GX4000 Multicart/SD card

[Executioner]

After all I live in hope that one day we will gat this, and the day after one of those famous 2 Chase HQ2 carts will get dumped to CPR.

Given what you said earlier about booting a Plus from X-Mem with a game cart inserted, I can't see this being much of a problem. Just install AMSDOS/ParaDOS in the X-Mem and copy the cart banks using a simple bit of code.

[CraigsBar]

Given what you said earlier about booting a Plus from X-Mem with a game cart inserted, I can't see this being much of a problem. Just install AMSDOS/ParaDOS in the X-Mem and copy the cart banks using a simple bit of code.

hmm. Well kinda. With no cart inserted it runs just fine. As the xmem does not replace Rom 7(cart slot 3) then with a game cart in the slot it hangs trying to initialize what I guess is effectively garbage data in what it thinks is slot 3 / rom 7. Perhaps a mother x4 board to provide a smaller flash to replace Rom 7 on a switchable basis is the solution here as well.

[arnoldemu]

hmm. Well kinda. With no cart inserted it runs just fine. As the xmem does not replace Rom 7(cart slot 3) then with a game cart in the slot it hangs trying to initialize what I guess is effectively garbage data in what it thinks is slot 3 / rom 7. Perhaps a mother x4 board to provide a smaller flash to replace Rom 7 on a switchable basis is the solution here as well.

464+ or 6128+?

EDIT: Ah yes, I see what you mean now. Bit slow this morning.

If the x-mem's base could be moved to 128 then it could be a replacement for cart somehow?

[Gryzor]

My two cents on the discussion:

Yes, it has been discussed before. Yes, quasi-definite answers were given.

...and NO, I don't think a "use the search function" reply is appropriate. It's not friendly and, frankly, is out of place here. It gives a bad image of the community. It's one thing trying to, say, give a complex technical answer that has been given already and another having a general discussion. Heck, we've had countless questions about drive pins before, and we always answer them, people! What's wrong with giving some pointers (as has been done numerous times in the past) to previous threads instead of being uptight?

Not only that, but in many cases (this one included) regurgitating an existing issue can lead to new answers and renewed interest. So, let's all be friendly and accommodating.

[/rant]

@chinnyhill10 : to sum it all:

-the ACID issue. To use an FPGA would probably raise the cost too much.
-the casing issue. No solution found up to now though some people are trying their hand at it. Community/interest too small to support moulding for new cases
-no titles worth the trouble. Launch disk images etc? Why, we have the HxC for that.

Not that people wouldn't be interested in one. I'd certainly get one or two (and I'm hoping someone is secretly working on one). But the combination of factors has put a multicart aside...

[Bryce]

Any chance that your rant was actually meant for this thread? Wiki search box

Bryce.

[Gryzor]

Upvoting for cynicism points :p

[TotO]

If the x-mem's base could be moved to 128 then it could be a replacement for cart somehow?

Originally, it was 128 based bootable range but peoples asked to be a standard ROM board.

[steve]

 

[mr_lou]

...and NO, I don't think a "use the search function" reply is appropriate. It's not friendly and, frankly, is out of place here. It gives a bad image of the community. It's one thing trying to, say, give a complex technical answer that has been given already and another having a general discussion. Heck, we've had countless questions about drive pins before, and we always answer them, people! What's wrong with giving some pointers (as has been done numerous times in the past) to previous threads instead of being uptight?

This was what I wrote:

This is the 4th or 5th time someone brings this up.

Please do a search to find out all the reasons why it hasn't been done yet. It has been answered many times.

Considering the many previous in-appropriate and rude replies I have received here in the past, I'm somewhat disappointed that my non-rude reply causes you to write a rant like that, when nothing even close has been posted when people has been rude to me. I wasn't being rude here.

[TFM]

Ok, we're coming close to a flame war... time for me to jump in: 


What would a Multi-Cart need?
- SD card for enough space for current & future games
- OS caring about Cart selection
- ACID replacement!?


Solution:
- SD cards are now usable, see HxC and other solutions
- OS: Use the Cart Player from Amstrad, else I'm sure Prodatron will make a SymbOS version for it. (Maybe even I consider doing a special version of FutureOS for cart management).
- ACID: Just take the ACID inside solution. OR the man in the middle solution, Bryce showed that before.


