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General Category => Amstrad CPC hardware => Topic started by: Edoz(MSX) on 16:27, 27 March 17

Title: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 16:27, 27 March 17
 Dear CPC community, I am following this community now for a while, because my interest in SymbOS. My main and beloved home computer is a MSX computer and not a CPC but I found out since Prodatron ported SymbOS to the MSX that the CPC and MSX share the same CPU and are both super cool 8-bit machines. Last week I talked with a MSX hardware developer (From technobytes, builder of a lot cool hardware for MSX) and we discussed the CPC for a while. On the MSX we have a lot of hardware expansions, some are IO based, like the GFX9000 (Which is a video chip/card) and we think we could make an adapter for it so that you can hookup the GFX9000 to your CPC. On the MSX we have slots, and on the CPC you have this extension port which share the same idea. Extending hardware. We think, we could make an adapter so that you good hookup I/O based MSX hardware to it. Maybe, it would be cool to make this. The GFX9000 (V9990) is already supported by SymbOS, so probably that will work on the CPC as well. Question is if there is any interest for this kind of adapter in the CPC community? If so, we could maybe invest time to make something like this. With this adapter, you could hookup the GFX9000 on the CPC giving you new resolutions and screens. In SymbOS you could enjoy 16 colors, but the hardware supports even more. The V9990 was build for the MSX3 but was never used because the MSX3 was never released at that time.
 
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Ygdrazil on 18:22, 27 March 17

If this comes through... this is another must have expansion for the CPC!  :o


So yes I would take two!


/Ygdrazil

Dear CPC community, I am following this community now for a while, because my interest in SymbOS. My main and beloved home computer is a MSX computer and not a CPC but I found out since Prodatron ported SymbOS to the MSX that the CPC and MSX share the same CPU and are both super cool 8-bit machines. Last week I talked with a MSX hardware developer (From technobytes, builder of a lot cool hardware for MSX) and we discussed the CPC for a while. On the MSX we have a lot of hardware expansions, some are IO based, like the GFX9000 (Which is a video chip/card) and we think we could make an adapter for it so that you can hookup the GFX9000 to your CPC. On the MSX we have slots, and on the CPC you have this extension port which share the same idea. Extending hardware. We think, we could make an adapter so that you good hookup I/O based MSX hardware to it. Maybe, it would be cool to make this. The GFX9000 (V9990) is already supported by SymbOS, so probably that will work on the CPC as well. Question is if there is any interest for this kind of adapter in the CPC community? If so, we could maybe invest time to make something like this. With this adapter, you could hookup the GFX9000 on the CPC giving you new resolutions and screens. In SymbOS you could enjoy 16 colors, but the hardware supports even more. The V9990 was build for the MSX3 but was never used because the MSX3 was never released at that time.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: HAL 6128 on 23:13, 27 March 17
...what are the features possible for the CPC? The same like the MSX?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: XeNoMoRPH on 23:37, 27 March 17
I really don't know what could be achieved with this but it is amazing  :o :o :o :o
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Duke on 23:43, 27 March 17
With it's own video-out. Anything should be possible on a CPC aswell. Good idea for future software taking advantage.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Scarlettkitten on 01:03, 28 March 17
This is a fantastic idea :) 8)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: keith56 on 06:20, 28 March 17
It certainly sounds a novel idea, and I'd be interested in getting one if it became available.

I assume its ram would bank in like the regular CPC memory and CPC plus Asic registers?

As it has 512k video ram could unused video ram be used as standard memory?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Ygdrazil on 08:33, 28 March 17

Hi Keith56


No the GFX9000 has its own memory, so it's completely separate from the CPC conventional memory!


The GFP9000 is not like the video system we know from the CPC either, it's I/O based not DMA based, so it will not affect the amount of memory free for programs etc. I suspect it will not even affect the standard display of the CPC either and simply attach as a second display!


Interesting :-)

/Ygdrazil

It certainly sounds a novel idea, and I'd be interested in getting one if it became available.

I assume its ram would bank in like the regular CPC memory and CPC plus Asic registers?

As it has 512k video ram could unused video ram be used as standard memory?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 13:32, 30 March 17
Yes true!, The GFX9000 or V9990 is a separate video card with his own memory. For SymbOS it wouldn't matter. You get the same functionality as on the MSX system. Beside the GFX9000 hardware there are a lot of different sound extensions for the MSX which are IO based. Like the OPL2 /3 and 4.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: ||C|-|E|| on 17:24, 30 March 17
I would definitely support something like a video card for the CPC, and particularly such a classic model from 1994. If it is ever released, I will be totally buying a few! Couple it to a 2MB/4MB memory expansion and WOW!  :o
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 17:51, 30 March 17
As long as the expansion port has the necessary I/O for the chip, and it can be mapped into the CPC I/O port addressing scheme, then this sounds viable, as it would merely be another I/O device. Obviously it wouldn't be a drop-in replacement for anything, so it wouldn't be quite like the MSX in terms of support. It would be exotic hardware, and not have much support (picture viewers, symbos once adapted, etc). Still, dual-monitor would be neat.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: pelrun on 18:46, 30 March 17
Sounds very cool. How easy it is to actually get a hold of a GFX9000 card, though?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Ygdrazil on 23:23, 30 March 17

That is a good question!


Maybe some of the MSX guys can cast some light on this issue!?


/Ygdrazil

Sounds very cool. How easy it is to actually get a hold of a GFX9000 card, though?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 13:11, 31 March 17
That is a good question!


Maybe some of the MSX guys can cast some light on this issue!?


/Ygdrazil


TechnoBytes, Which is (maybe, if enough people are interested) willing to make this adapter for the CPC, is also the creator of the the V9990 currently for the MSX. I think they can make a new batch as well in combination with this adapter. Of course, first we need a prototype so we are sure it works for SymbOS on the CPC like it does on the MSX. Other software is out of my hands, but maybe it possible to port some from the MSX.

Of course, using SymbOS we can make applications and games for it which will work on both systems.

Link of the website:

http://www.tecnobytes.com.br/ (http://www.tecnobytes.com.br/)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 15:45, 31 March 17
I really like the positive reaction to this very cool idea here! :) I would take about 5 adapter cards. I wonder how much pre-orders are needed for this project?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Joseman on 15:57, 31 March 17
of course i will take 1 or 2 minimum of this marvellous card!!

maybe it's time for a preorder list?

Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: HAL 6128 on 17:40, 31 March 17

Sounds good. One card for me too!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Kris on 19:35, 31 March 17
Interested in 1 card ;)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: CraigsBar on 02:02, 01 April 17
One for me too please.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Scarlettkitten on 03:04, 01 April 17
Interested in 1 :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Ygdrazil on 12:08, 01 April 17
If I understand correctly with this great new adapter card it would also be possible to connect other MSX devices, like external soundcards, to CPC as well?


Which I/O ports will the adapter occupy!?


Hopefully it will not conflict with existing devices or the future CPC-PI bridge card (described elsewhere)!


/Ygdrazil
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: pelrun on 06:46, 02 April 17
I'm definitely interested in one (plus a v9990).
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: keith56 on 09:42, 02 April 17
I'm not quite understanding how to program for this,

Are we looking at a device which will only be used via Out (C),X commands?

if that's the case, won't it be very slow? I mean, it won't matter for graphics and the like, but for games that would be difficult.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Ygdrazil on 11:48, 02 April 17

No.. just different!


The process is to send all the graphics for eg. a level. (Sprites, tiles etc. - the GFX9000 has 512Kb)


Then tell the GFX9000 what to do with the stuff...


The V9900 chip of the GFX9000 features a lot of interesting stuff:


Commands for fast block transfers, sprites, line drawing different graphical modes etc. etc.


Read more here:


http://msxbanzai.tni.nl/v9990/manual.html (http://msxbanzai.tni.nl/v9990/manual.html)


Here is an example of a game using the GFX9000 on the MSX!


[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2iSGXSs5b4[/youtube]


Would be so cool to be able to explore its features from the CPC!


Also i think SymbOS would be easy to adapt for the V9900!


Regards,
Ygdrazil



[youtube]
I'm not quite understanding how to program for this,

Are we looking at a device which will only be used via Out (C),X commands?

if that's the case, won't it be very slow? I mean, it won't matter for graphics and the like, but for games that would be difficult.
[/youtube]
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: hsimpson on 10:47, 03 April 17
I'm interested in 1 (+ v9990).
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Singaja on 14:36, 03 April 17
I'm also interested when it's available ( +1 )
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: NiNxPe on 15:22, 03 April 17
+1  :D
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Skunkfish on 17:53, 03 April 17
I'm definitely interested, if  although I won't commit just yet. This is just the adapter, and we'll need to source our on Gfx 9000? Or will they be sold together?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: CraigsBar on 18:30, 03 April 17
I am hoping together ☺️
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 15:12, 04 April 17
Thank you all for your positive reactions.

Just to inform you about the status:

Yesterday i bought myself a CPC (as i didn't own one)
I need to test this CPC and send it together with the MotherX4 to brazil as test unit for techobytes.

After this techonobytes will try to make a prototype adapter. I think the best way is that we make an adapter for the MotherX4.
Because you want to connect multiple devices to the CPC (this seems the best and only way to do it).

Of course i ask him also if it could be sold as a package (V9990 with the adapter) as you need both.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: CraigsBar on 18:06, 04 April 17
Awesome 😉
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 18:00, 18 May 17
Update on this:
It took some time to get a good working CPC with all the needed devices for testing.
Currently I'm preparing the package with all the equipment, and to send to brazil, so they have the machine for testing.

Let's see if it will work out! So we will have this voodoo card ;)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: ASiC on 18:27, 18 May 17
Count me in too  :D
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Joseman on 22:38, 18 May 17
Update on this:
It took some time to get a good working CPC with all the needed devices for testing.
Currently I'm preparing the package with all the equipment, and to send to brazil, so they have the machine for testing.

Let's see if it will work out! So we will have this voodoo card ;)

Maybe snake will be faster then? ;)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: zhulien on 06:39, 31 May 17
add me to the list if it can be used with the MX4...
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Gryzor on 10:47, 01 June 17
That's exciting :) Of course it won't do anything unless people support it, but nobody will if it's not made, so count me in!


I don't know if it'd make any sense to not produce a bundle...
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Dubliner on 23:18, 01 June 17
I would also be interested in a pack with both the adapter and the card :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: tjohnson on 13:49, 02 June 17
This looks an interesting concept, the way I've read this is it effectively a self contained computer with the interface allowing instructions to be downloaded from an external machine like the CPC to the add-on.   Does anything actually run on the Amstrad once the code download is done?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: ASiC on 14:10, 02 June 17
This looks an interesting concept, the way I've read this is it effectively a self contained computer with the interface allowing instructions to be downloaded from an external machine like the CPC to the add-on.   Does anything actually run on the Amstrad once the code download is done?


My understanding is that it off loads the video processing to the video chip (drawing, scrolling, sprites etc) but the z80 is the main man behind telling it where to/from scroll, draw etc.


Also gameplay logic is still done one the z80
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Gryzor on 14:54, 02 June 17
On that front, we have to realise of course that it's not a 'pure' CPC anymore. We have discussed this a few times in the past, but I'd like to see what would be possible :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: tjohnson on 15:37, 02 June 17

My understanding is that it off loads the video processing to the video chip (drawing, scrolling, sprites etc) but the z80 is the main man behind telling it where to/from scroll, draw etc.


