UPDATE 23/12/20159 pieces available see pics and video below on post.
[attach=2][attach=3][attach=4][attach=5][attach=6]
Hi,
I decided to make a new topic for the DK'tronics Mouse interface.
So i made the first prototype, you'll find the pictures attached.
Good news is the schematics i made from the original (thank you again Craigsbar for your gift :) ) are alright.
bad news are : i assumed the numbers on the PCB (8,4,3,2,1 and 6) near the DB9 port were the pin number ... Well it is not.
6 and 8 marks are ok, but 1-->3, 2-->4, 3-->1 and 4-->2 (the color of the wires on the picture of the cpcwiki helped me a lot)...
So it works, but i have now to order the PCB ;D
Price wil be 30 euros without shipping.
Also, i'm a little disappointed, i thought the mouse would be more accurate with a Genius Mouse. It reacts almost the same as a PS/2 or USB mouse adapter.
Good news is that if you have a ST Mouse, it works well.
I want one :)
Quote from: talrek on 16:43, 22 November 15
Also, i'm a little disappointed, i thought the mouse would be more accurate with a Genius Mouse. It reacts almost the same as a PS/2 or USB mouse adapter.
Good news is that if you have a ST Mouse, it works well.
I think the kempston could be more accurate, well at least it remembers the movement so you only need to read it once per frame.
It would be simpler to make than the symbiface 2 mouse hardware and the schematic can be worked out from the Spectrum one with small modifications for cpc.
Symbiface2 mouse hardware appears to capture and communicate with the ps/2 mouse and record data in a buffer to be given to the cpc when read.
Of course, I want one!! :D :D
I'd still rather have a symbiface 2 type mouse. I think I'll pass on this one as I have Bryce adaptors a symbiface 2.
Oh and I have yet to find my genius mouse as well!
Hmmm.... 30 Euros.... I could get an X-MEM for that price. Since my cash is limited a the moment I guess I can't afford it now. :(
Cool little layout. Pity about the pinout confusion. First rule of reverse engineering: Don't trust the PCB markings! :D
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 09:46, 23 November 15
Cool little layout. Pity about the pinout confusion. First rule of reverse engineering: Don't trust the PCB markings! :D
Bryce.
Yes i confirm, first time and last time i make that mistake !
Also i didn't think that it will so long to reverse engineer, i thought it would be faster to do...
And i don't speak about solder these 4 close SMD Ics.. Soldering a MF2 clone, is a piece of cake.
Good news is my schematics and the Eagle files will be correct when i will publish it to the wiki. Btw who have the permission to modify Dk'tronics interface article ?
Quote from: TFM on 23:42, 22 November 15
Hmmm.... 30 Euros.... I could get an X-MEM for that price. Since my cash is limited a the moment I guess I can't afford it now. :(
I'm going to see what i can do, i'm going to order some parts in china, it should lower the costs. I order in France or Germany in most of case, but DB9 sockets are pretty expensive. When you buy it by 10 or 20 in china it is a lot cheaper..
I'll let you know... but the most expensive parts are : 4013 and 4047 in a SMD package...
Don't go over the top to try and reduce the price by a few cents. €30 is a perfectly reasonable price for this device. If it's too much for anyone, then they'll have to live without one, simple as that.
Bryce.
Quote from: talrek on 10:14, 23 November 15I order in France or Germany in most of case, but DB9 sockets are pretty expensive. When you buy it by 10 or 20 in china it is a lot cheaper.. I'll let you know... but the most expensive parts are : 4013 and 4047 in a SMD package...
For informations, on Reichelt.com (Germany) the 4013 IC cost 0.20€ and the 4047 IC cost 0.26€.
SubD-9 connectors cost 0.14€ each... Yes, your full parts list is more close to 5€ here.
I should order them with mine to save some shipping fees, if required. ;)
Quote from: Bryce on 10:49, 23 November 15€30 is a perfectly reasonable price for this device.
As you know, I not agree. 8)
Except if you conciderate the CPC to be not a hobby and OK to pay each games/tools some hundreds euros each...
Quote from: TotO on 11:49, 23 November 15
For informations, on Reichelt.com (Germany) the 4013 IC cost 0.20€ and the 4047 IC cost 0.26€.
SubD-9 connectors cost 0.14€ each... Yes, your full parts list is more close to 5€ here.
I should order them with mine to save some shipping fees, if required. ;)
As you know, I not agree. 8)
Except if you conciderate the CPC to be not a hobby and OK to pay each games/tools some hundreds euros each...
