Dear CPC community, I am following this community now for a while, because my interest in SymbOS. My main and beloved home computer is a MSX computer and not a CPC but I found out since Prodatron ported SymbOS to the MSX that the CPC and MSX share the same CPU and are both super cool 8-bit machines. Last week I talked with a MSX hardware developer (From technobytes, builder of a lot cool hardware for MSX) and we discussed the CPC for a while. On the MSX we have a lot of hardware expansions, some are IO based, like the GFX9000 (Which is a video chip/card) and we think we could make an adapter for it so that you can hookup the GFX9000 to your CPC. On the MSX we have slots, and on the CPC you have this extension port which share the same idea. Extending hardware. We think, we could make an adapter so that you good hookup I/O based MSX hardware to it. Maybe, it would be cool to make this. The GFX9000 (V9990) is already supported by SymbOS, so probably that will work on the CPC as well. Question is if there is any interest for this kind of adapter in the CPC community? If so, we could maybe invest time to make something like this. With this adapter, you could hookup the GFX9000 on the CPC giving you new resolutions and screens. In SymbOS you could enjoy 16 colors, but the hardware supports even more. The V9990 was build for the MSX3 but was never used because the MSX3 was never released at that time.
It certainly sounds a novel idea, and I'd be interested in getting one if it became available.
I assume its ram would bank in like the regular CPC memory and CPC plus Asic registers?
As it has 512k video ram could unused video ram be used as standard memory?
Sounds very cool. How easy it is to actually get a hold of a GFX9000 card, though?
That is a good question!
Maybe some of the MSX guys can cast some light on this issue!?
/Ygdrazil
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I'm not quite understanding how to program for this,
Are we looking at a device which will only be used via Out (C),X commands?
if that's the case, won't it be very slow? I mean, it won't matter for graphics and the like, but for games that would be difficult.
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Update on this:
It took some time to get a good working CPC with all the needed devices for testing.
Currently I'm preparing the package with all the equipment, and to send to brazil, so they have the machine for testing.
Let's see if it will work out! So we will have this voodoo card ;)
This looks an interesting concept, the way I've read this is it effectively a self contained computer with the interface allowing instructions to be downloaded from an external machine like the CPC to the add-on. Does anything actually run on the Amstrad once the code download is done?
My understanding is that it off loads the video processing to the video chip (drawing, scrolling, sprites etc) but the z80 is the main man behind telling it where to/from scroll, draw etc.
Also gameplay logic is still done one the z80
It is a SNES case here with the Z80 trying to catch up things but hey, this is the best news I've ever heard for my cpc.
Oh, an interesting project. So this is an external GFX card for the CPC? What are the advantages? Isn't it quite slow to send all GFX data to the card via OUT commands instead to write into V-RAM?From my limited MSX2 coding...
A nice idea and proof of concept, but as long as it's external it will never get even close to being useful. An internal solution that reads the same RAM as the 6845 is the only way it's going to be fast enough for gaming.The VDP9990 is a dedicated graphic card which supports both bitmap and pattern mode (2 layers + sprites; paralax scrolling), games implemented with it will be much faster at a higher resolution and more colours. But that was already discussed and described in this thread some pages ago. Writing bitmap data from the CPU into the VRAM of the graphic card can be done at about the same speed, you define a rectangle and then just OUT all bytes to its port without the need to do a "next line" after x bytes. OUTI:INC B is 1 nop slower than LDI, but you don't have the "next line" thing. But escpecial in games you will hardly copy bitmap data to the VRAM anyway during the normal gameplay, as you have 512KB of dedicated video ram. Moving/copying stuff inside the 9990 video ram is unbelieveable fast and doesn't require any relevant Z80 time anyway.
A nice idea and proof of concept, but as long as it's external it will never get even close to being useful. An internal solution that reads the same RAM as the 6845 is the only way it's going to be fast enough for gaming.
