanish computer >5 /89. The middle 90 is a uk model?.


In the other hand you 91 german computers can explain why the 40226 spare are out. If amstrad stop the producion in 1990  and they sell the rest of components to local german(the 40226 was made in germany). Mostly are used in this local computers.



Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 02:18, 14 February 18
I have read a interesting note in the sof968 in the wiki that suggest amstrad include a certain model of crtc to avoid a bug in the ntsc 6128. All American cpc mount the same crtc.


What variant "not have a
programmable frame flyback pulse length."?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 10:07, 14 February 18
Quote from: dragon on 02:18, 14 February 18
I have read a interesting note in the sof968 in the wiki that suggest amstrad include a certain model of crtc to avoid a bug in the ntsc 6128. All American cpc mount the same crtc.


What variant "not have a
programmable frame flyback pulse length."?

NTSC 6128?? The CPC is neither PAL nor NTSC, it's RGB and there was no special US version. Any difference would have been in the MP-1/2, not the CPC.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: pelrun on 10:32, 14 February 18
Just read NTSC as shorthand for "the version sold in the US".


The monitor uses the line frequency as a timebase, and since that's 60Hz in the US the monitor calibration changes (to maintain the proper screen height) and the CRTC settings are different.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 10:39, 14 February 18
Quote from: dragon on 02:18, 14 February 18
I have read a interesting note in the sof968 in the wiki that suggest amstrad include a certain model of crtc to avoid a bug in the ntsc 6128. All American cpc mount the same crtc.


What variant "not have a
programmable frame flyback pulse length."?
MC6845 or UM6845R.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 10:41, 14 February 18
Quote from: Bryce on 10:07, 14 February 18
NTSC 6128?? The CPC is neither PAL nor NTSC, it's RGB and there was no special US version. Any difference would have been in the MP-1/2, not the CPC.

Bryce.
It would be nice to confirm what is different.

The CRTC values used at startup are different and define a 60Hz display. The PCB link is set for 60hz. They also have a UM6845R or MC6845, but beyond that there is no absolute confirmation.
I expect some kind of 110V power supply inside the monitor.

I would also be interested to know if the monitor is the same but the vhold has been adjusted or why would the CRTC values would need to be different?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 11:02, 14 February 18
Quote from: arnoldemu on 10:41, 14 February 18
It would be nice to confirm what is different.

The CRTC values used at startup are different and define a 60Hz display. The PCB link is set for 60hz. They also have a UM6845R or MC6845, but beyond that there is no absolute confirmation.
I expect some kind of 110V power supply inside the monitor.

I would also be interested to know if the monitor is the same but the vhold has been adjusted or why would the CRTC values would need to be different?

So you're saying that there's a US version of the Lower ROM? I only know of the 40025, what was the US version called?

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 11:25, 14 February 18
Quote from: Bryce on 11:02, 14 February 18
So you're saying that there's a US version of the Lower ROM? I only know of the 40025, what was the US version called?

Bryce.
No. 40025 already has the code to look at the 50/60hz link and set the crtc values. I guess it'll use 40025, soft968 doesn't indicate there is a different rom.

Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 11:40, 14 February 18
Quote from: arnoldemu on 11:25, 14 February 18
No. 40025 already has the code to look at the 50/60hz link and set the crtc values. I guess it'll use 40025, soft968 doesn't indicate there is a different rom.

Ok, but 50/60Hz is the scan frequency, a seperate subject to PAL/NTSC which are encoding protocols.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 13:01, 14 February 18
I quote what the soft 968 tells for people not have read it


