Hi,
Arkos will soon release a Windows-based tool to create your music for CPC. It's a bit like the STarKos, only more powerful and intuitive. Sound is outputed to your sound card, or directly to your CPC in real-time if you have a CPCBooster !
Here's a little preview :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3xqWeJjxVA
Some features of Arkos Tracker :
- 256 patterns available.
- Each pattern is composed of 3 independent tracks.
- 512 tracks available, each being reusable in any pattern, or even several times in the same pattern.
- Each track can be transposed independently in a pattern.
- A track has a height from 1 to 128 lines, independently of the pattern that uses it.
- 255 instruments available.
- The instrument editor allows you to modify each registers of the PSG.
- Replay frequency of 13, 25, 50, 100, 150 or 300hz.
- Possibility to put "events" in your song. They can either be used to synchronize your music with your production, or trigger digidrums for exemple.
- Big news : instruments are divised into two channels : a Software, and Hardware one. These channels can be independant or dependent from each other. Allows using two waves at the same time !
- Allows you to play sound effects in a very flexible and powerful way. You can also play the SFXs without any music.
- You can import any STarKos song.
- NO SID/DMA for CPC+ for now. I may plan that...
About the Player :
- Only 25 scanlines maximum used !
- On top of being faster than the STarKos player, it's lighter : one and a half kb.
- The player works on Amstrad CPC, MSX, Spectrum or Pentagon (using conditional assembling : only the necessary code is used).
- The generated songs are very light (about as much as the STarKos song. Sometimes a bit lighter, sometimes not).
- Can be used in Basic (call the player by yourself, or use it under interruptions), and Assembler.
- The source of the player is given, and documented.
- The format of the music is given. So you'll be able to create your own custom tools (conversion, new players...).
- Fade in/out available.
About the sound effects :
- Every instrument of your song becomes a sound effect.
- You can play/stop a sound effect on any, or all, of the 3 channels.
- You can choose the note, volume, speed of any triggered SFX.
- You can add Pitch to them (useful to add randomness to the sounds, for example).
- Sound effects are in a seperate file : you can use the same sound bank even if you change the music.
For the hardcore composers among you, nothing will prevent you from using STarKos. You can import you SKS song, convert them with Arkos Tracker, and use the new players !
I hope to release the tool in 2 or 3 weeks.
Thanks for reading and see you soon,
Targhan/Arkos.
:o
You rule! :) That looks really really really cool! :D I especially like the instrument-as-sound-effects options now. That's really groovy! :) And putting events into the tune is groovy too!
I hope it works with Wine on Linux. Would be neat. But otherwise I'm fine using STarKos, and letting the game-developer convert the track when it's ready. (I must admit, that I'm most comfortable using a real CPC to do the music, but that might change of course). In any case, I'm looking forward to checking out Arkos Tracker. 8)
Maybe the Arkos Tracker format should be added to IndieGameMusic.com? :) hehe. No doubt it'll soon be the format for the CPC, MXS, Spectrum and Pentagon machines.
Well done Targhan
This rules!
What language did you use to write the Windows application?
I used C#. That's why I don't think it can be easily ported on other system. The software in itself should, but not the library I used (from Augusto Ruiz, the creator of WyzTracker. Thanks for your awesome support !!) to play the sounds, as it uses unmanaged code, which I guess is not supported by Mono.
>And putting events into the tune is groovy too!
Actually, those already exist in STarKos. Use the "D" command in a Special Track. It can be used for both digidrums and Events, it just matters how you interpret the signal from the player :).
Trg.Aks
Cool to see a new cross-platform tracker based on Starkos. I already liked the Starkos Tracker and so using this tracker can now really help when developing on PC for the CPC. I can't wait to play with it and use my CPC Booster with it, too :D.
Sounds promising yet the PLUS should really be taken into account...
>Sounds promising yet the PLUS should really be taken into account...
It won't for now, clearly. But nothing prevents you from using the player and add a SID/whatever support on selected instrument, as you have the frequency. And troll Zik who has been working on his Soundtracker DMA for 10 years, maybe he'll finish it.
Trg.Aks
Hey! Any news on the project? :)
Yes, it's almost ready, but I'm currently also working on the release of another project, guess what it is :).
Trg.Aks
Hmmmm any hints? :)
You should be clever enough to find out :).
Trg.Aks
Ooh! Ooh! I know! Shadow of the Beast III!!!
Sorry, I overestimated you :).
Trg.Aks
Ah darn... I've been waiting for that for 15 years now... :(
Hi,
Arkos Tracker V1.0 Beta is now released !
Grab a copy on the Arkos website : www.arkos.cpcscene.com
See you soon,
Trg.Aks
Yaaaay! Unfortunately my music-making days are long gone, so kudos for the included goodies!!!!
Nice tool!
Is it possible to run it on a Pentium2-PC with Windows 95?
Please don´t ask why, the story is too long to tell.
Quote from: Leonie on 19:26, 14 April 10
Nice tool!
Is it possible to run it on a Pentium2-PC with Windows 95?
Please don´t ask why, the story is too long to tell.
Just try it and you will see ;)
Hi,
I don't think W95 will accept .net framework... So my software won't work. Sorry !
Trg.Aks
Quote from: Devilmarkus on 19:29, 14 April 10
Just try it and you will see ;)
I have to move several meters to this PC.
So I should know it before I start to walk.
@ Targhan:
Fortunately I can run it on my dated E-Series Lifebook (Windows XP, 1,7 Ghz, 512 Mb Ram).
Some instruments sounds like sid-voice or sync-buzzer.
Am I right?
Is the CPCs Cpu strong enough to generate Digi-Drums, sid-voice and sync-buzzer to the same time, maybe for a thick titeltune of a game (not InGame)?
No, no SIDs here. Maybe later. But Arkos Tracker sounds kick ass :). Who needs SID anyway with all you can do with "normal" AY sounds ?
>Is the CPCs Cpu strong enough to generate Digi-Drums, sid-voice and sync-buzzer to the same time, maybe for a thick titeltune of a game (not InGame)?
If you code *very* well, it's possible.
Trg.Aks
Quote from: Targhan on 20:28, 14 April 10
No, no SIDs here. Maybe later.
But Arkos Tracker sounds kick ass :) .