And no, we don't need the super-duper-Alice-Cooper-all-original cartridge shell. We can just take one that fits.




Ok, ordering two pieces of that hardware now 

[andycadley]

Personally I don't see the SD Card as necessary for it's storage capacity, but rather that it's more likely to be an easier solution to the problem of "How do we get files from a PC/Mac onto the cart?" And the extra capacity can always be put to use to simplify the design if needed (for example rather than complex logic to parse and map different sized carts, we just store 512K images with duplicate pages as needed).

Cart selection is a trickier issue, I don't know whether it would be technically easier to use something along the lines of an external hardware solution (like the screen+buttons on an HxC) or whether it could be an entirely software based solution, which might be trickier given the limited capabilities of the cart slot.

[chinnyhill10]

No, that's not what we're looking at.
The 1541 Ultimate is not a cartridge-emulator / multicartridge. It is more like a 1541 drive emulator. It doesn't contain cartridge images. It contains disk (d64) images.

Incorrect.


The 1541 Ultimate can emulate a 1541, can also load T64 files (tape files), a number of other formats and  "C64 Cartridge Emulation" including Ocean and System 3 custom ROM's.

It is much much more than a mere floppy drive emulator. In CPC terms it's a HxC, Multiface and a cart emulator all in one.

[chinnyhill10]

@chinnyhill10 : to sum it all:

-the ACID issue. To use an FPGA would probably raise the cost too much.
-the casing issue. No solution found up to now though some people are trying their hand at it. Community/interest too small to support moulding for new cases
-no titles worth the trouble. Launch disk images etc? Why, we have the HxC for that.

Not that people wouldn't be interested in one. I'd certainly get one or two (and I'm hoping someone is secretly working on one). But the combination of factors has put a multicart aside...

I know the 1541 Ultimate guy had to pay a high cost for his (rather lovely) carts. But the Atari guys have gone for something much cheaper and it still works. 3D printing might also make it even more accessible in a few years.


I'm wondering if a multicart isn't possible if the GX4000 exclusive titles could be hacked to work from floppy. A difficult project perhaps but one that would let Plus owners use an HxC to play rare/overpriced games.

[mr_lou]

The 1541 Ultimate can emulate a 1541, can also load T64 files (tape files), a number of other formats and  "C64 Cartridge Emulation" including Ocean and System 3 custom ROM's.

It is much much more than a mere floppy drive emulator. In CPC terms it's a HxC, Multiface and a cart emulator all in one.

I stand corrected. Didn't know it also ran cartridge files.

I still don't think we're looking for a CPC equivalent of the 1541 Ultimate though. Sure, it would be awesome if it was possible, but I doubt that a lot.
I still think what we're looking for, is a CPC equivalent of the Easy Flash 3 for the C64.

In any case, at this point I'd be happy for just about anything produced in this category for the CPC.

[Gryzor]

@mr_lou : it's not (only) about rudeness, it's about how the forum and discussions function, too. But if I've missed any rudeness towards you, please feel free to report the posts.

@TFM : so it's a storage thing that also has the ability to load cartridges. Sure, that'd be lovely, but a multicart is quite limited in its functionality. Also, good luck finding cartridge shells that fit

[endangermice]

How about we reverse the problem. Perhaps an easier approach (or at least cheaper one) is to try and transfer the cartridges to disk. I suspect in all but the simplest of games this could be reasonably complex since disk loading routines would need to be built etc. space might not be a problem if we use the higher capacity of 3.5" drives and Parados.


Just a thought...

[CraigsBar]

How about we reverse the problem. Perhaps an easier approach (or at least cheaper one) is to try and transfer the cartridges to disk. I suspect in all but the simplest of games this could be reasonably complex since disk loading routines would need to be built etc. space might not be a problem if we use the higher capacity of 3.5" drives and Parados.


Just a thought...

again a good idea, but I think in parallel to an sd cart or new carts. Simply because gx4000 users cannot use discs.

[arnoldemu]

How about we reverse the problem. Perhaps an easier approach (or at least cheaper one) is to try and transfer the cartridges to disk. I suspect in all but the simplest of games this could be reasonably complex since disk loading routines would need to be built etc. space might not be a problem if we use the higher capacity of 3.5" drives and Parados.