"American CPC6128: Frame Flybacks and Interrupts
This technical note discusses the relationship between frame flybacks and interrupts on the
NTSC version of the CPC464/664/6128. Currently the only production model affected is the
American version of the CPC6128 - all other markets use PAL/SECAM models and this note
does not apply to them.
There was an error in the original hardware specification for the CPC464/664/6128 in that
the value to be loaded into the Vertical Total Adjust register in the HD6845 (register 5) was
incorrectly given as 6 for the NTSC version whereas it should have been 4. Thus the various
ROMs produced for the CPC464/664/6128, when used with an NTSC system, load an
incorrect value into the 6845 whenever a full reset occurs; for example when the machine is
first powered on, or the RESET_ENTRY firmware call is made.
PAL/SECAM systems work correctly and, fortunately, the only effect of the incorrect value
on NTSC systems is to cause the interrupt associated with frame flyback to occur at exactly
the same time as the frame flyback pulse becomes true. With the correct NTSC value the
interrupt will occur 125 microseconds after frame flyback becomes true - corresponding to
PAL/SECAM systems and the description given in Section 1.
What this means in practice is that on an American CPC6128 a program which tests the PPI
Frame Flyback signal (for example by calling MC_WAIT_FLYBACK) will not see frame
flyback become true before the interrupt occurs, but must rely upon frame flyback still being
true when the processing associated with the interrupt is complete. If the interrupt processing
takes too long, the program will appear to 'Lock Up' because it never sees frame flyback set
true.
In order to minimise the possibility of 'Lock Ups' occuring Amstrad have ensured that all
American CPC6128 machines are fitted with the type of 6845 which does not have a
programmable frame flyback pulse length. Therefore the frame flyback will last for a fixed
1000 microseconds rather than the programmed time of 500 microseconds. The 500
microseconds period is in fact quite sufficient for the system routines invoked by the frame
flyback interrupt; 1000 microseconds will allow a number of user routines to also occur at
that time without any difficulty.
Clearly though, software for American CPC6128s which has much to do at frame flyback
time, or which wishes to avoid flickering effects on the top few lines of the screen, must
arrange to place the correct NTSC value into register 5 of the 6845 using code equivalent to
the following:
SET_NTSC LD B,#F5
IN A,(C) ; Read PPI port B
AND #10 ; Inspect LK4
RET NZ ; Return if not NTSC: No action required
DI ; Need exclusive access to CRTC
LD BC.#BC05
OUT (C),C ; Set CRTC address to register 5
LD BC.#BD04
OUT (C),C ; Set Vertical Total Adjust to 4
EI ; End of exclusive access
RET"


I tells its a hardware bug anyway. But not is the rom that program the crtc at start up?.


Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 13:27, 14 February 18
So Amstrad was mis-using the PAL / NTSC terms when they actually meant 50/60Hz systems.

The ROM doesn't program anything, it's just storage for code. The CPU reads the ROM and sets the CRTC up. According to the text, they chose to use a CRTC where the frame flyback pulse length couldn't be changed so that the setup sequence wouldn't change it to a value that could cause issues on a 60Hz machine.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: pelrun on 14:47, 14 February 18
Quote from: Bryce on 13:27, 14 February 18
So Amstrad was mis-using the PAL / NTSC terms when they actually meant 50/60Hz systems.


Yes, it was super common. Most laypeople didn't care what "PAL/NTSC/SECAM" actually meant, just that their region only ever used one of them. All NTSC regions got one hardware rev of a product, and all PAL regions got another. So the terms became synonymous with the region in general usage.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 16:00, 14 February 18
Am I understanding this correctly?:

1. in the US, the monitor would use 110V AC at 60Hz.
2. the monitor uses this for it's native frame rate to control the vertical deflection.
3. the cpc has a 50/60hz pcb link. Setting this causes the firmware to send different data for the CRTC to match the native monitor display
4. There is a bug in the firmware - it used wrong value for CRTC R5 for 60hz, they worked around it by installing a CRT with a fixed vertical sync (UM6845R, MC6845).

Questions:
- The CPC monitor schematics show 220/240V AC input, what would need to be changed inside the monitor for 110VAC?
- Is the horizontal deflection rate in the monitor the same for 50 and 60hz power supplies?
- Is the horizontal deflection rate in the US CPC monitor the same rate as used in NTSC?

I wonder why the schematics in the service manuals don't show details for US monitors? Or can they be driven by 110V without breaking?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 16:44, 14 February 18
Quote from: arnoldemu on 16:00, 14 February 18
Questions:
- The CPC monitor schematics show 220/240V AC input, what would need to be changed inside the monitor for 110VAC?
- Is the horizontal deflection rate in the monitor the same for 50 and 60hz power supplies?
- Is the horizontal deflection rate in the US CPC monitor the same rate as used in NTSC?

I wonder why the schematics in the service manuals don't show details for US monitors? Or can they be driven by 110V without breaking?