Who needs SID anyway with all you can do with "normal" AY sounds ?
That´s quite impressive!
I´ve always been a big fan of the AY-Chip, and it´s really fantastic, what you can tickle out of this wonderful Chip.
The demo-song is irritating...
It sounds just like a compilation of "single-exercises".
Deliberate?
Absolutely. Just to show a sample of sounds. Such couldn't be done with any other tools on CPC (or at least, not as easily).
Just use the "Import SKS" option, there are plenty of STarKos songs to hear in the "SKS Songs" folder.
Trg.Aks
Yes, it's obvious the demo song is just that; a demo :D But last night I worked at my PC listening to the SKS songs (what format is this???) in the background and I really enjoyed it. I wish the tracker had a more complete player module, like one that accepts playlists (I know it's got nothing to do with a tracker's functionality, I'm just saying), because I had to go back to the program and change song each time I realized the loop played again and again.
Time to toy around with it - I didn't notice, are there any instruments in the package?
Oh, also, it seems that Alt+F4 or the X control don't work when a song is playing...?
>listening to the SKS songs (what format is this???)
SKS is the STarKos format.
>I wish the tracker had a more complete player module
One possible way to do it is to export the songs to WAV or YM and use any software which can read it...
>Time to toy around with it - I didn't notice, are there any instruments in the package?
"Instruments" folder :).
>Oh, also, it seems that Alt+F4 or the X control don't work when a song is playing...?
As written in the manual, it may not work if the player is running (it's a known bug). Either use "Exit" in the "File" menu, or press "Stop" (or Esc) to stop the song, and press the cross or Alt+F4
Targhan/Arkos.
1. Ah I see
2. Yes, but awkward. Still, doable for songs one really likes!
3. As I said, I didn't look. Thanks :)
4. ...and I didn't have the time to read the manual. So sorry for bringing old news!
No problem :).
Which MS .NET version do you recommend Targhan?
The software is compiled for 3.5. In future version I *may* try to use down to 2.0, if people can't install the latest framework. But it also depends on functionality I use...
>Thanx. I'm a little bit confused: MS already released four .Net versions:
Is .Net v4.0 down-compatible?
Yes, Net is retro compatible. It's simply that I didn't designed my app for this framework. With a bit of tweaking, Arkos Tracker should be working on .net 2.0, but I'd loose some comfort programming some functionality.
Trg.Aks
Quote from: Targhan on 18:45, 20 February 10
I used C#. That's why I don't think it can be easily ported on other system. The software in itself should, but not the library I used (from Augusto Ruiz, the creator of WyzTracker. Thanks for your awesome support !!) to play the sounds, as it uses unmanaged code, which I guess is not supported by Mono.
Targhan, maybe we can have a look at porting the MCI code (the only code that is platform-dependant) to Linux? I think I know how to do so, cause it's basically write to some sort of virtual file...
>Targhan, maybe we can have a look at porting the MCI code (the only code that is platform-dependant) to Linux? I think I know how to do so, cause it's basically write to some sort of virtual file...
I have no knowledge of Mac OSx or Linux. If you can come up with one solution it would be great. For now I'd rather concentrate on the Windows release I admit :).
Great utility as expected , i made the awfull effort to install .NET 3.5 (vomits)
This tracker/player is awesome!!!
Now one question: How can I convert a Soundtrakker song to it?
My problem is that I have my Songs for Giana Sisters in Soundtrakker format and they use up more than 40 (!!!) scanlines !!! If Starkos and the new Arkos Tracker only use 25 scanlines, than this would really solve some serious timing problems.
Can anybody help?
Hi,
There is no converter from Soundtrakker to STarkos or Arkos Tracker. You must either create a converter or convert the songs by hand. The latter will probably be the fastest :). Soundtrakker format is simple though. STarkos/AT isn't. Maybe the original composer could make the convertion (Kangaroo ?) ?
Trg.Aks
Quote from: Targhan on 16:20, 22 April 10
Hi,
There is no converter from Soundtrakker to STarkos or Arkos Tracker. You must either create a converter or convert the songs by hand. The latter will probably be the fastest :) . Soundtrakker format is simple though. STarkos/AT isn't. Maybe the original composer could make the convertion (Kangaroo ?) ?
Trg.Aks
You're right! Maybe it's the best to do it by hand. Let's see how this works with instruments.
Well, Kangaroo ... hmm... guess .... hmmm.... I better ask Tolkin to do so, he has also some Sound experiences ;-)
I am looking at the player to integrate it in my code and i must say the SFX management is great !
I am very impressed with the work you made here , remember some PC sound libraries , it is pretty simple to use and allows a lot of things ;D
I have an idea for an "expansion" for Arkos Tracker and STarKos.
There is a utility from 1986 by Superior called Speech (http://ftp://ftp.nvg.ntnu.no/pub/cpc/utils/cpc/speech.zip). It loads some RSX commands, so that you can do e.g. |say,"Hello there"
And then your CPC speaks. It's quite neat.
It could be cool to have a tool that would let me generate instruments for STarKos like that. Maybe like an addon for Speech, so that when loaded I could do |instrument,"Hello there"
And then it should save an instrument to disk, which can then be loaded with STarKos.
:)
Speech uses 49 phonemens, according to the demo. So I'm thinking that it's about translating these 49 phonemens into STarKos instrument data. Dunno if it's doable though. But my idea is hereby shared.
Quote from: mr_lou on 14:55, 24 May 10
I have an idea for an "expansion" for Arkos Tracker and STarKos.
There is a utility from 1986 by Superior called Speech (http://ftp://ftp.nvg.ntnu.no/pub/cpc/utils/cpc/speech.zip). It loads some RSX commands, so that you can do e.g. |say,"Hello there"
And then your CPC speaks. It's quite neat.
It could be cool to have a tool that would let me generate instruments for STarKos like that. Maybe like an addon for Speech, so that when loaded I could do |instrument,"Hello there"
And then it should save an instrument to disk, which can then be loaded with STarKos.
:)
Speech uses 49 phonemens, according to the demo. So I'm thinking that it's about translating these 49 phonemens into STarKos instrument data. Dunno if it's doable though. But my idea is hereby shared.
The phonemes are 4-bit samples.
I think they are packed in the same way as robocop stores them (two samples in a byte).
so may be possible to extract and use with starkos.