The VDP9990 is a dedicated graphic card which supports both bitmap and pattern mode (2 layers + sprites; paralax scrolling), games implemented with it will be much faster at a higher resolution and more colours. But that was already discussed and described in this thread some pages ago. Writing bitmap data from the CPU into the VRAM of the graphic card can be done at about the same speed, you define a rectangle and then just OUT all bytes to its port without the need to do a "next line" after x bytes. OUTI:INC B is 1 nop slower than LDI, but you don't have the "next line" thing. But escpecial in games you will hardly copy bitmap data to the VRAM anyway during the normal gameplay, as you have 512KB of dedicated video ram. Moving/copying stuff inside the 9990 video ram is unbelieveable fast and doesn't require any relevant Z80 time anyway.
After the port to the CPC you can run SymbOS on it. Like in this movie:
Now, to be fair, that's running on the turbo-R!! - isn't it's performance the equivalent of 10X a conventional Z80?
Is there any possibility of this thing being converted for the ZX spectrum? Heck those guys need a video upgrade more than the CPC owners!!
Oh and the Spectrum crowd are getting the Spectrum Next which offers a similar upgrade in graphics to this.The MSX, Spectrum 128 and CPC all have the same sound chip, if the 9990 GPU was available on the spectrum as well one could port the same game to all three systems without too many changes - I'm aware that the spectrum Next offers crazy upgrades - but it's a FPGA, not discrete hardware, and I'm afraid that doesn't count in my book!
The MSX, Spectrum 128 and CPC all have the same sound chip, if the 9990 GPU was available on the spectrum as well one could port the same game to all three systems without too many changes - I'm aware that the spectrum Next offers crazy upgrades - but it's a FPGA, not discrete hardware, and I'm afraid that doesn't count in my book!Well as part of the symbos team I'm really only thinking along the lines of hardware that can support symbos and the Spectrum doesn't. If somebody clever enough wants to take this idea that's now been proven on the cpc and convert it to the spectrum - well they'd probably get a lot of orders for it.
While the MSX graphics card be (and appears to have been) ported to the CPC in a hardware sense, the issue performance is a different issue to consider. I could easily interface a standard PC VGA card to the CPC and get it to work. The obvious issue is now how much performance I gain from such a device connected to the CPC. In both cases i would speculate the both would be slower than what has been we can expected from the native CPC designs.
To put this example into perspective, the MSX system probably does not slow down the Z80/R800 CPU to get video data. This leaves the MSX the ability to use a DMA which can transfer large amounts of data far more quickly than with simple software solutions. The Z80 DMA will have been most likely included into the MSX design which can send data from memory to a single port and this makes the whole issue of video data transfers far easier and certainly far quicker. There is also the possibility to transfer data from media to the graphics card direct.
rpalmer
I could easily interface a standard PC VGA card to the CPC and get it to work.A standard VGA card doesn't have a blitter, pattern mode and hardware sprites.
The Z80 DMA will have been most likely includedThere is no need for DMA regarding transfering data from the Z80 memory to the video memory during gameplay. Pre-filled 512KB of video RAM usually is more than enough.
The thing is, you're thinking on using the GFX9000 the same way you usually do things on the CPC.
The win here is that you upload the heavy graphics data to the GFX9000 and then you only have to issue commands like "put that sprite here" or "copy that tile there" instead of copying the sprite or tile data.
So, no need for DMA and no slowdowns or bottlenecks once you uploaded your data to the GFX9000.
I trust Kevin 8)
Such a card would be fun but the cost of 90$ (for MSX version) may be too expensive for a massive spread.
Now, to be fair, that's running on the turbo-R!! - isn't it's performance the equivalent of 10X a conventional Z80?
Is there any possibility of this thing being converted for the ZX spectrum? Heck those guys need a video upgrade more than the CPC owners!!