Answers:
- Just the transformer and the fuse, which is a seperate plugable module anyway. No further changes required as the rest of the
  circuitry only depends on the output voltages of the transformer which would be the same. The frequency of the supply is
  irrelevant as the circuitry also only gets the rectified DC voltage.
- The CTM doesn't use the power line frequency to determine the flyback frequency, this is done with the CSync signal which
  is determined by the CRTC settings.
- That depends on what CRTC settings are made when the 60Hz jumper is set. So you tell me, what does it send to the CRTC? :)

As far as using 50 or 60Hz in the US is concerned, the CPC/CTM combination is an isolated system, so it would work fine at both
50 or 60Hz refresh rates. It would only make a difference if you were using an NTSC modulator with the CPC, then the CSync
would need to be 60Hz.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: arnoldemu on 19:34, 14 February 18
These are the differences:

;; CRTC data for 50Hz display 05c5 defb &3f, &28, &2e, &8e, &26, &00, &19, &1e, &00, &07, &00,&00,&30,&00,&c0,&00 
;; CRTC data for 60Hz display 05d5 defb &3f, &28, &2e, &8e, &1f, &06, &19, &1b, &00, &07, &00,&00,&30,&00,&c0,&00

* no difference in horizontal line length, horizontal displayed, hsync position or hsync length.
This indicates a 15.625kHz line length (compared to NTSC TV which is 15.734 and PAL TV which is 15.625 kHz).
So it's using PAL line frequency.

* it's using 262 lines per frame compared to 312 for UK CPC.

* The VSYNC position has also been adjusted so the picture is centralised in the smaller frame.

So if the same monitor was used would they have turned the vhold to compensate and adjusted the vertical size to expand it over the tube vertically?



Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 09:39, 15 February 18
Quote from: arnoldemu on 19:34, 14 February 18
So if the same monitor was used would they have turned the vhold to compensate and adjusted the vertical size to expand it over the tube vertically?

Yes, they'd have to, otherwise they'd have a 16:10 widescreen type of picture.

I assume they did this with the intention of bringing out a US TV modulator, which obviously never happened.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: 00WReX on 07:58, 18 February 18
Quote from: Terje_Norway on 18:18, 29 January 18
Hi,

You obviously have one of the newer machines, but they didn't stop production of the ORIGINAL CPC464 until January or February 91.  :o

- How do I know this You might ask ? ? ? ::)

The case is simply that I have TWO of the latest batches of machines. They have labels with 90-12 and 91-01.
These machines came from Weeske in Germany (they were official dealers in those days). Both have matching serial numbers on both the boxes and machines.
What makes these so special is that they seems to be built of "leftover" parts.

You could have a look at the following post in this thread over 7 years ago.

http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/cpc-mainboard-versions/msg7334/#msg7334

Yours

Terje Grind
NORWAY

Hi All,
Sorry to jump back to this post, but while having a look over ebay, I stumbled across this 464 for sale in France and it has one of those serial numbers that Terje mentions.
The auction is close to ending, but will still be visible via the link for a while.
I will also copy one of the pictures here for reference...

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Amstrad-CPC464/273064766562?hash=item3f93edac62:g:8m8AAOSwu6tafLMI

[ This attachment cannot be displayed inline in 'Print Page' view ]

Cheers,
Shane
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: leZone on 11:33, 20 March 18
00WReX : intestesting this late 464 version ! (it's an english computer version on your link)

Quote from: arnoldemu on 10:39, 14 February 18
MC6845 or UM6845R.
My CPC 6128 Indescomp to the USA market have a : MC6845P


On european standard CTM-644-2 monitor (220v/50Hz), it works with the right colors (so PAL i mean, i dont think CTM is able to analyse NTSC color mode), and with 50Hz frequency (no need to change the vhold)

All photos here : https://acpc.me/#ACME/DOCS_TECHNIQUES/DISSECTION/USA/CPC6128/550903356_Indescomp_USA


Sorry for mother board, i'm not able to make better photos of it, because the metal shield is soldered on the board and i don't want to destroy the original state of this piece of history

I never see the "usa monitor", is some one have it ? Does it exist ?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 18:57, 16 September 20
Just few discoverys.


Zpto  Is a incremental number in all products in amstrad. Every little pcb of cpc pcw pc ppc etc.


They assigned it in the order they developed it. Every discover + 1.


It begins  in cpc with z70100. When it reach z70999->it change to z80000.


So when amstrad go into 90 years. They arrive to z90999. And they got out of numbers!. So they change the system to these new of the plus computers.


The number mc in the boards follow the same line of ptno. Are every board developed in the order they developed it. Cpc-pcw-pc-pcw etc....


And in 664 and 6128(except cost down). Cpcs have 3 consecutive numbers pcb+led pcb+volume pcb. 





Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: VincentGR on 23:08, 06 February 21
This is a cost down 6128 (MC0100A) as we have on the wiki but, there are some chips on the right on different positions.


http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:CPC6128_PCB_Top_(Z80330_MC0100A).jpg



Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: gerald on 10:27, 07 February 21
Quote from: VincentGR on 23:08, 06 February 21
This is a cost down 6128 (MC0100A) as we have on the wiki but, there are some chips on the right on different positions.


http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:CPC6128_PCB_Top_(Z80330_MC0100A).jpg (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:CPC6128_PCB_Top_(Z80330_MC0100A).jpg)
The board on the wiki is a Frankenstein one.
It has memory in both possible chip packages
- 2 banks of 2 IC of 64kx4 -> the 4 chips missing on your photo)
- 2 banks of 8 IC of 64kx1 -> the 2 column of 8 chips on the right side of the board
Only one of each bank need to be assembled, and most (if not all) board only used the 64kx1 arrangement (i've seen a 464 cost down using 64kx4 ram through)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 12:22, 07 February 21
@VincentGR (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1053) , if you don't mind, I'll add a link your picture in the Mainboard versions page, for completeness.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 12:51, 07 February 21
Quote from: robcfg on 12:22, 07 February 21
@VincentGR (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1053) , if you don't mind, I'll add a link your picture in the Mainboard versions page, for completeness.


Please add the plus prototype too.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: VincentGR on 14:27, 07 February 21
Quote from: robcfg on 12:22, 07 February 21
@VincentGR (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1053) , if you don't mind, I'll add a link your picture in the Mainboard versions page, for completeness.


That's the reason I uploaded this here  ;D
Too bad I don't have this mobo here so I could scan her.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 13:24, 19 March 22
Just if some is interested, retrogamer spain come out yesterday  and it  include an article about the amstrad prototype that is in spain that have the original power supply. 



https://www.kioskoymas.com/Publicacion/retrogamer/Retrogamer




Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: TotO on 22:35, 19 March 22
Yes, I have read it. Very nice done!
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 15:33, 20 March 22
Our dear friend and fellow member of the CPCWiki @deepfb is the author of the Retrogamer Magazine's article and asked the owner of the prototype permission to upload the pictures here.

We got it and you can see now the PCB pictures of the Z70100 motherboard prototype and the Gate Array Simulator here: https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions#CPC464_Prototype

There are some more pictures coming, which will be uploaded to the CPC Prototypes page shortly.

Enjoy!
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 18:28, 20 March 22
Just curiosity, compared the board of the z70100 gate array simulator and the comercial board..

At the right of the pre-cpc are two points marked "led" and "sw5".


I'n the comercial board these two points are there but there are unlabel.

What mark these led?. And what do the sw?

And these extrange 3 letter marked in emulator board it tell "Ram"?.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 23:09, 20 March 22
Good evening!

Here are the beautiful pictures of the CPC prototype by Jorge Selfa: https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/CPC_Prototypes

@dragon , The Led and Swi points seem to be remnants of the prototype boards that went into version 1 motherboards. Starting with version 2 motherboards, they were removed.

Regarding the 3 letters you mention, they are probably the logo of the PCB manufacturer.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Bryce on 10:29, 21 March 22
Do you have pictures of the PSU too?

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: Gryzor on 10:30, 21 March 22
Awesome - very interesting and great quality photos, please do thank Jorge!!

@Bryce - why is the PSU of interest?
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 17:00, 21 March 22
https://youtu.be/5ca8oz6wwTU
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 21:34, 21 March 22
Quote from: Bryce on 10:29, 21 March 22Do you have pictures of the PSU too?

Bryce.
Now we do  ;)

https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/CPC_Prototypes

I asked if we could have some pictures of the innards of the PSU, but it seems to be held by some flimsy clips, so the owner is not keen on opening it.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: leZone on 18:30, 13 May 22
Hello !
I found a new motherboard wich is not on the wiki !   ;D

MC0026A
from a CPC 6128



Sadly, it's not mine
It was buy as is, solo board in germany. The serial/mfrs is not known. Plastic version of the case is not known.

I know the owner, i try to encourage him to make hd photos for us
Board have centronics ports and a shield. Shield have solded point near power switch, wich makes me say it's perhaps an indescomp 'usa' model.