Then you would need to trigger them in your music?
Being used to track music with Protracker and Milkytracker, I don't know if I'd call that data "samples".
But anyway. It's "just" a matter of translating those "samples" into STarKos instrument data.
I wouldn't know how do to that myself.
These are samples. They are as much supported as digidrums. Trigger them if you want, but for now you can't hear them in the Tracker. But you could use the digidrums code you can find in the STarKos kit to play these samples if you want to...
And you can't "translate" these "voice samples" in STarKos. STarKos doesn't allow changing the volume with the sound channel cut (which is necessary to play samples), and 300hz wouldn't even be enough. Better play samples like digidrums !
Hm, I must have overlooked something. I didn't think it was possible to use samples in STarKos....
I'll have a look again.
It is not possible to *hear* samples *inside* STarKos/Arkos Tracker. But you can trigger them (or anything else !) using the D command in the Special Track. For example, if you write D01 somewhere in your song, then when you're using the external player, simply read the "Digidrum" byte (if you're using the source file, else it's a simple offset like Player+x (I forgot what value, check the STarKos website)). If it's 0, then nothing is triggered. If the song comes to the point where you put a "D01", then the value "1" can be found at the Digidrum address. So you can use that to play digidrum (1=bass drum 2=snare ...), or synchronize anything with your song (1=first effect coming, 2=logo appears)...
Couples that with the Digidrum player you can find in the STarKos kit, and you can play samples whenever you want in your song. The only drawback is that you can't hear them inside STarKos or Arkos Tracker (for now).
Trg.Aks
That's quite interesting.
Sorry for being all newbie'ish here, and for making you re-explain what's already described on the documentation page.
It seems everyone had the joy of experiencing digidrums and such way back, and I'm way behind, only discovering this now.
But anyway. How do I create these SPL files? I'm unable to find a Digidrums application anywhere. Googling for CPC Digidrums doesn't give me anything. Searching for SPL or Digidrums here at the wiki doesn't give me anything either.
And another question: When playing back MDL files, we use lots of CPU power. Roughly how much CPU power do we use for a single track of Digidrums in a SKS track?
>How do I create these SPL files?
They are 8 bits unsigned wav files. I guess they are converted on the fly by my digidrum code.
>When playing back MDL files, we use lots of CPU power. Roughly how much CPU power do we use for a single track of Digidrums in a SKS track?
If you want to do anything else besides digidrums, you have to micro-code your routines WHILE playing the digidrum. To have a 16khz digidrum (quite useless, 8kz is enough), you have to play one sample each scanline (each 64 nops). If playing one sample takes about 10 nops, then you have to microcode everything else in 54 nops...
So let's pretend that playing digidrums uses 20% on the ressources, but is limitating as you have to micro code the other codes, else your screw the sample replay (which is not really important while playing a drum, that's why we can use a "raw" player like the STarkos one, and not a microcode one. But playing a "real" sample would be crappy with a non-microcoded player).
Discussion about Digidrums continued here (http://cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php/topic,772.msg9187.html#msg9187)
I downloaded Arkos Tracker, I want to run it under Linux.
I have mono installed, the command-line tools work like this e.g. "mono AKSToBIN.exe"
I installed lib winforms 2.0 (probably need to install 3.5 or similar). I run ArkosTracker.
It throws a null exception in "InstrumentViewRefresh".
I tried it with "sudo mono ArkosTracker.exe" - same problem.
I'm making progress.
Getting furthur. Installed "mono for windows" using wine.
Now I get a different error when I do this "wine ArkosTracker.exe".
Before wine would tell me I needed to install mono if I wanted to use .net programs ;)
So, I was just reading Demoniak 4 : P As well as enjoying your tutorials about rasters and probably going to try them later (even though I think they're hugely overused, everyone has to know how, right? :)), I also thought the music was great, in both its composition and sound (i.e. technical quality). This has made me very keen to try StArkos, since I'd like to sequence a song or two of my own on the CPC but am baffled enough by tracking in general that I don't think it would be ideal to try to learn it first on the CPC. So, thanks! Even if I wasn't planning to make music, I'd still appreciate the fact that it's available and actively developed. And hopefully I'll have a song to post within a week or two. :D
Now I tried:
winetricks corefonts
winetricks tahoma
still it doesn't find the fonts :laugh:
I give up for now.
arnoldemu , i'm using this tools under mono in my Debian without problems, the packages that i have installed are:
libmono-accessibility2.0-cil - Mono Accessibility library (for CLI 2.0)
libmono-corlib2.0-cil - Mono core library (for CLI 2.0)
libmono-corlib4.0-cil - Mono core library (for CLI 4.0)
libmono-data-tds2.0-cil - Mono Data Library (for CLI 2.0)
libmono-i18n-west2.0-cil - Mono I18N.West library (for CLI 2.0)
libmono-i18n-west4.0-cil - Mono I18N.West library (for CLI 4.0)
libmono-i18n4.0-cil - Mono I18N base library (for CLI 4.0)
libmono-messaging2.0-cil - Mono Messaging library (for CLI 2.0)
libmono-posix2.0-cil - Mono.Posix library (for CLI 2.0)
libmono-security2.0-cil - Mono Security library (for CLI 2.0)
libmono-security4.0-cil - Mono Security library (for CLI 4.0)
libmono-sharpzip2.84-cil - Mono SharpZipLib library (for CLI 2.0)
libmono-sqlite2.0-cil - Mono Sqlite library (for CLI 2.0)
libmono-system-configuration4.0-cil - Mono System.Configuration library (for CLI 4.0)
libmono-system-data-linq2.0-cil - Mono System.Data.Linq Library (for CLI 2.0)
libmono-system-data2.0-cil - Mono System.Data Library (for CLI 2.0)
libmono-system-messaging2.0-cil - Mono System.Messaging Library (for CLI 2.0)
libmono-system-security4.0-cil - Mono System.Security library (for CLI 4.0)
libmono-system-web2.0-cil - Mono System.Web Library (for CLI 2.0)
libmono-system-xml4.0-cil - Mono System.Xml library (for CLI 4.0)
libmono-system2.0-cil - Mono System libraries (for CLI 2.0)
libmono-system4.0-cil - Mono System libraries (for CLI 4.0)
libmono-wcf3.0-cil - Mono WCF libraries (for CLI 2.0)
libmono-webbrowser2.0-cil - Mono Web Browser library (for CLI 2.0)
libmono-winforms2.0-cil - Mono System.Windows.Forms library (for CLI 2.0)
libmono2.0-cil - Mono libraries (for CLI 2.0)
mono-4.0-gac - Mono GAC tool (for CLI 4.0)
mono-gac - Mono GAC tool
If i remember well, the 2.0 versions are enough for the arkos commandline tools and the 4.0 are for the wyztracker.