Just a thought...

I can't tell you how easy/hard that would be.

Storage space is not the problem. The problem is how much patching to the game it would need to make it work from disc.

[endangermice]

That's exactly what I was thinking, patching could be difficult. I need to read up more on this wiki on how the cartridge system works but I guess there's a series of addresses into which cartridge data is made available - perhaps even the full 64kb memory space. Somehow that data is swapped around for larger carts which is obviously a heck of a lot easier (and quicker) with solid state than disk.


It would be nice to see more plus games, but it's already been proved that it's perfectly possible to make them available on disk. That does unfotunately preclude GX4000 users. I think one of the problems is that the Amstrad disk system is (especially when compared to machines like the c64) damned fast which makes the presence of a cartridge format less desirable than perhaps other systems since the drive emulation isn't exactly a slouch either.

[TFM]

How about we reverse the problem. Perhaps an easier approach (or at least cheaper one) is to try and transfer the cartridges to disk. ...

Excuse me, but that's the most time consuming, most hard and simply worst idea. To move a Cartridge game from Cart to Disc it needs a major rewrite including basic things sprite routines and tile display.
And I will also tell you why. Carts have a kind of banking which does not exist for disc games, you can not just use E-RAM instead of load from disc. The cartridge ROM banks can be banked it at every address out of &0000, &4000, &8000, &C000. So they can always access different screen RAMs and can use direct transfer of sprite or tile data while regular programs must get it from expansion RAM an this can only be &4000 or &C000 (the latter one is used very seldomly only!).

[mr_lou]

Doesn't a cartridge game offer huge advantages over a disk game?

Please don't tell me we want new cartridge games just because they load faster.

I'd expect some kind of not-seen-before result.

[andycadley]

It would be nice to see more plus games, but it's already been proved that it's perfectly possible to make them available on disk. That does unfotunately preclude GX4000 users. I think one of the problems is that the Amstrad disk system is (especially when compared to machines like the c64) damned fast which makes the presence of a cartridge format less desirable than perhaps other systems since the drive emulation isn't exactly a slouch either.

I've said it before, but if you actually try to write code for the Plus machines that pushes the hardware it becomes abundantly obvious that it would be easier if you can run from cart. 64K is not nearly enough and the RAM banking scheme of the 6128+ is incredibly cumbersome as it "gets in the way" of the ASIC registers. You have to do a fair bit of juggling around to make effective use of the system in a way that you can simply sidestep with the dual ROM mapping schemes.

[arnoldemu]

Doesn't a cartridge game offer huge advantages over a disk game?

Please don't tell me we want new cartridge games just because they load faster.

I'd expect some kind of not-seen-before result.

The advantage I see is that the cart offers instant access to data. 128k of the Rom can be accessed at any page in memory, the remainder accessible in the high page. It is similar to having 128k ram on plus.

I haven't investigated exactly what benefit it gives. If someone else can give real world answers with speed comparisons and explain exactly how it benefits it would be great to share it with everyone.

What it can give us is games closer to the console experience if they are made to use joypad only. Then it becomes instant start, no pauses during play, benefits of 128k on all plus systems including gx4000, works from joypad playable at a distance on a big screen.

Has anyone got any code examples they can share which can be run on a real device which shows how cart is better if used well?

I can't claim cart is best because I haven't tested it to prove it for the best or not.

[arnoldemu]

I've said it before, but if you actually try to write code for the Plus machines that pushes the hardware it becomes abundantly obvious that it would be easier if you can run from cart. 64K is not nearly enough and the RAM banking scheme of the 6128+ is incredibly cumbersome as it "gets in the way" of the ASIC registers. You have to do a fair bit of juggling around to make effective use of the system in a way that you can simply sidestep with the dual ROM mapping schemes.

Any code examples to justify your claim?

[arnoldemu]

The good cart games are like console games. Good presentation with company logo, title screen, screen fades, many tunes, good graphics with good use of colour, no load delays, playable by joypad alone, no menus, pang has a game attract sequence with demo, many cycle through different screens when left for a time. You get more like this because of the instant load. On disk you could have identical but with load times as it switches between screens. Instant loading is a positive thing and opens up more enjoyable play.