As part of my investigations into new RAM expansion possibilities, I did some playing about with a standard DK'tronics 64K expansion, first converting it to 256K and then converting it to a 256K silicon disc. I know some of this information was probably available somewhere else, but I thought I'd document it properly with pictures in case anyone was interested.
I will probably follow up later with a 512K conversion of the same device when I have time.
You can find it all here: http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Upgrading_a_Dk%27tronics_RAM_Expansion (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Upgrading_a_Dk%27tronics_RAM_Expansion)
Bryce.
Now this is VERY nice indeed +1 ^_^
Niiice! the silicon disc mod looks simple enough that even i could do it ;D Still, do you need a additional silicon box (i think ive seen pics of silicon disc as a box set of 2) or is it all "onboard"?
The second Silicon Box was a simple ROMCard for just one ROM. The ROM Image is available on the Wiki page, so you just need to install that on your MegaFlash or any other ROMBoard and you'll have everything. The ROM adds some RSXs to allow you to Load/Save from the RAM as if it's a disc.
Bryce.
Niiiice! Bonus points for creating a nice page AND linking to it properly :) Thanks!
Well it's kind of pointless writing a page and then nobody finding it because it's not linked to :D
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 19:38, 01 November 11The second Silicon Box was a simple ROMCard for just one ROM. The ROM Image is available on the Wiki page, so you just need to install that on your MegaFlash or any other ROMBoard and you'll have everything. The ROM adds some RSXs to allow you to Load/Save from the RAM as if it's a disc.
Now I wonder if a second-gen "MegaFlash Mk II" shouldn't integrate dk'tronics-compatible 4MB circuitry like Yarek's (http://8bit.yarek.pl/upgrade/cpc.cpc4mb/index.html) all on one board...
Great idea. Let me know when you've got it finished, I'll buy one :)
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 19:38, 01 November 11
The second Silicon Box was a simple ROMCard for just one ROM. The ROM Image is available on the Wiki page, so you just need to install that on your MegaFlash or any other ROMBoard and you'll have everything. The ROM adds some RSXs to allow you to Load/Save from the RAM as if it's a disc.
Bryce.
Well, I would suggest to use Dobbertins RDOS, because if provide a RAM DRIVE C, even compatible to games :-) And it has 444 KB free.
In addition it works with both CP/Ms :-)
@Bryce: Great piece of work!!! I can see the art of making in it :-DDD
Quote from: Bryce on 22:18, 01 November 11
Well it's kind of pointless writing a page and then nobody finding it because it's not linked to :D
Bryce.
Precisely my thinking, but it's not that obvious to many users. Many editors think that once they hit Save it goes into the collective subconscious :D
Quote from: Bryce on 19:38, 01 November 11
The second Silicon Box was a simple ROMCard for just one ROM. The ROM Image is available on the Wiki page, so you just need to install that on your MegaFlash or any other ROMBoard and you'll have everything. The ROM adds some RSXs to allow you to Load/Save from the RAM as if it's a disc.
Bryce.
That makes sense, thanks!
Quote from: Bryce on 22:30, 01 November 11
[MegaFlash (internal if it has to be) with Yarek-style 4MB RAM] Great idea. Let me know when you've got it finished, I'll buy one :)
I trust that'll be much better if you buy the parts and make them fit together nicely. ;)
By the way, as you were hinting at forthcoming cartridge work in your NoRecess interview (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?topic=2880.0), DangerousPrototypes.com (http://dangerousprototypes.com) have been busy discussing Bluetooth integration on microcontrollers lately (as in "remote-flashable EEPROMs").
Interesting. I think I would still go for a USB solution, due to the extra cost of adding Bluetooth, and all the handshaking/setting up involved with BT. USB is Plug it in, transfer. BT is Pairing/pin code etc. BT makes sense for portable devices, but does it really make sense for two devices that have to be plugged in to the power and are most likely in the same room?
The hints I made in the interview were more aimed at an ACID replacement and possibly something close to the C64 EasyFlash.
Bryce.
Blue teeth? Well, if you like Wii controllers ;-)
I agree with Bryce. BT has been a pain in the arse even for devices (like mobiles) that greatly benefit from it. I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot joystick cable.
Oh, USB isn't better. It's a pain in the back to program proper USB protocols. Sure the user will never feel it, it just works. Dr. Zed talked to me about this in more detail, so I'm not jealous to people who like to program hardware for USB (doesn't matter if a microcontroller of VHDL).
USB integration was a lot of hard work on the old µPs where you had to do everything by hand, but new decent µPs have most of the work done for you and even supply sample drivers. Eitherway, what's important is the amount of work/hassle that the USER has, not the developer! ie: The developer does lots of work so that the user doesn't have to. If you save on the development work, you have a product that's really difficult for the user, what use is that!?
Besides, BT is way more complicated to program than USB.
Bryce.
Sure, it must be easy to use and nobody can expect the user to complete the developpers work, no doubt.
But in past this was not the case for all CPC expansions, especially non-commercial stuff. However latest releases of hardware had a high level of the "user-babysitting-facter" or "convenience-factor". YKWIM :)
I didn't mean that the user should finish the development, I was more talking about the developer taking the easy option at the expense of the user experience: ie:
A PS/2 mouse interface is easier to develop than a touchscreen, but an iPhone that needs a PS/2 mouse attached would not be as user-friendly as the touchscreen solution.