Also gameplay logic is still done one the z80

That makes sense if all it did was effectively download stuff from CPC to addon then seems no point using the CPC, but if the main game code is running on the CPC then that sounds interesting to effectively have an upgraded graphics capability.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: VincentGR on 16:26, 02 June 17
It is a SNES case here with the Z80 trying to catch up things but hey, this is the best news I've ever heard for my cpc.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: ASiC on 01:22, 03 June 17
It is a SNES case here with the Z80 trying to catch up things but hey, this is the best news I've ever heard for my cpc.


It's like using the internal gfx chip of the cpc. But instead, the data is routed to the vdp.


/me is dreaming of a cpc with dual monitor support  :D
Also, ports from msx might be possible...?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 20:56, 23 July 17
Hi! I received some news from technobytes about he v9990 video chip. Some months ago i send them a complete CPC for testing.
Currently they are working hard to make a prototype for the CPC. It is still in development, but here some pictures, from the prototype board!
The developed board is plugged in on the MotherX4, and some first communication with the hardware is possible :D So good news!


(http://members.home.nl/evanzanten/forum/v9990-1.jpg)


(http://members.home.nl/evanzanten/forum/v9990-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: GUNHED on 23:41, 23 July 17
Oh, an interesting project. So this is an external GFX card for the CPC? What are the advantages? Isn't it quite slow to send all GFX data to the card via OUT commands instead to write into V-RAM?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: keith56 on 01:17, 24 July 17
Oh, an interesting project. So this is an external GFX card for the CPC? What are the advantages? Isn't it quite slow to send all GFX data to the card via OUT commands instead to write into V-RAM?
From my limited MSX2 coding...
Yes,just writing data to the GPU is slower, but even in bitmap mode it allows you to copy all your 'sprite' data to spare gpu ram before the game loop, then send commands like 'copy this memory to this position' and it's effectively like multithreading, the GPU just gets on with it, and you can do other stuff.

I believe the 9990 has some pretty decent tiling and sprite code too, so it will be more like coding a console than the bitmapped system we're used to.

As the MSX2 has the same sound chip and 64k base ram like the CPC, this should encourage ports of the newer MSX games to the CPC... unfortunately, however, as the MSX3 that this was intended for was never completed, it's my understanding that the 9990 is not backwards compatible with the MSX2/+ GPU... so it will not enable easy porting of MSX2 games...

please correct me if I'm wrong!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: zhulien on 08:30, 24 July 17
nice, do you have an MSX to Mother X4 adapter?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: GUNHED on 16:31, 24 July 17
That looks like the CPC will be the first MSX 3 then!?! @Keith56: Thank you for the information :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Bryce on 17:02, 24 July 17
A nice idea and proof of concept, but as long as it's external it will never get even close to being useful. An internal solution that reads the same RAM as the 6845 is the only way it's going to be fast enough for gaming.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 17:39, 24 July 17
A nice idea and proof of concept, but as long as it's external it will never get even close to being useful. An internal solution that reads the same RAM as the 6845 is the only way it's going to be fast enough for gaming.
The VDP9990 is a dedicated graphic card which supports both bitmap and pattern mode (2 layers + sprites; paralax scrolling), games implemented with it will be much faster at a higher resolution and more colours. But that was already discussed and described in this thread some pages ago. Writing bitmap data from the CPU into the VRAM of the graphic card can be done at about the same speed, you define a rectangle and then just OUT all bytes to its port without the need to do a "next line" after x bytes. OUTI:INC B is 1 nop slower than LDI, but you don't have the "next line" thing. But escpecial in games you will hardly copy bitmap data to the VRAM anyway during the normal gameplay, as you have 512KB of dedicated video ram. Moving/copying stuff inside the 9990 video ram is unbelieveable fast and doesn't require any relevant Z80 time anyway.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: keith56 on 06:40, 25 July 17
A nice idea and proof of concept, but as long as it's external it will never get even close to being useful. An internal solution that reads the same RAM as the 6845 is the only way it's going to be fast enough for gaming.

The 9990 has more ram than the whole CPC, so there's no need to worry about it accessing the CPC's memory itself...
I've looked at the MSX2 GPU as I plan to port my Chibi Akumas game to it, as far as I understand this 9990 works about the same for the CPC as the built in GPU of the MSX2... and I can say that if you try to do things with an 'external' (OUT based) GPU the same way as you did with an internal (memory addressed) one, you are probably going to struggle, but that's not to say it's not capable of fast stuff.. you can tell it 'copy that area of the screen to here'... and it will start, and you can just get on with other things while it does it... on the CPC, you'd have to copy each byte yourself, and couldn't do other things at the same time...

I'll know more when I really dig into the MSX next year, but I think to say 'external GPU's are too slow' is wrong, 'You have to program and design differently to be fast with external GPU's' would be more accurate.

I can't see this taking off in a big way on the CPC unless a lot of people had it, or there were some big name games using it... the average CPC developer is only going to target what the average CPC user has.

but as I said, If some of the developers using it on the MSX were to consider porting their games to the CPC, maybe it could take off... the CPC has the same sound chip, and 64k of ram like the MSX, so there would probably not be too much work needed to get a game running on both systems.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Bryce on 09:59, 25 July 17
The VDP9990 is a dedicated graphic card which supports both bitmap and pattern mode (2 layers + sprites; paralax scrolling), games implemented with it will be much faster at a higher resolution and more colours. But that was already discussed and described in this thread some pages ago. Writing bitmap data from the CPU into the VRAM of the graphic card can be done at about the same speed, you define a rectangle and then just OUT all bytes to its port without the need to do a "next line" after x bytes. OUTI:INC B is 1 nop slower than LDI, but you don't have the "next line" thing. But escpecial in games you will hardly copy bitmap data to the VRAM anyway during the normal gameplay, as you have 512KB of dedicated video ram. Moving/copying stuff inside the 9990 video ram is unbelieveable fast and doesn't require any relevant Z80 time anyway.

If that's the case and there's no bottleneck getting data to it, then it could be very interesting indeed. I hadn't read the whole thread, so I haven't seen those details earlier.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 10:18, 25 July 17
The v9990 is far from slow. Cool thing is that it was designed for 8 bit computers. And yes, it was planned back then to put in the MSX3, but MSX3 was never released.

After the port to the CPC you can run SymbOS on it. Like in this movie:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZncAivCiXpI[/youtube]

I guess, in SymbOS there will be no difference if you compare the CPC and MSX. In fact, the CPC is a little bit faster then the standard MSX2.  ;D ;D ;D   




Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 11:26, 25 July 17
Hey I thought I would give a bit of insight as to what is planned. Potentially this could be the CPC upgrade I always dreamed of


First its strange that Edo, who is an MSX guy had the idea to add this add-on card for the MSX, and then supplied another MSX hardware guy with a CPC so this could be tried.


Edo is part of our little Symbos group... and coding cross platform - different resolutions - 2/4/16 colours. Edo has been responsible for coding a number of apps and games that ran amazingly well within the GUI of Symbos... however we all knew that anything but simple games would be near impossible cross platform given Symbos works to a lowest common denominator graphics hardware-wise. This has led to many late night discussion of how great it would be if the baseline hardware was the vdp9990 (gfx9000). Edo went to the MSX community and found somebody who could make this add-on happen... it appears to work just as the gfx9000 does for the MSX range and turns the video into an Amiga level game machine.


So here's the plan for Symbos & the V9990 as I think I understand it.


1. Symbos will have a full screen mode targetted to the v9990 (Kinda DirectX). So cross platform... Not ports. This means the same game will run on MSX+Card, Turbo-R, CPC+Card and any new hardware that might be added like Enterprise+Card in the future.
2. Having Symbos as the OS means we have the benefits of Mass Media storage and even Network support.
3. Development will be made as easy and fast as possible using Quigs which will contain a compiler, mapping tools, animator (Think halfway between AGD and Unity)


If this happens like this I'd like to think people will create games, but even if not I know Edo and I will.


Obviously from a non Symbos viewpoint its just video card and a CPC-centric coder could develop for this themselves, but it will be easier via the symbos  library imho
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: keith56 on 12:09, 25 July 17
After the port to the CPC you can run SymbOS on it. Like in this movie:

Now, to be fair, that's running on the turbo-R!! - isn't it's performance the equivalent of 10X a conventional Z80?

Is there any possibility of this thing being converted for the ZX spectrum? Heck those guys need a video upgrade more than the CPC owners!!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 12:26, 25 July 17
Now, to be fair, that's running on the turbo-R!! - isn't it's performance the equivalent of 10X a conventional Z80?

Is there any possibility of this thing being converted for the ZX spectrum? Heck those guys need a video upgrade more than the CPC owners!!


I think the 4mhz z80 and VDP9990 will create a beast. Oh and the Spectrum crowd are getting the Spectrum Next which offers a similar upgrade in graphics to this.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: keith56 on 12:47, 25 July 17
Oh and the Spectrum crowd are getting the Spectrum Next which offers a similar upgrade in graphics to this.
The MSX, Spectrum 128 and CPC all have the same sound chip, if the 9990 GPU was available on the spectrum as well one could port the same game to all three systems without too many changes - I'm aware that the spectrum Next offers crazy upgrades - but it's a FPGA, not discrete hardware, and I'm afraid that doesn't count in my book!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 12:54, 25 July 17
The MSX, Spectrum 128 and CPC all have the same sound chip, if the 9990 GPU was available on the spectrum as well one could port the same game to all three systems without too many changes - I'm aware that the spectrum Next offers crazy upgrades - but it's a FPGA, not discrete hardware, and I'm afraid that doesn't count in my book!
Well as part of the symbos team I'm really only thinking along the lines of hardware that can support symbos and the Spectrum doesn't. If somebody clever enough wants to take this idea that's now been proven on the cpc and convert it to the spectrum - well they'd probably get a lot of orders for it.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: rpalmer on 13:33, 25 July 17
While the MSX graphics card be (and appears to have been) ported to the CPC in a hardware sense, the issue performance is a different issue to consider. I could easily interface a standard PC VGA card to the CPC and get it to work. The obvious issue is now how much performance I gain from such a device connected to the CPC. In both cases i would speculate the both would be slower than what has been we can expected from the native CPC designs.

To put this example into perspective, the MSX system probably does not slow down the Z80/R800 CPU to get video data. This leaves the MSX the ability to use a DMA which can transfer large amounts of data far more quickly than with simple software solutions. The Z80 DMA will have been most likely included into the MSX design which can send data from memory to a single port and this makes the whole issue of video data transfers far easier and certainly far quicker. There is also the possibility to transfer data from media to the graphics card direct.

rpalmer
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 14:02, 25 July 17
While the MSX graphics card be (and appears to have been) ported to the CPC in a hardware sense, the issue performance is a different issue to consider. I could easily interface a standard PC VGA card to the CPC and get it to work. The obvious issue is now how much performance I gain from such a device connected to the CPC. In both cases i would speculate the both would be slower than what has been we can expected from the native CPC designs.

To put this example into perspective, the MSX system probably does not slow down the Z80/R800 CPU to get video data. This leaves the MSX the ability to use a DMA which can transfer large amounts of data far more quickly than with simple software solutions. The Z80 DMA will have been most likely included into the MSX design which can send data from memory to a single port and this makes the whole issue of video data transfers far easier and certainly far quicker. There is also the possibility to transfer data from media to the graphics card direct.

rpalmer


All those points are incorrect. The Turbo-R has a souped up R800 to be fair but the standard MSX2 + the CPC communicate in the same way to the VDP9990 via IN's & OUT's. The MSX2 doesnt have DMA. The MSX2 has a slightly slower Z80 than the CPC.
So if anything a CPC with a vdp9990 card will be a tiny bit faster than a MSX2 with a GFX9000 card (and yet those fly)


The speed comes because once you taken the time to OUT the data to the 512k VRAM all the z80 has to do is issue the commands to move that data around... the shifting work is all done by the card. Useless for graphically dynamic games like Elite perhaps, but for Platformers, Shooters, Arcade and most other common 8bit titles the improvement over standard cpc modes will be astonishing imho
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 14:16, 25 July 17
I could easily interface a standard PC VGA card to the CPC and get it to work.
A standard VGA card doesn't have a blitter, pattern mode and hardware sprites.