Sorry, I can't really help you about using Mono. I always thought it couldn't run WinForms, so...
@db6128: glad to know my work is still relevant :) . However, Arkos Tracker is not developed anymore for now. I'd like to improve it but lacks time for that. I still think STarkos, thought of course more limited, "feels" better than Arkos Tracker. No PC can compete with the real hardware!
Trg.Aks
Quote from: Targhan on 19:46, 11 December 12Arkos Tracker is not developed anymore for now. I'd like to improve it but lacks time for that. I still think STarkos, thought of course more limited, "feels" better than Arkos Tracker. No PC can compete with the real hardware!
Of course, but it's very handy to have a Windows version to learn it all for the first time. :) There's nothing wrong with the CPC, but it's definitely a more 'mysterious' environment, especially for noobs. : P
To me it's my weapon of choice.
I don't have the hardware (6128) or the space to have a full CPC set up all the time, and using Arkos on windows it's way more comfortable to me than using Starkos inside an emulator ;D
Last time I tried to convert simple 3 channel MIDI composition (cause I'm usually score MIDI musician) to Arkos Tracher I couldn't, due to Arkos Tracker does not understand or pass "rests" to tracks. I used MIDI player ouput to Arkos midi input.
And Arkos PLAY it OK with assigned sounds but allowed REC only ONE midi input channel to tracker channel... and without rests and correct measurement :(
I work better with score than with tracker numbers... what a pity!!
:-[
But I like a lot this app.
In Spain on "Computer Music extra #5" magazine they review (page 81 and put inside DVD-rom) the great Arkos Tracker :)
Old-school trackers are really not made to handle MIDI signals. They lack the accuracy one could find with MIDI, as you can only trigger a note, at best, once every 1/300s, but rather 6/50 as most people will use a 50hz player, with a new "line" every six frames. Modern trackers such as Renoise on PC allows a "delay" effect, but the aim of Arkos Tracker is to target a CPC with a rather limited memory and CPU resources, so I didn't include such effect. Even if I did, it would only be accurate to the frame, which still may not be enough to reproduce a very "human" MIDI score.
Also, it is logical that the MIDI "note off" isn't recorded by Arkos Tracker, since the sounds don't rely on ADSR envelopes, or even a simple Attack/Release system. Once again it relies on very simple mechanism that, in my opinion, makes the software still powerful for the CPC target. Even though the software is on PC, the main constraint is still the player on the real hardware, and I wanted it to be as fast as possible.
At best, I could implement a "note off" record that would add "Off" notes, but I'm not sure the result would be interesting as the note would directly stop.
Quote from: Targhan on 11:17, 05 January 13
I could implement a "note off" record that would add "Off" notes, but I'm not sure the result would be interesting as the note would directly stop.
Yes please!!! Let's go
We will try. To hear what sounds then... "MIDI 2 CPC" is too much, a crazy dream, but it could approach slightly :)
[Good wishes for 2013]
Quote from: Targhan on 19:46, 11 December 12
Sorry, I can't really help you about using Mono. I always thought it couldn't run WinForms, so...
@db6128: glad to know my work is still relevant :) . However, Arkos Tracker is not developed anymore for now. I'd like to improve it but lacks time for that. I still think STarkos, thought of course more limited, "feels" better than Arkos Tracker. No PC can compete with the real hardware!
Trg.Aks
some winforms and win32 can be run through wine and mono on wine.
@Targhan: Is there source available so I can look at it and fix it for linux?
for me it doesn't matter which mono libraries I install, the tracker itself will not run under linux. :(
@RockRiver : sorry to disappoint, but I don't have time to spend time on Arkos Tracker right now, though I'd love to do it some day.
@ArnoldEmu : sorry to disappoint, but I don't intent to share the code for now, as I'd like to improve it some day.
Thanks for your understanding :).
Trg.Aks
Well, it's good to hear that work - one day - will continue at Arkos Trakker.
Also it would be great if this would influence Starkos is a positive way. May you can use ideas from Arkos Trakker also to make Starkos even better. I ask, because I can use Starkos on my CPC and have no need to get a PC for making songs on the CPC. ;)
I don't think STarKos will evolve ; or if it can actually. There's no more memory left for big modifications, and all the new "hard" management of Arkos Tracker would be quite cumbersome on a CPC, UI-wise. One projet that could be interesting to do would be a compiler from SKS to AKS binary songs so that people who stick to the CPC wouldn't have to use the PC generators. The formats are all available if someone wants to perform this (awkward but interesting) task :).
Could the STarKos core code not be converted to ROM or ROMs? Then you could free up RAM for extensions and plugins or even put them on ROM too?
Bryce.
I'm against STarKos being in a ROM, as I want it to be working without any extension. Almost all the 64k "secondary" memory is used for the song data, as STarKos can handle huge music. In my experience, I never saw any music being bigger than 15kb, so it may be possible to use some of this memory for more code. However, it's not that easy because the architecture of the software would have to be modified.
Quote from: Bryce on 22:32, 08 January 13
Could the STarKos core code not be converted to ROM or ROMs? Then you could free up RAM for extensions and plugins or even put them on ROM too?
Bryce.
Or just use more RAM. Nice for people with RAM expansions ;-)
Quote from: Targhan on 18:40, 07 January 13
@ArnoldEmu : sorry to disappoint, but I don't intent to share the code for now, as I'd like to improve it some day.
Thanks for your understanding :) .
Trg.Aks
At work I adapted a windows forms app to work under mono on a mac.
I took out the "EnableVisualStyles" call in the program.cs. I also installed XQuartz.
After I did both of these the app worked.
Perhaps the same could be done for Arkos Tracker? (Remove the EnableVisualStyles) to make it work under Linux?
The point is to have programs running on a real CPC (gladly with expansions)!!!