The same can be said for USB on a CPC device. USB: plug and play, user plugs it in an it all works. RS232: User needs to mess about with baud-rate settings and comport numbers. BT: User needs to pair devices and enter pin codes. So the USB solution might be more difficult to develop than say RS232 communications, but the user experience is better because the developer put in some more work.
Of course when the booster was designed USB wasn't an option, but new expansions should reflect current standards to improve the user experience.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 22:25, 08 November 11
The same can be said for USB on a CPC device. USB: plug and play, user plugs it in an it all works. RS232: User needs to mess about with baud-rate settings and comport numbers. BT: User needs to pair devices and enter pin codes. So the USB solution might be more difficult to develop than say RS232 communications, but the user experience is better because the developer put in some more work.
For the CPC (and I'm NOT talking about the PC!) this all depends on software. One device can be as easy as the others to be used. For CPC imagine an BT device: You just bring it into the room with the CPC and you do nothing, because the software recognices it and pairs with it. The same for RS232 devices: if all soft for the CPC (not PC!) uses the same parameters, it's plug & play :)
Quote from: TFM/FS on 01:07, 09 November 11
For CPC imagine an BT device: You just bring it into the room with the CPC and you do nothing, because the software recognices it and pairs with it.
That was the whole point of my proposal to use Bluetooth (or whatever RF technology comes to mind) on a remote-reflashable cartridge:
No wired connections from which a CPC might fry&die, no hassle unplugging everything time and again on aging connectors.
Of course this implies the protocol stack is readily implemented (rather than having to be developed from scratch), but that's what it looks like from the sites inclined to such tinkering, e.g. DangerousPrototypes.com (http://dangerousprototypes.com) and Mikrocontroller.net (http://mikrocontroller.net) even for Bluetooth (then again, mentioning the latter was by no means meant to exclude something as simple as e.g. I²C on the cartridge edge for in-circuit reprogramming).
The ideas I had been working on didn't involve having any communications software or drivers on the CPC or PC side. The hardware would look after all the comms and protocols and it would be complicated to allow pin codes to be entered. This was my idea:
The CPC: Would "think" that a RAM expansion (probably 512K) is connected and can access/manipulate/copy/save or whatever using standard routines or even BASIC. When not being used to transfer data, the device would work as a standard RAM expansion.
The PC: would think a 512K Memory Stick is connected and be able to drag and drop files in the normal way no matter what OS you happen to prefer.
That way neither side needs special drivers or software and the hardware is compatible with all PCs and CPCs.
Now you all know why I have been experimenting with RAM expansions for the last few days :)
One of the problems with using BT on such a device is that it usually gets powered down quite often, so the pin code/pairing would have to be performed every time you wanted to use the device.
Bryce.
Can i reserve one already??? Please, pretty please, with sugar on top!!! ;D ;D ;D
I love your idea Bryce, and we only need to install the RDOS rom in the MegaFlash to use it as a ram disk perfectly compatible with the basic/firmware.
In this moment, i'm following with a commented disassembly of it that i began a few months ago, when TFM discovered for me this little wonderful, i'm very grateful to him by that, you are the best my friend ;)
It's still only an idea at the moment, I've no idea when I will get time to make or test a prototype :(
Bryce.
Je je je, i know, but i want to give you positive feedback, because i think it's a GREAT IDEA!!! ;)
When you have time, take a look to the RDOS rom, if you don't know, you will see that using the ram disk feel very natural, you only have to use |C (or úC :P) to select the ram disk and voila, you can use load, save, ... totally transparent to the user ;)
Doesn't the DKTronics Silicon Disk also work something like this? Or is it more complicated? I've never checked it out properly.
Bryce.
They look very similar, we could have two great software solutions, but i'm sure that TFM will tell us the benefits and advantages of one over the other ;)
Quote from: Bryce on 09:34, 09 November 11
The CPC: Would "think" that a RAM expansion (probably 512K) is connected and can access/manipulate/copy/save or whatever using standard routines or even BASIC. When not being used to transfer data, the device would work as a standard RAM expansion.
The PC: would think a 512K Memory Stick is connected and be able to drag and drop files in the normal way no matter what OS you happen to prefer.
That way neither side needs special drivers or software and the hardware is compatible with all PCs and CPCs.
WoW! To realize this idea (which is brilliant) it takes a lot of effort. Reason: The USB device usually works with data blocks, but RAM paging on CPC (in contrast!) involves 16 KB or 64 KB pages of RAM - which must be switchable in some microseconds (just the time of an OUT command). I don't say it's impossible, but I can (hardly) imagine how hard it will be to implement such a genious feature.
However, please don't limit it to small 0.5 MB. Let's just go with the 4 MB RAM (compatible to RAM7 and Jarek). That doesn't make much more work, in essence just four more address lines. And the gain is huge :-) :) :)
Quote from: SyX on 10:07, 09 November 11
In this moment, i'm following with a commented disassembly of it that i began a few months ago, when TFM discovered for me this little wonderful, i'm very grateful to him by that, you are the best my friend ;)
You are doing a great job! And this will open whole new worlds for the CPC. RAM discs, Flash discs and maybe in future also USB-discs and more. :) :) :)
Quote from: Bryce on 13:04, 09 November 11
Doesn't the DKTronics Silicon Disk also work something like this? Or is it more complicated? I've never checked it out properly.
