Arkos Tracker 2 - Released!

[roudoudou]

i need a playcity 

[XeNoMoRPH]

i need a playcity 

I have one !!! , it's time to compose something using those 9 channels 

[TotO]

At less with 6ch!

[Targhan]

Additional note: for those wanting to convert the player/songs into their assembler's syntax, everything is explained here.

[Targhan]

I'd like to have a page to show all the productions that use Arkos Tracker 2 (on CPC or others. Only AT2, not AT1). It's for the software promotion!
Please contact me if you ever used my software, thanks!

[Targhan]

Hi all,

I am very proud to present you... Arkos Tracker 2 alpha 7! (Don't search for alpha 6, it felt into a warp zone.)

Lots of cool stuff in there, including:
- Undo/redo for the Pattern Viewer (only... for now)! This is a life changer .
- Color for any instrument. Also a life changer once you have used it.
- An effect chooser in the Pattern Viewer, you'll never have to learn them anymore!
- Sound effect support for AKY player (you can now use it in your games).
... And many bug fixes and smaller features.

A bonus for non-CPCists:
- YM chip support.
- 6502 AKY player.

For a complete changelog, click here!

Download the application here!

[keith56]

so the AKY player supports Z80, 6502 and 68000 now?

That's very interesting!

[Targhan]

Indeed, the exact same CPU that are in your signature, funnily enough .

[keith56]

I'll be adding x86 and ARM to my sig next year! :-P

Great news on the CPU support... here's hoping someone manages 6809 one day, so the Vectrex can have some Arkos too!

I'll have to make some time to try out the new version, and see how many systems I can get it running on!

[reidrac]

- Undo/redo for the Pattern Viewer (only... for now)! This is a life changer .

Copy & Paste between subsongs... that would be a life changer for me

[mr_lou]

Downloaded latest version (for Linux) today, to find that I still can't press the keys to play the instrument if the instruments are selected.

I have to be in the pattern editor. 

[Targhan]

Downloaded latest version (for Linux) today, to find that I still can't press the keys to play the instrument if the instruments are selected.

Of course, else it would clash with many other keys specific to the currently selected area. But, from your suggestion, your cursor don't have to be on a note column.

Copy & Paste between subsongs... that would be a life changer for me

Not for now, sorry. But you can do it anyway (this is a hack) : copy your data, paste them in a notepad. Change your subsong. Copy the data from the notepad, paste them in the subsong. Untested, but this should work!

[Schneckenwerk]

Hello Targahn! 


How about a VST-Version of Arkos without the sequenzer? Can you do that?

[Token]

It's almost one, MIDI file import. And it can rip anything from an YM to create instrument (with a little work on the editor to make different notes). Gwem did a VSTi for the ST, of course there isn't recording and save in a tracker format. Chip sound would end like any random softsynth, with their own limitation? The next gen surely. Arkos 2 is the biggest step into this since I know 88 soundtracker.

[Targhan]

Copy & Paste between subsongs... that would be a life changer for me

@reidrac I gave it some thoughts and... It actually works, what is the problem? (and why did I talk about the hack above??). The only problem is the clipboard is cleared when the subsong is created, but when you switch the subsong with the dropdown at the top, the clipboard is not erased. Can you confirm this?

How about a VST-Version of Arkos without the sequenzer? Can you do that?

@Schneckenwerk That's funny because I thought about it recently. It would be a VSTi, right? It is technically doable, but there would be many questions as to make it really truly good. I think it would be better to redesign the whole (but I could reuse many lines of code, of course). With a midi editor, the note on/off should really be handled, which is not how things work for now. The same with effects. How to create a simple or complex arpeggio? It would be nice to have something like putting your notes at the same timestamp, and dictates how to play them, somehow. But it sure would be an interesting project, and I'm sure many people would use it. But we would allow all these great things the CPC limitation "allows" us to do, paradoxically.
As for the export format, I think the added complexity would only make it possible to use AKY, not the other formats. What do you think?
Basically, having "just" a VSTi that produces square sounds is totally redundant nowadays. What would be nice is a tool to compose for the AY/YM, bypassing the "limitations" of a tracker (the "grid"), while allowing anyone to use their own software (Cubase, Reaper, etc.). This is really interesting .

[reidrac]

@reidrac I gave it some thoughts and... It actually works, what is the problem? (and why did I talk about the hack above??). The only problem is the clipboard is cleared when the subsong is created, but when you switch the subsong with the dropdown at the top, the clipboard is not erased. Can you confirm this?

