Help game developpment! Please tell which kind of mass storage do you have?

[TFM]

For the developpment of games it's important to know which kind of mass storage people have today. In some threads we're already discussing this. Time for a poll...

BTW: I'm using the Dobbertin HD20, the SF-II and the IDE8255. (And somewhere I still have the CPC-IDE...)

[Pentagon]

Symbiface / CPC-IDE and HxC USB + HxC SD

My working machine is used with 1 Gigabyte Harddisc and Bdos and 576Kb & internal HxC SD

I would like to see a game wich is using the full possibilities of an expanded system like that.

Kindly regards
Tom

[MacDeath]

Well only 3" and 3"1/2 disk ATM and a FPGA development card too but this does not count yet


Why can't we reply "none" ? or "just mundane Disks" or "3" disks" or "3"1/2disks"

[Gryzor]

Well only 3" and 3"1/2 disk ATM and a FPGA development card too but this does not count yet


Why can't we reply "none" ? or "just mundane Disks" or "3" disks" or "3"1/2disks"

Well, for one thing, because disks are not mass storage

I also got the SD emu...

[Targhan]

And what if we have nothing of all that (like myself) ? If you don't take in account what people DON'T have, you'll make productions only for a few...

[Executioner]

Yeah, where's the None option?

[Gryzor]

It's there, can't you see it?

TFM, apologies, I amended the poll a bit...

[Devilmarkus]

The problem I see here is:
Some people think "I have ThisOS and ThatIDE and 4mb ram, so everybody must have my OS and my ram and my IDE and so on..."

Really:
Only a few people use the same config than TFM does or than Pentagon does.
I think about 80-90% are using a normal CPC with perhaps a 3,5" drive attached to.

[arnoldemu]

Symbiface / CPC-IDE and HxC USB + HxC SD

My working machine is used with 1 Gigabyte Harddisc and Bdos and 576Kb & internal HxC SD

I would like to see a game wich is using the full possibilities of an expanded system like that.

Kindly regards
Tom

Nice setup.

Well I think it would take time to fill that kind of space with a cpc game.

What would be great for others, is that if anyone who does write for a setup like this, would they please write about it in a blog or similar, so others can read about the advantages or disadvantages, and then they could be one step in front when they try the same?

[TFM]

Well, for one thing, because disks are not mass storage

I also got the SD emu...

Absolutely right! And thanks for remembering me on the disc emulators, since they can be seen as mass storage.

Well, I couldn't set up an multi option poll.

The sense of this thread is to find out which kinds of mass storage is commonly used in out community.

Looks (like expected) the SF2 is leading...

However, Pentagon and Gryzor you brought a good idea. It should be possible to use the floppy emulators as a kind of mass storage too. Let's define a format with 256 tracks, 256 sectors and a sector size of 512 bytes, this provides a disc of 32 MB - more than enough for a big game.

Is there anybody out there using a different mass storage than the SF-2 or the floppy emulator???

BTW: (and a bit @Pentagon, a byte @Devilmarkus) This thread is not caring about software, it's all about hardware.

[Devilmarkus]

@ TFM:

The problem I see here is:
Some people think "I have ThisOS and ThatIDE and 4mb ram, so everybody must have my OS and my ram and my IDE and so on..."

This was meant to some more threads where is discussed about how much ram does a CPC have, which mass storage, and also "a game like .... is possible but you need .....OS"

For me a game /app should run on an unexpanded standard CPC.
It's not the best to "pimp" your CPC to the maximum to play pacman.

[TFM]

@ TFM:
This was meant to some more threads where is discussed about how much ram does a CPC have, which mass storage, and also "a game like .... is possible but you need .....OS"

For me a game /app should run on an unexpanded standard CPC.
It's not the best to "pimp" your CPC to the maximum to play pacman.

Sorry mate, you miss the point, and you're going off-topic. The question here is "WHICH KIND OF MASS STORAGE ARE YOU USING - IF YOU ARE USING MASS STORAGE?".