Bryce.
Silicon disc provides:
- fewer space
- is more complicated
- much less compatible to games
And Dobbertin RDOS RAM-disc can be used also for CP/M 2.2 and Plus.
EDIT: Now imagine a static RAM-disc or (MegaFlash)-disc - means non volatile files. How cool is that?!
I have one 512 KB S-RAM expansion (Inicron) on my 6128 Plus in Germany. Using RDOS this machine works perfectly as discless system (including games on RAM disc and/or ROM) 8) :)
EDIT2: I even start CP/M Plus from ROM or RAM-disc when needed (for using Prowort and Maxam II)
Quote from: TFM/FS on 17:55, 09 November 11
The USB device usually works with data blocks, but RAM paging on CPC (in contrast!) involves 16 KB or 64 KB pages of RAM - which must be switchable in some microseconds (just the time of an OUT command). I don't say it's impossible, but I can (hardly) imagine how hard it will be to implement such a genious feature.
It shouldn't be too difficult, both could be connected (through tri-state buffers to isolate the inactive computer) to the address and data bus of a standard SRAM IC, but only one could speak to it at any time. This could either be done manually (cheaply :) ) with a simple switch, or expensively by letting the computers block each other when they are accessing the RAM. There should be no need for both to be reading / writing at the same time. Most USB client driver ICs have a data transfer flag/signal and the CPC has RAMRD, RAMDIS and a few others that can be ANDed to halt the USB at any time.
Bryce.
If you want to do your own upgrade, look here:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Schneider-Amstrad-64k-Speichererweiterung-dk-tronics-cpc-464-664-/170752362836?pt=Klassische_Computer&hash=item27c1a24954 (http://www.ebay.de/itm/Schneider-Amstrad-64k-Speichererweiterung-dk-tronics-cpc-464-664-/170752362836?pt=Klassische_Computer&hash=item27c1a24954)
Easily upgraded to 256K too :) http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Upgrading_a_Dk%27tronics_RAM_Expansion (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Upgrading_a_Dk%27tronics_RAM_Expansion)
Bryce.
Great site!!! Wonderful work!!! I already got one of them at home, so I will not need a second.
I've got a dk'tronics 64k expansion, but I'd like to keep it unmodified.
Bryce, was there any thoughts on a memory expansion for those that don't have one or do not want to modify the one they have.
I'm sure there would be a lot of interest...but then you do have 5000 other projects on the go :D
Cheers,
Shane
In the new year, when I have some more time, I hope to finish and release a Memory expansion that I've been working on. The design is 70% complete, but I haven't started to build a prototype yet. It's the next priority though.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 13:40, 24 December 11
In the new year, when I have some more time, I hope to finish and release a Memory expansion that I've been working on. The design is 70% complete, but I haven't started to build a prototype yet. It's the next priority though.
Bryce.
Ooh, nice... what will be its form factor?
Much like the MegaFlash, maybe a bit smaller.
Bryce.
Neeeat! But I guess no pass-thru?
Good news this new project ;)
What would be the capacity of this ram extension ?
@Kris: Although the next post will be from TFM saying it should be 4MB, Yarek compatible, etc, I intend it to be a 512K expansion. I have good reason for this too.
@Gryzor: Pass-Thru is kind of a non-issue if you use a header like I did on the MegaFlash, because you can use a longer flat cable with many 50 way connectors attached to connect several devices, without adding the additional cost and complexity (Edge / Centronics) required if the pass-thru is on the device.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 20:46, 26 December 11
@Kris: Although the next post will be from TFM saying it should be 4MB, Yarek compatible, etc, I intend it to be a 512K expansion. I have good reason for this too.
AAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrgggghhhh!!! There can't be good reasons!!!
At least you could create cards usnig 512KB of RAM, but with a selectable I/O Address range.
Just introduce some jumpers, that allow to select the upper I/O byte as &7F (normal 512 KB expansion, dk'tronics compatible), &7E, &7D, &7C, &7B, &7A, &79, &78.
So one can add eight cards to get 4 MB.
Further... come on, one small 4 MByte chip! That can't be that though. Can it?
@Kris: See! Told you so :D
@TFM: Ok, here's some of the reasons:
1 - 99.9% of users will only want 512K and aren't prepared to pay for 3.5MB that they'll never use.
2 - There is only one program (I know of) that uses more than 512K.
3 - Up to 512K it can be classic thru-pin device, above 512K it would have to be an SMD device.
4 - The full 128K is rarely exploited on the CPC, so what developers are going to make use of 4MB?
5 - I would rather create a 512K expansion which keeps many users happy, than a 4MB expansion that is less popular.
But if any other users think different, then please let me know. My goal as always is to design things that people want.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 23:51, 26 December 11
1 - 99.9% of users will only want 512K and aren't prepared to pay for 3.5MB that they'll never use.