I suspect the feedback from the Speccy scene would be along the lines of: If all you're doing is using the Z80 to drive an MSX graphics chip, in what way is this a Speccy? Certainly this was raised the argument raised against a whole bunch of suggested graphical improvements, prior to ULA+, which inherently just removed the Speccy-ness in the pursuit of adding better graphics. It is an argument I'd tend to follow along with. If I wanted to write for the MSX, why wouldn't I just target an MSX?
personally I'm not sure why people have to make these comments unless you want it to fail
3. Development will be made as easy and fast as possible using Quigs which will contain a compiler, mapping tools, animator (Think halfway between AGD and Unity)...is Quigs or Unity still under development?
...is Quigs or Unity still under development?Yes, that's what I'm doing
6. Existing games will not run with it without changes. This is a big problem when they have dedicated routines to make most efficient use of the existing native design. I am assuming the source is available which for the most is not.
Wow! Lots of posts in such a small time. Honestly after reading all posts here I don't understand everything. But it looks like a great project. Let me ask though if this card will be only available for symbos users or will it be sold to everybody? Wouldn't it be nice to speed up other OS too like the BASIC-OS and CP/M? If this card is so well then it should be able to support fast writing of text on screen too - I guess.It doesnt require Symbos. The reason its mentioned here alongside symbos is because Edo is part of our little symbos team and making the software that already runs on the msx2 in higher rez and more colours run on a cpc seemed a logical next step.
Wow! Lots of posts in such a small time. Honestly after reading all posts here I don't understand everything. But it looks like a great project. Let me ask though if this card will be only available for symbos users or will it be sold to everybody? Wouldn't it be nice to speed up other OS too like the BASIC-OS and CP/M? If this card is so well then it should be able to support fast writing of text on screen too - I guess.
Maybe FutureOS will support the card too?
Bryce.
Maybe FutureOS will support the card too?And that ladies and gentlemen is how you end a discussion! :) But yeah I'm sure lots of people will want to support this via something other than symbos. The more the merrier
Bryce.
Lots of hardware seems to exist with no software to show it off... so the 1st benefit of symbos is that software already exists atleast in GUI mode. We intend to take this as I've said far further creating a cross platform game OS. But no symbos isn't a requirement
Tecnobytes published a video showing the CPC with the V9990 graphic card in action:Amazing, indeed. Do you know by chance how much (or less) degree of capacity utilization the CPC / Z80 is in action now for this demonstation? If've seen a M4 Card from Duke and a X-Mem. Does the developer also get a PlayCity Card (just in case there are now interferring problems)?
I think this little demo is already absolutely amazing and shows some of the potential of this powerful hardware expansion.
Amazing, indeed. Do you know by chance how much (or less) degree of capacity utilization the CPC / Z80 is in action now for this demonstation? If've seen a M4 Card from Duke and a X-Mem. Does the developer also get a PlayCity Card (just in case there are now interferring problems)?At a guess not much Z80 in use. The black screen would have been uploading graphics from z80 into the VRAM. After that it would be Key Input, and a few instructions to set new sprite data for animation and setting the scroll offset.
Tecnobytes published a video showing the CPC with the V9990 graphic card in action:
I think this little demo is already absolutely amazing and shows some of the potential of this powerful hardware expansion.
I dont know about the Play city interferrence issue...Oh, there's no concrete problem. Just asking. Maybe some want's to create Mega-CPC or -Game with that graphical extension, M4 and the PlayCity. (Would make sense) :)
Technobytes hasn't got that card as far as I know, and he's only had a CPC a month or two. people in Brazil have never heard of Amstrad :)What? Our famous CPC? So at least 40 years later it conquered South Amercia :).
Amazing, indeed. Do you know by chance how much (or less) degree of capacity utilization the CPC / Z80 is in action now for this demonstation? If've seen a M4 Card from Duke and a X-Mem. Does the developer also get a PlayCity Card (just in case there are now interferring problems)?As Trebmint already mentioned there is no real Z80 CPU usage for this demo at all. It's running in Pattern screen mode, you see the two possible (transparent) layers. The robot and the logos are hardware sprites, the Z80 is just updating a few pointers in each frame, not much more.
Tecnobytes published a video showing the CPC with the V9990 graphic card in action:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFtcGITspwk[/youtube]
I think this little demo is already absolutely amazing and shows some of the potential of this powerful hardware expansion.