The Z80 DMA will have been most likely included
There is no need for DMA regarding transfering data from the Z80 memory to the video memory during gameplay. Pre-filled 512KB of video RAM usually is more than enough.

The 9990 is already much faster on a normal 3,5MHz MSX2 compared to the standard MSX VDP9938 graphic. And this (the old 9938) is already accelerated compared to the CPC way of handling graphics.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: rpalmer on 15:14, 25 July 17
I was not trying to make an issue of what has been done, but I think this is great conversion of hardware from one platform to another.

In regards to VGA card connection I was only just putting it up for comparison with what can be achieved (and it can be done with the right hardware interface), but i too doubt there is a need for a VGA card connected to the CPC. For the moment I also cannot see an immediate need for such a card, since much of the software outside of symbos would need substantial changes to make them work.

The design of the MSX and DMA was my error and I assumed such was incorporated (thanks for pointing that out to me). But you have to agree that it is more easily connectable to an MSX than to a CPC.

The issue of a DMA was to highlight that data transfers could be made to be faster to relieve the burden from the Z80 or even the R800.

rpalmer
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: robcfg on 15:44, 25 July 17
The thing is, you're thinking on using the GFX9000 the same way you usually do things on the CPC.


The win here is that you upload the heavy graphics data to the GFX9000 and then you only have to issue commands like "put that sprite here" or "copy that tile there" instead of copying the sprite or tile data.


So, no need for DMA and no slowdowns or bottlenecks once you uploaded your data to the GFX9000.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Scarlettkitten on 15:47, 25 July 17

Exactly, I for one am looking forward to what can be done with this on the cpc, plus I'm a big symbos fan so.... :)



The thing is, you're thinking on using the GFX9000 the same way you usually do things on the CPC.


The win here is that you upload the heavy graphics data to the GFX9000 and then you only have to issue commands like "put that sprite here" or "copy that tile there" instead of copying the sprite or tile data.


So, no need for DMA and no slowdowns or bottlenecks once you uploaded your data to the GFX9000.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: roudoudou on 16:16, 25 July 17
how about the cost to play with this?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 16:22, 25 July 17
Well clearly a piece of hardware such as this only becomes worthwhile when it is supported by software. Hopefully something we will achieve. One other small worry would be lack of emulation. At the moment we can emulate the symbos v9990 in OpenMsx, but obviously for CPC users that would be wrong, as they'd want to emulate in WinApe or Arnold etc.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: roudoudou on 16:30, 25 July 17
I trust Kevin  8)


Such a card would be fun but the cost of 90$ (for MSX version) may be too expensive for a massive spread.



Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Bryce on 16:41, 25 July 17
I trust Kevin  8)


Such a card would be fun but the cost of 90$ (for MSX version) may be too expensive for a massive spread.

The MSX version doesn't need a convertor card, so unless a CPC specific version is made, the CPC expansion will be more expensive.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: andycadley on 01:18, 26 July 17

Now, to be fair, that's running on the turbo-R!! - isn't it's performance the equivalent of 10X a conventional Z80?

Is there any possibility of this thing being converted for the ZX spectrum? Heck those guys need a video upgrade more than the CPC owners!!


I suspect the feedback from the Speccy scene would be along the lines of: If all you're doing is using the Z80 to drive an MSX graphics chip, in what way is this a Speccy? Certainly this was raised the argument raised against a whole bunch of suggested graphical improvements, prior to ULA+, which inherently just removed the Speccy-ness in the pursuit of adding better graphics. It is an argument I'd tend to follow along with. If I wanted to write for the MSX, why wouldn't I just target an MSX?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 11:20, 26 July 17

I suspect the feedback from the Speccy scene would be along the lines of: If all you're doing is using the Z80 to drive an MSX graphics chip, in what way is this a Speccy? Certainly this was raised the argument raised against a whole bunch of suggested graphical improvements, prior to ULA+, which inherently just removed the Speccy-ness in the pursuit of adding better graphics. It is an argument I'd tend to follow along with. If I wanted to write for the MSX, why wouldn't I just target an MSX?


Hmmm well I'd say its still the Spectrum but with a piece of late 80's hardware attached to it. The Spectrum Next is this but without one piece of genuine hardware.... and yet 3000 of these have been bought so not all the Speccy scene can believe this.


Perhaps just don't buy this piece of hardware If you think this hardware makes the CPC no longer a CPC, or it will be slow, or it will be too expensive. personally I'm not sure why people have to make these comments unless you want it to fail



Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: robcfg on 11:25, 26 July 17
I guess nothing prevents using both displays, right?


It would be awesome to have a double screen game, hehe  ;D
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Bryce on 11:33, 26 July 17
personally I'm not sure why people have to make these comments unless you want it to fail

I don't think it undermines the original computer, be it MSX, CPC or Spectrum. Nor do I think it would be too expensive if done properly. However, the "questioning" comments from users are a very important part of the development process. If everybody just sang its praise and there were no critical comments, then the product would not end up technically or financially optimised. That's how hardware development works.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 12:41, 26 July 17

Its just a moot point discussing whether something should exist when it already does and we've got a number of pages of people saying they'd like to buy it.
The argument over whether a piece of new hardware makes it no longer the original hardware has been discussed forever, is 100% a personal opinion and its just an easy way to derail something you don't want but others might. 


Basically there comes a point where the 'should we create this' becomes 'what can it do and do I want it?'

Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: HAL 6128 on 12:50, 26 July 17
3. Development will be made as easy and fast as possible using Quigs which will contain a compiler, mapping tools, animator (Think halfway between AGD and Unity)
...is Quigs or Unity still under development?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 12:55, 26 July 17
...is Quigs or Unity still under development?
Yes, that's what I'm doing
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: rpalmer on 13:59, 26 July 17
What people should weigh up are the Pros and Cons.

Pros (in no particular order):

1. New hardware.

2. Possibly faster games.

3. Better graphics and capabilities.

4. The extra memory may be used for other purposes (RAM DISC?).

5. A great achievement to attach such a video card.

6. Can attach a new monitor such as a VGA for clear pictures (and they would be sharp).

7. Make the display standard between two distinct platforms. A big bonus for future software developments.

Cons (also in no particular order):

1. Does not run in a native CPC without changes to the firmware to make a default device to see things. Although this may not be such a drawback in the future.

2. Cannot replace the native design as there are timing/interrupt issues to consider as well as DRAM refreshing issues.

3. Cost maybe a big issue for take up.

4. Don't expect this to allow anyone to play movies with decent playback. The MSX R800 makes it look okay, but at approx 10x Z80 speed the R800 is clearly not worried about it.

5. Uncertain availability of the V9990 chip may make this kit a limited run. I have tried to source the 765 FDC and find it is mostly only from ebay and suspect the same for the V9990. These were developed in the late 80's or early 90's, so i can be safe to say that availability is going to be an issue. This particular concern may be negated if the V9990 is replaced with a CPLD or FPGA to do the same thing.

6. Existing games will not run with it without changes. This is a big problem when they have dedicated routines to make most efficient use of the existing native design. I am assuming the source  is available which for the most is not.


There could be many other pros and cons which I have not considered, so by all means comment and question the development. For me it is at least something different to the normal hardware we have recently seen and look forward to see how this progresses.

rpalmer
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: andycadley on 15:25, 26 July 17

I don't see it as a "you shouldn't want it", mor a question of "Why would I want it?" What do I gain over just getting an MSX with an upgrade (which surely has more software?)


We're all mucking about with obsolete hardware after all, just because you can is certainly as good a reason as any.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: robcfg on 15:29, 26 July 17
Quote
6. Existing games will not run with it without changes. This is a big problem when they have dedicated routines to make most efficient use of the existing native design. I am assuming the source  is available which for the most is not.


Why is that? As far as I know, it does not disable the standard video output and it does not alter machine in any way other than hang from the expansion port...
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: GUNHED on 15:57, 26 July 17
Wow! Lots of posts in such a small time. Honestly after reading all posts here I don't understand everything. But it looks like a great project. Let me ask though if this card will be only available for symbos users or will it be sold to everybody? Wouldn't it be nice to speed up other OS too like the BASIC-OS and CP/M? If this card is so well then it should be able to support fast writing of text on screen too - I guess.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 16:15, 26 July 17
Wow! Lots of posts in such a small time. Honestly after reading all posts here I don't understand everything. But it looks like a great project. Let me ask though if this card will be only available for symbos users or will it be sold to everybody? Wouldn't it be nice to speed up other OS too like the BASIC-OS and CP/M? If this card is so well then it should be able to support fast writing of text on screen too - I guess.
It doesnt require Symbos. The reason its mentioned here alongside symbos is because Edo is part of our little symbos team and making the software that already runs on the msx2 in higher rez and more colours run on a cpc seemed a logical next step.


Lots of hardware seems to exist with no software to show it off... so the 1st benefit of symbos is that software already exists atleast in GUI mode. We intend to take this as I've said far further creating a cross platform game OS. But no symbos isn't a requirement
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Ast on 16:38, 26 July 17
+1 for me when it will be ready!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Scarlettkitten on 16:48, 26 July 17
Surely any new hardware being produced is good for the cpc scene, I don't understand all the downers.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Bryce on 16:56, 26 July 17
Wow! Lots of posts in such a small time. Honestly after reading all posts here I don't understand everything. But it looks like a great project. Let me ask though if this card will be only available for symbos users or will it be sold to everybody? Wouldn't it be nice to speed up other OS too like the BASIC-OS and CP/M? If this card is so well then it should be able to support fast writing of text on screen too - I guess.

Maybe FutureOS will support the card too?

Bryce.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: villain on 20:57, 26 July 17
Maybe FutureOS will support the card too?

Bryce.


I'm not sure if users from the States ever heard of Future-OS.  8)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 10:49, 27 July 17
Maybe FutureOS will support the card too?

Bryce.
And that ladies and gentlemen is how you end a discussion!  :)  But yeah I'm sure lots of people will want to support this via something other than symbos. The more the merrier
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: GUNHED on 14:42, 27 July 17
Lots of hardware seems to exist with no software to show it off... so the 1st benefit of symbos is that software already exists atleast in GUI mode. We intend to take this as I've said far further creating a cross platform game OS. But no symbos isn't a requirement


Thanks for your information. Yes, this is a great example how cross-platform development can be beneficial.  :)  IMHO the MSX scene is bigger than the CPC scene, so good for CPC users.  :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 09:57, 04 August 17
Tecnobytes published a video showing the CPC with the V9990 graphic card in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFtcGITspwk

I think this little demo is already absolutely amazing and shows some of the potential of this powerful hardware expansion.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 10:29, 04 August 17
Haha. Yep nobody is going to want this.... Better get started on this software then :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: HAL 6128 on 10:57, 04 August 17
Tecnobytes published a video showing the CPC with the V9990 graphic card in action:
I think this little demo is already absolutely amazing and shows some of the potential of this powerful hardware expansion.
Amazing, indeed. Do you know by chance how much (or less) degree of capacity utilization the CPC / Z80 is in action now for this demonstation? If've seen a M4 Card from Duke and a X-Mem. Does the developer also get a PlayCity Card (just in case there are now interferring problems)?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 11:24, 04 August 17
Amazing, indeed. Do you know by chance how much (or less) degree of capacity utilization the CPC / Z80 is in action now for this demonstation? If've seen a M4 Card from Duke and a X-Mem. Does the developer also get a PlayCity Card (just in case there are now interferring problems)?
At a guess not much Z80 in use. The black screen would have been uploading graphics from z80 into the VRAM. After that it would be Key Input, and a few instructions to set new sprite data for animation and setting the scroll offset.
Cool example though this is it's not pushing the z80 more than a few %. This is all v9990 doing its thing.
I dont know about the Play city interferrence issue... Technobytes hasn't got that card as far as I know, and he's only had a CPC a month or two. people in Brazil have never heard of Amstrad :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Duke on 11:31, 04 August 17
Looks absolutely amazing :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: ASiC on 11:32, 04 August 17
Tecnobytes published a video showing the CPC with the V9990 graphic card in action:


I think this little demo is already absolutely amazing and shows some of the potential of this powerful hardware expansion.