Yes, because you don't believe that a persons time and effort should be rewarded, but that's up to you.
Bryce.
There is a balance...
Indeed. And in this case I believe €30 is a good balance.
Bryce.
Sure, I can imagine.
Based on my limited knowledge parts are less than 5 Euros in this case, so triple the price to compensate for some used time, then 15 Euros would be a total reasonable price. I never would ask for money which I put in a CPC project, because I do it because I like to do it. It's fun for me. But every person has his/her own motivation. And it's ok. I'm just getting annoyed by some suborn people who like to tell me what's right or wrong or what's reasonable or not. And as told: Please everybody do as you want.
In this case I will have to live without it and so FutureOS and my games will. I would have liked to add support for this device, but on the other hand it seems so hard to get the appropriate mouse to the interface anyway - and not for cheap either. Mouse and interface it 70 Euros, that's more than half an SF2. Sorry, out of balance for me. :)
The calculation of €5 was a bit convenient. The PCB price is missing, the price of consumables is missing, the delivery costs of all components was ignored. My rough guess would be that the entire device costs about €17 to make, without allowing for any wastage, broken parts, devices lost in the post etc.
As far as FutureOS support is concerned, the AMX driver already exists for FutureOS and it would be the same driver for this device.
Bryce.
Sorry, but isn't this mouse proportional?
Quote from: TFM on 18:24, 23 November 15
Sorry, but isn't this mouse proportional?
'fraid not. It it more comfortable that the amx mouse, but in use it's just another JoyMouse with only 2 buttons :(
Craig
Ah, ok, my bad. sorry, got that wrong.
Quote from: CraigsBar on 18:27, 23 November 15
'fraid not. It it more comfortable that the amx mouse, but in use it's just another JoyMouse with only 2 buttons :(
Craig
Genius Mouse with Dk'tronics interface is only 1 button :o not 2,It is the left button to be more specific.
The mouse is indeed not proportional, it is basically an AMX mouse, i find it not more comfortable... but i think it is a matter of taste.
It should work on the Future OS, i will try it and post a video of it.
For the price just think about:
- The time i spent to retro engineer and do the schematics, and layers
- The time i spent in searching the right components
- The cost of parts, PCB (failed one so i had to reorder more)
- The time i spent into soldering (it is long due to 4 SMD Ic's, and size of the PCB) The time i spend on one PCB is the same than a MF2
- Of course i spend almost a day to find why the prototype didn't work
- The tests
With all that time spent, i had prefer to be with my wife and children. i didn't think it was so time-eater. I don't know for you but to me it is hard to put a price on the time i didn't spend with others. And this for only
10 interfaces, because it is a piece of specific hardware people won't want.
Not like X-MASS, X-MEM or other stuffs cheaper indeed. But because of the volume of the sales, it pay you the time you spent. :)
Sorry i had to say something, i hesitate into answering all of this.
Hi,
The interfaces are built and available to purchase
There are 9 pieces, i don't think there will be more. You can see the picture on this post. And also a video.
I will make a PM to those who said they were interested on it.
Price is 30€
Postage is :
France = 2,50€
EU = 5,50€
Worlwide = 6,50€
[attach=2][attach=3][attach=4][attach=5][attach=6]
Awesome!! I already paid mine! Thank you very much!! :-* :-* :-*
Where can i buy this interface? This is my real username.
Quote from: talrek on 16:22, 23 December 15
The interfaces are built and available to purchase
yaaaay! PM sent
I want to buy one for me, thanks.
Wow! I want one!! ;D
Shiping charges to Spain?
Payment sent. Waiting to receive my item :)
Payment sent too.
Thanks.
I want to buy one for me. Send me PayPal address. Thanks :)
Well i'm happy of this success, i thought this little piece of hardware was to specific to be of any interest for most people.
Well only three pieces remains.
@talrek (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1195) mon ami, is this compatible with your adapter now? Atari 520 1040 Computer St STFM Ste Mega Falcon TT Speed Mouse Brand New | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/151897465758?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&fromMakeTrack=true)
Quote from: dodogildo on 15:51, 24 December 15
@talrek (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1195) mon ami, is this compatible with your adapter now? Atari 520 1040 Computer St STFM Ste Mega Falcon TT Speed Mouse Brand New | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/151897465758?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&fromMakeTrack=true)
Never tested this specific mouse. i tested with the original ( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Atari_st_mouse.jpg/220px-Atari_st_mouse.jpg (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Atari_st_mouse.jpg/220px-Atari_st_mouse.jpg)) and the Genius mouse which works on the Atari ST too.