About the Z80 % use.. you (and Trebmint) are 100% correct.
[...]so I did start the DEMO 3 day ago...). The CPC was in Tecnobytes LAB with Oazem, so I developed all DEMO for MSX and yesterday, Rogerio (our third member) brought the CPC to my home, and I finally had tested in the CPC. In fact, I just change the Keyboard routine! Nothing more. I made change on the Gfx9KLib, and all functions are the same for CPC and MSX (I didn't update all lib yet... just the used routines). Just the original hardware code was changed... AH! I also changed the start entry point of the program... nothing more! So its easy to make a (same) game for MSX and CPC with V9990 :-) (maybe Zx Spectrun :-O)
the purpose of this extension is "only" to enhance SymbOS ?No it doesn't require symbos. Any coder can write software for it. Symbos is just a piece of software that will be available that uses its functionality
The only issue I can see for the card is that apart from RGB, it can connect to a 15KHz VGA monitor which in today's market is difficult to come by as most VGA monitors and backwards compatible LCD/LED monitors may not always support such a low scan line refresh rate.I am using a SCART cable, and this works fine with my modern LCD flatscreen. For resolutions up to 768x212 the quality is fine here, just with 1024x212 the picture is a little bit muddy I would say (and then the ratio is crap anyway :) ).
I am using a SCART cable, and this works fine with my modern LCD flatscreen. For resolutions up to 768x212 the quality is fine here, just with 1024x212 the picture is a little bit muddy I would say (and then the ratio is crap anyway :) ).
Great news!
Tecnobytes finished the V9990 CPC Powergraph! Pre-Sale has been started, it can be ordered now!
You can find all information here:
http://www.tecnobytes.com.br/p/v9990-powergraph_10.html (http://www.tecnobytes.com.br/p/v9990-powergraph_10.html)
The SymbOS CPC V9990 "Powergraph" low level screen driver has been prepared and will be fully tested soon. I am quite excited about it! :)
Do we have an end date for the pre-order?
I heard, that they nearly reached the 25 now :)
Great, I've ordered mine too :)
Sooo... yes, they may see something like GFX and look it up and come across a GeForce model and consider it god knows what. You can file for reexamination, and this will cost you another €10-15 just for the privilege, but nothing guarantees the rate will change in your favor :(That's the main problem. I hope I can explain them what this item exactly is without them making false assumptions. We'll see.
Hard to believe, that the guy from the custom thinks, that this is an actual hardcore Gamer Geforce GFX card:The Geforce card was mentioned as a ridiculous example of what might happen. Let's review Gryzor's comment:
Looks more like a 10 Euro article :D
Sooo... yes, they may see something like GFX and look it up and come across a GeForce model and consider it god knows what.Clearly, this is about the customs offices generally estimating too high, especially when they never saw anything comparable.
Supposedly you can do that here too, if you go to the customs office which is -of course- a lengthy and expensive procedure. But of course that's stupid too - you can either forge the (Paypal) receipt or, heck, pay the thing in two installments and show one of them :D
Hard to believe, that the guy from the custom thinks, that this is an actual hardcore Gamer Geforce GFX card:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5Z2GF0pD5YQ/WWqaPKSgJLI/AAAAAAAAFoQ/9I1vsZmC7HA5iLZak2BZCns8m7_JA3DswCLcBGAs/s1600/Pic01.jpg)
Looks more like a 10 Euro article :D
Bit of a catch 22. We cant commit to games for the card until we know they'll happen, but it takes shiny new games to make people want them.
I want one but I can't order until I get paid at the end of the month
Will the final product also consist of a MX4 adapter and a separate board containing the video chip?I hope so. That will help me as it will work on 2 systems!
The MSX version doesn't need a convertor card, so unless a CPC specific version is made, the CPC expansion will be more expensive.No, the CPC version has the same price as the MSX version (around 90$).