If software runs on a PC, why shall it create stuff for the CPC? Then just stay with the PC and that's it.
I use the CPC because I don't want to use the PC, so only software which runs on the real machine counts for me. And expansions for the CPC are great and shall be supported IMHO.
I agree with TFM.
But if you absolutely feel you MUST code for the PC, then at least use a technology that runs on both Mac, Linux and Windoze.
Or, if you absolutely feel you MUST support only one of the above platforms, a CPC scener surely chooses anything but a Microsoft platform.
I seriously question Targhan's loyalty to the CPC. He sure has a lot of explaining to do. I'm pretty sure he's a Microsoft spy trying to move all the musicians away from the CPC, but it won't work I tell ya! At least not with this musician.
:laugh:
Quote from: TFM/FS on 18:21, 01 April 13
The point is to have programs running on a real CPC (gladly with expansions)!!!
If software runs on a PC, why shall it create stuff for the CPC? Then just stay with the PC and that's it.
I use the CPC because I don't want to use the PC, so only software which runs on the real machine counts for me. And expansions for the CPC are great and shall be supported IMHO.
I like making music for the cpc, but I don't have the space at home to have a full cpc set up all the time, nor the hardware to run starkos (i just have a 464 without a monitor) or the will to do it, as I find the workflow with Arkos a lot more comfortable. I use windows (the devil!) and having the posibility of doing music for the cpc so easily is just great.
I just don't get the "if it's for the cpc, then do it on the cpc" thing.
Quote from: McKlain on 10:37, 02 April 13
I just don't get the "if it's for the cpc, then do it on the cpc" thing.
For me, when I am sitting in front of a PC, I cannot imagine that I am sitting in front of a CPC, they are too dissimilar.
Secondly, if you develop software on a PC, it may not work or may work differently or may not look or run the same when run on a real CPC, it just seems easier to guarantee that you get what you want when you develop on a real machine.
It might even be thought of as "cheating" since the tools are more powerful and faster on a PC, which is fine if you are in business, but for a hobby?
You said it. It's a hobby. Do I really need to buy a 6128, find a place to set it up and load starkos (or whatever other tracker you can think of) to make music for the cpc?
Quote from: steve on 13:09, 02 April 13
For me, when I am sitting in front of a PC, I cannot imagine that I am sitting in front of a CPC, they are too dissimilar.
Secondly, if you develop software on a PC, it may not work or may work differently or may not look or run the same when run on a real CPC, it just seems easier to guarantee that you get what you want when you develop on a real machine.
It might even be thought of as "cheating" since the tools are more powerful and faster on a PC, which is fine if you are in business, but for a hobby?
Of course, you should test the results on the real machine, but working on the PC is so much comfortable...
I mean, do what you like, but test it on the real machine. At the end, it's a matter of personal taste...
Quote from: McKlain on 10:37, 02 April 13I just don't get the "if it's for the cpc, then do it on the cpc" thing.
Well, I haven't tried Arkos Tracker, but for what it's worth, I imagine that it does a much better job than most emulators, when it comes to reproducing the CPC's sound.
I have seen/heard a lot of emulators (even including WinAPE) get the volume tables wrong, resulting in my tracks sounding all wrong in WinAPE. (I create all my tracks on my real CPC using STarKos).
Obviously I don't think it's cool that people don't hear my tracks the way I wanted them to sound. But that's not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that some musicians create their music on their PC using an emulator that does it wrong. That's just not good.
Knowing Targhan's musical skills, I am 99.9% sure Arkos Tracker does it correct though. But I can't say since I haven't tried it.
In my opinion, cross platform development is fine. Afterall, I don't develop my JavaME games on my JavaME cellphone. It is fine to use your PC to develop for the CPC, JavaME, Android, whatever. The part that is
NOT fine is
when you don't test on the real machine before releasing!If you do CPC music on the PC, test it on a real CPC before releasing. Does it really sound the way your PC says it does?
Same deal when I do MIDI music for JavaME games. Had to listen how the tracks sounded like on the actual devices, and sometimes change an instrument.
Always test on the real thing! That's it.
As far as I remember, we already have 1 game that was developed using emulator only, and doesn't run on a real CPC: The Eternal Light. We also have a music disc or two that was done using an emulator only. I don't remember which one(s) they are though. But continuing down that path is a terrible mistake. So;
always test on a real CPC. (Did I mention that already?)
Quote from: steve on 13:09, 02 April 13
For me, when I am sitting in front of a PC, I cannot imagine that I am sitting in front of a CPC, they are too dissimilar.
Secondly, if you develop software on a PC, it may not work or may work differently or may not look or run the same when run on a real CPC, it just seems easier to guarantee that you get what you want when you develop on a real machine.
It might even be thought of as "cheating" since the tools are more powerful and faster on a PC, which is fine if you are in business, but for a hobby?
Many companies "back in the day" used other machines to develop CPC games on.
They used PCs, STs, even other 8-bit computers (e.g. Tatung Einstein to develop for cpc).
True, they often had a cable direct to the cpc, and downloaded it onto the cpc. The host system was then used just for writing the code on and storing it on that.
For me, I use PC because I can't have my cpc's out all the time, it is quicker and easier for me to develop on the pc than on the cpc.
I always run the game on cpc before I release it and fix any bugs... and the end product is for cpc...
So for me, I don't develop ON the CPC.. does it matter?
Ah, this thing about "cheating" again. Who cares? We can't pretend we still live in the past with only CPCs and diskmags. Make the use of all the tools that are available to produce the best software. If it still runs on the CPC, who cares how it was created? Using tools that improve efficiency mean that we all get to see more releases that the writer could more easily develop and debug. Would you really prefer to go back to how things were in the past?
I think that we all agree about testing on a real machine before releasing.
When I'm done with a song, I make a tape to test it on my cpc and sample it on the pc to upload the track to my soundcloud account. At least that I can do with my 464.
Quote from: McKlain on 13:12, 02 April 13
You said it. It's a hobby. Do I really need to buy a 6128, find a place to set it up and load starkos (or whatever other tracker you can think of) to make music for the cpc?
No, you don't, I was merely trying to tell you from my own personal opinion why I prefer to use real CPCs, it is not intended to be seen as law.