This board write Solavox on boot. Impossible to know for the moment if someone sold the logo jumper for fun, or if it's a real indescomp from october or november 85 (i saw only one october 85 indescomp, it comes with MC00026B board, for november i have no information, and for september 85 it's MC0016A board with Amstrad on boot).

 
By the way, now i own an indescomp 'usa' monitor GT65 ! It was converted to 220V (because they was never sold in usa as we allready know). I saw a second one exist. I never see any CTM644 indescomp model for now. All the photos are on acme : acpc.me website : https://acpc.me/#ACME/HARDWARE_MODELES_DE_CPC/[USA]USA/GT65_USA_55-09-02821


 
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: leZone on 18:34, 13 May 22
Quote from: robcfg on 21:34, 21 March 22https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/CPC_Prototypes
I asked if we could have some pictures of the innards of the PSU, but it seems to be held by some flimsy clips, so the owner is not keen on opening it.
I wanted to ask for something about the 'light grey 464' :
It's not a prototype. It's a development kit. There is some wich exists and are the same as far i know. It is make with an industrial way, not like a prototype. Do you think it can be possible to rename all these 'prototype' webpages as 'devkit' ? thank you  :)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: robcfg on 13:04, 14 May 22
I don't think that would be adequate.

To begin with, DevKit is a modern term. In the 80s, there were programmers, not developers.

Then, the light grey 464 has none of the attributes of a DevKit, like extra ram, debugging facilities, extra connection ports, etc...

It could be though as a preproduction run unit, but seeing that the Gate Array was still a prototype, thus could change before manufacturing, it could affect the design of the motherboard too. You can see that following revisions of the GA imply changes on the motherboards.

Take it from someone that has worked with DS, Wii, Switch, PS4 and PSP DevKits, had access to PS2 and XBox Dev and Debug kits and has 2 Dreamcast DevKits and a Debug kit.

I totally get that you'll consider it to be a DevKit, because it was sent to companies to start creating software for the machine, but it's a preproduction run at most.

Finally, everyone is used to calling it a prototype, so I think changing the name would only cause confusion.
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: dragon on 02:28, 15 May 22
Quote from: leZone on 18:30, 13 May 22Hello !
I found a new motherboard wich is not on the wiki !  ;D

MC0026A
from a CPC 6128



Sadly, it's not mine
It was buy as is, solo board in germany. The serial/mfrs is not known. Plastic version of the case is not known.

I know the owner, i try to encourage him to make hd photos for us
Board have centronics ports and a shield. Shield have solded point near power switch, wich makes me say it's perhaps an indescomp 'usa' model.

This board write Solavox on boot. Impossible to know for the moment if someone sold the logo jumper for fun, or if it's a real indescomp from october or november 85 (i saw only one october 85 indescomp, it comes with MC00026B board, for november i have no information, and for september 85 it's MC0016A board with Amstrad on boot).

 
By the way, now i own an indescomp 'usa' monitor GT65 ! It was converted to 220V (because they was never sold in usa as we allready know). I saw a second one exist. I never see any CTM644 indescomp model for now. All the photos are on acme : acpc.me website : https://acpc.me/#ACME/HARDWARE_MODELES_DE_CPC/[USA]USA/GT65_USA_55-09-02821


 

Probably was November because the only solavox on boot  for now are from November. I view one of october in ebay. And have a working picture  with amstrad at boot. 
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: TotO on 10:21, 15 May 22
Quote from: leZone on 18:30, 13 May 22I found a new motherboard wich is not on the wiki! ;D

MC0026A
from a CPC 6128
Yes. It was supposed to exist, because the MC0026B. It will be great to have the full picture. 8)
Title: Re: CPC Mainboard Versions
Post by: leZone on 19:48, 15 May 22
Quote from: robcfg on 13:04, 14 May 22I don't think that would be adequate.
I totally get that you'll consider it to be a DevKit, because it was sent to companies to start creating software for the machine, but it's a preproduction run at most.
Finally, everyone is used to calling it a prototype, so I think changing the name would only cause confusion.
ok, i understand your opinion and i agree with your arguments
(but it's very technical, and sadly some dumb people search on internet, call this a prototype like it's the only one on the earth, and try to sell this with insane price)

Quote from: dragon on 02:28, 15 May 22Probably was November because the only solavox on boot  for now are from November. I view one of october in ebay. And have a working picture  with amstrad at boot.
take a look to your MP for further information  :)  ; i saw 6128 551001261 solavox on boot

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