(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/8H9y7iZeBqg/hqdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: HAL 6128 on 11:59, 04 August 17
I dont know about the Play city interferrence issue...
Oh, there's no concrete problem. Just asking. Maybe some want's to create Mega-CPC or -Game with that graphical extension, M4 and the PlayCity. (Would make sense) :)

Technobytes hasn't got that card as far as I know, and he's only had a CPC a month or two. people in Brazil have never heard of Amstrad :)
What? Our famous CPC? So at least 40 years later it conquered South Amercia :).
(I think SyX who is studying or studied in Brazil has one over there :))
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: zhulien on 12:40, 04 August 17
I want 6 of them for my m4's...
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: robcfg on 13:41, 04 August 17
Impressive!


That's really a true graphics accelerator, offloading graphics work out of the cpu will allow much more complex and richer games.


Great job!


I would like one too.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 15:36, 04 August 17
Amazing, indeed. Do you know by chance how much (or less) degree of capacity utilization the CPC / Z80 is in action now for this demonstation? If've seen a M4 Card from Duke and a X-Mem. Does the developer also get a PlayCity Card (just in case there are now interferring problems)?
As Trebmint already mentioned there is no real Z80 CPU usage for this demo at all. It's running in Pattern screen mode, you see the two possible (transparent) layers. The robot and the logos are hardware sprites, the Z80 is just updating a few pointers in each frame, not much more.

We decided to use the ports #FD60-#FD6F for the V9990 CPC Powergraph, I already made an entry here:
http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/I/O_Port_Summary#I.2FO_Port_Summary
I hope it won't collide with other existing hardware?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 20:45, 04 August 17

Tecnobytes published a video showing the CPC with the V9990 graphic card in action:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFtcGITspwk[/youtube]

I think this little demo is already absolutely amazing and shows some of the potential of this powerful hardware expansion.






wow! This is so cool! I love to watch that movie!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: ||C|-|E|| on 22:21, 04 August 17
There are many things to love about that card! I will definitely be getting some when they are available  :)  Having VGA output (I see a VGA port, right?) is super awesome too!  :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: villain on 23:28, 04 August 17
After more than 30 years we get real brown on CPC now? Whooohoooo.  :o
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Maniac on 10:13, 05 August 17
Stunning stuff! Certainly an interesting development!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 17:19, 05 August 17
I got an email from Ritcho/Tecnobytes yesterday and would like to share some parts of it here with the CPC community :)

Quote from: Tecnobytes
About the Z80 % use.. you (and Trebmint) are 100% correct.
[...]so I did start the DEMO 3 day ago...). The CPC was in Tecnobytes LAB with Oazem, so I developed all DEMO for MSX and yesterday, Rogerio (our third member) brought the CPC to my home, and I finally had tested in the CPC. In fact, I just change the Keyboard routine! Nothing more. I made change on the Gfx9KLib, and all functions are the same for CPC and MSX (I didn't update all lib yet... just the used routines). Just the original hardware code was changed... AH! I also changed the start entry point of the program... nothing more! So its easy to make a (same) game for MSX and CPC with V9990 :-) (maybe Zx Spectrun :-O)

He is using the Gfx9KLib written by MSD from the dutch "Team Bomba", which was published some years ago:
https://www.teambomba.net/gfx9klib.html
It contains the complete function set for controlling and using the V9990 video hardware.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: DaDMaN on 10:32, 08 August 17
@Edoz(MSX) (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1188)
Absolutely great addon for our beloved Amstrad CPC! One for me, please  :D
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 23:42, 11 August 17
Great news!
Tecnobytes finished the V9990 CPC Powergraph! Pre-Sale has been started, it can be ordered now!
You can find all information here:

http://www.tecnobytes.com.br/p/v9990-powergraph_10.html (http://www.tecnobytes.com.br/p/v9990-powergraph_10.html)

The SymbOS CPC V9990 "Powergraph" low level screen driver has been prepared and will be fully tested soon. I am quite excited about it! :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Morri on 23:52, 11 August 17
All paid for.
Page says they only need to sell 30 units to make it viable, cmon guys, we can do it!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: roudoudou on 00:31, 12 August 17
the purpose of this extension is "only" to enhance SymbOS ?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: ||C|-|E|| on 00:41, 12 August 17
I bought my unit too! I am always glad to support new hardware!  :D (and software  :-\ )
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 01:17, 12 August 17
the purpose of this extension is "only" to enhance SymbOS ?
No it doesn't require symbos. Any coder can write software for it. Symbos is just a piece of software that will be available that uses its functionality
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: zhulien on 02:26, 12 August 17
is it an mx4 card?


Someone should port Curry demo and Nyan cat to V9990 on CPC...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7plLeXpbakg[/youtube]
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: rpalmer on 03:54, 12 August 17
The only issue I can see for the card is that apart from RGB, it can connect to a 15KHz VGA monitor which in today's market is difficult to come by as most VGA monitors and backwards compatible LCD/LED monitors may not always support such a low scan line refresh rate. VGA monitors are normally and most frequently support a minimum of 31KHz.

This I know (in Oz at least) is that my Amiga 1200 needs such support and there were very very few monitors which support the 15KHz mode. Thankfully I got a BenQ model which is lucky as they were in short supply and appear to be an end of model supporting such frequencies. Most (if not all) LCDs/LEDs are aiming for much higher frequencies as the graphics support is now at 1080p, 4K or even higher resolutions.

Also the website needs a bit more spell checking... like what is "Dual Port Sam"????

rpalmer
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: zhulien on 04:06, 12 August 17
I bought my cards...  it won't be too long before someone creates a set of RSXs for it so BASIC can take full advantage of it.  and also even as a RAMDISC (perhaps?) - so i will get another 512kb RAM...

Interestingly they make an ethernet card for msx too, I wonder if Symbos will support that?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: SapphiRe on 14:52, 12 August 17
There are some MSX+V9990 published games:

Green Gravity Guy:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5BtZbRDT-U[/youtube]

Codename: INTRUDER
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnn8FwMhAyE[/youtube]

Both use Z80 + PSG music (and optional SCC music) and require just 8kb of RAM (games comes on ROM format). Also INTRUDER uses dual screen, showing some info through the internal VDP of MSX. Port those games to CPC + V9990 should be relatively easy.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 17:51, 12 August 17
The only issue I can see for the card is that apart from RGB, it can connect to a 15KHz VGA monitor which in today's market is difficult to come by as most VGA monitors and backwards compatible LCD/LED monitors may not always support such a low scan line refresh rate.
I am using a SCART cable, and this works fine with my modern LCD flatscreen. For resolutions up to 768x212 the quality is fine here, just with 1024x212 the picture is a little bit muddy I would say (and then the ratio is crap anyway :) ).
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: ivarf on 21:55, 12 August 17


This is what Sega did with the Sega Megadrive and failed. It was the start of the end of Sega. >:(














 :P




on the other hand, SymbOS gives it the multiplatform PC advantage. Thumbsup
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: ||C|-|E|| on 23:19, 12 August 17
Besides, I deeply enjoyed my 32X and my Mega CD  :D
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: rpalmer on 00:13, 13 August 17
I am using a SCART cable, and this works fine with my modern LCD flatscreen. For resolutions up to 768x212 the quality is fine here, just with 1024x212 the picture is a little bit muddy I would say (and then the ratio is crap anyway :) ).

In Oz the SCART connector was not adopted as much as in the EU, which is a pity. I only ever once saw a TV with SCART connector (and was a very cheap model from Asia) and never say a LCD/LED computer monitor with one.

rpalmer
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: zhulien on 04:41, 13 August 17
If you are in melbourne i can give you an lcd tv with scart... and wall mounting bracket
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 13:46, 15 August 17
Very nice! I was on holidays, but i placed my order as well!


Great news!
Tecnobytes finished the V9990 CPC Powergraph! Pre-Sale has been started, it can be ordered now!
You can find all information here:

http://www.tecnobytes.com.br/p/v9990-powergraph_10.html (http://www.tecnobytes.com.br/p/v9990-powergraph_10.html)

The SymbOS CPC V9990 "Powergraph" low level screen driver has been prepared and will be fully tested soon. I am quite excited about it! :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: hsimpson on 14:40, 15 August 17
Well that, I'm following this thread. I also paid for preorder :) .
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: XeNoMoRPH on 17:02, 15 August 17
I would like to see some new complete game in CPC with this V9990 CPC Powergraph  :o
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: ASiC on 17:49, 15 August 17
Do we have an end date for the pre-order?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 19:17, 15 August 17
Do we have an end date for the pre-order?

I think techobytes will wait some time to reach the 30 units. But i was reading on their website http://www.tecnobytes.com.br/ (http://www.tecnobytes.com.br/) that we are over the 20 now! That is good news! I can't wait to make some software for this unit!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 19:24, 15 August 17
I heard, that they nearly reached the 25 now :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Scarlettkitten on 20:43, 15 August 17
I heard, that they nearly reached the 25 now :)




Great, I've ordered mine too :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Kris on 20:57, 15 August 17



Great, I've ordered mine too :)


Me too :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Gryzor on 15:24, 16 August 17
Crap, they started putting all packages from outside the EU through customs lately, and god knows how much they'd charge me if I ordered one :(
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: MaV on 17:26, 16 August 17
I ordered one as well.