That would mean that 1 out of 1000 only likes more that 0.5 MB. I doubt. We don't have 1000 users here.
I did create at least five programs for CPC (two games, two applications, one OS) which use more that 0.5 MB. So it makes sense to have more than that small 0.5 MB.
Think Future: We will need that RAM quite soon :) As soon as the 4 MB expansion is available, people will start to create a lot of soft for it! :)
Quote from: Bryce on 23:51, 26 December 11
2 - There is only one program (I know of) that uses more than 512K.
See 1. But ok, here are some examples in addition:
- A Tribute to the Sisters
- Gerelakos
- Captain Future Demo
- FutureOS
- and and and...
As said: We need the hardware FIRST. Software will FOLLOW.
How can you expect to find much 4 MB programs, if you haven't build the 4 MB expansion yet? ;) That's a law of the logic! Hardware was always there first, then software followed! Look at the last 35 years of computing history.
Nobody ever developped software for hardware that doesn't yet exist. You see the need?
Quote from: Bryce on 23:51, 26 December 11
3 - Up to 512K it can be classic thru-pin device, above 512K it would have to be an SMD device.
There is no reason for that. You can get 4 MB RAM in non-SMD chips too.
Quote from: Bryce on 23:51, 26 December 11
4 - The full 128K is rarely exploited on the CPC, so what developers are going to make use of 4MB?
That's wrong, there is a whole bunch of 128 KB software and also 512 KB software, look at appropriate CPC-Wiki lists (search 128 KB software).
Quote from: Bryce on 23:51, 26 December 11
5 - I would rather create a 512K expansion which keeps many users happy, than a 4MB expansion that is less popular.
How could a 4 MB expansion be less popular? Any kind of 4 MB expansion CONTAINS a 0.5 MB expansion ;D
You can't tell me that a beatle is less popular than a Porsche. 8)
If you would argue about pricing, I would accept that. But a 4 MB RAM chip is not much more expensive than an 0.5 MB chip. Or am I wrong?
So for a 4 MB expansion you may pay 5-9 Euros more than for a small 0.5 MB one. :o
Quote from: Bryce on 23:51, 26 December 11
But if any other users think different, then please let me know. My goal as always is to design things that people want.
Well if you create a 4 MB expansion, then it contains a 0.5 MB expansion. So this would satisfy everybody.
0.5 MB is really small (even c64 and spectrum have 1 MB expansions!!!). 4 MB is quite the right amount of RAM. And as soon as the 4 MB RAM expansion would be there - the right software would be there too - quite quick - promised! :)
Or at least consider a 4 MB expansion as secondary RAM project.
I already can promise that people with only 0.5 MB RAM will miss features in my upcoming games. So people out there: better get your 4 MB. ;)
@TFM/FS:
Who will make a 5 x 800kb disk demo/game? And why? (unless we boot from usb/sd/ide)
But still, I think I agree with TFM... We should think of the potential. It's better to have more than less!
I would like a 4MB ram expansion, (I have bought a 64k DKtronics rampack just to house a larger ram expansion).
I would expect few programs to be 4MB in size, they will use data compression to fill memory with decompressed data and leave some space for temporary data.
If we ever connect the CPC to the net, 4MB ram may not be enough 8)
Perhaps some extra banking could be devised to allow 16MB :o
Quote from: TFM/FS on 03:36, 27 December 11
That would mean that 1 out of 1000 only likes more that 0.5 MB. I doubt. We don't have 1000 users here.
That's not how percentages work, and I hope you know that :D
Quote from: TFM/FS on 03:36, 27 December 11
- and and and...
Oooo, haven't tried that one yet, is there a DSK available :)
Quote from: TFM/FS on 03:36, 27 December 11
As said: We need the hardware FIRST. Software will FOLLOW.
How can you expect to find much 4 MB programs, if you haven't build the 4 MB expansion yet? ;) That's a law of the logic! Hardware was always there first, then software followed! Look at the last 35 years of computing history.
Yareks expansion has been around for years, so why don't more people have one and develop for it?
Quote from: TFM/FS on 03:36, 27 December 11
Nobody ever developped software for hardware that doesn't yet exist.
You obviously never tried to play Crysis when it came out first :D
Quote from: TFM/FS on 03:36, 27 December 11
There is no reason for that. You can get 4 MB RAM in non-SMD chips too.
Please send me a Part No. I would be very interested in getting my hands on some of these!
But seriously, one reason why I want to stick with thru-pin is the fact that RAMs can be so sensitive and tend to malfunction quite often, especially in devices that get plugged on and off regularly, so I want the RAM to be socketed so that it's easily replaceable. With SMD if the RAM fails the board is not user-repairable.
Quote from: TFM/FS on 03:36, 27 December 11
If you would argue about pricing, I would accept that. But a 4 MB RAM chip is not much more expensive than an 0.5 MB chip. Or am I wrong?
So for a 4 MB expansion you may pay 5-9 Euros more than for a small 0.5 MB one. :o
4MB also needs more address decoding, so it's not just the RAM IC, but also more logic and a bigger PCB that would raise the price further.