Quote from: arnoldemu on 13:15, 02 April 13
Many companies "back in the day" used other machines to develop CPC games on.
They used PCs, STs, even other 8-bit computers (e.g. Tatung Einstein to develop for cpc).
True, they often had a cable direct to the cpc, and downloaded it onto the cpc. The host system was then used just for writing the code on and storing it on that.
For me, I use PC because I can't have my cpc's out all the time, it is quicker and easier for me to develop on the pc than on the cpc.
I always run the game on cpc before I release it and fix any bugs... and the end product is for cpc...
So for me, I don't develop ON the CPC.. does it matter?
No, it does not matter, everyone is free to do whatever they want.
Quote from: db6128 on 13:18, 02 April 13
Ah, this thing about "cheating" again. Who cares? We can't pretend we still live in the past with only CPCs and diskmags. Make the use of all the tools that are available to produce the best software. If it still runs on the CPC, who cares how it was created? Using tools that improve efficiency mean that we all get to see more releases that the writer could more easily develop and debug. Would you really prefer to go back to how things were in the past?
I certainly don't care, it was just my personal opinion, but I do like living in the past ;)
Quote from: steve on 13:32, 02 April 13I certainly don't care, it was just my personal opinion, but I do like living in the past ;)
All of which is totally fair, of course. :D It was just when you said this:
Quote from: steve on 13:09, 02 April 13It might even be thought of as "cheating" since the tools are more powerful and faster on a PC, which is fine if you are in business, but for a hobby?
That doesn't say conclusively that you do think it's cheating, but even if it was just a 'some might say', I wanted to disagree with the reasoning behind it. Again, nothing personal: individual users can develop however they want, as variety is the spice of life and all that, but to dismiss one particular style of development as cheating (even hypothetically!) is unfair when all things that lead to quality new productions should be welcomed.
At least personally, I cannot imagine developing the things I've programmed so far on real hardware, having to squint at a monochrome screen with very few characters and, more so, having to endure long waits to recompile and test tiny alterations: if you had any idea of how many iterations I have to go through when debugging, you would be terrified of the prospect of doing that on real hardware! ;) Instead, with WinAPE and its great features, I was able to develop, debug, and test timings and new features almost infinitely faster than I would have been able to on a real CPC. The end result in the case of the Game of Life was something that I was very proud of, that others users responded positively to, and that I hope to resume once I have time and a more usable PC.
At the end of the day, it's verified as working on real hardware, which is the only criterion in my eyes. Anything beyond that is fair game and can only lead to more creative and efficient programming. If some users feel that programming on a real CPC is better – which I can understand from a perspective of mindset, if not efficiency or usability – more power to them. Likewise for anyone else and the way in which they like to work. Just don't dismiss any of said methods as illegitimate.
Everyone is free to do as they wish, my opinions do not matter.
I think it is like a race between two people , one is on foot, the other is in a chauffeur driven limousine, and that is not cheating at all. ;D
Well, the metaphor of a race doesn't really apply as programming is much more like a journey – where the real goal is to reach the destination, and the nature of the travel doesn't matter in the end – so yes, it's completely fair. ::)
Quote from: McKlain on 10:37, 02 April 13
I like making music for the cpc, but I don't have the space at home to have a full cpc set up all the time, nor the hardware to run starkos (i just have a 464 without a monitor) or the will to do it, as I find the workflow with Arkos a lot more comfortable. I use windows (the devil!) and having the posibility of doing music for the cpc so easily is just great.
See, in my room in Munich it's the other way around! I have a real CPC set up there. And I just have no space to put a Desktop there. And PC's do use up a lot of space! So since I have no space for a PC, I would really appreciate if a program that does work for the CPC can also run on a CPC.
Quote from: McKlain on 10:37, 02 April 13
I just don't get the "if it's for the cpc, then do it on the cpc" thing.
That's easy to explain: Why the need of buying a second computer? If it runs on the CPC great! If not, then I have to buy another computer system just to run an applications. So, well, then I will probably just not use it.
But sure, here at work I have my laptop and CPC Emulators and I'm glad that they exist. And of course the Arkos Tracker is also very welcome. :)
Quote from: robcfg on 13:13, 02 April 13
... but working on the PC is so much comfortable...
Dieses ist des Pudels Kern!
I mean this it the point! And this problem has to be changed. If Starkos would be more comfortable than Arkos Tracker then people would use it way more often.
Well I understand McKlain, it will not change things in his case.
Quote from: db6128 on 13:18, 02 April 13
... Would you really prefer to go back to how things were in the past?
Of course!
Quote from: TFM/FS on 20:47, 02 April 13Quote from: robcfg on 13:13, 02 April 13... but working on the PC is so much comfortable...
I mean this it the point! And this problem has to be changed. If Starkos would be more comfortable than Arkos Tracker then people would use it way more often.
Are you really implying that the CPC is fully capable of being as comfortable and capable a working environment as a modern PC? I mean we all love the CPC, but come on; some things just aren't tenable.
Quote from: TFM/FS on 20:47, 02 April 13Quote from: db6128 on 13:18, 02 April 13... Would you really prefer to go back to how things were in the past?
Of course!
Oh, right. Well, respectfully, I've seen how laborious it can be to change your mind about things it's set on, whether they're fully reasonable or not, so I'm not going to try. I've explained the other perspective as far as I can already, anyway.
Apologies for interrupting your theological discussion, but that:
Quote from: SNAFU
db6128: Would you really prefer to go back to how things were in the past?
The Future Man: Of course!
was simply hilarious! :D
Quote from: db6128 on 23:07, 02 April 13
...Are you really implying that the CPC is fully capable of being as comfortable and capable a working environment as a modern PC? ...
How does your PC look like? A keyboard, a screen and a mouse. Right?
So where is the difference to a CPC with Mouse? It's finally minor, it's just software and software can be created.
If I would like to see a Windows environment on the CPC then would have done it, But I don't like windows at all. So I made it comfortable for me. And honestly I enjoy working with my apps on CPC more than any kind of software on PC.
Quote from: TFM/FS on 02:00, 03 April 13
How does your PC look like? A keyboard, a screen and a mouse. Right?
So where is the difference to a CPC with Mouse? It's finally minor, it's just software and software can be created.
Well, apart from the screen resolution and color depth, the filesystem, having dropbox running to make an online backup of every music file I make, etc.