So my guess is every working mouse on Atari ST should work on an Amstrad CPC with dk'Tronics interface.
I already pay. Thanks!! ;D ;D
Payment sent, Thanks!!
Quote from: talrek on 16:02, 24 December 15
and the Genius mouse which works on the Atari ST too.
So my guess is every working mouse on Atari ST should work on an Amstrad CPC with dk'Tronics interface.
Allright mate, just got myself this beauty ;)
[attach=2]Hope this and yours, they arrive swiftly, at the same time! :)
Quote from: dodogildo on 22:59, 24 December 15
Allright mate, just got myself this beauty ;)
[attach=2]
Hope this and yours, they arrive swiftly, at the same time! :)
8) 8)
Quote from: TFM on 16:12, 23 November 15
Mouse and interface it 70 Euros, that's more than half an SF2.
That's assuming the latter is available (not indication of how on http://www.symbos.de/sf2.htm (http://www.symbos.de/sf2.htm) AFAICS, though Prodatron briefly offered a few in 2012).
Is it, or even its successor? (With progress reports from Hardwareentwicklung | Dr. Zed's evil Lab (http://dr-zed.de/?cat=5) ending in 2008 and then reported complete hardware-wise in What has/will become of the Symbiface3 ? (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/what-haswill-become-of-the-symbiface3/msg27032/#msg27032) 2011 thanks to your efforts).
Ask @Prodatron (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=13) :)
Quote from: TFM on 15:58, 04 January 16
Ask @Prodatron (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=13) :)
Who had 0 "SymbiFace 2" for each of us last (long ago) time around? ???
Well, there are threads such as above where he'll hopefully offer whatever comes up (if/whenever it does)...
Quote from: OCT on 17:02, 04 January 16
Who had 0 "SymbiFace 2" for each of us last (long ago) time around? ???
Well, there are threads such as above where he'll hopefully offer whatever comes up (if/whenever it does)...
Well, they seem to have ended up here for a ridiculous price...
http://www.spielquader.de/navi.php?a=761&lang=eng (http://www.spielquader.de/navi.php?a=761&lang=eng)
Therefore I suppose an X-MEM, X-MASS, 'AtariST-Mouse with adapter' solution. Reason it's proportional, works as well as the SF2 mouse. And that's cheap.
Sorry for derailing the thread here a bit, the Genius mouse is joy-compatible, BUT the video is really awesome!!! I would take it if I would have more cash. :) :)
Quote from: TFM on 18:38, 04 January 16
Therefore I suppose an X-MEM, X-MASS, 'AtariST-Mouse with adapter' solution. Reason it's proportional, works as well as the SF2 mouse. And that's cheap.
Only that solution is not compatible with The Advanced OCP Art Studio, as far as I understood. All I wanna do is to be able to draw directly on CPC.
Quote from: dodogildo on 20:38, 04 January 16
Only that solution is not compatible with The Advanced OCP Art Studio, as far as I understood. All I wanna do is to be able to draw directly on CPC.
Use G-Paint, better than OCP. :)
Quote from: TFM on 18:38, 04 January 16
Well, they seem to have ended up here for a ridiculous price...
Indeed, how come they've got 3 pieces of SF2 while everybody else is craving for it. Look http://www.spielquader.de/navi.php?a=853&lang=eng
This is sick :)
Quote from: dodogildo on 21:21, 04 January 16
Indeed, how come they've got 3 pieces of SF2 while everybody else is craving for it. Look http://www.spielquader.de/navi.php?a=853&lang=eng (http://www.spielquader.de/navi.php?a=853&lang=eng)
Bough when available, stock then sell years later. Thats called speculation.
Quote from: dodogildo on 21:21, 04 January 16
This is sick :)
What is really sick is the 'recommended retail price' of 349 euro that try to convince you that 299 euro is a bargain (120 euro was the price for the 2nd batch)
Maketing bullshit in all its glory :picard:
As far as I know, the owners of that site know Dr Zed personally, they probably got some of the last unused PCBs directly from him later.
Bryce.
Is cloning the SF2 possible, ethical, and of course feasible?
Quote from: dodogildo on 22:52, 04 January 16
Is cloning the SF2 possible, ethical, and of course feasible?