@Gryzor (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1): Try to get in contact with the customs bureau. There are some guidelines for EU countries but every country has its own rules.
In Austria you pay VAT if it hasn't been paid already (so ideally the package should contain a declaration) for items from non-EU countries and up to 150 Euros, but our post charges 10 Euros for delivery (and you can't evade that!) Above 150 Euros, we pay customs which is quite a bit more, but I haven't had the "pleasure" yet.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Gryzor on 18:10, 16 August 17
Yeah... indeed, there's a €10-15 flat surcharge plus VAT (that already raises the price to €127 plus shipment), but the problem is that way too many (chinese, especially) exporters do false value declarations, so customs just charge whatever they seem appropriate. Sooo... yes, they may see something like GFX and look it up and come across a GeForce model and consider it god knows what. You can file for reexamination, and this will cost you another €10-15 just for the privilege, but nothing guarantees the rate will change in your favor :(
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Joseman on 11:18, 17 August 17
Hi

Just ordered mine  :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: MaV on 11:50, 17 August 17
Sooo... yes, they may see something like GFX and look it up and come across a GeForce model and consider it god knows what. You can file for reexamination, and this will cost you another €10-15 just for the privilege, but nothing guarantees the rate will change in your favor :(
That's the main problem. I hope I can explain them what this item exactly is without them making false assumptions. We'll see.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 15:54, 17 August 17
Hard to believe, that the guy from the custom thinks, that this is an actual hardcore Gamer Geforce GFX card:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5Z2GF0pD5YQ/WWqaPKSgJLI/AAAAAAAAFoQ/9I1vsZmC7HA5iLZak2BZCns8m7_JA3DswCLcBGAs/s1600/Pic01.jpg)

Looks more like a 10 Euro article  :D
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: MaV on 00:47, 18 August 17
Hard to believe, that the guy from the custom thinks, that this is an actual hardcore Gamer Geforce GFX card:

Looks more like a 10 Euro article  :D
The Geforce card was mentioned as a ridiculous example of what might happen. Let's review Gryzor's comment:
Quote from: Gryzor
Sooo... yes, they may see something like GFX and look it up and come across a GeForce model and consider it god knows what.
Clearly, this is about the customs offices generally estimating too high, especially when they never saw anything comparable.
One true story: remember bonefish from the Revision parties? ;) He told me how he got a ZX80 in pristine condition cheaply on eBay but then had troubles at customs because they checked a ZX80 a couple of weeks before him that looked grimy and worn down and the accompanying bill priced it at close to 200 Euros. In their opinion, one ZX80 in pristine condition surely must be more expensive then (and who can blame them for thinking that). It took quite a bit of time to clarify things and he eventually succeeded. But you can never be sure it'll turn out in your favour.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the GFX9990. :) Hopefully you'll bring yours to the XZentriX, if you already have one?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Bryce on 10:32, 18 August 17
In Germany you have to bring the receipts/Paypal confirmation and any documentation relating to the sale, otherwise they start estimating.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Gryzor on 15:02, 18 August 17
Supposedly you can do that here too, if you go to the customs office which is -of course- a lengthy and expensive procedure. But of course that's stupid too - you can either forge the (Paypal) receipt or, heck, pay the thing in two installments and show one of them :D
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 17:18, 18 August 17
Supposedly you can do that here too, if you go to the customs office which is -of course- a lengthy and expensive procedure. But of course that's stupid too - you can either forge the (Paypal) receipt or, heck, pay the thing in two installments and show one of them :D


Prodatron has got some extra ordered so will have a few for sale I believe. So you'll be able to get some from within the EU rather than Brazil. Problem is we need to get to the production quantity first. Think we're only a few off now.


Bit of a catch 22. We cant commit to games for the card until we know they'll happen, but it takes shiny new games to make people want them.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: CraigsBar on 18:49, 18 August 17
I want one.... And now I have an msx2 the card may get double usage doubling the usefulness.

Although my retro budget this month is long gone.... Msx2, ghost cartridge etc etc....

Sent from my ONEPLUS 3t using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: ivarf on 23:12, 18 August 17

Hard to believe, that the guy from the custom thinks, that this is an actual hardcore Gamer Geforce GFX card:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5Z2GF0pD5YQ/WWqaPKSgJLI/AAAAAAAAFoQ/9I1vsZmC7HA5iLZak2BZCns8m7_JA3DswCLcBGAs/s1600/Pic01.jpg)

Looks more like a 10 Euro article  :D


A clue should be the 1991 copyright on the Yamaha chip
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: rpalmer on 03:05, 19 August 17

Bit of a catch 22. We cant commit to games for the card until we know they'll happen, but it takes shiny new games to make people want them.

Its not really a catch-22.
Its all about confidence to build a fixed number of them (taking on the burden of the initial costs) to sell and test to see if people are prepared to buy it. It also helps to convert some MSX software to the cpc to showcase what the item can do.
If they don't then you know this type of hardware has limited scope in which case it should be built on request after the initial builds are sold.
If you run out of builds to sell then order double the number of bits that go into making it and then again see if the piece of kit sells like "hot cakes", in which case repeat again.

rpalmer
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Munchausen on 11:25, 19 August 17
I want one but I can't order until I get paid at the end of the month
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Poliander on 12:04, 19 August 17
Will the final product also consist of a MX4 adapter and a separate board containing the video chip?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: ASiC on 16:57, 20 August 17
I want one but I can't order until I get paid at the end of the month


Same here  :(

Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: CraigsBar on 00:59, 23 August 17
Will the final product also consist of a MX4 adapter and a separate board containing the video chip?
I hope so. That will help me as it will work on 2 systems!

Sent from my ONEPLUS 3t using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 01:31, 23 August 17
The MSX version doesn't need a convertor card, so unless a CPC specific version is made, the CPC expansion will be more expensive.
No, the CPC version has the same price as the MSX version (around 90$).
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 01:38, 23 August 17
I hope so. That will help me as it will work on 2 systems!
No, it's not like this, IIRC they never talked about an adapter (or did they ever talked about an ultimate one? - not sure)
Connecting MSX hardware to a CPC via an adapter sounds fine but is quite difficult and seems to stay a dream actually. The V9990 is connected in a native way to the Z80 bus of the CPC. If anyone can do a real adapter for I/O based MSX devices (like G9K, MP3, etc) please please do it! :) In this case I really wonder, why NOONE has done this before?!?!  :o :o
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: SapphiRe on 10:59, 23 August 17
If anyone can do a real adapter for I/O based MSX devices (like G9K, MP3, etc) please please do it! :) In this case I really wonder, why NOONE has done this before?!?!  :o :o

I sent them an email some days ago asking this same question. But it seems the email address they have is not working. An adapter will be really awesome!!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: tjohnson on 10:23, 27 August 17
So what's the latest on this?   Have they started shipping or was the pre order to get the investment to start the production?

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 21:27, 12 September 17
According to Technobytes webpage we're going to be getting a new Video Card. The 30 minimum was passed and they are making more for the future too. So we better start thinking about getting some development started :)
left!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: GUNHED on 19:08, 13 September 17
Well, for this it would be needed to have some documentation... Where to get it?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: pelrun on 19:33, 13 September 17

From earlier in this thread:


The V9990 io ports are mapped to the CPC at &FD60-&FD6F. http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/I/O_Port_Summary#I.2FO_Port_Summary


Then you just use all the existing V9990 documentation for the MSX, for instance: http://msxbanzai.tni.nl/v9990/manual.html

Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: GUNHED on 23:53, 14 September 17
Great! Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 19:59, 01 October 17
Today i was reading this update regarding the v9990.. looks so cool!

http://www.tecnobytes.com.br/2017/09/cpc-v9990-powergraph-first-unit-out-of.html?m=1 (http://www.tecnobytes.com.br/2017/09/cpc-v9990-powergraph-first-unit-out-of.html?m=1)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: msmthng on 11:36, 02 October 17
Is there already a preorder list existing for this?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 12:24, 02 October 17
Is there already a preorder list existing for this?

You can already (pre) order the V9990 CPC Powergraph device already on the technobytes site:

http://www.tecnobytes.com.br/p/v9990-powergraph_10.html (http://www.tecnobytes.com.br/p/v9990-powergraph_10.html)

If you have any questions best is to contact them.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: zhulien on 17:10, 02 October 17
looking at the programming docs, it seems it may actually be possible to use it as a 512kb RAMDisc... not as fast ask a memory mapped DkTronics one, but likely faster than a floppy drive for sure...
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 23:15, 02 October 17
Yes, there are CPU to memory and memory to CPU commands. So you could implement a 512KB ram disc, but it would a strange use case for the V9990 gfx card :D
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: ASiC on 23:07, 03 October 17
Do we know if the final design will use the superimpose feature of the VDP in order to have one screen for both outputs?


In case it doesn't, does anybody know how hard might be (if possible at all) to do an aftermarket modification to the card?


Cheers
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: pelrun on 05:01, 04 October 17
The superimpose feature of the V9990 is simply that it can generate an extra transparency signal in sync with the video output to tell "some other hardware" which video input to take the current pixel from. All the hard work would actually be done by the extra hardware (a genlock, etc etc) which would cost a lot more to integrate onto this board.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Poliander on 09:07, 04 October 17
Do we know if the final design will use the superimpose feature of the VDP in order to have one screen for both outputs?

That would be great, but it would require to digitalize the CPC video signal and put into memory first... the effort to achieve this is pretty high
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: msmthng on 21:45, 16 October 17
Today i got the feedback from Tecnobytes Brazil that there are 6 units left.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 22:21, 16 October 17
And today I heard, that the first units will be shipped soon! :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: HAL 6128 on 23:03, 16 October 17
How will SymbOS support that graphical extension (in terms of enhancements)?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 23:32, 16 October 17
That's quite simple to describe:
You will have a 16 colour display of 384x240, 512x212, 768x240 or 1024x212 pixels with your CPC  :D
And you can still run all your SymbOS apps from your beloved 3" floppy disc (or M4Board SD card, X-MASS, SYMBiFACE II or whatever).
It's just "another" graphic card for an expandable machine (in this case based on a Z80 ;) ) and a graphical user interface, which is able to support any amount of resolutions and different colour depths without the need to modify existing application (they will always run due to the platform independency).
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Bryce on 23:37, 16 October 17
That's pretty cool. Are they being produced yet (the hardware) and what does the setup cost?

Bryce.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: khaz on 23:43, 16 October 17
I thought there was no need for a CPC-specific card with the new MSX adapter?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Munchausen on 10:59, 17 October 17
@Prodatron (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=13) Any chance of dual head output? i.e. dual monitors in symbos!?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 18:29, 25 October 17
@Prodatron (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=13) Any chance of dual head output? i.e. dual monitors in symbos!?
It would be possible to have one SymShell running on the normal CPC monitor, while the GUI is still active on the GFX9000 display. Could be quite interesting and special.
During the last 2 days I made some progress with the G9K-Version of SymbOS CPC and will probably post some pictures or videos later.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Bryce on 22:46, 25 October 17
And when will the Youtube client be finished? :D

Bryce.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 03:52, 27 October 17
First video showing SymbOS running on the Amstrad CPC with AMSDAP + original MSX Graphics9000 hardware connected:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plQf9_7zPSA
It's f*ing cool really, and beside some minor bugs it's fully working now :)

A nice idea and proof of concept, but as long as it's external it will never get even close to being useful.
;)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: keith56 on 06:08, 27 October 17
This looks great!
I'm looking to do some MSX dev with the V9990 - and maybe later on the CPC too - so this is very interesting!
Is the AmsDAP going to be sold by the same makers as the MSX V9990? is the Amsdap going to be cheaper than the CPC-V9990 on its own - or is it better to take the plunge and buy the CPC one!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: HAL 6128 on 08:53, 27 October 17
Yes! It's really f****ing cool! Looking torward to!!!
Hopefully Trebmints Quigs will support / include the new feature too.

The CPC monitor Output is black. Is it disabled for the moment?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: roudoudou on 09:19, 27 October 17
First video showing SymbOS running on the Amstrad CPC with AMSDAP + original MSX Graphics9000 hardware connected:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plQf9_7zPSA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plQf9_7zPSA)
It's f*ing cool really, and beside some minor bugs it's fully working now :)
 ;)


For the video player, is it possible to avoid slow refresh by copying the video frames elsewhere in the video memory, then blit it to the final window?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Bryce on 09:54, 27 October 17
@Prodatron (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=13): Yes, I take that back and eat my words. Very impressive.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 11:11, 27 October 17
First video showing SymbOS running on the Amstrad CPC with AMSDAP + original MSX Graphics9000 hardware connected:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plQf9_7zPSA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plQf9_7zPSA)
It's f*ing cool really, and beside some minor bugs it's fully working now :)
 ;)


hahah !! this is so cool to see! Now we have this nice color SymbOS as well on the CPC!!!!!  :P :P :P :P :P
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 11:52, 27 October 17
Yes! It's really f****ing cool! Looking torward to!!!
Hopefully Trebmints Quigs will support / include the new feature too.

The CPC monitor Output is black. Is it disabled for the moment?
Yes quigs will. I took a week to re-implement the video with mp3, so I've been a little delayed, but we're getting near to a release
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Gryzor on 12:45, 27 October 17
This is way too cool!