Quote from: TFM/FS on 02:00, 03 April 13
How does your PC look like? A keyboard, a screen and a mouse. Right?
So where is the difference to a CPC with Mouse? It's finally minor, it's just software and software can be created.
The smallest of my terminal windows is the same resolution as the CPC's entire screen. When I'm coding, I usually have 2 of these and a bunch of bigger windows tiled on the same screen.
With the best will in the world, there's no amount of software you can create for the CPC that'll give me that screen real estate, nor a comparable speed of window updates.
Quote from: TFM/FS on 02:00, 03 April 13How does your PC look like? A keyboard, a screen and a mouse. Right?
So where is the difference to a CPC with Mouse? It's finally minor, it's just software and software can be created.
My point was that not all software that can be realised on a modern computer is possible on a CPC, at least not practically. I approve completely of people like you who program things with that goal, but it's not logistically possible to have the two be equivalent in all cases. As the task becomes more complex, the user hits barriers of usability or even, effectively, impossibility – due to speed, space,
etc. Sure, maybe someone could eventually program a way to model planetary trajectories, edit a huge image or video, compose music at CD-quality, and so on... but how much exponentially more time would that take, and is it really worth it just to say you're a purist? Again, use whatever makes the best final product in the most efficient way – which, for some tasks, entails a faster writing environment.
QuoteIf I would like to see a Windows environment on the CPC then would have done it, But I don't like windows at all. So I made it comfortable for me. And honestly I enjoy working with my apps on CPC more than any kind of software on PC.
And that's great! But what I've been trying to do with my recent posts in this thread is to stop people from drawing false parallels between their personal preferences
vs. reality for all users. I think it's great that some people have the enthusiasm to do so much on a CPC, even developing their own software to make it possible like you do, but that neither means that the CPC can do absolutely everything a PC can (at least in a practical sense) or that this way of working is anything except personal opinion.
Quote from: Grim on 01:56, 03 April 13Apologies for interrupting your theological discussion, but that:
Quote from: SNAFUdb6128: Would you really prefer to go back to how things were in the past?
The Future Man: Of course!
was simply hilarious! :D
You read the second line in Bane's voice, right? ;)
Oh, that debate once again :) .
Here are my 2 cents :
- I developed Arkos Tracker mostly because I wanted to get some skills on PC development, especially on C#/.Net. So the CPC vs PC feud wasn't exactly in my head.
- BUT I simply couldn't make a crappy emulation, so indeed, I made it as accurate as possible. Believe me or not, but by sampling a song from the CPC output and comparing the output of the emulated sound on PC, *I* can't make any difference (I may have crappy ears, one might argue), except perhaps a very very slightly "brighter" white noise on the real CPC.
- And as I knew I (or many musicians) wouldn't be satisfied with an emulation (accurate or not), I implemented the CPC-Booster output so that you can have the best of the two worlds.
Now I can tell you something with all honesty, having coded (and used !) both STarKos and Arkos Tracker : I definitely prefer composing a song on the CPC. The mono raw speaker sound is the only thing I trust. I even like the CPC screen better when composing. For artistic stuff, I think the hardware is still the media, I just can't do it without it. However, on the coding side, I have no problem using my latest IDE on PC to code as fast as possible. DAMS is no more powerful enough for what I'm doing (big projects, loads of code generation, and so on). This is doable on CPC of course. It's just no fun, would take a year to code something you'd do in 2 weeks with modern tools. Ultimately, using the tools that don't fit you drains your motivation... (And if I am currently 'out of the CPC business', it's because of a lack of time, not a lack of motivation.)
Trg.Aks
Quote from: McKlain on 08:59, 03 April 13
Well, apart from the screen resolution and color depth, the filesystem, having dropbox running to make an online backup of every music file I make, etc.
Right, and that's really not worth to mention, except the backup box. But therefore we have (hard- and/or)discs on CPC.
Quote from: ralferoo on 09:09, 03 April 13
The smallest of my terminal windows is the same resolution as the CPC's entire screen. When I'm coding, I usually have 2 of these and a bunch of bigger windows tiled on the same screen.
Ok, I can use a big screen with my CPC and work with up to about 100 characters in line and 32 lines. But WTF does it bring to me? I work with one app at one time. And then I can switch to the next app. Easy on CPC! And I don't have to search the correct window like you have to do on a PC.
Now about your great resoluton on your PC. Where is the gain of super-resolution and characters of a size nobody can read without a microscope.
My clear statement here is: THANKS, BUT NO THANKS!
Quote from: ralferoo on 09:09, 03 April 13
With the best will in the world, there's no amount of software you can create for the CPC that'll give me that screen real estate, nor a comparable speed of window updates.
HAHAHA!!! Ok, that's a good one. You can't be serious. The software can of course be made on CPC, but nobody started it all yet. Others and me did proove it true thought.
And updates... that's hilarious! Updates on the PC take minutes, much time. On the CPC I never need an update BECAUSE THE CPC JUST WORKS FINE (no PC does though! Else you wouldn't need an update).
In case you talk about an update of the OS, so tell me how long it takes to install a new version of Linux or Windows. My FutureOS (hate it - I give a shit!) need only seconds for intallation and it's fully automatic.
All your super resolution, super sound and super CPU power on the PC side are no gain, because you have to work with small windows and your software is just slower than on a CPC (Compare Word and Protext).
@Targhan: Agree with our post. And it's really true a lot of time get's wasted on CPC for creating pretty special tools which may be part of an IDE on PC side already. Time is the bottle neck...
Quote from: Targhan on 17:05, 03 April 13
Oh, that debate once again :) .
Argument put very well.
I agree.
You seem to be just looking at how YOU like to work and not how OTHERS might like to work.
OK, it's great that you like to use a screen with 100x32 characters and swap the entire screen between apps. Nobody is trying to stop you doing that.
My coding setup is to have 80x25 + 80x30 + 100x40 + 100x15 windows that allow me to write my code, keep an eye on the serial output, keep an eye on IRC and have a command window for compiling. Also, the font size is much bigger (I think it's 10x18) allowing nice smooth fonts and I certainly don't need a microscope to read it - if anything the characters are bigger than mode 2 characters on my CTM. I don't have any problems finding the windows, because they're always in the same place and it's just a matter of glancing left or right, up or down.