Quote from: TFM/FS on 03:36, 27 December 11
0.5 MB is really small (even c64 and spectrum have 1 MB expansions!!!). 4 MB is quite the right amount of RAM. And as soon as the 4 MB RAM expansion would be there - the right software would be there too - quite quick - promised! :)
I own several Atari XL/XE and Commodores which have 1MB or more, but I very rarely use the extra RAM.
Quote from: TFM/FS on 03:36, 27 December 11
Or at least consider a 4 MB expansion as secondary RAM project.
This is definitely a consideration, but I wanted to get a 512K standard RAM expansion finished first, because I still think it is what the majority would prefer.
Bryce.
Ok, I wasn't going to discuss this openly online yet, because it's a long way away and nothing has been designed yet. So here is my full plan:
1 - Release a 512K DKTronics compatible expansion in 2012 that fulfills the needs of most users.
2 - Release a flexible RAM expansion in the future. The Larger RAM expansion would be DK+Yarek compatible but would use standard SIMM RAM cards from old PCs, that way the user decides how much RAM he wants, the RAM is replaceable and everyone's happy.
Bryce.
QuoteSo here is my full plan:
hmm, not enough world domination for my liking and no evil laugh ;)
I would be interested in the 512k but the 4MB does sound s a bit impractical without a hard drive.
I wonder with the lower ROM your working on would it not be possible to create a cartridge system using the expansion port compatible with both the plus (assuming you could use the ACID chip in the original cartridge in this instance) and original CPC then we wouldn't need the 4MB and half a dozen disks for games/software?
Beaker
Oh, sorry, I forgot to mention the Sharks with frickin LASERS! I tend to forget the best parts of my plan when I don't have a white cat to stroke.
The MegaFlash can be used exactly as you describe: Flash based cartridge-like software, compatible with both Classic and Plus and this can be done without modifying the lower ROM.
Bryce.
I can understand TFM, he is always very proud of getting the best of the CPC ;)
In my case, i don't know if i will get the 256 KBs mark with "my" programs; for me 512KBs is more than enough, even with USB, but i'm a strange dude ;D
Quote from: Bryce on 14:32, 27 December 11
Oh, sorry, I forgot to mention the Sharks with frickin LASERS! I tend to forget the best parts of my plan when I don't have a white cat to stroke.
That's the spirit :D
Quote from: Bryce on 14:32, 27 December 11
The MegaFlash can be used exactly as you describe: Flash based cartridge-like software, compatible with both Classic and Plus and this can be done without modifying the lower ROM.
Yeah I'm being an idiot, sorry - too much festive cheer; I was thinking in terms of programs/games in the future that may need 4MB and the comment "w
ho will make a 5 x 800kb disk demo/game". I read the CPC can only address 16KB and larger programs need to be split across multiple ROMS so I was wondering if the OS could be patched to access a larger amount of data from an alternative source in the absense of a hard drive rather than sticking to a media with such a small capacity? I should really think about things before I say them ;D
The 16K limit is pretty much hardwired for the RAM on the Classic CPC. The Plus can page larger areas from the cartridge, but to keep things compatible with all CPCs, you'd have to stick with the 16K limit. It's still possible to have larger programs though. Multi-ROM programs such as FOS, Protext, SymbOS and others spread the program across several ROMs and page in the one they need while the program is running.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 12:35, 27 December 111 - Release a 512K DKTronics compatible expansion in 2012 that fulfills the needs of most users.
Yes ! i'd love to see that.Would it be 464/664 compatible ?
Yes.
Bryce.
Quote from: fgbrain on 09:01, 27 December 11
@TFM/FS:
Who will make a 5 x 800kb disk demo/game? And why? (unless we boot from usb/sd/ide)
Well, I already did. It's neither special nor beautiful. But it shows what can be done! I can imagine video sequences in future CPC games.
Captain Future on Amstrad CPC with 4 MB RAM expansion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBK2_LBDl6Y#)
And as you already mentioned. There are harddisc / USB / IDE and now even Bluetooth solutions for the CPC.
Quote from: fgbrain on 09:01, 27 December 11
But still, I think I agree with TFM... We should think of the potential. It's better to have more than less!
Of course :) We should have a vision of our CPC in future. The limits of that wonderful machine are not reached yet.
Quote from: steve on 12:18, 27 December 11
I would like a 4MB ram expansion... .
I would expect few programs to be 4MB in size, they will use data compression to fill memory with decompressed data and leave some space for temporary data.
Exactly :) And when using GFX one single 0.7 MB disc can hold 4 MB GFX when compressed with bitbuster or something advanced.
Quote from: steve on 12:18, 27 December 11
If we ever connect the CPC to the net, 4MB ram may not be enough 8)
Perhaps some extra banking could be devised to allow 16MB :o
Of course! But it seems to be hard to convince people to see the need of 4 MB.
A buddy and me were developping a 64 MB expansion, but the project was abandoned due to his lack of time :-( But I really hope that we can get 4 MB.
Hi Bryce, ok, let me try to focus on your serious comments...
Quote from: Bryce on 12:26, 27 December 11
Yareks expansion has been around for years, so why don't more people have one and develop for it?
That's the point. He offered the 4 MB as internal upgrade for a while. And now he is disappeared. However, his approach is a good reliable solution. And aside of me I know other people who have this expanson. His expanson is working flawless with my 6128 (as his internal ROM upgrate to 2.5 MB Flash!).