I was just watching the video full-screen, and my boss passed by my desk, he didn't notice I was actually watching a video :D
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: GUNHED on 15:27, 27 October 17
This is way too cool!


So very true! And isn't it wonderful to have supporting software before the official release of the card. I wished other expansion cards would have the same software support. That Powergraph is probably the #1 greatest expansion for 2017.  :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: XeNoMoRPH on 09:26, 31 October 17
Impressive colors  :-X :-X
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: villain on 12:44, 31 October 17
This evening I will burn my Amiga!  8)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Patrick on 12:54, 31 October 17
This evening I will burn my Amiga!  8)


No, no... send it to me  ;) !
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Gryzor on 13:04, 31 October 17
Why, you can burn it better? :p
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Patrick on 13:21, 31 October 17
Why, you can burn it better? :p
I will do my best  :laugh:
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Munchausen on 22:31, 01 November 17
I ordered a board!


But is it me, or is the frame rate for call on me lower than normal on a CPC with symbos?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 23:31, 01 November 17
16 colour bitmaps require the double amount of data compared to a 4 colour bitmap of the same size.
The blitter inside the V9990 is doing a lot of things to speed up the graphic output. But it can't help so much when just pumping bitmap data from CPU memory to the screen. A video with the same resolution will have about half the framerate in 16 colours compared to 4 colours.
So video output is not the best example for demonstrating the power of the GFX9000 (=CPC Powergraph).

I am planning to record another video of SymbOS CPC with the V9990 driver soon, which is mainly for demonstrating some benchmarks and features.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Munchausen on 12:11, 02 November 17
How big are the videos? Is it possible to buffer the whole thing into video RAM at file load time if they fit ? I guess this will require a graphics hardware specific player...
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Munchausen on 12:13, 02 November 17
Also, I wonder if overclocking becomes more feasible when using the v9990. You're no longer going to be using floppy drive, crtc etc so it won't matter that they don't behave as expected.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: LambdaMikel on 19:18, 21 November 17
Does anybody know about the status of the orders from http://www.tecnobytes.com.br/ (http://www.tecnobytes.com.br/) ?
I remember in JUly or August or so I had put my name on the list of > 20 buyers required or
so, and I had also paid 140 $ or so.
 
Did people get their graphics cards? I tried to contact the person behind this but never got
any reply. CAn somebody shoot me a PM please on how to contact the person behind this?
I am not sure I even traced it back to the right Paypal / Credit Card transaction. It was such
a long time ago, that I have forgotten about the details. 
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: LambdaMikel on 19:23, 21 November 17
PS The name i got from my credit card transaction was Ricardo O.....em .... does that sound right?
Price paid was 131.75 $. Did anybody hear back after having paid the money, or are the cards still
in production? I tried a couple of times to contact him via his website, never got any reply. So I am
a bit concerned that my $ went out of the window....
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 20:01, 21 November 17
Atleast two people I know that ordered have had the card arrive last week, so I don't think you need to worry.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: LambdaMikel on 20:11, 21 November 17
Atleast two people I know that ordered have had the card arrive last week, so I don't think you need to worry.
 


That sound good... I am just concerned that I never got any reply to any of my emails from him...
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Munchausen on 20:20, 21 November 17
I also didn't receive anything yet but I'm probably at the end of the list!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: LambdaMikel on 20:50, 21 November 17
I also didn't receive anything yet but I'm probably at the end of the list!



But did you get an order confirmation or something like that?
I didn't - for sure he got the money though.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Munchausen on 22:03, 21 November 17
No I got nothing, I just filled out the form on the website and checked out with PayPal. So.. fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: msmthng on 23:00, 21 November 17
I got answers on questions, also information that first cards allready sent out. I am looking forward to get one.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: LambdaMikel on 23:58, 21 November 17
To those that already got their cards - when did you order? My order was middle of August.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: LambdaMikel on 23:59, 21 November 17
I got answers on questions, also information that first cards allready sent out. I am looking forward to get one.



Do you mind sharing his email address with me? PM? That would be awesome. His website contact form is a black hole to me.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: hsimpson on 00:31, 22 November 17
My order was middle of August, too. I'm still waiting for the card.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: pelrun on 07:52, 22 November 17
At this point there's literally no benefit in talking about who has cards and who hasn't. *Especially* in comparison to when the *pre-orders* happened. Hardware production is a nasty business, and takes time to do right. And international shipping makes everything worse. It looks like they've *only just* started shipping cards, so be patient.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: LambdaMikel on 09:46, 22 November 17
At this point there's literally no benefit in talking about who has cards and who hasn't. *Especially* in comparison to when the *pre-orders* happened. Hardware production is a nasty business, and takes time to do right. And international shipping makes everything worse. It looks like they've *only just* started shipping cards, so be patient.

Just to clarify - the point was not so much to talk about who got and who hasn't gotten a card yet, but more trying to establish some communication channel with the person in charge. My main concern was that I was unable to establish communication. I got the email address of the person in charge by now and will try over this channel, thanks btw!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Munchausen on 19:18, 22 November 17
Double post, sorry
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Poliander on 19:28, 22 November 17
My order was middle of August, too. I'm still waiting for the card.

I'm waiting for more than 2 years for a Albireo. Easy peasy
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: LambdaMikel on 20:12, 22 November 17
I got an email from Tecnobytes today and everything is fine.
The next batch of cards will be ready in a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: msmthng on 20:37, 22 November 17


Hi Martin, how are you?


We already sent the first 20 units. The next batch will be ready to dispatch in few days.




Thank you for your patience.


Kind regards,






Tecnobytes Brasil
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: msmthng on 21:05, 22 November 17
I have ordered on 2nd of october and i am 41 on the list.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: radu14m on 21:30, 22 November 17
i want one too !
where can be ordered ? :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Munchausen on 23:27, 22 November 17
i want one too !
where can be ordered ? :)


http://www.tecnobytes.com.br/p/v9990-powergraph_10.html
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 15:08, 28 November 17
I already received my order. So it just take some time. :D :D :D 

But first i need to have a proper cable. There is a VGA connector on it, but only supporting (very old) VGA monitors (as it is a low resolution, so i need a VGA to SCART connector first to test it! so i can hook it up to a normal SCART monitor :D Those VGA monitors are hard to get that supports this. ;)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Skunkfish on 18:56, 28 November 17
Can a scan doubler be used to support a wider range of monitors?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Poliander on 09:09, 29 November 17
It could be possible to use an OSSC for both RGB and VGA and output from the CPC and give VGA the higher priority. So only a single DVI/HDMI monitor is required for both outputs. But someone will have to test.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: khaz on 18:05, 29 November 17
A cool thing to do, for the next revision, is to have a video input on the board. Like the SEGA 32X or Voodoo cards, the video ouput of the CPC goes to the input of the card, and the output of the card goes to the display. That way only one screen is needed to display both output, and switching from one to the other is invisible and seamless.

You lose dual screen (if that was possible in the first place) but you gain... Superposition! Have parts of the screen drawn by the CPC, parts drawn by the board. The CPC could draw an extra layer of background, or manage parts of the interface, or whatever people can think of.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: pelrun on 18:39, 29 November 17
That's been asked before, go read earlier in the thread. It requires adding a *lot* of extra hardware - a full digitiser and frame buffer to genlock the second video signal. Just because the V9990 "supports superposition" doesn't mean it actually does *any* of the hard work itself. All it does is provide a 1-bit alpha mask signal on an output pin.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: khaz on 19:02, 29 November 17
Fair enough. But the single output for both video chips would still be useful, to switch from one to the other easily.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: pelrun on 03:44, 30 January 18
My card just arrived! Annoyingly I don't have any room to set up my 6128 right now, guess I need to clean up...
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: zhulien on 09:41, 31 January 18
My cards arrived!  Oddly, the warrantee is 90 days from the purchase date... which was well over 3 months ago :D

Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Bryce on 09:59, 31 January 18
My cards arrived!  Oddly, the warrantee is 90 days from the purchase date... which was well over 3 months ago :D

Legally the purchase was only completed when you received the device, not when you ordered or paid. So your warranty still has 89 days left.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: tjohnson on 11:04, 31 January 18
Warranty is probably a bit gray when selling into a country from abroad, i think UK and EU consumer law would apply even if the seller puts 90 days when selling goods into the UK.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Bryce on 11:38, 31 January 18
The valid warranty is always the one from the country of the buyer, not the seller as far as I know.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Gryzor on 14:18, 31 January 18
This is always true. Goods in any country have to satisfy the laws of that country, and that goes for warranties too.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: zhulien on 17:41, 31 January 18
the important thing, is the cards arrived so... I am happy to say to anyone still waiting, i am sure they will arrive soon.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: tjohnson on 21:39, 31 January 18

the important thing, is the cards arrived so... I am happy to say to anyone still waiting, i am sure they will arrive soon.


Has anyone got anything to demo on one of these cards?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Kris on 21:55, 31 January 18
Mine arrived today, difficult to find a monitor accepting the resolution....I will need a VGA to scart to use it  :doh:
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: msmthng on 22:36, 31 January 18
Is there already a symbos released supporting the card? I got shipping Information today.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: GUNHED on 02:21, 01 February 18
Mine arrived today, difficult to find a monitor accepting the resolution....I will need a VGA to scart to use it  :doh:

Well, it would be neat to have a list of monitors which run well.

How can I know it a monitor works? Does the card send some kind of signal or picture?
(I should have asked PDT last weekend, but one weekend it not enough ;-))


EDIT: Mine arrived too (just the day when I went to the Mittwinter Meeting)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Skunkfish on 13:39, 01 February 18
Is it producing a 15kHz RGB signal through VGA?

If so, there's a list of monitors here that support that: http://15khz.wikidot.com/ (http://15khz.wikidot.com/)

These ones are easy to find: https://www.amazon.co.uk/BenQ-BL912-Monitor-Response-Resolution/dp/B00DZG2IWE/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
 
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Bryce on 13:47, 01 February 18
The V9900 chip can produce a 31.5kHz signal, but only at 640x480, all other resolutions used 15.7kHz.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Singaja on 14:06, 03 February 18
Would this work with original CTM644 or does require a vga monitor?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: bitvision on 10:20, 04 February 18
Hi guys!
I just received my CPC-V9990 Powergraph and I didn't take into account I need a way to connect it to my CPC6128. I think I need an MX4 o a simple belt for that ... Do you know where I can buy any of those? Any online shop or anybody selling those?
Thanks!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: tjohnson on 11:03, 04 February 18
Hi guys!
I just received my CPC-V9990 Powergraph and I didn't take into account I need a way to connect it to my CPC6128. I think I need an MX4 o a simple belt for that ... Do you know where I can buy any of those? Any online shop or anybody selling those?
Thanks!
Is that a picture of the card!?  Looks very neat.  does it contect to the expansion slot edge connector?

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: robcfg on 11:52, 04 February 18
Hi guys!
I just received my CPC-V9990 Powergraph and I didn't take into account I need a way to connect it to my CPC6128. I think I need an MX4 o a simple belt for that ... Do you know where I can buy any of those? Any online shop or anybody selling those?
Thanks!


Ask @TotO (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=290) for an MX4 or the cable you need.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: bitvision on 01:54, 05 February 18
@tjohnson (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2129) yes it does , but I need a MX5 or a proper cable to do it.
@robcfg (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4) thanks for the info. I just sent him a pm.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 12:28, 05 February 18
Good to see, that the cards are arriving! :) I am using a...
BenQ BL702A 43 cm (17 Zoll) LED-Monitor (5:4 SXGA, LED, VGA, 5ms)
(bought it here: https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00DZFOVZW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00DZFOVZW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) )

It can be connected to the CPC Powergraph directly via a usual VGA cable. The only issue currently is, that it is first switching the colour sheme to YUV, and you have to go to the menu of the monitor and switch to RGB. I hope this can be fixed (maybe there is a "save settings"...).