Nobody can write software to support such a screen display on the CPC, because the hardware doesn't support a resolution that high. So I choose to use a PC for development and transfer across to the CPC because I find it a more comfortable working environment. Actually, for a large chunk of what I want to do (FPGA synthesis) it wouldn't even be possible to run that on the CPC anyway!
The wonderful thing about this world is we can all make choices about what we want to use. It's nice if you want to develop entirely on the CPC and there are plenty of people who like that option - I noticed Hicks used a CPC based editor and assembler, but equally it's nice that we have the option of using PCs to create CPC code too.
You can tell me I'm wrong all you like, but the reality is just that I have different preferences to you.
For the record, I use my CPC to code for all other platforms in the world.
I wrote all my Linux utilities on my CPC, because I'm pro cross-platform development.
True story.
I stopped using my cpc in 1994.
Since 1994 you love it, right?
Before it felt so used...
Now all I have is a nice memory of past times.
Quote from: ralferoo on 09:22, 04 April 13
My coding setup is to have 80x25 + 80x30 + 100x40 + 100x15 windows that ...
Nobody can write software to support such a screen display on the CPC...
Well, where's the problem: 100 characters ain't no problem, 40 lines ain't no problem.
Quote from: ralferoo on 09:22, 04 April 13
You seem to be just looking at how YOU like to work and not how OTHERS might like to work.
Hahaha! You state this and then you write a page about how YOU DO IT. Ok why not, but then I have the same right and I have been first :laugh:
And now you and everybody who gave you a like: Cool down and relax! 8)
You totally dodged the argument by saying that it's no problem. Thus actually proving ralferoo's point: it's no problem for you to work like that, but – as indicated by your lack of any evidence – it's not possible to recreate his preferred environment on a CPC.
And making out that every person who doesn't agree with your still unproven claims have emotions clouding their judgement is another tactic of avoiding putting forward a real response to what anyone has said.
Stop doing obtuse acrobatics to avoid the debate. You can say you just don't want to have it, but making out like you're winning while providing no evidence in response... doesn't work.
Some guys go nitpicking and some have visions 8)
And your evidence... I don't want always to talk about my prods so, take a look at BF and the Green-Screen part - I guess this has even enought letters for you. And don't argue the screen it too small. Get a bigger one. And don't complain for the money, you luckily spend it for PC! And new please back to topic!!!
Seriously, what a stupid, STUPID argument. Each to his own. There's no correct. No wrong. There's just each dev's way, and if it works for them, everyone should be happy.
Please cut it - isn't this thread about Arkos?
Interesting that Arkos tracker was written as an exercise in C#. (Woop, topic back).
Yeah, and Targhan did it perfect!
I have some SFX made in Arkos Tracker. When you go to the instruments tab and press the 'Test Area' C3 button they sound as they should.
However, when I try to play them on the CPC, they sound muffled and at a much lower pitch. Anyone know what's going wrong...?
I have exported them to 'SFX only' binary. I then initialise the SFX player by doing this:
ld de,SFXMusicAddress ; Arkos Player
call PLY_SFX_Init
ld de,SFXMusicAddress
CALL PLY_Init
Then in the 50hz loop I do this:
call PLY_Play
When I want to play a SFX, I'm doing this:
ld a,1 ; channel
ld l,1 ; sfx number
ld h,&f ; volume
ld e,0 ; note
ld d,0 ; speed
ld bc,0 ; pitch
call PLY_SFX_Play
Well, you need to tell the player that it must play a "C3" note so that the effects play as they should.
Quote from: McKlain on 12:09, 29 April 13
Well, you need to tell the player that it must play a "C3" note so that the effects play as they should.
How?
In the "note" value of the assembler code that you posted. Right now it's zero but it should be something else. Try 35.
Quote from: McKlain on 12:12, 29 April 13
In the "note" value of the assembler code that you posted. Right now it's zero but it should be something else. Try 35.
Yay!
36 on the CPC was the nearest sounding to the PC Arkos Tracker sound.
Thanks McKlain.
You are welcome. ;D
I was just guessing: 12 notes per octave, starting at note 0 and octave 0 = 12*3-1
Quote from: redbox on 12:10, 29 April 13
How?
That seems Mcklain is right :
From R-Type source (sfx_table.asm) , you can find it on R-Type website.
(note little "s" stands for sharp)
note_C EQU 0
note_Cs EQU 1
note_D EQU 2
note_Ds EQU 3
note_E EQU 4
note_F EQU 5
note_Fs EQU 6
note_G EQU 7
note_Gs EQU 8
note_A EQU 9
note_As EQU 10
note_B EQU 11So to compute correct value : value=note+(octave*12)
Quote from: fano on 12:44, 29 April 13
So to compute correct value : value=note+(octave*12)
That's a handy table, thanks fano.
I noticed I have the notes next to the SFX so I can use this to calculate the pitch :)
Quote from: fano on 12:44, 29 April 13
From R-Type source (sfx_table.asm) , you can find it on R-Type website.
Where??? :)
Removed from the homepage, as it was a Christmas gift.
I never put it on the Free Stuff page, as I doen't receive feedback about that... :D
So, the link is now hidden...
But stay working, sure: Happy Xmas Cpc!!! (http://www.rtype.fr/Free_Stuff_files/R-Type_128K_card.zip)
Thank you sooooo much!!!!!
I was looking for the Arkos Tracker and the links on the cpcwiki don't work Arkos Tracker - CPCWiki (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Arkos_Tracker) . I got it from this page: Arkos webpages (http://www.julien-nevo.com/arkos/) Is the homepage of Arkos Tracker temporally down? Or it has found a new home? :)
Merry Xmas to you, too, TotO!!! But the server seems to be down?
The redirection of cpcscene doesn't work anymore. I contacter the guy in charge of doing it, but no news since (I'll try again soon). In the meantime, here is the link:
documentations:software:arkos.tracker:start [Grimware] (http://www.grimware.org/doku.php/documentations/software/arkos.tracker/start)
Trg.Aks
Thanks for the link. The manual will be very helpful :)
Great work! ¿Are the sources available? I would like to make an Archlinux package, but I cannot find them...
Hi, Arkos Tracker 1 and 2 are closed-sources. I will make AT2 open source one day, but not now.