That's right, it works as you say. I don't know what I did wrong but I tried a couple of times and it didn't work so I assumed it wasn't implemented. Perhaps I tried it just after creating a subsong!

Thanks!

[Token]

A great VSTi form of Arkos should work like V2 system or 4Klang softsynth, RECORDING and SAVE the chiptune with the original tracker format.

A VSTi like Gwem did can be great too (to begin with), so you have in your DAW the very same chiptune in Arkos 2 after reading/converting the MIDI file. A bit useless with Maxymizer, it doesn't read MIDI file. You don't have your tune playing on a real Atari ST.
Why I think that Arkos 2 have it all yet, a simple VSTi would be enough for me, instead sampling the sound inside the tracker and use it inside the DAW with a sampler, it's a slower inaccurate process.

To me there's no reason the performances couldn't be the same under a DAW than a tracker, just the pattern system is lost. Maybe some people want to get rid of the quantization, interresting, but to me it goes to the wrong direction if it's not just an option. I don't really needed the note off, or very few, it depend of the nature of the sound and I can cut the note with another sound anyway. It's not that hard to organize the events and fake the chipsound limitations in a DAW. The main bonus I like to have is to be able to play a chord as preview even if it can't be fully recorded on just one channel (first note pressed should) like some old mod trackers.

I'm not sure how the same instrument will know it's channel at time. A MIDI code could do the trick, it shouldn't make the chiptune bigger, just it write the note with the right instrument in the right channel.

Then that VSTi should have everything that Arkos 2 have, just it doesn't have the pattern editor. MIDI have everything to be able to call that arpeggio and all the fx Arkos 2 have, modulation, pitch bend, expression, cc code... In the end, only the pattern system should be an advantage for the tracker and size of the chiptune. Perhaps it can be implemented, probably complex or it's a matter of an organisation with MIDI.

[Targhan]

I disagree with your conception of a tracker VSTi. I overviewed the Maxymiser VSTi, and to me it's not right. It's "just" a PSG channel emulator. Could can do things you can not do with a PSG (such as one hardware envelope, one noise generator). To me, in your DAW, you should be able to route your MIDI to a "channel" in the VSTi, with each channel a PSG. So you can have as many tracks as you want in your DAW, but finally routing them into one (or more) PSG. This would be a feature called "virtual tracks".

But all this is overhead, and the players I provide are already quite complex, and I don't want to slow them down. So to me, only the streamed AKY can be used.

But mapping the MIDI effects to AT2 effects is probably not as simple as you think. Please show me what you have in mind about the arpeggio. To me, the way to go is to "see" the notes directly on your track, not a single note and an arpeggio number in an effect, which is counter-intuitive when you use a piano roll interface.

[Token]

Ok, different MIDI tracks for different channels of the same instrument, that's why I wrote I'm NOT sure how the same instrument will know it's channel at time.About at the rest of my conception than above; by the past you msg me that MIDI import is not really possible. It's not ideal but I knew it's nice enough with OpenMPT since years even if it can deal with sample loop like drums (ooch). And before AT2 I could do it with AT1 by saving a small pattern in audio and find the BPM in the DAW. When the music was done I used a netbook + pc to record MIDI from the DAW into arkos 1, channel per channel.

To me a code is enough for arpeggio inside the MIDI editor from the DAW, if the arpeggio window is the same than in arkos 2 inside the VSTi. Like a program change is enough to change an instrument. The way to go is to "see" the the note of the arpeggio, but why it is needed from the DAW MIDI editor if you have them inside the VSTi? I don't see any other solution than MIDI code for calling a fx or something inside the VSTi that can be recorded by the DAW. Automation. But I'm not sure I understand what you meant like the last time we communicate. So no need to go far about it, I don't have nor want to give a solution, and I know since that old messages, you have it yet, just it will grow. Just keep the good work. I'm pretty sure AT2 is an inspiration for other pc trackers, soon or later, there are pc tracker for C64 i.e., they will end as a plugin for a DAW with the simplest solution.

[Targhan]

We definitely don't really understand each other I'm afraid . Maybe we should use French emails .
You are aware that MIDI import works in AT2, right? I may have said it was not possible, meaning "not easy to do". But with a bit of thinking, I managed to do something that I think is good enough. I don't remember what we talked about in emails, but it was a long time ago and probably not relevant anymore.