Quote from: Bryce on 12:26, 27 December 11
But seriously, one reason why I want to stick with thru-pin is the fact that RAMs can be so sensitive and tend to malfunction quite often, especially in devices that get plugged on and off regularly, so I want the RAM to be socketed so that it's easily replaceable. With SMD if the RAM fails the board is not user-repairable.
There is no problem with Yareks expansons. They always worked flawless. And I'm sure you can do the same. Further old RAM chips are cheap to get.
If Yarek would produce his 4 MB RAM expansion still, I would't ask for 4 MB here.
Quote from: Bryce on 12:26, 27 December 11
4 MB also needs more address decoding, so it's not just the RAM IC, but also more logic and a bigger PCB that would raise the price further.
Well, I don't mind to pay 50 Euros instead of 40 Euros, when I get EIGHT times more RAM ;D
Quote from: Bryce on 12:26, 27 December 11
I own several Atari XL/XE and Commodores which have 1MB or more, but I very rarely use the extra RAM.
Well, we are talking about the CPC here, a superior system. So you state by yourself that even commodore crap has 1 MB RAM. It would be a shame to be limited to 0.5 MB with our beloved CPCs. Atari it cool though ;-)
Quote from: Bryce on 12:26, 27 December 11
This is definitely a consideration, but I wanted to get a 512K standard RAM expansion finished first, because I still think it is what the majority would prefer.
Well, as you see (provious posts), there are a lot of people interrested in it. But I understand that you want to create a 0.5 MB first. So do you think that there is a change to move on to 4 MB as a second step? Or would it be to complex? (I can only judge from Yareks page, and there it looks very simple, few chips small boards, easy IMHO. But I may oversee something).
Quote from: Bryce on 12:35, 27 December 11
Ok, I wasn't going to discuss this openly online yet, because it's a long way away and nothing has been designed yet. So here is my full plan:
1 - Release a 512K DKTronics compatible expansion in 2012 that fulfills the needs of most users.
2 - Release a flexible RAM expansion in the future. The Larger RAM expansion would be DK+Yarek compatible but would use standard SIMM RAM cards from old PCs, that way the user decides how much RAM he wants, the RAM is replaceable and everyone's happy.
Bryce.
I'm happy :D I can't wait for the second stage :) :) :)
Quote from: beaker on 14:14, 27 December 11
I would be interested in the 512k but the 4MB does sound s a bit impractical without a hard drive.
That's not the case. You can crunch software, and when you use it - uncrunched again - then you easily will fill 4 MB.
Quote from: SyX on 15:57, 27 December 11
I can understand TFM, he is always very proud of getting the best of the CPC ;)
In my case, i don't know if i will get the 256 KBs mark with "my" programs; for me 512KBs is more than enough, even with USB,
Usually I would agree. And that's right for most apps and games... but only because up to now only few people have more RAM. If a 4 MB expanson would be available in common people would do a lot of things with it. Just look at AtariST and Amiga. It not only sound samples, videos and precalculated vector tables, or RAM discs - there is much more potential in it.
And as we know R.Palmer is developping the Ethernet card. We will need a lot of RAM for internet access.
Quote from: SyX on 15:57, 27 December 11
but i'm a strange dude ;D
Haha, in a very positive way. And I hope to be strang too then ;)
Quote from: Bryce on 16:41, 27 December 11
The 16K limit is pretty much hardwired for the RAM on the Classic CPC. The Plus can page larger areas from the cartridge, but to keep things compatible with all CPCs, you'd have to stick with the 16K limit. It's still possible to have larger programs though. Multi-ROM programs such as FOS, Protext, SymbOS and others spread the program across several ROMs and page in the one they need while the program is running.
Well, that's exactly right! And it's not a problem. A ROM program can be continued in another ROM without significant delay. A switch can be done in 6 ys.
(BTW: SOS can just boot from ROM and then it runs in RAM. It's not capable of running in ROMs. Therefore it uses up a lot of RAM).
Yeeeeeeeees... I do need both of them too, Bryce !
Quote from: Bryce on 12:35, 27 December 11
Ok, I wasn't going to discuss this openly online yet, because it's a long way away and nothing has been designed yet. So here is my full plan:
1 - Release a 512K DKTronics compatible expansion in 2012 that fulfills the needs of most users.
2 - Release a flexible RAM expansion in the future. The Larger RAM expansion would be DK+Yarek compatible but would use standard SIMM RAM cards from old PCs, that way the user decides how much RAM he wants, the RAM is replaceable and everyone's happy.
Bryce.
Quote
Yeeeeeeeees... I do need both of them too, Bryce !
Ditto
Quote
And as we know R.Palmer is developping the Ethernet card. We will need a lot of RAM for internet access.
I see the potential need here - maybe there should be some soft of collaboration (like what happened with megaflashrom?)
Quote from: ynot.zer0 on 00:08, 09 February 12
I see the potential need here - maybe there should be some soft of collaboration (like what happened with megaflashrom?)
We (Mr. Palmer and I) can and do exchange ideas from time to time, but I doubt he needs my assistance as he seems to be well able to design both hardware and software, so I don't have a lot to offer him.