Here is a video showing the Robot demo on my CPC+Powergraph+BenQ monitor (recorded on the MSX meeting in Nijmegen the day before yesterday):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16GFIp7LJR4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16GFIp7LJR4)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Joseman on 18:42, 05 February 18
Hi

mine is here too!!  8)

Now i need AMSDAP and the msx-mp3 player!!!

Symbos looks lovely with the card!


(http://i65.tinypic.com/2luul3l.jpg)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Scarlettkitten on 20:53, 05 February 18
Mines arrived too, thank you :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Bryce on 09:55, 06 February 18
They look very well made and the soldering is perfect. I wonder why he didn't go for SMD resistors and capacitors? It would have made things easier and cheaper for him.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: VincentGR on 12:49, 06 February 18
They look very well made and the soldering is perfect. I wonder why he didn't go for SMD resistors and capacitors? It would have made things easier and cheaper for him.

Bryce.


Heeeeeyy, older technology is better  ;D
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Bryce on 13:24, 06 February 18
Not if better = cost and time to solder up a device.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: ||C|-|E|| on 15:11, 09 February 18
I will have to go to London tomorrow to collect mine, but I think it will be worth it  :D I agree that SMD components have advantages, although I must admit that I like the board a lot as it is now. It matches with the computer really well!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: ||C|-|E|| on 14:01, 10 February 18
So yes, I collected mine today! It certainly looks nice, although soldering in my board is a bit sloppy at least in three points. Nothing critical though, and very easy to "fix". It would certainly work the same without reflowing these spots. It is more cosmetic than anything else  :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: LambdaMikel on 19:44, 12 February 18
Got mine too  :D  PCB and soldering looks great... really good.
Have to figure out how to test it.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 12:19, 13 February 18
I used this BenQ BL702A monitor as well, however this monitor works the picture quality is not that good. So, if someone else have a better result let us know. Maybe there is a better monitor to use.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 19:52, 27 February 18
I have some good news. Today i soldered myself a cable between the V9990 and the monitor, so from VGA -> to SCART.
It seems to work perfect on my display (Old Philips CRT Monitor, CM8833)

I will post the pin layout here later!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Munchausen on 12:46, 28 February 18
Is the symbos version compatible with the GFX9000 available yet (my card also arrived - a few weeks ago)?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: msmthng on 17:02, 05 March 18
How can i test the card/monitor? Should there something apear on the monitor if i turn both on or is there only output to the card if i run specific programms?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 17:46, 05 March 18
I know that Prodatron is currently working on a new build for SymbOS which supports the v9990. But that one is not released at the moment. We have to wait for that.

Currently the only software which works is the ROBO demo from Technobytes.

I am not that familiar with the CPC but i do the following to start the demo.
(Please be aware that after each run command the CPC reboots to basic again)

I user the M4 to mount the DISK file which is attached in the ZIP file:

I do it like |CD,"robot.dsk"

Code: [Select]

RUN "Clear"

RUN "A1"
RUN "A2"
RUN "A3"

RUN "B1"
RUN "B2"
RUN "B3"

RUN "C1"
RUN "C2"
RUN "C3"

RUN "ROBO"

Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 17:46, 05 March 18
Attachment:
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: msmthng on 18:14, 05 March 18
black monitor (BenQ V2400 Eco, should be also 15kHz able) :-(
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 20:42, 05 March 18
I only tested it on the BenQ BL702A monitor (which seems to have a bit poor quality)
But on my old Philips CM8833 i have perfect picture by using a VGA to SCART cable.

So your monitor is connected using a VGA connector? And did you run every .BAS file separately, so waiting until it return to the basic prompt?
I think, your monitor is not supporting it correctly. Do you have an old monitor like i have? (CM8833)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 20:44, 05 March 18
Does your monitor support 15k over RGB? (As i notice that i have to set my Philips CM8833 to RGB)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: msmthng on 21:02, 05 March 18
Does your monitor support 15k over RGB? (As i notice that i have to set my Philips CM8833 to RGB)
based on this list it should support 15k over RGB.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: msmthng on 21:04, 05 March 18
I only tested it on the BenQ BL702A monitor (which seems to have a bit poor quality)
But on my old Philips CM8833 i have perfect picture by using a VGA to SCART cable.

So your monitor is connected using a VGA connector? And did you run every .BAS file separately, so waiting until it return to the basic prompt?
I think, your monitor is not supporting it correctly. Do you have an old monitor like i have? (CM8833)

yes each bas executed seperately. waited for the new basic prompt after each script.
on run"robo the cpc monitor stays blue and nothing happening on the benQ.



Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 21:10, 05 March 18
At this point, i really can advise to use it in combination with the Philips CM8833, using a VGA to SCART  connector. It gives the best picture quality. That reminds me that i have to post the PIN of the VGA to SCART cable still over here.

About the BenQ monitor. The monitor i have has to set to RGB mode first before i can use it. (In the settings/control panel of the monitor) Maybe on your monitor you have to do the same?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 21:28, 05 March 18
(http://www.msx.pics/images/2018/03/05/2018-03-05_20-25-48.png)


My modern "television" is also not support the 15 khz over RGB. But here you see a picture of the CM8833. I hope you can solve it by setting your monitor to RGB in the control panel of your monitor like i have to do on my BenQ.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: msmthng on 09:57, 06 March 18
I will try one additional thing today, maybe there is to less power for the V9990 on the MotherX4 (i will add power supply to the Board)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 11:47, 06 March 18
Okay good! I use a power supply as well for the MotherX4.  Did you try to change the monitor to RGB in the menu of the monitor of the BenQ?
I have to say that it is not easy to get a monitor that supports it. (Old=Better) It tooks me also some time.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: msmthng on 11:50, 03 April 18
It could be possible to use an OSSC for both RGB and VGA and output from the CPC and give VGA the higher priority. So only a single DVI/HDMI monitor is required for both outputs. But someone will have to test.


Iam using this setup now. It is working for me.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Poliander on 19:56, 03 April 18
Iam using this setup now. It is working for me.

Very nice! I've read that this should be possible in the OSSC forums (but not for CPC of course, there was a similar use case for another platform I don't remember)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: GUNHED on 04:08, 04 April 18
Is there any kind of demo program for the GFX card available to be able to check its function?

Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: keith56 on 03:29, 07 April 18
Are there any CPC emulator developers planning V9990 emulation?

I'm considering a port of ChibiAkumas V9990 from the MSX2 to the CPC (CPC ver is one of my patreon 'goals'), but with no emulators to test on it would a real pain to do.

I'd be willing to make a 100 euro donation to any emulator author who got V9990 emulation working - it would save me that much in personal suffering compared to testing on real hardware!!!

Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: arnoldemu on 12:01, 08 April 18
is the robot demo for the cpc powergraph available to download?

EDIT: I found the dsk on the previous page. Thanks @Edoz(MSX) (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1188)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: arnoldemu on 12:32, 08 April 18
Is the powergraph interrupt connected to cpc interrupts?
EDIT: Is the powergraph reset connected to cpc reset and is it reset at power on?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: radu14m on 22:03, 28 June 18
is there any game available for the card ?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: number-one on 11:48, 23 August 18

Msmthng I have also a m4 board and OSSC


do you run robo file without these lines before ?


Quote
RUN "Clear"


RUN "A1"
RUN "A2"
RUN "A3"


RUN "B1"
RUN "B2"
RUN "B3"


RUN "C1"
RUN "C2"
RUN "C3"


RUN "ROBO"




I have a color problem with the image (pink)
see attachment
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 13:30, 23 August 18
I have the same. You have to set your monitor to RGB in the monitor menu.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: number-one on 18:53, 23 August 18
I have an Open Source Scan Converter (https://www.videogameperfection.com/products/open-source-converter/) like msmthng (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/using-symbos-with-the-gfx9000-(msx-grapics-card)/msg158602/#msg158602) with hdmi output on Philips BDM3470UP Monitor


I set sRGB Color on my monitor and the image is again pink.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: HAL 6128 on 19:12, 23 August 18
This behavior also happens if the VRAM of the the card is not cleared before loading Sprite, background and Color table. Normallly the „clear.bas“ should do this. Could you download the file robo file again?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: number-one on 19:41, 23 August 18
HAL 6128, where is the link to download the right file ?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: arnoldemu on 15:47, 24 September 18

I have been working on powergraph emulation. It is in early stages.
I don't have a powergraph so I have been working from the manual.


Does anyone here have a CPC with powergraph that would run some tests on it and give me back a dsk with the results on?


Thank you.

Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: HAL 6128 on 21:39, 24 September 18
HAL 6128, where is the link to download the right file ?
Upps, sorry missed the answer. There should be a link in the beginning of the thread. That's what I have.

@arnoldemu (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=122): I have a powergraph and can do some test.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 23:45, 24 September 18
I have been working on powergraph emulation. It is in early stages.
I don't have a powergraph so I have been working from the manual.


Does anyone here have a CPC with powergraph that would run some tests on it and give me back a dsk with the results on?


Thank you.
This is great news... I'm all for vdp9990 development within symbos
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: GUNHED on 15:06, 25 September 18
Does anyone here have a CPC with powergraph that would run some tests on it and give me back a dsk with the results on?


In principle yes, but I couldn't find a monitor working with it up to now. So probably I need a monitor first.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: keith56 on 15:59, 25 September 18

In principle yes, but I couldn't find a monitor working with it up to now. So probably I need a monitor first.

I use one of these boxes with my MSX V9990 - it converts the signal of the V9k, and then I can use my standard non compatible monitor... you just plug the v9k into the front vga port, and the back vga port into any old monitor and it works fine

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Andoer%C2%AEHigh-Portable-Genuine-GBS8200-Converter-Green/dp/B00W3460UU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1537880270&sr=8-3&keywords=vga+cga

unfortunately I do not have the CPC version, so cannot do the testing.

I'm hoping ArnoldEmu is able to finish his emulator, as I want to cover the CPC V9K in my programming tutorials, and support it with the MSX one in future games.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: HAL 6128 on 22:37, 25 September 18
@GUNHED (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2029) : I bought an LG Flatron M1921A from "Ebay Kleinanzeigen" in Germany for about 10 €. It works fine with the powergraph. Just plug it via VGA cable.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: keith56 on 14:18, 27 September 18
I have been working on powergraph emulation. It is in early stages.
I don't have a powergraph so I have been working from the manual.
Does anyone here have a CPC with powergraph that would run some tests on it and give me back a dsk with the results on?

I'm bumping this thread in the hope someone tests ArnoldEmu's code!... if no one tests the code there will be no emulation of the CPC-V9k... and no-one will write any games for it - so could someone who own's the hardware please try it for Arnoldemu?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: GUNHED on 15:20, 27 September 18

Why don't you test it?  :)

As told... I can test it. But I need it first to test.  ;)  Attach an DSK and I will run any test.  :)
Furthermore I can not see anything on VDP screen (which probably doesn't matter).
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: keith56 on 16:00, 27 September 18
Why don't you test it?  :)

As told... I can test it. But I need it first to test.  ;)  Attach an DSK and I will run any test.  :)
Furthermore I can not see anything on VDP screen (which probably doesn't matter).

I don't have the CPC-V9k, I only have the MSX one... recently, I was hoping to buy the AmsDAP converter, but it seems it's not for sale... I'm sorry, but I wasn't willing to spend $100 on the CPC-V9K and then spend more of my time developing for it... once it's emulated - maybe I'll do some development, but I do not enjoy fixing bugs on real hardware - it's stressful and I don't want to do it.