Now about the VSTi. I want the user composing in the most natural way. This is not natural to put one note in the piano roll of your DAW and hear a "0-3-7" arpeggio. So with my approach, by putting three notes at the same time, the VSTi will "understand" it as an arpeggio. Each MIDI note has a channel, so we can map channel 1-3 to PSG1, channel 4-6 to PSG2, etc. (the limit would be 5 PSGs, which is more than enough). The way the arpeggio would be played (in which order to play the note) could be defined in the VSTi, and a special message (Expression number for example) would indicate which one to use.
The instrument number would be changed via a Program Change event.

[Token]

Clever idea with chord recognition for arp fx, organize MIDI tracks and MIDI channel which btw can be more than 16 with ports.

For now, I think AT2 does "most of the work" with the MIDI import.
The above idea (arp) could be implemented (not saying to do that) then there's (almost) no edition to do in the tracker. A simple VSTi to play CPC sound with AT2 sound patches and sound editor then I can have more or less the same music in the DAW than in the tracker. Which is really good yet.

That's what I meant with Gwem's plugin. (maybe not ideal, I didn't tried: useless without MIDI import on Maxymiser, I don't care to talk about it's tech, it's just the plugin idea)

I'm not having a conception, I don't create audio tools. Just wrote on cpcwiki, just talking. There could be another step before the full thinked VSTi idea. That full "AT2" (maybe AT3) VSTi solution is of course better, but I have yet what I want if I have that CPC sound inside the DAW, of course if must read the AT2 sound patche file.

I didn't like the idea it could get rid off totally the tracker side because most people use them, but there are VSTi trackers, so it's ok.  I also whish there was a kind of compatibility with AT2, at least the instrument.

[Schneckenwerk]

Basically, having "just" a VSTi that produces square sounds is totally redundant nowadays.

The AY ist not just a square-thing!
There is also the special sound of the noise generator (it is not just white noise), the special way to do drum sounds and the very special sound you can get via the hardware-envelope.


And:
The extra-fast arpeggios!
It would be really nice if you could play your arp-chords just by playing the chords on the keyboard.
Also you could change the speed of the arps via the mod wheel or another controller in realtime.






I think, a VSTi would be useful. 

[Targhan]

AT2 stays stand-alone. AT2Vsti may exist one day, but it will be a bit different. But in my opinion, a VSTi must be "optimized" this way, and must matching the way people work with DAW, not with trackers. And ultimately, it must remain 100% PSG compatible and the result exportable to a CPC/other 8 bits.

The AY ist not just a square-thing!

Yes, I'm aware of that . Which is way the way Gwem implemented its VSTi is not right, in my opinion. We have to implement the 3-channel interaction too (one noise/hardware envelope).

MIDI channel which btw can be more than 16 with ports.

Mmmh, maybe, but could that be done for ONE instance of a VSTi? I'm not sure.

[Targhan]

I'd like to collect some feedback from Arkos Tracker users (even AT1!), because I plan on introducing a major change for the next version. It is about how the Linker is managed.

In STarKos, AT1 and AT2, I managed individual Tracks per pattern, in order to save memory. This was, I think, a great idea with STarkos, because the CPC memory is not unlimited, so it helped compose bigger songs in the editor.
However, after composing a lot with AT2, I now think this system is not relevant anymore. It's much simpler to have pattern as "big blocks of notes, on several tracks". Now that copy/paste and undo/redo is here, I'd like to remove the track system and use a more simpler and common "pattern", as you can find in most trackers.

As for the questions that will arise:

• What about transpositions? You will still be able to use them, but INSIDE the pattern viewer, just above each individual track.
• What about pattern height? The same, it will be in the pattern viewer.
• Retro compatibility? In the AT2 itself, the import will take care of that. For the players, not a single change is needed, but AT2 will still manage tracks internally! But they will not be shared among different  patterns.

The optimization provided by this system will still be present, but it managed by AT2, not anymore by yourself! So you won't have to remember in what pattern this track was used. If tracks are the same, they are optimized on export. Much simpler to compose songs!

Basically, I think it will make the usability much smoother, less error prone, and the interface even more leaner. Any thoughts are welcome.

[reidrac]

The optimization provided by this system will still be present, but it managed by AT2, not anymore by yourself! So you won't have to remember in what pattern this track was used. If tracks are the same, they are optimized on export. Much simpler to compose songs!

Basically, I think it will make the usability much smoother, less error prone, and the interface even more leaner. Any thoughts are welcome.

I prefer how it works now compared with other trackers that only manage patterns instead of tracks.

It works better with my way of structuring songs.