I hope so. That will help me as it will work on 2 systems!No, it's not like this, IIRC they never talked about an adapter (or did they ever talked about an ultimate one? - not sure)
If anyone can do a real adapter for I/O based MSX devices (like G9K, MP3, etc) please please do it! :) In this case I really wonder, why NOONE has done this before?!?! :o :o
Is there already a preorder list existing for this?
Do we know if the final design will use the superimpose feature of the VDP in order to have one screen for both outputs?
@Prodatron (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=13) Any chance of dual head output? i.e. dual monitors in symbos!?It would be possible to have one SymShell running on the normal CPC monitor, while the GUI is still active on the GFX9000 display. Could be quite interesting and special.
A nice idea and proof of concept, but as long as it's external it will never get even close to being useful.;)
First video showing SymbOS running on the Amstrad CPC with AMSDAP + original MSX Graphics9000 hardware connected:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plQf9_7zPSA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plQf9_7zPSA)
It's f*ing cool really, and beside some minor bugs it's fully working now :)
;)
First video showing SymbOS running on the Amstrad CPC with AMSDAP + original MSX Graphics9000 hardware connected:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plQf9_7zPSA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plQf9_7zPSA)
It's f*ing cool really, and beside some minor bugs it's fully working now :)
;)
Yes! It's really f****ing cool! Looking torward to!!!Yes quigs will. I took a week to re-implement the video with mp3, so I've been a little delayed, but we're getting near to a release
Hopefully Trebmints Quigs will support / include the new feature too.
The CPC monitor Output is black. Is it disabled for the moment?
This is way too cool!
This evening I will burn my Amiga! 8)
Why, you can burn it better? :pI will do my best :laugh:
Atleast two people I know that ordered have had the card arrive last week, so I don't think you need to worry.
I also didn't receive anything yet but I'm probably at the end of the list!
I got answers on questions, also information that first cards allready sent out. I am looking forward to get one.
At this point there's literally no benefit in talking about who has cards and who hasn't. *Especially* in comparison to when the *pre-orders* happened. Hardware production is a nasty business, and takes time to do right. And international shipping makes everything worse. It looks like they've *only just* started shipping cards, so be patient.
My order was middle of August, too. I'm still waiting for the card.
i want one too !
where can be ordered ? :)
My cards arrived! Oddly, the warrantee is 90 days from the purchase date... which was well over 3 months ago :D
the important thing, is the cards arrived so... I am happy to say to anyone still waiting, i am sure they will arrive soon.
Mine arrived today, difficult to find a monitor accepting the resolution....I will need a VGA to scart to use it :doh:
Hi guys!Is that a picture of the card!? Looks very neat. does it contect to the expansion slot edge connector?
I just received my CPC-V9990 Powergraph and I didn't take into account I need a way to connect it to my CPC6128. I think I need an MX4 o a simple belt for that ... Do you know where I can buy any of those? Any online shop or anybody selling those?
Thanks!
Hi guys!
I just received my CPC-V9990 Powergraph and I didn't take into account I need a way to connect it to my CPC6128. I think I need an MX4 o a simple belt for that ... Do you know where I can buy any of those? Any online shop or anybody selling those?
Thanks!
They look very well made and the soldering is perfect. I wonder why he didn't go for SMD resistors and capacitors? It would have made things easier and cheaper for him.
Bryce.
RUN "Clear"
RUN "A1"
RUN "A2"
RUN "A3"
RUN "B1"
RUN "B2"
RUN "B3"
RUN "C1"
RUN "C2"
RUN "C3"
RUN "ROBO"
Does your monitor support 15k over RGB? (As i notice that i have to set my Philips CM8833 to RGB)based on this list it should support 15k over RGB.
I only tested it on the BenQ BL702A monitor (which seems to have a bit poor quality)yes each bas executed seperately. waited for the new basic prompt after each script.
But on my old Philips CM8833 i have perfect picture by using a VGA to SCART cable.
So your monitor is connected using a VGA connector? And did you run every .BAS file separately, so waiting until it return to the basic prompt?