I understand you can't test it because you don't have the monitor, but don't a couple of dozen people have the card? with no amstrad games to play on it - I'd have expected them to jump at the chance to help finish the emulator, and make life easier for developers of CPC-V9K games
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: villain on 17:13, 27 September 18
HAL 6128 mentioned a few days ago that he could do the tests...
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: HAL 6128 on 18:48, 27 September 18
Sure I can do this. Also Keith can do this with his MSX Version if he using an AMSDAP board which translates the addressing (OUT #FF60 > #60). The AMSDAP works with different MSX hardware expansions unless no memory mapping is necessary. The powergraph only needs INs and OUTs to work. But Programming itself an good programmer and lot of Time is needed.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: GUNHED on 03:36, 28 September 18
Contact Prodatron for the AMSDAP. About testing just send me something and I will return an updated DSK (where results are save too).  :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: arnoldemu on 15:14, 02 October 18

Sorry I didn't respond earlier.


@Prodatron (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=13) contacted me and offered to send me a board for testing. :) I was waiting for it to arrive. It has not come yet.


In the meantime, @HAL 6128 (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=365) I will contact you by PM tonight. Thank you.


I don't need the board to be connected to a display for my first set of tests.


I did think of making an MSX version of the tests so @keith56 (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1886) could run them but because HAL 6128 has offered I will take up that offer :)







Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: keith56 on 16:13, 02 October 18
Great news! I'm looking forward to seeing a CPC emulator support the V9K... it'll be a real help for would-be developers of the thing... and may bring a few MSX devs over to the CPC as well!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: GUNHED on 16:35, 02 October 18
I don't need the board to be connected to a display for my first set of tests.


So, post a DSK and I will run it.  :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: arnoldemu on 23:07, 03 October 18
A huge thank you to @Prodatron (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=13) . The Powergraph arrived yesterday and I started my tests today.Thank you for the surprise in the package! :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: keith56 on 02:06, 04 October 18
A huge thank you to @Prodatron (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=13) . The Powergraph arrived yesterday and I started my tests today.Thank you for the surprise in the package! :)

Wow! Great news! Thanks to Prodatron and arnoldemu for their efforts in bringing V9K support to CPC emulation!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Prodatron on 02:11, 04 October 18
Thank you for the surprise in the package! :)
You are welcome! :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: HAL 6128 on 09:11, 04 October 18
Very cool, indeed!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: arnoldemu on 11:26, 09 October 18

Progress report:


Most of this is register and port access, making sure it does exactly as it should on a real device so you can be confident that your code to access the registers, ports and data is correct.
I have also updated the cpcwiki with my findings.


- access to the palette registers is done. (all the auto increment, setting ternery to 3, bit masks etc).
- access to the ports, auto-increment port read/write, which ports are write only, which are read only and the specific data returned when you read.
- access to the registers,auto-increment with read/write, which registers are write only, which are read only, which bits are used.
- read/write access to vram through port 0
- most of the v9990 state after reset (registers reset to 0 etc).


To do:
- what happens during reset (where you use the control register to reset it). What is readable? What is writeable? What values are seen? When is reset done on writing '1' or '0'?
- all the commands (I have place holder code, but now I need to do more detailed analysis of exactly what happens when different bit depths and modes and x,y are chosen).
- actually display something. (will do after the commands)


With a real device it made this much easier :)

Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: keith56 on 11:55, 09 October 18
excellent news! I'm looking forward to seeing the result!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 19:33, 09 October 18
Great stuff Kev. Can't wait to make this the default emulator for quigs and the gfx9000 game editor.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: arnoldemu on 22:45, 17 October 18
Another update:
- logical vram -> physical vram mapping is working (both in vram access via port and point command).
- point command is working in 2bpp, 4bpp, 8bpp and 16bpp modes.
I hope that a lot of the pixel reading/writing is shared inside the silicon so this work is good for the other commands too.
byte->byte move and pset command will be next.

Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: GUNHED on 17:22, 23 October 18
@GUNHED (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2029) : I bought an LG Flatron M1921A from "Ebay Kleinanzeigen" in Germany for about 10 €. It works fine with the powergraph. Just plug it via VGA cable.


Well, now I bought the exact same monitor, but it doesn't work! Is there some trick to it?

Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: HAL 6128 on 22:40, 23 October 18
Hi TFM,how did you connect the powergraph to the monitor (VGA cable?)Switch the monitor to RGB-DTV.How did you start the robot files (which order)?
I had some issues with the right order of loading the files:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fTSRjllt58&t=44s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fTSRjllt58&t=44s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZrFERWFkrU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZrFERWFkrU)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz2Woi8HBpY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz2Woi8HBpY)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: GUNHED on 17:14, 24 October 18
Hi TFM,how did you connect the powergraph to the monitor (VGA cable?)Switch the monitor to RGB-DTV.How did you start the robot files (which order)?

Well, I used a VGA cable (to the 15 pin connector), this does not work for the GFX9000. But it does work if I connect may Laptop instead. Also the SCART works with the CPC6128 being connected.

The Robo files I did start in the order it was suggested, of course it suxx to have the need to start 11 times before one is able to check the card being working. It would be nice to have one files which just displays a screen (different border and paper for example), just something simple. So, I don't know if my card is broken of the monitor has a problem with it.
BTW: The monitor allows to switch input between TV, AV1, AV2 and RGB. I get not signal whichever I use.
First I thought I need a special cable, but the same cable runs with the Laptop, but not with the GFX9000. Got no idea what to do. Guess I try again next week.  :(


EDIT: Ok, seems to be enough to run ROBO to see something going on on the VGA screen at least. Good to know!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 22:03, 17 March 19

Hey I just thought I'd add a link to a video I just uploaded of work in progress on the Powergraph - v9990 game engine thats being built into Quig/Symbos. For those of you who don't know Quigs is an IDE/Compiler which has been used to develop many apps (By Edo) for Symbos. However now is the time to use the power of symbos for g9k games.
Currently I'm half way through my Powergraph v9990 Mode P1 level mapping editor, so its going to get a lot nicer than you see in the video hopefully. Eventually will be fully integrated into the compiler/game engine. Sorry for the poor quality, but any questions of suggestions let me know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tilc4AEgOew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tilc4AEgOew)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: ||C|-|E|| on 22:45, 17 March 19
It actually looks pretty awesome already!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: XeNoMoRPH on 08:25, 18 March 19
Hey I just thought I'd add a link to a video I just uploaded of work in progress on the Powergraph - v9990 game engine thats being built into Quig/Symbos. For those of you who don't know Quigs is an IDE/Compiler which has been used to develop many apps (By Edo) for Symbos. However now is the time to use the power of symbos for g9k games.
Currently I'm half way through my Powergraph v9990 Mode P1 level mapping editor, so its going to get a lot nicer than you see in the video hopefully. Eventually will be fully integrated into the compiler/game engine. Sorry for the poor quality, but any questions of suggestions let me know.

Will this be for amstrad or msx?
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 10:49, 18 March 19
Will this be for amstrad or msx?
The same game will run on both CPC and MSX (Possibly even Enterprise) as long as you have a v9990 attached. This is the same as any Symbos App, except it will be full screen v9990 if you have the hardware. And because it runs on  Symbos you have the additional benefits of being able to support large media, networking, mouse etc etc.


The idea has been that as Symbos supported hardware that Quigs did too in its language. With the Powergraph I now have the ability to make a Unity/AGD like games tool for the rapid development of game apps. Does anyone remember the film Field of Dreams... "Build it and they will (developers) come!"
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: TotO on 11:15, 18 March 19
Nice to see interrests for doing advanced things for SymbOS, because that deserve at the same time the MSX, CPC, Enterprise users. (and PCW when a V9990 will come)
May be some others Z80 computers like PC-98 will use this OS next if some good games come true... The V9990 finally have a real interrest afer 25 years, by unifying them!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: GUNHED on 19:08, 18 March 19
Last weekend I saw the Quigs and how to work with it. Actually, it's quite impressive and seems to be very efficient too. I couldn't understand everything he did, because the letters are so small (laptop), but it seems to be fully fledged now. Great tool!
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 22:03, 18 March 19
Last weekend I saw the Quigs and how to work with it. Actually, it's quite impressive and seems to be very efficient too. I couldn't understand everything he did, because the letters are so small (laptop), but it seems to be fully fledged now. Great tool!
Thanks GUNHED. Nice you noticed that its efficient. I've put a lot of effort into the language and getting the compiled code as fast and tight as possible. Obviously you can never get close to hand coded Z80 even with C. But like you I'm determined to cut those cycles down to the minimum possible. We're going to need quick if the games are going to be any good.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: GUNHED on 23:12, 18 March 19
Ah, C is fine :-) The nice guys from the Netherlands showed how incredible it is and to "make" a screen with boxes and all that features only takes second. I'm sure also the generated programs are fine. However in very few occasions one can include Z80 code (I guess). If the result is 3% slower than pure machine code, who cares?  ;)  Pure awesomeness!  :)
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 00:39, 19 March 19
Ah, C is fine :-) The nice guys from the Netherlands showed how incredible it is and to "make" a screen with boxes and all that features only takes second. I'm sure also the generated programs are fine. However in very few occasions one can include Z80 code (I guess). If the result is 3% slower than pure machine code, who cares?  ;)  Pure awesomeness!  :)
Its probably a lot more than 3% though  :( . I think its the structure of high level language against the way a good z80 coder codes and juggles registers. The differences for more modern processors favour this style, but the z80 with its limited register set means I will never get close to the 'to the metal' code most experienced z80 guys would. The code does have a certain elegance to it though.


For instance a command such as this
   Button1.Text.RSet Str(a+32)+Mid("Hello",a-1,a+10)
Converts too:

   LD HL,Button1
   PUSH HL                             ;/x99
   LD HL,(Button1_Text)
   PUSH HL                             ;/x99
   LD DE,(var_wrd_a)                   ;/DE = Var 'var_wrd_a'
   LD HL,32.0                          ;/0tr
   ADD HL,DE                           ;/Add HL & DE Values
   CALL Quig_Str_Str                   ;/ Call Function
   PUSH HL                             ;/x1
   LD HL,(var_wrd_a)
   DEC HL                              ;/Minus 1
   PUSH HL                             ;/x2
   LD DE,(var_wrd_a)                   ;/DE = Var 'var_wrd_a'
   LD HL,10.0                          ;/0tr
   ADD HL,DE                           ;/Add HL & DE Values
   POP DE                              ;/x1
   LD BC,directstr_1                   ;/0
   PUSH BC
   CALL Quig_Mid                       ;/ Call Function
   POP DE                              ;/x1
   CALL Quig_Str_Add                   ;/Compare strings equals HL=DE
   POP DE                              ;/x1
   CALL Quig_LetString_Refresh         ;/CALL 'Button1.Text.RSet'


After the 1.0 release I do hope to go back and code a pre-compile where it checks the assembler listing for a more efficient version and swaps it out... but that is probably a way off
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: HAL 6128 on 14:49, 19 March 19
Could you provide somekind of manual or a small overview for Quigs, especially for the language you can use ( that VB style one )? It would be great to have somekind of "start of the day" or somekind of orientation.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: Trebmint on 18:14, 19 March 19
I will try to get some tutorial videos up over next week or so. And hopefully release a GUI only/Not G9K version at the end of the month.
Title: Re: Using SymbOS with the GFX9000 (MSX grapics card)
Post by: GUNHED on 19:43, 26 December 20
Sadly my GFX9000 still doesn't work with all the monitors I got here. Can somebody suggest a working monitor please?