My thoughts about this :
- Possible : yes
- Ethical : not without , conceptor authorization :)
That makes me wonder why if Dr Zed has no time to make new batch, does he not ask someone else to build this interface ? This way there is no more speculation (by keeping selling those devices the right price....)
Quote from: dodogildo on 20:38, 04 January 16
Only that solution is not compatible with The Advanced OCP Art Studio, as far as I understood. All I wanna do is to be able to draw directly on CPC.
Well as you can see on the video, i may have not taken 2 days to draw something, but it is really not enough accurate for me to draw... Best may is a proportional mouse...
Quote from: talrek on 10:50, 05 January 16
My thoughts about this :
- Possible : yes
- Ethical : not without , conceptor authorization :)
That makes me wonder why if Dr Zed has no time to make new batch, does he not ask someone else to build this interface ? This way there is no more speculation (by keeping selling those devices the right price....)
Reversing those CPLDs is going to be a massive pain though.
Maybe Dr Zed didn't know anyone else is willing. You could ask him?
I asked Dr. Zed for the CPLD files a while back (2013 I think). He never answered the e-mail.
Bryce.
Cloning the SF2 is not really a good thing, if not redesigned. (like the CPC Booster in its time)
The board is big and require an external power supply. Not easy to use for everyone.
Quote from: Bryce on 11:41, 05 January 16
I asked Dr. Zed for the CPLD files a while back (2013 I think). He never answered the e-mail.
Bryce.
Dumping the CPLD files from an original is not possible ?
Quote from: TotO on 13:44, 05 January 16
Cloning the SF2 is not really a good thing, if not redesigned. (like the CPC Booster in its time)
The board is big and require an external power supply. Not easy to use for everyone.
But if CPLD files get obtained, then you hardware magicians may create a modern (mini?) SF, right?
The SF2 RAM and "ROM" are not CPC friendly (only work with SymbOS).
So, I don't see why it will be interresting to clone the CPLD logic...
TBH it would be easier (and better?) to just create a symbiface compatible mouse and RTC board. The rest (IDE, RAM, ROM) is provided by TotO's X-MASS and X-MEM. And the X-MEM has a programmable LowerRom, which SF2 does not.
Kind of... you got a good point there for sure. New hardware should also be compatible to previous solutions, if possible and if this does not mean to take some kind of disadvantage. About proportional mice I guess the SF2 is common, but maybe also the AtariST mouse which can be used at the joystick port (with adapter). The SF2 mouse leaves the joystick port free. For the ST mouse there is the awesome great G-Paint program. Well... let's say SF2 mouse wins. :)
About RTCs.... aside of the SF2 RTC the Dobbertin RTC is great too. Here I favor the batch of RTCs from dxs, because the battery can be replaced, and it has support for CP/M and BASIC too, the SF2 RTC sadly not. Just my thoughts... :)
Quote from: talrek on 13:45, 05 January 16
Dumping the CPLD files from an original is not possible ?
I'm not sure whether the chip is protected or not, I've never tried and it's not an IC I'm familiar with.
Bryce.
Back the day Pentagon and Workaholic stole the design of the IDE part and tried to sell their own version of it, so it's obviously doable.
I received mine while I was on Holidays, it was already in the lab when I went back! :D It is already installed, but I did not have time to try it! Thank you! :)
Mine just arrived too, thanks @talrek (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1195) ! I'll give it a try next week with my (almost) new Genius mouse.
Exciting!
I received mine too. Thanks a lot @talrek (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1195).
I have to just buy a Genius mouse :).
The interface i have tested with Atari ST mouse on SymbOS. Works fine ;)
It works great, thank you @talrek
Here are some photos :)
Quote from: dodogildo on 23:15, 11 January 16
It works great, thank you @talrek (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1195)
Here are some photos :)
You're welcome since you draw better than me :P also too sad from what i heard about istanbul today :'(
Quote from: talrek on 14:24, 12 January 16
also too sad from what i heard about istanbul today :'(
Thank you. So sad :(
Quote from: TotO on 18:57, 05 January 16
The SF2 RAM and "ROM" are not CPC friendly (only work with SymbOS).
So, I don't see why it will be interresting to clone the CPLD logic...
Please explain this... The sf2 is as friendly as the xmem. I use mine on the plus and CPC all the time and it is as friendly with amsdos and CPM as the xmem.
Quote from: CraigsBar on 16:07, 12 January 16
Please explain this... The sf2 is as friendly as the xmem. I use mine on the plus and CPC all the time and it is as friendly with amsdos and CPM as the xmem.