Bryce.
Well I would be completely satisfied with 512KB actually I would be happy with a 64KB RAM expansion so I can finally play Orion Prime. 4MB seems like a ludicrous amount of RAM to have to me but I might find I'm wrong in the future when TFM/FS decides he needs a 128GB RAM expansion.
I'm fully with you on that one. 99.9% of all current CPC software would work with 512K and 99.9% of the users would also be happy with a 512K expansion. Making a larger more complicated RAM expansion, for the remaining user(s) :D doesn't justify raising the price of the device for everyone else. That's why the first device will be a standard 512K expansion.
Bryce.
You two guys argue the same way Bill Gates did it when he claimed that no PC will ever need more than 640 KB. We know the problem created due to this short-eyed attitude!!! :P
You tell me 512 KB is enough? Well in this case ... You are too short-eyed regarding software! Just use your imagination how much wonderfull stuff can be done with 4 MB!!! Don't tell me that you already have forgotten all your dreams, that would be a pity! :(
But like usually: If I say something, first they fight me, then they ignore me, at the end they say it would be common knowledge (the same here as with the lower ROM board, and other stuff). Don't blame me to have cosmic spirit and a vision 8)
25 years of CPC with 128K embedded memory... Who use it?
You are wrong, the 21st century CPC user only want 64K programs on tape for redefining keys... :-\
Quote from: Bryce on 12:41, 09 February 12
I'm fully with you on that one. 99.9% of all current CPC software would work with 512K and 99.9% of the users would also be happy with a 512K expansion. Making a larger more complicated RAM expansion, for the remaining user(s) :D doesn't justify raising the price of the device for everyone else. That's why the first device will be a standard 512K expansion.
I take it there would be a fair difference in price, more than €20 or €30 euro?
Quote from: TFM/FS on 22:46, 07 November 11
Oh, USB isn't better. It's a pain in the back to program proper USB protocols. Sure the user will never feel it, it just works. Dr. Zed talked to me about this in more detail, so I'm not jealous to people who like to program hardware for USB (doesn't matter if a microcontroller of VHDL).
Sorry, I'm a bit late to this thread. Bit certainly with chips like the ATMEGA32u4 and the LUFA library, it's pretty much trivial to implement any USB device you care. The LUFA library has examples for many different USB devices, both host and client.
@Ralf: Yes USB isn't as difficult as it's made out to be, just relative to RS232 it is rather complicated and wasn't supported by µPs for a long time, so developers tended to avoid it.
@TFM/FS: Like any device I develop, the goal is to make something that fulfils the wishes of the majority. Just with the MegaFlash, I could have made it for 128 ROMs and I'm sure there are some uses for that, but MOST people will be happy with 32 ROMs so that's what it got, you have to balance features against price and fine the "sweet-spot". The same with RAM, most people will be more than happy with 512K, so why make it more expensive to keep a minority happy?
I assume you drive a car? There are cars that can drive at >300Kmh, but not every car can and I doubt yours does, because most people don't need / want that. Image if every car was a supercar and cost half a million, just for those who wanted to drive faster than 300Kmh.
@Beaker: To be honest I haven't calculated any exact prices yet. My aim/hope is to be able to offer the RAM Expansion at a relatively low price so that it will be widely implemented.
Bryce.
If an expansion is done, sure that the best compromise (technical/price) will be a 512KB RAM. No more, no less.
Quote from: awergh on 12:15, 09 February 12
Well I would be completely satisfied with 512KB actually I would be happy with a 64KB RAM expansion so I can finally play Orion Prime. 4MB seems like a ludicrous amount of RAM to have to me but I might find I'm wrong in the future when TFM/FS decides he needs a 128GB RAM expansion.
Same here, my main interest would be in having a RAM expansion for the 464 so I can test 128k projects on a CRTC 0, seeing as the DKTronics 64K RAM pack died years ago, and that was my second as it was.
As for 512k, or even more, it's not even a question of whether or not I'd like to produce something that needed that much RAM, it's a question of not having the immense amount of time to spend on usefully filling that much space.
Quote from: TotO on 23:22, 09 February 12
25 years of CPC with 128K embedded memory... Who use it?
You are wrong, the 21st century CPC user only want 64K programs on tape for redefining keys... :-\
See it another way.
no 3" discs any more, no 3.5" or 5.25" discs can be bought anymore. so you must use old. 3.5" drives with read signal and compatible with cpc, and have the cables and power supply are sometimes hard to find.
drive belts get worn and broken.
yes you can buy Jeff's hardware, but for some it is quite expensive.
ok, so you have much of this old hardware and it works great.. but what about somebody who is new to the scene and has none... and who can't fix things easy...
464 has survived all this.. and can be easily connected up to the pc and sound played into it - so it is easy to get real programs onto it.
and you can still buy cassettes!!!!
but bad: it has 64k of ram.
So I think this is why people are wanting 64k compatible programs - with redefine keys because now they are older and their hands hurt more when they try to use them ;)
It look that peoples want to use the CPC like it was used 25 years ago.
Near nothing was done during all this time to take part of the 128K embeded in the 6128, so a 4MB RAM expansion is just infinity useless.