And the reason is to find out WHICH type of mass storage is used by many CPC owners, and which only by few.

[Devilmarkus]

Sorry mate, you miss the point, and you're going off-topic. The question here is "WHICH KIND OF MASS STORAGE ARE YOU USING - IF YOU ARE USING MASS STORAGE?".

And the reason is to find out WHICH type of mass storage is used my many, and which only by few.

Well for me it looks like Help game development! Please tell which kind of mass storage do you have?
So only when you know which mass-storage is used, you want to develop new CPC games?
Develop them. But for 3/3.5" disc for unexpanded standard CPCs

Edit:
Example:
Orion Prime is a very complex game (also when it does not have any AI) and runs on all 128k CPC's (Designed for 3" and 3.5" drives)
Many people play it.
Giana Sisters remake is designed for FutureOS (You know, FutureOS is cool, nothing against it)
Perhaps a few people try it on their modified CPC with the rom's.
A few more try it on an emulator which supports FutureOS functionality.
But the most people can never play it because they have a standard CPC...

[arnoldemu]

Sorry mate, you miss the point, and you're going off-topic. The question here is "WHICH KIND OF MASS STORAGE ARE YOU USING - IF YOU ARE USING MASS STORAGE?".

And the reason is to find out WHICH type of mass storage is used by many CPC owners, and which only by few.

I do have a symbiface 2, but I haven't plugged it into my computer.

So is the question more about making the game so it is compatible with this mass storage and can run of it in addition to running off other media, or making a game that exclusively uses this, or a game which provides extras if you have it?

EDIT:
My main reason for using the symbiface 2 would be:

1. To use the harddrive to store cpc programs and to load them quickly. I expect a lot of games would not load from the symbiface so would require patching or hacking to do this. Here I am not thinking of snapshots, but the game is stored as files.

2. To use the extra ram for programs that use it. If a program uses extra ram then that is great.

3. To use the "rom" (programmable ram) to allow me to develop rom programs, or to test more OSes like FutureOS, or to use tools like Starkos on ROM.

4. Also the coolness of having a harddrive also means that maybe a better version of Contiki or maybe an Amstrad connected to the internet could be more of a reality or more easy to do.

I also considered modifying some programs to support mice and cpc+ analogue joystick, but I've not done any work on this yet.

For me, I don't want to load snapshots, these are not clean. I want to see loader, title screen and all levels load from other mass storage.

Ok now a question:

We have mass storage in various forms.. but there are different OSes and there are different "formats", and probably different functions to load/save data. Having the game support all the different combinations is a lot of work!!!!
So what do you suggest here?

EDIT2: What do I want from mass storage?
1. To use firmware functions to read files, or at least have a common I/O way to read "blocks".
2. I don't want to try and support different formats, or different functions. I want one way that works.
3. The functions to do this are in a ROM that starts up when the computer is turned on.

I am not familiar with futureos, or programming using it's api.

[TFM]

The question here is "WHICH KIND OF MASS STORAGE ARE YOU USING - IF YOU ARE USING MASS STORAGE?".

In case somebody didn't read it before ;-)

[Ygdrazil]

I think precise answer to the question really depends on what you mean by Mass Storage:

eg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_storage

It does not get less complicated by the fact that the CPC is a historical platform!(Or is it?) 

Hmm...

Its hot  maybe bio- brain does not work!

/Ygdrazil

In case somebody didn't read it before ;-)

[TFM]

Ok, let's say, we're talking about real existing hardware! Only hardware you can touch! No vaporware. (To know what exists, take a look at the poll).

One target of this poll is to find out which type of mass storage is used most often. Looks like this is the SF2, since the SF2 is very new, I didn't expect anything else. But, who is #2???

However, on befefit of this poll was already to point to the SD HxC floppy emulator, which is also a kind of mass storage and seems to be an upcoming standard for the CPC!