The SF2 RAM not work with 464 and 664 and, at less, do not support the C3 mode.
The SF2 "ROM" only work under SymbOS and can't be used as standard CPC ROM board.
I'll test on a 464 tonight, but the ROM statement is blatantly not true, I have 32 ROMs (including the whole protext suite) installed in mine and they work perfectly on the CPC 6128 and plus, from amsdos and with 576k ram. Either I mis understand your statement, or you are wrong :(
You can test on your 464, the RAM will not work properly. (ask to Prodatron, he will said the same)
About the "ROM" (backed-up RAM), I have always read that was not on the same I/O port. But, it look to be wrong. 8)
Quote from: TotO on 17:52, 12 January 16
You can test on your 464, the RAM will not work properly. (ask to Prodatron, he will said the same)
About the "ROM" (backed-up RAM), I have always read that was not on the same I/O port. But, it look to be wrong. 8)
As I recall at some point I did try this and the RAM did appear on the 464, there was some oddity with it IIRC (I think perhaps about the amount reported... it was 512K maybe) but it was basically working.
And the ROM definitely works for general ROM usage.
Quote from: Munchausen on 11:21, 13 January 16
As I recall at some point I did try this and the RAM did appear on the 464, there was some oddity with it IIRC (I think perhaps about the amount reported... it was 512K maybe) but it was basically working.
The symbiface RAM is not 464 compatible.
This has been discussed there : FIRMWARE 3.1 / Lower ROM / Megaflash (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/firmware-3-1-megaflash/msg62789/#msg62789)
Ah that's right, I got a display of 560K from FW3.something (as I reported in that thread!)
I thought I'd reported this and got comments back somewhere, but couldn't find the thread before my last post - didn't remember that it wasn't actually working :picard: !
EDIT - I wonder if a mod can be made on the SF to fix this?
Quote from: Munchausen on 15:56, 13 January 16
EDIT - I wonder if a mod can be made on the SF to fix this?
Having no schematics nor PLD content information, a fix is unlikely. The 464 compatibility is quite tricky !
Also, the ROM side of the Symbiface use ROM slot incomplete decoding, which make it incompatible with C4CPC. For this issue, an external fix is possible. But it would be better to do it within the PLD.
I'll take an external fix please. ;)
Are we totally off-topic? Ok, so the SF2 works with a regular Cart, right? Well, it does for me... so... where is the problem with the other one???
Quote from: TFM on 20:36, 15 January 16
Are we totally off-topic? Ok, so the SF2 works with a regular Cart, right? Well, it does for me... so... where is the problem with the other one???
Jump to the related topic : Expansion Wierdness. (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/expansion-wierdness/) ;)
Ok, instead of a JP I did a CALL, so I'm back here...
Can this dk'tronics mouse interface be patched to use the second fire button. It would imho require only to add a wire, or do I forget something?
Yes. It is a cloned board, not an improved version.
I suggest that you have to add two wires:
- pin9 from the "mouse connector" to 74LS367 pin14
- pin13 from 74LS367 to the "cpc connector" pin7
Should work. (untested)
Thanks TotO! That's great news for all people using it! :)
Hi,
i would like to share a problem with you.
Angelcaio (member of this forum) bought me an adapter. But it acts weird. You can see it in this video :
Dropbox - 2016-01-06 09.04.47.mp4 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/n25ikjd9mxuvle4/2016-01-06%2009.04.47.mp4?dl=0)
Do you know how this can be possible, just moving the hand in front of the adapter and the arrows appears :o :o
So he sent it back to me and when i test it in a cpc6128, cpc6128+ and a cpc464 everything is fine i don't have a problem !!!
any explanation ?
Oh, that's ok, it always start that way. Mind is over matter, and in this days lots of people develop special powers, but have troubles to control them at the beginning. You shouldn't have talked about it, they will hunt and catch him now. :o
Quote from: TFM on 17:34, 11 February 16
Oh, that's ok, it always start that way. Mind is over matter, and in this days lots of people develop special powers, but have troubles to control them at the beginning. You shouldn't have talked about it, they will hunt and catch him now. :o
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
More serious.... I encountered this once with the sound sampling part of one of the first CPC Boosters. Somehow I guess it's connected with electrical fields. Maybe its enough to touch some metal of a heater of stove to get rid off the additional/missing electrons.
Reply withdrawn
Ray
Really is a great work of talrek
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