Today, building an useful RAM EXT. remplacement with 64K or 512K is the same price.
So I encourage Bryce to do that. :)
I know that some people here (like toto) don't like me. I was never interested in winning a popularity contest and I will never be. In contrast, why should I take a bath in the broad mass if I can do better?
But what people like toto forget is that fighting my visions of the CPC is just fighting the CPCs future.
Sad for you, sad for the CPC and sad for me, because I wasted my time for people who will never understand.
Some of you guys are just consumers. You deny everything at first, and as soon as everybody has it you will buy it. But you lack the vision of future. Wouldn't be a problem, if you wouldn't try to kill all innovations!!!
However the most dumb argument is to say 'There are no programs for a RAM expansion'. Sure, people must have the expansion first, then they can start coding on it. First the hardware - then the software. Is it really so hard to understand that? Or do you just sacrifice the future of the CPC because you want to kick my balls?
Again this place is souce of demotivation.
You are wrong. I hate nobody.
It's nice to doing stuff for yourself, because it's your pleasure.
Making your own OS, dreaming about your own vision on the CPC today and doing think in this direction.
It's nice, because most peoples does nothing.
But... What about users ? Do you know if they share the same vision ?
I'm pretty sure (reading forums) than most peoples are only nostagic of BASIC, Tape games and demo...
Have you asked to others if they find useful to use another OS ? Useful to add huge memory for doing thinks they don't in 80's ?
It's not because I don't share your vision, that I don't like you or what you do.
Quotefighting my visions of the CPC is just fighting the CPCs future.
You don't think it was just pretentious? ;)
Quote from: TFM/FS on 20:56, 10 February 12
However the most dumb argument is to say 'There are no programs for a RAM expansion'. Sure, people must have the expansion first, then they can start coding on it. First the hardware - then the software.
Of course the software only comes when the hardware is available, but the "signs" of what's needed come first. I haven't heard any software developers yet, that said "Well my software had to be limited because I only had 512K, I would have added more features if I had 4MB of RAM".
Bryce.
If you look at modern software, it is many megabytes, even gigabytes in size, most of this is used for graphics and sound, so it would be easy to use up 4MB ram on a CPC, in fact there is a program or two already that is over 700KB in size, having that in memory would speed up the game as it would not have to pause whilst new segments load from disk.
Having 4MB available would enable digitised sound and optional speech using either synthesiser, these things might not be so easy with only 512KB ram, additionally it would make cartridge software development easier as the whole program and development tools could be held in 4MB ram.
A 4MB rampack is also cheaper per bit than a 512KB unit.
Of course, if you don't actually want to use the CPC for anything other than playing old games then a 4MB rampack will be of no interest.
Quote from: Bryce on 22:48, 10 February 12Of course the software only comes when the hardware is available
As we can see on most systems, it's mainly because the hardware is available as standard (not an option) that programmers take advantage of it.
Looking from the consumer side, if he think it's not essential to get it because he got an alternative, then he don't buy it.
Why a sharp joystick/mouse, if my favorite programs can be run as well with a keyboard?
Why stereo speakers, if my favorite programs done mono sound?
Why an extended memory, if my favorite programs run on 64K?
...
If you can't answer to those questions, then the corresponding hardware stay useless for most users.
Quote from: steve on 00:10, 11 February 12
If you look at modern software, it is many megabytes, even gigabytes in size, most of this is used for graphics and sound
Modern softwares run on modern computers. Did the CPC got enough power to take part of that?
Quote from: steve on 00:10, 11 February 12Having 4MB available would enable digitised sound and optional speech using either synthesiser, these things might not be so easy with only 512KB ram
Without CPU power, it's just a dream to use digit sound on programs. Amiga does because 68K and Paula. (with 512KB of memory)
Quote from: steve on 00:10, 11 February 12A 4MB rampack is also cheaper per bit than a 512KB unit.
Managing more than 512KB require extra IC for banking. And may require more memory chips and PCB space too.
Quote from: steve on 00:10, 11 February 12
If you look at modern software, it is many megabytes, even gigabytes in size, most of this is used for graphics and sound, so it would be easy to use up 4MB ram on a CPC, in fact there is a program or two already that is over 700KB in size, having that in memory would speed up the game as it would not have to pause whilst new segments load from disk.
Having 4MB available would enable digitised sound and optional speech using either synthesiser, these things might not be so easy with only 512KB ram, additionally it would make cartridge software development easier as the whole program and development tools could be held in 4MB ram.
A 4MB rampack is also cheaper per bit than a 512KB unit.
Of course, if you don't actually want to use the CPC for anything other than playing old games then a 4MB rampack will be of no interest.
Thanks' you talk out of my heart. Why not using RAM for graphics and sounds. Compressed they even fit on a 700 kb 3.5" disc. Uncompressed in RAM they can be used during a game. But also applications would have a gain.
Well, I don't want to say anybody what to do. I'm just fascinated by the idea of a whole pack or RAM. 512 KB is good for 30 seconds of digitezed sound. So that ain't enough for me ;-) I dream of CPC games with video sequences and MP3 like sound (digiblaster f.e.), and that's consuming much RAM.