I think, your monitor is not supporting it correctly. Do you have an old monitor like i have? (CM8833)
It could be possible to use an OSSC for both RGB and VGA and output from the CPC and give VGA the higher priority. So only a single DVI/HDMI monitor is required for both outputs. But someone will have to test.
Iam using this setup now. It is working for me.
RUN "Clear"
RUN "A1"
RUN "A2"
RUN "A3"
RUN "B1"
RUN "B2"
RUN "B3"
RUN "C1"
RUN "C2"
RUN "C3"
RUN "ROBO"
HAL 6128, where is the link to download the right file ?Upps, sorry missed the answer. There should be a link in the beginning of the thread. That's what I have.
I have been working on powergraph emulation. It is in early stages.This is great news... I'm all for vdp9990 development within symbos
I don't have a powergraph so I have been working from the manual.
Does anyone here have a CPC with powergraph that would run some tests on it and give me back a dsk with the results on?
Thank you.
Does anyone here have a CPC with powergraph that would run some tests on it and give me back a dsk with the results on?
In principle yes, but I couldn't find a monitor working with it up to now. So probably I need a monitor first.
I have been working on powergraph emulation. It is in early stages.
I don't have a powergraph so I have been working from the manual.
Does anyone here have a CPC with powergraph that would run some tests on it and give me back a dsk with the results on?
Why don't you test it? :)
As told... I can test it. But I need it first to test. ;) Attach an DSK and I will run any test. :)
Furthermore I can not see anything on VDP screen (which probably doesn't matter).
I don't need the board to be connected to a display for my first set of tests.
A huge thank you to @Prodatron (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=13) . The Powergraph arrived yesterday and I started my tests today.Thank you for the surprise in the package! :)
Thank you for the surprise in the package! :)You are welcome! :)
@GUNHED (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2029) : I bought an LG Flatron M1921A from "Ebay Kleinanzeigen" in Germany for about 10 €. It works fine with the powergraph. Just plug it via VGA cable.
Hi TFM,how did you connect the powergraph to the monitor (VGA cable?)Switch the monitor to RGB-DTV.How did you start the robot files (which order)?
Hey I just thought I'd add a link to a video I just uploaded of work in progress on the Powergraph - v9990 game engine thats being built into Quig/Symbos. For those of you who don't know Quigs is an IDE/Compiler which has been used to develop many apps (By Edo) for Symbos. However now is the time to use the power of symbos for g9k games.
Currently I'm half way through my Powergraph v9990 Mode P1 level mapping editor, so its going to get a lot nicer than you see in the video hopefully. Eventually will be fully integrated into the compiler/game engine. Sorry for the poor quality, but any questions of suggestions let me know.
The same game will run on both CPC and MSX (Possibly even Enterprise) as long as you have a v9990 attached. This is the same as any Symbos App, except it will be full screen v9990 if you have the hardware. And because it runs on Symbos you have the additional benefits of being able to support large media, networking, mouse etc etc.Will this be for amstrad or msx?
Last weekend I saw the Quigs and how to work with it. Actually, it's quite impressive and seems to be very efficient too. I couldn't understand everything he did, because the letters are so small (laptop), but it seems to be fully fledged now. Great tool!Thanks GUNHED. Nice you noticed that its efficient. I've put a lot of effort into the language and getting the compiled code as fast and tight as possible. Obviously you can never get close to hand coded Z80 even with C. But like you I'm determined to cut those cycles down to the minimum possible. We're going to need quick if the games are going to be any good.
Ah, C is fine :-) The nice guys from the Netherlands showed how incredible it is and to "make" a screen with boxes and all that features only takes second. I'm sure also the generated programs are fine. However in very few occasions one can include Z80 code (I guess). If the result is 3% slower than pure machine code, who cares? ;) Pure awesomeness! :)Its probably a lot more than 3% though :( . I think its the structure of high level language against the way a good z80 coder codes and juggles registers. The differences for more modern processors favour this style, but the z80 with its limited register set means I will never get close to the 'to the metal' code most experienced z80 guys would. The code does have a certain elegance to it though.