Another aim in general is to provide information to any programmer, who thinks about supporting any kind of mass storage. (For applications or whatever).

I hope that this poll will also answer another question, that is "How much of the older mass storage devices are still in use".

If today nobody uses the Vortex Winchester or the Dobbertin HD20 any longer, then forget it.
However, like I know thousands of them were sold. They can't all have been disappeared. (Ok, I heart about an insane guy who dropped his HD20 to the trash! How stupid can someone be??? I don't name him here).

[TFM]

Giana Sisters remake is designed for FutureOS (You know, FutureOS is cool, nothing against it)
Perhaps a few people try it on their modified CPC with the rom's.
A few more try it on an emulator which supports FutureOS functionality.
But the most people can never play it because they have a standard CPC...

Mate, you're getting off-topic again. So let me clear this:

For example there were maybe 100 SF-II sold, so at least 100 CPC users can install FutureOS (which was originally intended to be installed in every SF2, until PDT changed his mind... but that's another story...). Also a lot of people have a RAMcard or a ROM-RAM-Box or a EPROM card. I think that maybe 70% of the CPC users today have expanded RAM and ROM. So to install FutureOS is not a problem. However I know, for some guy's the pure 128 KB machine is a religion (but they add everything to their PCs - don't they? hahaha .

And about "modified CPC", that's just WRONG, nobody must modify a CPC, you can use your expanson port. Plug in - plug out - as often as you want.

Finally, as you said everybody can use an emulator.



I've good reasons to developp my software for FutureOS (IMHO the best reasons) and if you have an other opinion, I respect it, but in this case just developp something by yourself - and release it!

BTW: What's about Elvira?

[arnoldemu]

For example there were maybe 100 SF-II sold, so at least 100 CPC users can install FutureOS (which was originally intended to be installed in every SF2, until PDT changed his mind... but that's another story...). Also a lot of people have a RAMcard or a ROM-RAM-Box or a EPROM card. I think that maybe 70% of the CPC users today have expanded RAM and ROM. So to install FutureOS is not a problem. However I know, for some guy's the pure 128 KB machine is a religion (but they add everything to their PCs - don't they? hahaha .

I think we will never agree about the % of CPC users who have expanded RAM and ROM. And you are almost correct pure machines are what I favour the most and almost my religion.

But when it comes to PCs I've actually downgraded (but this due to not having enough money).

I went from a 1.4Ghz athlon to a 1.0Ghz Athlon.
Still ok for running emus and CPC game development

And about "modified CPC", that's just WRONG, nobody must modify a CPC, you can use your expanson port. Plug in - plug out - as often as you want.

One of mine is modified for side switch and ABBA switch. And here I will claim that 90% of people who have a 3.5" drive on their CPC, will also have these modifications. But I know we are not talking about these so much.

  Finally, as you said everybody can use an emulator.

Indeed, and here I claim most people will. Of course a lot of hardcore fans will also transfer to real media and run on a real machine, and in the case of orion prime you need a real machine to see the real beauty of this production. (Myself I find the game boring, but I really appreciate the development and production that has gone into this game. Really nicely done, a grade to which we should all try to copy or better)

    I've good reasons to developp my software for FutureOS (IMHO the best reasons) and if you have an other opinion, I respect it, but in this case just developp something by yourself - and release it!

Yes of course Because you are the father of FutureOS and it is your child.

If I was TFM and I had written FutureOS, then I would do the same

      BTW: What's about Elvira?

Originally Markus wrote it in BASIC. He had some functionality working. Some people effectively told him to give up.
I am thinking about writing the engine code in C with z88dk and cpcrslib. The rest of the game data would be filled in by Markus and compiled into a form the game using tools I give to him.
Of course, this is a perfect idea, and in the end I will need to code a lot more than I think
But I think it would be nice to get this game done, and also then release the source code to a adventure engine like this.

[TFM]

Thanks for your long answer! You have some good points!